crunchy

Just a good solid draft according to pre-draft rankings. We addressed needed positions and didn't reach. We also gave Baker lots of help and plugged holes in the defense. Can't ask for much more! 

Lol, B for Wills

11 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Brilliant draft? Yes This one? Yes Really? Yes

Thank you, come again

This is the best ever, I did not think he'd ever leave NE. Now I have 3 things to cheer for:

1. Browns SB win

2. NE to do better than they did last year with Brady

3. For Brady to fail miserably and do worse than Winston

Brady has a ton more receiving talent in TB, but not his system he's been in his whole career, no Belichick and his cameras to tell him what to do, no holding o-line that never gets called, and no NE ref advantage. He's going to be terrible. I bet he gets "injured" halfway thru the season and retires. 

NE will roll to an 11 or 12 win season with Rutgers' backup QB and win a playoff game or two before being crushed by the Browns. 

1 hour ago, gumby73 said:

Fuc$ St. Brady ☘️... they have been blowing his messiah balls for a 12 hour TV marathon...              

More like a 20 year marathon... 

Just now, The Gipper said:

 I know.  But how many times is a Joe Montana followed by a Steve Young;   or a Brett Favre followed by an Aaron Rodgers?  And they would need that sort of thing to continue to win big. 

Not if I'm right. They would need any old QB, even, say, a 6th rounder with barely any experience and a terrible combine 😜

On 1/15/2020 at 8:01 AM, Gunz41 said:

I don't think that proves you right. I mean does it mean that Joe Montana wasn't any good because Steve Young won after? 

For you to be right, BB would have to go to SB 45% of the years remaining he coaches. And win the SB in 30% of years remaining. Anything less wouldn't that be the opposite side?

So anything less than an exact replica of the past 20 years won't convince you. It looks like you've got your mind made up! 

On 1/14/2020 at 2:31 PM, The Gipper said:

You won't be right. 

Well, we'll have to wait and see

2 hours ago, Gunz41 said:

Actually you just proved an opposite point. When the Colts tanked, it obviously wasn't because of how important Peyton was, as he never played another snap for Colts. They tanked for LUCK.

Yes, they were making their 1st starts, but all but Jacoby had been in the system for years. So them being aloof about it has no validity.

So your premise is that BB has been cheating since he started winning, even after being caught and having more of an eye on him? And I guess you are of the mindset that Patriots are the only ones "cheating"?

How did they cheat down 28-3? Or why didn't the cheating work against the Eagles? Or why didn't he cheat to best the lowly Dolphins with a BYE on the line? Or better yet on Browns topic, did BB cheat the 1 year he had a good record in Cleveland?

But let's go with this premise of the 7%. How do you know that is sustainable? And yes 20 games is a large sample size of games, but in comparison its 6% of the games played by TB12. Which is less than the 7% you want to use to make a point. As for Brady being the reason they won that game/etc., he was the starter so he is credited with that win. As for the 10-5 record of Cassel, here is the teams they beat (Jets: 4-12; 49ers: 5-11; Broncos: 7-9; Rams: 2-14; Bills: 7-9 (2); Dolphins: 11-5; Seahawks: 4-12; Raiders: 4-12; Cardinals: 9-7)

And just the previous season (with close to same roster) TB had went 16-0, the offense scored 589 points, had a +315 in point differential, Brady threw 4806 yards 50 TDs, Moss had 23 TD. 

The next year, 11-5, 410 points, a point differential of 101, Cassel 3693 yards 21 TDs, Moss 11 TDs.

So using the example you used (Cassel 2008) and compared to Brady the year before: Brady +6 (or even use 5 as Cassel "winning" game 1) wins, Brady +1113 yards (about 70 yards a game), Brady +29 TDs (1.8 TDs more), and Patriots (+11.2 PPG, and +13.4 margin).

Sure seems that the Patriots missed TB12 that year. 

 

I don't think we're going to convince each other, I guess we'll have to see what happens when Brady finally leaves. If I'm right, as long as BB is still the coach they'll be a SB contender. 

22 hours ago, Gunz41 said:

If you are going to try and prove a point or call someone out, try to use facts and not lies.

2008: Brady was credited with that 1st win as the starter, so Cassel was 10-5. But Matt was drafted in 2005, so he was NOT A ROOKIE.

The 4 game suspension was in 2016, 2 games by Jimmy G and 2 by Jacoby Brissett 

Jimmy G: was drafted in 2014, again NOT A ROOKIE.

Jacoby B: was a rookie 

That leaves the last game that was in 2001, and the other QB was Drew Bledsoe who TB12 replaced as the starter, so he obviously wasn't a rookie. So that makes 2 out of 20 games. A whopping 90% were NOT ROOKIES.

