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Grading The Winslow Deal


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All the Plain Dealer writers seem to like it. Tampa Bay online likes it from their side. This guy gives the Browns the edge and I feel his point in the end is right.

 

It all depends on Winslow's health over the next few years. If healthy, then the Bucs did the better deal assuming they can work with his (well known tough and overbearing) agent. It's a long shot the Browns can get an equal talent to a healthy K2 with these draft picks. However, if his injury pattern continues, then the Browns drew the long straw.

 

Even if he is healthy in upcoming years AND a long term deal can be worked out, it goes against the facts known at this point in time.

 

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Grading The Deal: Browns Deal Winslow To Bucs

 

After a highly disappointing season, and with a new regime in town, it was no secret that the Browns wanted to make some significant roster changes this offseason.

 

General manager George Kokinis, along with new head coach Eric Mangini, made a splash through a pretty unconventional route on Friday.

 

On the first day of free agency in the NFL, Cleveland found a taker for troublesome tight end Kellen Winslow, who has battled both injury and ego problems in his brief five-year career.

 

Cleveland shipped Winslow to Tampa Bay, another club undergoing sizable changes, in exchange for a few undisclosed draft picks.

 

The trade solved a few problems for the Browns, who suspended Winslow for a short time last season over a squabble with the front office on how his staph infection was handled. Prior to the deal, Cleveland had just four draft picks and an outspoken tight end.

 

Now they have more draft picks to build for the future, and won’t have to put out fires when Winslow speaks his mind.

 

What has been lost in all his injury and happiness issues during his tenure with the Browns is that he’s among the most talented players in the league at his position. He was a Pro Bowler in 2007 after catching 82 passes for 1,106 yards in a season that many felt as though signified that both Winslow and his teammates had arrived.

 

After missing all but two games in his first two seasons, he played in just ten contests in 2008 and the Browns reverted to their losing ways.

 

His request for a contract extension, a desire that Cleveland wasn’t willing to accommodate him with, appeared to put a nail in the coffin.

 

When healthy, Winslow is a proven commodity. That’s the only issue with his deal, which leaves Cleveland with Steve Heiden (32) and Martin Rucker (23) at tight end. Heiden is aging, and Rucker had just two receptions last season, his first in the NFL. Unless a move is made, Derek Anderson (or whoever is throwing passes for the Browns) will have to rely heavily on Braylon Edwards and, gulp, Donte Stallworth at least until Rucker gains a little more experience.

 

Assuming Cleveland receives a similar package to what the Giants got from the Saints for Jeremy Shockey last summer -- second and fifth round picks -- the Browns accomplished a number of goals with one calculated move.

 

Grade for Browns: B+

 

The Buccaneers, who counted on three tight ends last season, immediately receive an upgrade at the position and add a safety value for Luke McCown, or, as in the case of the Browns, whoever happens to be their starting quarterback come September.

 

Jerramy Stevens, Alex Smith and John Gilmore combined to catch 72 passes for 794 yards and six touchdowns in 2008. When healthy, Winslow is capable of more than that on his own.

 

The acquisition of Winslow means they’ll likely let Stevens walk as a free agent, while leaving Smith and Gilmore as very capable backups, or injury replacements, behind their new starting tight end.

 

Tampa Bay didn’t have any extra picks to deal, so they’ll be short on selections in the draft, but it would have been hard for them to grab a tight end of Winslow’s caliber with no pick higher than 19th.

 

With that said, as a team looking to undergo substantial changes themselves, holding onto those picks (once again, under the assumptions they are in the neighborhood of a second and fifth-rounder) would have been productive as well.

 

Losing those picks will hurt twice as badly if Winslow continues to have issues staying healthy.

 

Grade for Buccaneers: B-

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I think it can be way in our favor.

 

Having the #50 pick allows us to do some other things with our 1st pick and 1st pick in round two.

 

It just brings way more players in to the mix and reduces the need to draft for need out of desperation.

 

Now, in round 1...Crabtree could be in the mix....one of the O tackles...D-line..

 

Round 2.....guys like Matthews might be around....but at the later pick....Mckenzie is a backer I watch...good centers will be around...a top back...

