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Tired of these free-agent signings...


Guest mz.

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break the bank to sign suggs. a dominant pass rusher with experience in the 3-4 and 4-3? back the truck up to his house.

Well said

 

I understand that this is the pervasive feeling around here, and I certainly do not wish to call these posters out, though the second dude (the guy not named after a golf ball icon_lol.gif) has a sketchy-ass name.

 

BUT would it hurt to maybe invest some time into the draft instead of "breaking the bank" in free agency every damn offseason? For every Rogers, there are countless Stallworths, C. Williams, Bentleys, Baxters, McGinnests, Ted Washingtons, Andre Risons etc. Hey Phil, use the draft. You can get Lamarr Woodleys in the 2nd round instead of giving up the pick for Corey Williams and the zillion $ he commanded. Plus, you get a stud pass-rusher.

 

We're NO BETTER than the Al Davises and Dan Snyders or the world at this point, and its sickening.

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savage has used the draft and fairly well, too. however, if there are stud players available, why wouldn't you want them on your team? and if throwing money at them is what it's gonna take, why not do it?

 

re: my name: i'm jewish and italian. it's been my nickname for 10 years. it's part of my identity and i'd ask you to not denigrate it, please, without knowing me.

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savage has used the draft and fairly well, too.

 

Really? Name 5 guys Savage drafted who are PRODUCTIVE members of this team. Or guys who would start on many other teams.

 

Quinn (for 1 game), Edwards, Joe Thomas, D'Quell? Wimbley??? Starts getting very very ugly after that....

 

if there are stud players available, why wouldn't you want them on your team? and if throwing money at them is what it's gonna take, why not do it?

 

Because our track record is so damn awful. Name a couple free-agents we have "backed the truck" up to recently who have panned out. Then give me the list of the washouts.

 

re: my name: i'm jewish and italian. it's been my nickname for 10 years. it's part of my identity and i'd ask you to not denigrate it, please, without knowing me.

 

Not denigrating your name, it could just be construed as, well, whatever...back to football.

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Guest Masters
BUT would it hurt to maybe invest some time into the draft instead of "breaking the bank" in free agency every damn offseason? For every Rogers, there are countless Stallworths, C. Williams, Bentleys, Baxters, McGinnests, Ted Washingtons, Andre Risons etc. Hey Phil, use the draft. You can get Lamarr Woodleys in the 2nd round instead of giving up the pick for Corey Williams and the zillion $ he commanded. Plus, you get a stud pass-rusher.

 

We're NO BETTER than the Al Davises and Dan Snyders or the world at this point, and its sickening.

 

Lamarr Woodley was drafted in 2007 by PIT (so that second rounder wasn't for C. Williams). In theory Phil gave up Woodley for Brady Quinn (gave up 2007 2nd rounder and 2008 first for him).

 

Plus C. Williams deal is just like DAs. Can get rid of him after this year if they want, with little impact. Let's also keep in mind its his first year in a 3-4 and DE in a 3-4 are there to take up space/OL, not make sacks. To truly judge him fairly in the 3-4, you'd have to give him a second year in it (unless film showed him never getting it, which I don't think has been the case).

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Guest Masters
savage has used the draft and fairly well, too.

 

Really? Name 5 guys Savage drafted who are PRODUCTIVE members of this team. Or guys who would start on many other teams.

 

Quinn (for 1 game), Edwards, Joe Thomas, D'Quell? Wimbley??? Starts getting very very ugly after that....

 

Quinn, Thomas, Edwards, Pool, E. Wright, B. McDonald (though likely a nickle back), Wimbley, Jackson, and Vickers (that's 9, wi maybe 2-3 as questionable). Not to mention Harrison who would be seeing more time on any team with half a brain.