Secondly, nobody EVER said that BB had nothing to do with it, but you are saying that BB made TB12. Statistics show that to be completely false. As BB has a sub .500 record when not utilizing TB12. 

And using the year without Manning is trying to skew the narrative, as you know just as well as others that they were tanking. And it also doesn't correlate to the situation in NE. I can come up with countless examples of things like that which could indicate that a subpar player is "better" than a great player based solely on the use of 1 statistical data point. By one prime example, is by data that Emmitt Smith was basically the ENTIRE reason why Aikman won games, since Troy went 0-11 without Emmitt his rookie year. 

And though it wasn't in reply to me, you also are referencing BB making TB12 according to his "talent". Again BB entire record without TB is sub .500 so that argument doesn't hold water. For you argument to work, then he should have been able to take Bledsoe to GOAT with more talent. Or any of the other countless QBs hes had. Not even to mention that BB is a DEFENSIVE guy. Or are you trying to assert that BB is the end all be all and he coaches everyone individually.

As for saying it wasn't a big enough sample size, it really isn't. It doesn't show if he could have SUSTAINED success without TB12. History shows that he couldn't. 

Since that day that BB wanted to move on with Jimmy, TB has won 2 SB, been to another where he threw for 505 yards, scored the most points ever for a SB loser (35). 

I suspect that you are just trolling or just hate Brady that much. 

The truth of the matter is that even with the past evidence of BB failures without TB12, that BOTH deserve a lot of credit. And if BB wants to prove that he can win one without TB and vice versa, what does it say if NEITHER win 1 without the other? Does that mean that someone else was responsible for the dynasty? 

You're right, Cassel and Jimmy weren't actually rookies, I was wrong about that. 

Cassel was still starting his first game at QB since high school and went 11-5. Brady was hurt in the 1st quarter, he clearly didn't win them that game.

Even though they weren't rookies, they were all 1st time NFL starters, and Cassel never even started in college at QB. And the team only won 7% less. Brady's not that important to the team's success. 

To say the Colts were tanking only helps my argument. That means that Manning was so important to the team they knew they had no chance without him and scuttled their whole season. The Pats knew Brady wasn't that important to them and kept trying to win, and they had a great record. 

As for BB having a sub-500 record without Brady, that's because he never won anything before he started filming in 2001. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Brady OR BB are any good. BB started winning when he started cheating, that's already been proven. Brady is just along for the ride. All the players on the Pats are successful because they all benefit from BB's cheating. Brady just gets the most credit because he's the QB and been there the whole time. 

So yes, someone else was responsible for the dynasty. That would be the cheating. 

And no, I'm not trolling, I really believe this. Imagine that BB was caught cheating and proved to be a fraud, by filming and stealing playsheets. Wait, that already happened in 2007. And they let him stay in the league because to invalidate his wins would erode public trust in the league, which would cost them money. It would mean the owners had overseen a fraudlent organization. 

I don't hate Brady, he's just the beneficiary of BB's cheating. I do hate BB for cheating. 

On 1/5/2020 at 11:37 AM, The Gipper said:

Sure....like I said, he would have good teams,  occasional playoff teams.  Not championship teams.  

He can coach a defense, and he can be a good HC.   Brady made him a Champion. 

Or...are you going to say:   Well, even if Tom Brady leaves, the Pats coached by BB will still be the odds on favorite to win the Super Bowl..or at least the AFC. 

If so...then I would refer you to the words of  that musical group from the Boston area who call themselves Aerosmith:   Dream On.

They wouldn't be the odds on SB favorite because a lot of people think Brady was really important,. But I bet Belichick would win another without Brady and it wouldn't take too long. He's been waiting forever for Brady to go so he can prove he's the reason they win so much. The only reason Brady has been there the last few seasons is Kraft taking a break from handos to force Belichick to trade Jimmy and keep Brady. Brady didn't put Belichick over the top, Belichick carried Brady to a career his talent doesn't deserve in the least. No arm strength, no improvisational skill, no downfield accuracy. He's good at one thing: doing whatever Bill says, exactly how he says it. 

On 1/5/2020 at 8:04 PM, Gunz41 said:

In my opinion, to reference a 20 game sample to indicate that BB is THE reason that NE is great is asinine.

That year of Cassel, although a good record resulted in no playoffs.

14-6 is 70%. Respectable for sure, better than most.

249-75 including playoffs. Or .769. And if you want to go Regular season, that is 219-64. Which is .774. And that is 30-11 in the playoffs, which is a .732 in the playoffs, you know against the best teams in the league. Which is 3.2% higher record than without. 

