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Is the personal really the problem with CLE's 3-4


Guest Masters

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Guest Masters

Just a thought I had. We complain about how guys on CLE's D aren't performing, and aren't successful in the 3-4. Even to the point of saying Savage isn't supplying the players one can be successful with in the 3-4. Then I started thinking about the Chargers. When Wade Philips was their DC, Merriman missed games (injury and suspension), along with other guys. Yet they never really seemed to miss much of a beat. You remove Philips and suddenly their D gets worse with each year, yet loaded w/ obvious talent (or what seemed to be when Philips was running it). Did all their players forget how to play with success in the 3-4? SD turned into a middle of the pack team against the rush, last in the league againt the pass (that's right, with Jammer and Cromartie as their starting DBs, they are last), have 3 more sacks than CLE as a D, and 2 more picks than CLE.

 

My though train (which of course is no gospil) is that a team that has the personal for a successful 3-4 went from great to pedestrian by simply removing the DC and changing HCs. So how do we really know that the players are the problem. If CLE plugged in a better HC (along with DC) that CLE's D and personal wouldn't suddenly look good in the 3-4?

 

Not saying they would, but it is some food for thought.

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Just a thought I had. We complain about how guys on CLE's D aren't performing, and aren't successful in the 3-4. Even to the point of saying Savage isn't supplying the players one can be successful with in the 3-4. Then I started thinking about the Chargers. When Wade Philips was their DC, Merriman missed games (injury and suspension), along with other guys. Yet they never really seemed to miss much of a beat. .

 

Good topic Masters! Great stuff in our other discussion about Savage - you, Fooleeze and JABDF did a nice job of making me rethink some things a little. Sometimes I need that!

 

In any event, Wade Phillips is alot like RAC in the sense that they've done reputable jobs as DCs when they've had some REAL good talent to coach up. Neither seem to be thought of as ideal Head Coaches. San Diego is 4-6 without Merriman. Nobody really has to game plan for his replacement or know where he is at all times if you will. They're strong on the nose and seem to be fast to the football.

 

I know when we ran a 3-4 in the 80s we had an All Pro NT, as Rogers looks to be today. The difference is I don't see a Mike Johnson, Clay Matthews, Chips Banks or Eddie Johnson. IMO, you HAVE to have better LBing than we've seen from our 4 LBers. I don't see better play on the edge or from our 3-4 DTs. Our defense ranked #1 in the conference the year we went 12-4.

 

When I saw Daniel Graham's TD reception the other night - the replay showed atrocious tackling by 3 of our defenders so you're right about COACHING but that doesn't excuse guys that have made it this far. They're pros. I expect MORE from an ILBer like D'Qwell. When I see other ILBers in this league - they hit with a shoulder keeping their head UP - driving through the man and simultaneously wrapping with their arms. That one run where the 5th string RB ran around our left side - Wimbley was wrapped around his shoulders and you could see the slow FB turned RB dragging him 9 yards on better leverage than the tackler. And even if RAC's staff can't coach him up better than that - I'll guarantee Andrews at FSU taught Wimbley better. We have to make these guys somewhat accountable. Willie looked like the ONLY guy that was hungry to tackle anyone the other night.

 

The way Rogers is playing - our ILBers should be alot better than they are showing. Andra Davis got a huge raise a couple years ago and he wasn't ANY better with the last staff. Leon Williams got benched numerous times at Miami not because of his intensity because he seemed to lack discipline and SMARTS. That said, I feel he's MORE out to prove himself than Andra Davis is. Willie looked good the other night in spite of his age. I think Hall can give us every bit of production that Peek was capable of.

 

This past Summer when I was talking about Davon Holly being very underrated. We MISS that kid in our secondary. He showed me ideal closing speed and an ability to stay on the hip. He was also good at using the sideline. That injury hurts us more than people realize. RAC should have called time out on that 1 play when McDonald recognized an unsound alignment we had. BUT since that did NOT happen, I think McDonald should have tackled the kid within the first 5 yards but hindsight is 20/20. Still, let's compare 5 -10 yard holding penalty or 6 points? A professional should know this when COLLEGE kids know this.

 

All this said, before the Thursday Night disaster on defense - they showed some degree of improvement like we saw vrs the Giants & Jax. When I think about the Balt games - 3 of their TDs came from DA INTs.

 

I'd like to see a better pass rush and I REALLY wish our ILBers could blitz better on the X-stunts. I can't tell you how many times I've seen RBs or FBs stopping D'Qwell dead in his tracks. I've even seen him planted on his fanny. Alot of your productive 3-4s in history have had LBers that could get to the QB or even INT passers. Ray Lewis gets ALOT of INTs and I think he scored on us in the 2nd game last year as well as the first game this year. T Suggs scored on us intercepting a screen. That's not ALL coaches doing that I mean some of these guys had pass rushing skills in college. Suggs had 22 sacks and did anyone ever see LT's All American films at NC? Wimbley never looked like LT at FSU. He really only had 1 good season of fulltime starting. That said, he was BETTER as a rookie than any season he had at FSU. His personal best in college was 10 sack - I think. Doublecheck that Masters.