 

This is a strong draft in the 2nd round...we can get some players. If we can dump Edwards and or DA...we are going to get some decent picks.

 

I am liking what I see.

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I think it can be way in our favor.

 

Having the #50 pick allows us to do some other things with our 1st pick and 1st pick in round two.

 

It just brings way more players in to the mix and reduces the need to draft for need out of desperation.

 

Now, in round 1...Crabtree could be in the mix....one of the O tackles...D-line..

 

Round 2.....guys like Matthews might be around....but at the later pick....Mckenzie is a backer I watch...good centers will be around...a top back...

 

This is a strong draft in the 2nd round...we can get some players. If we can dump Edwards and or DA...we are going to get some decent picks.

 

I am liking what I see.

 

 

AMEN! When I heard about this trade at work yesterday, I just about jumped out of my chair. I grade it an "A" for the Browns. TB will be lucky to get 2 full, productive, & healthy years out of Winslow. He is 26 years old ONLY in a chronological sense. We made a good trade while there was still value there.

Mike

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I give the browns the edge however it still depends on what mankok does with the 2nd round pick this year.. if they land us a player that turns out to be gifted and develops into or instantly becomes a guy that helps the team and lasts longer then kw2 will then mankok gets a decisive victory..in my mind the jury is still out until the draft..

 

KW2 was our best hands guy and should help TB out immensely as a hybrid but in all honesty k2 probably never had a real defined role in a plain vanilla mangini offense as they like blocking TEs that can also catch...hahaha we dont have any of those unless you count heiden whom due to age cant take heavy abuse for to long..

 

I was steaming mad at first when i had heard we got a 3rd and 7th after it was comfirmed a 2nd and 5th i consider it a win/win trade that definately favors the browns unless mankok blows our draft..

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No doubt. If we draft some 255lb nose tackle out of Furman, it probably isn't going to be a good deal.

 

We draft a 315 lb guard out of Wisconsin who plays for 10 years, it will probably be viewed as a great deal, especially considering we did have Winslow through are probably going to be his most productive years.

 

If Winslow manages 4-5 more top seasons, it starts to swing to the bad again.

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No doubt. If we draft some 255lb nose tackle out of Furman, it probably isn't going to be a good deal.

 

We draft a 315 lb guard out of Wisconsin who plays for 10 years, it will probably be viewed as a great deal, especially considering we did have Winslow through are probably going to be his most productive years.

 

If Winslow manages 4-5 more top seasons, it starts to swing to the bad again.

 

Kellen has anywhere from no season to 3 seasons in form at best..due to his knee he could be knocked out forever in any given game or get a season ending injury at anytime as long as our pick is still playing well in 5 years we still get a great deal and if mankok gets a useful 5th next year it sweetens the pot...;)

 

Kw2 didnt look overly happy in his interview that he was traded of course our second rd pick likely isnt going to be to happy when he discovers hes been sentenced to serve in cleveland! hehehe ;)

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A second and a fifth is whole lot better than the third and 7th originally reported ... but now we have no tight end. Don't fool yourselves about the guys on the roster.

 

But here is the interesting part of the article:

 

 

Unless a move is made, Derek Anderson (or whoever is throwing passes for the Browns) will have to rely heavily on Braylon Edwards and, gulp, Donte Stallworth at least until Rucker gains a little more experience.

 

They default DA as the starter and don't even mention Quinn by name? Hmm.

 

Zombo

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Kellen has anywhere from no season to 3 seasons in form at best..

 

 

I tend to agree for the reasons you mention, but I don't read tea leaves or have a reliable crystal ball, so I just threw out how it could go to lessen the deal.

 

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A second and a fifth is whole lot better than the third and 7th originally reported ... but now we have no tight end. Don't fool yourselves about the guys on the roster.

 

But here is the interesting part of the article:

 

 

 

 

They default DA as the starter and don't even mention Quinn by name? Hmm.

 

Zombo

 

On the flip side, Kellen didn't mention DA's name. He said, "I enjoyed my time in Cleveland. I enjoyed playing with (pause) Braylon Edwards, (pause) Brady Quinn."