To say TB12 isn't/wasn't a big reason for the Patriots success is ridiculous. Brady has more than TWICE the number of playoff wins than ANY quarterback not named Montana. And Joe is 1 win above above twice. 

20 games is a significant sample size considering a season is only 16 games. People always say 'they didn't make the playoffs' but that was a statistical fluke. They're the only 11-5 team to miss since the playoffs went to 6 teams in 1990. 

When Brady came back the next year they won 1 LESS game and MADE the playoffs. 

According to the math the Patriots have won 7% more with Brady than a random replacement. And these were all ROOKIE replacements. Brady is only worth 7% more than a random rookie replacement? And this is with him having the benefit of years and years of experience playing with the team and the same coach and system the whole time while the rookies came in cold. That makes it way more favorable for Brady and he still does only 7% better. You made my case for me! 

For contrast, the Colts with Manning won 68% and the year without him won 14%. You may think Brady is a good qb but to credit him for team success over Belichick simply isn't born out by the facts. 

On 1/5/2020 at 6:47 PM, Tour2ma said:

Just copied the part you got right...

Individually they are not talented, but as a unit the whole is much greater than the sum of the parts.

Every OL who engages a defender without throwing on them holds on every play... it's just a matter of whether they do it right. And right is defined by two things:

1. Their hands are inside the frame of the defender, and
2. The instant the defender tries to pull away they let go.

The second is the hardest thing to teach, but if you emphasize it in every practice and each individual learns that either one of his fellow OL will be there to cover for him, then they learn. Just need the right teacher.... and that's where Scarnecci comes in.

During his brief retirement Offensive Holding calls more than doubled. League average is around 23 per team per season and varies very little season to season. Pats had 30 in 2016 tying then for 3rd most (so much for conspiracy theories)... just finished with a 2nd best 13 this season.

3 things:

A: All NFL o-linemen know how to block properly and every NFL o-line coach knows how to teach that most basic o-line skill. To suggest that only Scarnecchia does is silly. 

B: 2016 was the only season from 2009 when the Pats were anywhere close to the top of the league in offensive holding. Picking one season out of 12 doesn't disprove they don't get away with holding a lot. Also, 2016 was the year Scarnecchia returned, so there goes that theory that he's some sort of master blocking teacher. 

😄C-The stat doesn't tell us if it's o-linemen holding or someone further down the field. The Pats run a ton of screens, quick outs, and dump offs and their skill players get called for holding too. Also, the number of holding calls don't tell us how many more were MISSED or just not called. 

I stand by my previous statement, the Pats o-line gets away with a ton of holding. 

3 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Yet you can't name one of of his OL and ones that leave NE in FA... think Nate Solder... more often than not flop for their new teams. Why is that? 

Because they're not actually good, they just never get called for holding because they play for the Pats. How many times have you seen Brady standing there forever and no one can get near him? And how many holding calls does his o-line get? Zero. Yet when they leave NE they turn into regular linemen. Must be a coincidence... 

8 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

I could surmise that without Brady,   BB would be basically the same coach that he was in Cleveland.   Playoff contender (at least occasionally)...not championship caliber.

Except that when Brady has been out they've gone 14-6, and that was with 3 rookie qbs completely new to the system. When Cassel played for them and they went 11-5 he hadn't started a game at QB since high school. Belichode went 11-5 with a high school qb. And when Brady came back the next year they went 10-6. It's always been Belichick. 

Conversely, when the Colts lost Manning they went from 10-6 to 2-14. There's the difference between a qb who matters and a qb who doesn't. 

13 hours ago, Orion said:

 

Let's face the cold, hard truth here.  We, as Browns fans, are basically screwed until the Haslam family is removed from ownership of the team.  And on that front there seems to be NO light at the end of the tunnel.  -  We have a meddling blind squirrel running the organization.........

Agree 1000%. Getting Baker a 3rd head coach in 3 years is a recipe for failure. Jimmy is a kid playing with a shiny toy and he has no idea how it works, he just keeps breaking it. 

Hopefully a homeless dude will tell him to sell the team and problem solved 

2 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Patriots Aufed.    Tom Brady a free agent...  could he return?   Could the  Offensive brain trust of the Pats for almost the last 20 years be a done deal?   Brady/McDaniels?   

Stay tuned. 

It won't matter if Brady leaves and McDaniels gets hired by some moron to HC. As long as NE has Belicrap and their film crew they'll win lots of games. 

2 hours ago, Adoug319 said:

Call me crazy, but Tony Romo hinted it and I’ve felt the same way. Josh McDaniels is a northeast Ohio guy, went to John Carroll. He’s been interested in coaching the Browns for years, we just never gave him an interview. Now we are, and according to sources the Haslams want him, so the job is his if he wants it. 