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vickers, eric wright and brodney pool are all solid picks that can start anywhere. he got harrison in the 5th in 2006. mcdonald in the 5th in 2007. yes, mcdonald got torched last week. every DB has bad games/he's in his 2nd year. an excuse? it is. dude's still a decent player, though. steptoe in the 7th was a decent choice. not every draft pick can be a stud. some have to be role players.

 

that being said, savage's 2005 draft was awful. after pool in the 2nd, it's a list of complete washout crap. at least he didn't trade up for alex smith like i wanted him to.

 

baxter? injuries. bentley? injuries. stallworth? injuries/he's a whiny bitch who can't play through being hurt. corey williams? injuries/learning a new position. aside from stallworth, none of those 4 had injury problems before coming to cleveland. luck? maybe. or maybe we need better strength and conditioning coaches.

 

broke the bank for steinbach and he's a great guard. not the strongest, but a great pass blocker and more than adequate in the run game and a big reason our offense is as good as it's been.

 

has he had some bad luck? yes. has he made some bad calls? yes (wilson and frye leap immediately to mind). however, he's assembled more talent than any other GM in the new browns' history and part of that has been through free agency and trades. i'll build a winning team any way i can.

 

last, sorry about the nickname thing. i got banned from another board after my first post because it was my user name. it's frustrating: i love the name but i guess it just doesn't read well in the vacuum of cyberspace. frustrating.

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Lamarr Woodley was drafted in 2007 by PIT (so that second rounder wasn't for C. Williams). In theory Phil gave up Woodley for Brady Quinn (gave up 2007 2nd rounder and 2008 first for him).

 

Plus C. Williams deal is just like DAs. Can get rid of him after this year if they want, with little impact. Let's also keep in mind its his first year in a 3-4 and DE in a 3-4 are there to take up space/OL, not make sacks. To truly judge him fairly in the 3-4, you'd have to give him a second year in it (unless film showed him never getting it, which I don't think has been the case).

 

Woodley was just an example of what we could get in round two, instead of giving up picks.

 

And I understand we can let Williams go with little impact, but we don't get that 2nd rounder back. That's the killer. I'm all for giving him the benefit of the doubt in year 2, but my optimism is tempered.

 

Quinn, Thomas, Edwards, Pool, E. Wright, B. McDonald (though likely a nickle back), Wimbley, Jackson, and Vickers (that's 9, wi maybe 2-3 as questionable). Not to mention Harrison who would be seeing more time on any team with half a brain.

 

Pool, Wright, McDonald, and Wimbley need to show me a heckuva lot more before I call them "successes." So I'd add Vickers to that list.

 

I'd like to see more Harrison, too, like the rest of us...

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broke the bank for steinbach and he's a great guard.

 

Agreed. But my point is' date=' for whatever reason (injury etc) it just doesn't seem to hit as often as it misses, that's all.[/quote']

 

last' date=' sorry about the nickname thing. i got banned from another board after my first post because it was my user name. it's frustrating: i love the name but i guess it just doesn't read well in the vacuum of cyberspace. frustrating.[/quote']

 

It's all good. Reading the Political Discussion board here as often as I do, you'd see why some would be concerned icon_lol.gif

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Guest Masters
Quinn, Thomas, Edwards, Pool, E. Wright, B. McDonald (though likely a nickle back), Wimbley, Jackson, and Vickers (that's 9, wi maybe 2-3 as questionable). Not to mention Harrison who would be seeing more time on any team with half a brain.

 

Pool, Wright, McDonald, and Wimbley need to show me a heckuva lot more before I call them "successes." So I'd add Vickers to that list.

 

I'd like to see more Harrison, too, like the rest of us...

 

I'm just saying, any one of those guys would be still starting for a good number of teams in the NFL. That was your original question after all icon_e_biggrin.gif

 

No doubt McDonald and Wimbley need to show more. Wright showed plenty last year starting right away and this years play. Pool, the same thing. That dude came in a rookie and had to be thrown in the slot, where he had success. But dude gets concusions like he's Eric Lindros. That doesn't help him at all.