 

-Al

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How does Alex Mack grab you guys for a Round 2 selection? You think Heiden is old, well, Fraley is his grandpa. We need to continue to infuse this offensive line with talented youth to protect Quinn.

 

We certainly need help on defense and there is no doubt in my mind that two of those first three picks will go that direction. But Mangini's track record shows his love for lineman on both sides of the ball in the draft (Ferguson, Mangold, Robertson) and I'm feeling Alex Mack from Cal.

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Noticed that too. Has the PD been given the smoke screen/flare gun orders also, or do they really think Quinn is the best back-up in the league?

 

 

The wording was misleading. That isn't a grading written by the PD.

 

It was written by: Andrew Perna , Deputy Editor of RealGM.com

 

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How does Alex Mack grab you guys for a Round 2 selection? You think Heiden is old, well, Fraley is his grandpa. We need to continue to infuse this offensive line with talented youth to protect Quinn.

 

We certainly need help on defense and there is no doubt in my mind that two of those first three picks will go that direction. But Mangini's track record shows his love for lineman on both sides of the ball in the draft (Ferguson, Mangold, Robertson) and I'm feeling Alex Mack from Cal.

 

I like Eric Wood. He's more brutish than the other guys at the top (Mack and Max Unger). Mike Mayock's knock on Mack is that he "spends too much time on the ground." That worries me when it comes to drafting a Center for the AFC North.

 

Theres not much at TE in free agency, anyone we could pick up in the draft?

 

Brandon Pettigrew is one those old school TEs that can block and catch. He may not be utterly spectacular at either skill, but he is very solid at both. He's mid-late 1st round material. Buffalo may give him a look at #11, but I don't see him getting past Atlanta at #24. Oddly enough, nfldraftsite.com has him being selected by Tampa with the #50 pick...

 

Other than Pettigrew, TE is pretty thin in this year's draft.

 

-Al

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I like Eric Wood. He's more brutish than the other guys at the top (Mack and Max Unger). Mike Mayock's knock on Mack is that he "spends too much time on the ground." That worries me when it comes to drafting a Center for the AFC North.

 

 

 

Brandon Pettigrew is one those old school TEs that can block and catch. He may not be utterly spectacular at either skill, but he is very solid at both. He's mid-late 1st round material. Buffalo may give him a look at #11, but I don't see him getting past Atlanta at #24. Oddly enough, nfldraftsite.com has him being selected by Tampa with the #50 pick...

 

Other than Pettigrew, TE is pretty thin in this year's draft.

 

-Al

 

LOL that is funny. 50th pick.

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How does Alex Mack grab you guys for a Round 2 selection?

 

 

That would be a great 2nd round pick. There are 3-4 good centers in this draft, and all fall in that 2nd round range.

 

Mack, Ungar, The guy from Arkansas...can't think of the name at the moment...

 

I think there is a good chance we take a center with one of those 2nd round picks as they would have to be near the top of the board.

 

Solid talent at the center position this year.

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Geech,

 

Good stuff. Seems like you've researched the eligible centers somewhat.

 

The key word there being "somewhat."

 

It all depends on what you're willing to sacrifice. The "complete player" is a tag reserved for guys like Jerry Rice and Michael Jordan.

 

If you want a genius, then Alex Mack (6'4" 311) is the way to go. He won the Draddy Award (the scholastic equivalent of the Heisman), but he has a tendency to play too high and doesn't drive block all that well, especially in short yardage situations.

 

Eric Wood (6'4" 310) can improve in his drive blocking abilities against bigger DTs (who can't?), but he's at least decent, and has the potential to improve. He doesn't have the quickest feet and may have trouble with NFL speed rushing DTs, who aren't a dime a dozen, anyways. He's a good technician who uses his feet and hands to position himself well to go along with some of that brutishness.

 

Max Unger (6'5" 309) is a fantastic technician with good quickness, but doesn't rely on size and strength to get the job done.

 

These guys are all within 1 inch and 2 pounds of each other, but are very different players.

 

Antoine Caldwell (6'3" 309) is probably the next best after the top 3, but he's all brute with no quickness and not much between the ears, although he did make the line calls. He may be a better fit at OG.