 

I haven't LIKED our Houston Texans version of the passive 3-4 so YES coaching is a big part of our problem. Our blitz schemes lack innovation. Rogers should create an inside blitz paradise if we have the RIGHT ILBers AND scheme. It really is both. I'm looking forward to Beau Bell getting healthy enough for reps. It's not that D'Qwell doesn't try - I just see him more as a Wali Rainer type than a Zach Thomas type of ILBer. The talent of our LBers needs to improve where coaching, innovation have to tag team with talent. I don't think we've done a good enough job of either.

- Tom F. (It would be ideal if all we had to do was change our coach and presto - these LBers are killing people because that would be such an easy fix. That's why I think we try to convince ourselves sometimes it's JUST coaching. I think it's both though)

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Excellent Response, Flugel. Hats off to you, you're a good dude. You say a lot of what I've been feeling for a while. About why Wimbley is struggling. . . some coach should have taken him under his wings and just made him flourish. It seems like they were impressed with what he did as a rookie, and felt nothing else needed to be done.

 

Why does it seem every D player we bring in can't tackle, yet every D player that ends up in Pittsburgh, or Baltimore somehow is able to just maul players. I really feel like it's the coaching, they're not pushing the tackling fundamentals, they're not demanding aggressive play from the defenders, more a passive approach.

 

Hmmm. . . passive play from players coached by a passive coach? Interesting.

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Nice topic guys!

I think our defenses demise is mostly a coaching/playcalling issue not that our linebackers are great tacklers or ballhawks because they are not but in the denver game with a 13 point lead our defensive playcaller instead of pinning denvers ears back chose to rush only 3 and 4 imho this type of gutless defensive playcalling has cost us the last 2 games...

 

I really believe this team needs a new head coach and the entire current staff needs to be completely replaced as well because our existing coaching talent pool is really bad we need a total fresh start and even then we need the right guy lerner has never demonstrated he is capable of hiring the right guy to coach and thats pretty scary in and of itself...

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Guest Masters

I am with you JADBF. Chud has done what he can to tailor the O around DAs strengths, then again around Quinn against DEN. X's and O's from him have been fine. It's the execution that has been a problem.

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chud needs to stay. his playcalling is getting better and his schemes are solid. he made DA's monster year last year and has quinn off to a good start. he's the only good coach we have.

 

our blitzes are effing terrible. they're obvious, basic and ineffective. also, it hurts us tremendously that wimbley's a little bitch. 3-4 LBs need speed and strength. wimbley couldn't tackle ki-jana carter. all he does is overpursue and run himself out of the play. i wanted us to draft ngata that year. good thing we got a 6th round pick and kam instead.

 

ultimately, though, the schemes are the problem. wimbley's sack against denver was a well-schemed blitz. it confused the offense and let a man come free. however, those schemes are few and far between with tucker. most of the time, it's the same idiot corner and safety blitzes that every offensive lineman has known how to pick up since high school.

 

i think tucker's past as a DB coach really hurts him. he doesn't know how to get the most out of our linebackers and it shows. yes, they're a disappointing group overall, but i think their production is largely tied to how they're being misused. i've seen a lot more DB blitzes than LB blitzes and that's no way to run a winning 3-4.

 

as much as i dislike wimbley, he, hall and d'qwell should be enough to have at least a decent pass rush instead of the abortion we constantly trot out onto the field. even leon williams could be put into better positions to get to the QB. davis simply doesn't have the speed anymore. he barely did when he was younger. now that he's older, there's no way he can do his job. mcginest has looked surprisingly resurgent. i wanted him gone earlier this year. he's surprised me more than anyone other than d'qwell and hall.

 

where does this leave us? tucker's got to go. he's a good, maybe better than good, DB coach. but he's plain terrible as a DC, particularly when running romeo's brand of the 3-4. we need to throw tons of cash at dick lebeau and get him to be our DC. he's the best. it's why pittsburgh linebackers rarely are great on other teams. his system is simply the best. taking him from pittsburgh would simultaneously fortify our D while stripping theirs of its identity. no one is as good as lebeau. his schemes and playcalling are both frighteningly good. yes, pittsburgh lost. but they're 6-3. we're 3-6, a 3-6 that could easily be 5-4 with a better DC.

 

also, switching to the 4-3 isn't the answer. we run a 4-3 line half the time right now and that's a huge part of our problem. we need that deception to help us create pressure and a 4-man line tells the offense exactly where the rush is coming from.

 

yes, i want to model our D after the steelers. i like how they play. more than that, i like that they win. i want to win. but i want to win in orange and brown, not black and gold.

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the only difference between the two towns is pittsburgh's winning tradition. might money be enough to bring him in? what else can we offer? give him some stake in MBNA. i don't know. get some 12-year-old thai hookers. anything to get lebeau.

 

seriously, has anyone even tried to lure him out of pittsburgh?

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Guest Masters

I hope you don't mean Dick Leau as HC. Dude is in his 70's now. Not to mention he was like RAC when he was a head coach (mind you it wasy Cincy). Dude is a great DC and I'd love to have him as CLEs DC, but not as HC.