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Guest Masters
re: my name: i'm jewish and italian. it's been my nickname for 10 years. it's part of my identity and i'd ask you to not denigrate it, please, without knowing me.

 

Funny thing is, from the first time I read you name I just asumed you were Jewish and Italian. Made sense to me.

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That was your original question after all icon_e_biggrin.gif

 

Stickler! icon_lol.gif

 

Anyhow, we have close to a full arsenal of draft picks this season...let's see if Phil can't make himself useful.

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Guest Masters
That was your original question after all icon_e_biggrin.gif

 

Stickler! icon_lol.gif

 

Anyhow, we have close to a full arsenal of draft picks this season...let's see if Phil can't make himself useful.

 

Someone has to be icon_lol.gif

 

I think Phil will do as well as 2007 and 2006. This of course is asuming CLE doesn't blow everything up and start over like some are calling for (and football knoledgeless Lerner might knee jerk react to).

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Guest Aloysius
Lamarr Woodley was drafted in 2007 by PIT (so that second rounder wasn't for C. Williams). In theory Phil gave up Woodley for Brady Quinn (gave up 2007 2nd rounder and 2008 first for him).
As I remember it, part of the rationale for giving up a 2nd for Williams was that Phil didn't like the DL talent expected to be available at pick #56.

 

To a certain extent, he's been vindicated. The 49ers took Kentwan Balmer in the 1st Round, and he's been very disappointing thus far. And Dre Moore, a guy many of us really liked, couldn't even make the Bucs' 53 man roster.

 

However, it's also the case that Parcells drafted Kendall Langford early in Round 3, and he's been good enough to start at LDE for them. So I think part of the rationale for trading that pick was that we needed veterans to win now, which obviously hasn't happened.

 

Also, I wonder whether the Corey Williams trade would have happened if the Shaun Rogers trade had been arranged earlier.

Plus C. Williams deal is just like DAs. Can get rid of him after this year if they want, with little impact.
Except giving up a 2nd Round pick and $16.3M in guaranteed money.

 

By the way, Corey's roster bonus in the spring is $6M, larger than either DA or Stallworth's.

Let's also keep in mind its his first year in a 3-4 and DE in a 3-4 are there to take up space/OL, not make sacks. To truly judge him fairly in the 3-4, you'd have to give him a second year in it (unless film showed him never getting it, which I don't think has been the case).
This is true, though I think the sacks argument gets overplayed a little bit.

 

And while Williams may be a good 3-4 DE next year, young Kendall Langford should improve even more & be significantly cheaper.

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injuries aren't a GM's fault, though. it's only his job to put the talent on the field. it's then the coaching staff's job to make them better and keep them healthy.

 

i agree that the draft is definitely the best way to build a team and that trading picks year after year is a horrible idea and wipes out your team's long-term potency. i'm still mad about trading a pick to get hubbard. what an awful decision.

 

free agency is an integral part of today's NFL, though. and when players like suggs come along, guys who can dominate and change the course of an entire game, it's my philosophy that they're worth pursuing. you can't do it all the time, but sometimes you need to. i think this is one of those times. there just aren't a lot of guys who can get to the QB, and right now we don't have any.

 

rogers can't carry the D by himself forever.

 

@diehard: buffy? huh?

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re: my name: i'm jewish and italian. it's been my nickname for 10 years. it's part of my identity and i'd ask you to not denigrate it, please, without knowing me.

 

Funny thing is, from the first time I read you name I just asumed you were Jewish and Italian. Made sense to me.

 

Spell it Judago and maybe you wont have as much trouble.

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injuries aren't a GM's fault, though. it's only his job to put the talent on the field. it's then the coaching staff's job to make them better and keep them healthy.

 

i agree that the draft is definitely the best way to build a team and that trading picks year after year is a horrible idea and wipes out your team's long-term potency. i'm still mad about trading a pick to get hubbard. what an awful decision.