 

I'll throw in A.Q. Shipley (6'1" 304) for good measure. He's a bowling ball of a former NT who will battle against the whole defense if given the chance. His footwork is adequate, but his lack of size and arm length may mean he'll be most effective in a zone scheme.

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The key word there being "somewhat."

 

It all depends on what you're willing to sacrifice. The "complete player" is a tag reserved for guys like Jerry Rice and Michael Jordan.

 

If you want a genius, then Alex Mack (6'4" 311) is the way to go. He won the Draddy Award (the scholastic equivalent of the Heisman), but he has a tendency to play too high and doesn't drive block all that well, especially in short yardage situations.

 

Eric Wood (6'4" 310) can improve in his drive blocking abilities against bigger DTs (who can't?), but he's at least decent, and has the potential to improve. He doesn't have the quickest feet and may have trouble with NFL speed rushing DTs, who aren't a dime a dozen, anyways. He's a good technician who uses his feet and hands to position himself well to go along with some of that brutishness.

 

Max Unger (6'5" 309) is a fantastic technician with good quickness, but doesn't rely on size and strength to get the job done.

 

These guys are all within 1 inch and 2 pounds of each other, but are very different players.

 

Antoine Caldwell (6'3" 309) is probably the next best after the top 3, but he's all brute with no quickness and not much between the ears, although he did make the line calls. He may be a better fit at OG.

 

I'll throw in A.Q. Shipley (6'1" 304) for good measure. He's a bowling ball of a former NT who will battle against the whole defense if given the chance. His footwork is adequate, but his lack of size and arm length may mean he'll be most effective in a zone scheme.

 

http://walterfootball.com/draft2009C.php

 

Jonathan Luigs as well, with a draft this deep in centers i wouldn't mind taking one in the 3rd, possibly even 4th if one slips...

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The key word there being "somewhat."

 

It all depends on what you're willing to sacrifice. The "complete player" is a tag reserved for guys like Jerry Rice and Michael Jordan.

 

If you want a genius, then Alex Mack (6'4" 311) is the way to go. He won the Draddy Award (the scholastic equivalent of the Heisman), but he has a tendency to play too high and doesn't drive block all that well, especially in short yardage situations.

 

Eric Wood (6'4" 310) can improve in his drive blocking abilities against bigger DTs (who can't?), but he's at least decent, and has the potential to improve. He doesn't have the quickest feet and may have trouble with NFL speed rushing DTs, who aren't a dime a dozen, anyways. He's a good technician who uses his feet and hands to position himself well to go along with some of that brutishness.

 

Max Unger (6'5" 309) is a fantastic technician with good quickness, but doesn't rely on size and strength to get the job done.

 

These guys are all within 1 inch and 2 pounds of each other, but are very different players.

 

Antoine Caldwell (6'3" 309) is probably the next best after the top 3, but he's all brute with no quickness and not much between the ears, although he did make the line calls. He may be a better fit at OG.

 

I'll throw in A.Q. Shipley (6'1" 304) for good measure. He's a bowling ball of a former NT who will battle against the whole defense if given the chance. His footwork is adequate, but his lack of size and arm length may mean he'll be most effective in a zone scheme.

 

If the Browns' regime doesn't see that much of a difference among these guys then #50 is probably where we'll see them grab one out of this group. But that's assuming we don't add any more picks before the draft (don't move away from the phone, D.A.).

 

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Johnathon Luigs (6'4") is another guy who has good quickness and technique, but doesn't rely on strength to get the job done.

 

That is why I think Wood is our best bet. As WalterFootball stated in their 5/26/08 note, "You're getting a rock at center if you draft Eric Wood."

 

-Al

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How could getting a 2nd round pick for a player that has played only 44 games in 5 years and scored all of 11 Touchdowns in that time be nothing less than a complete steal?!

 

The Brown's pulled off a really great move here.

 

If Winslow's name was "Joe Smith" Cleveland fans would be dancing in the streets over this deal.....But then again, if K2's name was "Joe Smith" you probably couldn't have talked Tampa into it.

It's nothing but name recognition that makes people think K2 is something more than he is.

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