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Guest Masters
But one thing they are is loyal to the coaches they like. And that earns them loyalty from those coaches. The actual cities have nothing to do with it. Lebeau will not leave the Steelers just for money.

 

Well, except Russ Grimm.

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Guest Masters
Grimm wanted to be a HC. I don't think Lebeau wants that.

 

I was just trying to be funny there icon_e_biggrin.gif He left with sand in his vagina because he wanted that HC job and PIT didn't give it to him.

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definitely only as DC. it's what he's good at. i remember him in cinci. terrible head coach, just putrid.

 

what would it take to get him here, then? yes, money's not the only thing. a contract in perpetuity, like a tim wakefield-style deal? i'd hand that to him. he can coach as long as he can think. the man's the stephen hawking of the 3-4 defense.

 

if i'm randy lerner, i call him and ask him what it'll take. make him a godfather offer.

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Guest Masters

It would take the Steelers letting him out of his current contract (or even to talk to teams). Which means CLE would have to offer a position higher than he has now.

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unfortunately, i bet you're right. with the success the steelers have had in the past 15 years, there's no motivation to leave them for any reason whatsoever.

 

i just want lebeau as my DC so badly. the steelers are easily my favorite defense to watch.

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The scheme doesn't matter. When we went to the 3-4 with RAC, most of the guys here creamed their jeans because we were finally going to stop the run. That was the answer. They argued that all the great run stuffing D's were 3-4.

 

When that didn't work, they argued that the 3-4 really needs a big run stuffing NT to stop the run. Oops. That hasn't worked either.

 

Guys, the schemes don't matter. The Browns show all kinds of different looks anyways. 3-4, 2-5, 4-3. They're all dogshit. What matters is havings leadership on the field and on the sidelines. It wouldn't hurt to throw in a bone shattering athlete once every 10 years too.

 

If you brought Cowher in here with the condition that he had to run a 4-3, you know what? He'd do it and win. He'd figure it out. He'd make it work. That's what good coaches do.

 

If you brought Lawrence Taylor (in his prime) in here, he'd play any position that you asked him to. He'd be in the face of any player that he thought wasn't pulling his weight (not to embarass him- to get him going). That's what good players do.

 

i miss the old days.

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Guest Ghoolie
Just a thought I had. We complain about how guys on CLE's D aren't performing, and aren't successful in the 3-4. Even to the point of saying Savage isn't supplying the players one can be successful with in the 3-4. Then I started thinking about the Chargers. When Wade Philips was their DC, Merriman missed games (injury and suspension), along with other guys. Yet they never really seemed to miss much of a beat. You remove Philips and suddenly their D gets worse with each year, yet loaded w/ obvious talent (or what seemed to be when Philips was running it). Did all their players forget how to play with success in the 3-4? SD turned into a middle of the pack team against the rush, last in the league againt the pass (that's right, with Jammer and Cromartie as their starting DBs, they are last), have 3 more sacks than CLE as a D, and 2 more picks than CLE.

 

My though train (which of course is no gospil) is that a team that has the personal for a successful 3-4 went from great to pedestrian by simply removing the DC and changing HCs. So how do we really know that the players are the problem. If CLE plugged in a better HC (along with DC) that CLE's D and personal wouldn't suddenly look good in the 3-4?

 

Not saying they would, but it is some food for thought.

 

The Browns players are not the problem. Phil Sewage is the world's greatest judge of talent. The problem is simple, these other teams score too many damned points and it is causing us to lose.

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Guest Masters
Just a thought I had. We complain about how guys on CLE's D aren't performing, and aren't successful in the 3-4. Even to the point of saying Savage isn't supplying the players one can be successful with in the 3-4. Then I started thinking about the Chargers. When Wade Philips was their DC, Merriman missed games (injury and suspension), along with other guys. Yet they never really seemed to miss much of a beat. You remove Philips and suddenly their D gets worse with each year, yet loaded w/ obvious talent (or what seemed to be when Philips was running it). Did all their players forget how to play with success in the 3-4? SD turned into a middle of the pack team against the rush, last in the league againt the pass (that's right, with Jammer and Cromartie as their starting DBs, they are last), have 3 more sacks than CLE as a D, and 2 more picks than CLE.

 

My though train (which of course is no gospil) is that a team that has the personal for a successful 3-4 went from great to pedestrian by simply removing the DC and changing HCs. So how do we really know that the players are the problem. If CLE plugged in a better HC (along with DC) that CLE's D and personal wouldn't suddenly look good in the 3-4?

 

Not saying they would, but it is some food for thought.

 

The Browns players are not the problem. Phil Sewage is the world's greatest judge of talent. The problem is simple, these other teams score too many damned points and it is causing us to lose.

 

Explain how at times they can stop teams? The guys on the field are not lacking talent. There a guys lacking heart and a whole bunch lacking coaching.

 

Why to skip over the meat of the analogy and focus on just laying shots at the oranization. All is well in the world for you know ghoolie. You can go back to taking free shots at the team and being able to never discuss them, cause there is always a "willie green" for you to pick at.

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