 

free agency is an integral part of today's NFL, though. and when players like suggs come along, guys who can dominate and change the course of an entire game, it's my philosophy that they're worth pursuing. you can't do it all the time, but sometimes you need to. i think this is one of those times. there just aren't a lot of guys who can get to the QB, and right now we don't have any.

 

rogers can't carry the D by himself forever.

 

@diehard: buffy? huh?

 

 

My daughter used to watch "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" which occurred in SunnyDale, CA. icon_lol.gif

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Guest Masters
Except giving up a 2nd Round pick and $16.3M in guaranteed money.

 

By the way, Corey's roster bonus in the spring is $6M, larger than either DA or Stallworth's.

This is true, though I think the sacks argument gets overplayed a little bit.

 

And while Williams may be a good 3-4 DE next year, young Kendall Langford should improve even more & be significantly cheaper.

 

Second rounder, yes. But you kind of covered some of the rational already.

 

16.3M guaranteed, if CLE hasn't given him that money yet, it ain't guaranteed. Just like part of DA's guaranteed money was performance bonuses (that he won't reach) and that 5M roster bonus that he doesn't see if he is cut.

 

Yeah, he was over paid, but when you put in perspective of what guy like Kelly in OAK and a few other guys got, it's not that bad. Langford got a 20.5M 5 year deal as an total unknown comodity in the NFL. 18M less but with more unknown.

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Yeah, he was over paid, but when you put in perspective of what guy like Kelly in OAK and a few other guys got, it's not that bad.

 

We cannot point to what Al Davis does and say "Savage wasn't as bad as he was." We just cannot.

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Guest Masters
i'm still mad about trading a pick to get hubbard. what an awful decision.

 

I am not saying it was a good move, but that's a guy you won't know for 2-3 years if it will pan out. He just started playing football a couple of years ago. WRs that late are development guys.

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@ die hard: no shit. great movie, so-so show. david boreanz (angel) is great on bones.

 

@ masters: "hands of stone" guys are always like that. michael jackson, travis wilson, even braylon. guys that drop balls always drop balls, but you can teach someone how to get open.

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Guest Masters
Yeah, he was over paid, but when you put in perspective of what guy like Kelly in OAK and a few other guys got, it's not that bad.

 

We cannot point to what Al Davis does and say "Savage wasn't as bad as he was." We just cannot.

 

Just noting a giant contract out there this offseason. I could use Tommie Harris at 4 year $40M for the Bears who has missed two games, has less tackles than Williams or Langford, and has the same number of sacks as Langford. All I am saying is it's all relative.

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Guest Aloysius
Second rounder, yes. But you kind of covered some of the rational already.

 

16.3M guaranteed, if CLE hasn't given him that money yet, it ain't guaranteed. Just like part of DA's guaranteed money was performance bonuses (that he won't reach) and that 5M roster bonus that he doesn't see if he is cut.

Not sure you're 100% right on that. Anyway, Williams' $6.5M signing bonus definitely isn't coming back.
Yeah, he was over paid, but when you put in perspective of what guy like Kelly in OAK and a few other guys got, it's not that bad. Langford got a 20.5M 5 year deal as an total unknown comodity in the NFL. 18M less but with more unknown.
As someone already said, Al Davis is crazy.

 

And those aren't Kendall Langford's contract numbers. They're Randy Starks', who's become a nice rotational player on Miami's 3-4 DL.

 

Langford's contract numbers weren't released. But Kevin Smith, who went two picks ahead of him, received a 3 year, $1.79M deal. Instead of a $6.5M signing bonus, Smith received $649K.

 

So Langford would have been much cheaper. Or we could have brought in Langford & Randy Starks, which would have also provided better depth at a lower price.

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Guest Masters
@ die hard: no shit. great movie, so-so show. david boreanz (angel) is great on bones.

 

@ masters: "hands of stone" guys are always like that. michael jackson, travis wilson, even braylon. guys that drop balls always drop balls, but you can teach someone how to get open.

 

I'd debate that a bit. Only in Jackson, Wilson, and Edwards are guys that have been playing and being coached since HS or earlier. They've shown they can't learn or don't listen. With Hubbard, you're talking about a dude that has been only playing or being coached to play WR since 2 years ago. So he's not exactly been taught the fundementals of playing WR (how to truly catch, turn for balls, etc.). Not saying he won't still fall under the same catagory of those other guys, but the jury is out on him.

 

Oh, and TO used to drop a but ton of balls, Moss too. For some guys it's concentration. Like how BE can make the rediculously hard catch but drop the easy. Put's focus on the hard and goes brain dead on the easy. I am like that with pool. Can make a rediculous hard shot time and time again, yet muff a ball sitting in front of a pocket. I get lax on the fundimentals on the easy stuff.

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while it's true that hubbard may just need coaching, i don't trust this staff at all to give it to him. and TO still drops tons of balls. some guys never learn. the sideline catch that hubbard made in the preseason was impressive, though.

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Guest Masters
Second rounder, yes. But you kind of covered some of the rational already.

 

16.3M guaranteed, if CLE hasn't given him that money yet, it ain't guaranteed. Just like part of DA's guaranteed money was performance bonuses (that he won't reach) and that 5M roster bonus that he doesn't see if he is cut.

Not sure you're 100% right on that. Anyway, Williams' $6.5M signing bonus definitely isn't coming back.
Yeah, he was over paid, but when you put in perspective of what guy like Kelly in OAK and a few other guys got, it's not that bad. Langford got a 20.5M 5 year deal as an total unknown comodity in the NFL. 18M less but with more unknown.
As someone already said, Al Davis is crazy.

 

And those aren't Kendall Langford's contract numbers. They're Randy Starks', who's become a nice rotational player on Miami's 3-4 DL.

 

Langford's contract numbers weren't released. But Kevin Smith, who went two picks ahead of him, received a 3 year, $1.79M deal. Instead of a $6.5M signing bonus, Smith received $649K.

 

So Langford would have been much cheaper. Or we could have brought in Langford & Randy Starks, which would have also provided better depth at a lower price.

 

That's how it works. Basically in one of the DA threads I break down his and Williams is the same setup. But that 6.5M ain't coming back or his salary for this year.

 

See my other note on the Kelly contract example. All relative.

 

My bad. What I can find for Langford is he 295K in salary and 782K in signing bonus money, spread out over this year.

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Guest Masters
while it's true that hubbard may just need coaching, i don't trust this staff at all to give it to him. and TO still drops tons of balls. some guys never learn. the sideline catch that hubbard made in the preseason was impressive, though.

 

Oh trusting this coaching staff is a whole other story...lol

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So Langford would have been much cheaper. Or we could have brought in Langford & Randy Starks, which would have also provided better depth at a lower price.

 

This is EXACTLY why the Dolphins are already ahead of us in "rebuilding" efforts. They understand how to build from the ground up, instead of plugging in high-priced free agent du jour and hope he pans out.

 

Parcells >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Savage. Well duh.

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So Langford would have been much cheaper. Or we could have brought in Langford & Randy Starks, which would have also provided better depth at a lower price.

 

This is EXACTLY why the Dolphins are already ahead of us in "rebuilding" efforts. They understand how to build from the ground up, instead of plugging in high-priced free agent du jour and hope he pans out.

 

Parcells >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Savage. Well duh.

 

Miami found gold when Favre agreed to play for the Jets and Pennington fell into their laps.

 

Now they can focus on key elements of the team without worrying about a QB - at least not right away.

 

Policy and Company blew it when they didn't take the Ditka trade and, instead, drafted Couch (and like Stan said - Johnson, Abdullah and all the other incremental pick stiffs).

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