 

You heard Romo, Brady isn’t done. But he’s done with the Patriots, and is an unrestricted free agent. What did Tony Romo day? He needs help... Hmmm two 1,000 yard receivers and two Top 5 running backs sounds like help to me.

McDaniels wanted Baker in the draft. In fact, he was lobbying to trade up to #2 in the 2018 draft if we didn’t take Baker. His offense is complex though, and Baker needs to mature.

In comes Tom Brady for one more year with McDaniels, while Baker learns the offense.

 

Call me crazy, just watch.

 

 

Okay, you're crazy. McDaniels is less than nothing without Belicheat and his cameras, and also is a piece of crap who bailed on the Colts - luckily for them - after accepting their HC job. Who would want him besides two of the dumbest owners in the league, Jim 'pills are my life' Irsay and Jim 'felony fraud, steelers #1 fan' Haslam. 

Also, why would anyone want a washed-up 43 year old QB who's only played in one place with one system for one coach his entire career? If he leaves NE, where he sucked this year, it's not going to go well for him. 

10 minutes ago, MDDawg said:

When they were unsalvageable, he’d cut his own: Callaway, Whitehead and Corbett. Productive players who weren’t his guys were inactivated or dispensed of otherwise.

 

This is why we're screwed. The new gm will get rid of a bunch of good players just because they're not HIS guys. The only one safe is Garrett. If Baker is shipped out or they draft his replacement and undermine him, it will be 10x as dumb as firing Dorsey

So idiotic, why would we go for a rebuild after our two best seasons with young players on the come up? Haslam is intentionally sabotaging the team or he's the biggest moron in history

22 hours ago, mjp28 said:

Joe Burrow...the next Tom Brady...

The most overrated qb, nay, player, in any sport, ever, propped up by the cheatingest coach in history?

The media will blow him for two decades while all the fans will hate him for being a complete fraud?

He'll get all credit for team success while the real strength was the defense and running game (but mostly cameras)?

He won't be touched without getting a roughing the passer call and regularly get bailed out of 3rd down incompletions by phantom holds and PIs? And he'll still cry more to the refs than any qb not named Rivers? 

95% of his passes will be short crossing patterns to a tiny white receiver who sucks and dump offs to his rb? He'll be unable to throw farther than 45 yards? 

His own fans will constantly call him the goat and crap on qbs who are actually good because they're pathetically insecure and deep down they know he's a sham? 

And finally, even after 'winning' more than any player ever, setting a bunch of records, and being married to a supermodel, he still won't look happy, the best he can manage is a pained smile? 

Nah, I don't think he'll be the next Tom Brady. Probably more like some schlub like Peyton or Rodgers 😎, you know, someone who's good at throwing and can improvise. 

Also, I forgot that Brady has more time to throw than any qb ever, his o-line never gets called for holding, and he still just dumps it off. 

2 hours ago, mjp28 said:

But they still are the favorites not underdogs by a 2:1 margin.  

I do know how it works, I've been doing this for just over 50 years now.  

Haha, fair enough 🙃

On 12/25/2019 at 9:32 PM, mjp28 said:

And the po' BROWNS just how many games counting the next one were they the favorites? Would you believe 10 that's right ,. They were 10-5-1 as favorites.... before the game.

See for yourself.   https://www.vegasinsider.com/nfl/teams/team-page.cfm/team/browns

2019 TEAM SCHEDULE & RESULTS

Date Opponent Closing Line Total Result ATS Sep 8 Tennessee Titans   -5.5 45.5 Lost  13 - 43   Loss  /  Over   Sep 16 @ New York Jets   -6.5 45 Won  23 - 3   Win  /  Under   Sep 22 Los Angeles Rams   4.5 48.5 Lost  13 - 20   Loss  /  Under   Sep 29 @ Baltimore Ravens   7 47.5 Won  40 - 25   Win  /  Over   Oct 7 @ San Francisco 49ers   5 48 Lost  3 - 31   Loss  /  Under   Oct 13 Seattle Seahawks   PK 45.5 Lost  28 - 32   Loss  /  Over   Oct 27 @ New England Patriots   10 43 Lost  13 - 27   Loss  /  Under   Nov 3 @ Denver Broncos   -4 39 Lost  19 - 24   Loss  /  Over   Nov 10 Buffalo Bills   -3 42 Won  19 - 16   Push  /  Under   Nov 14 Pittsburgh Steelers   -3 41.5 Won  21 - 7   Win  /  Under   Nov 24 Miami Dolphins   -10.5 46 Won  41 - 24   Win  /  Over   Dec 1 @ Pittsburgh Steelers   -1 40 Lost  13 - 20   Loss  /  Under   Dec 8 Cincinnati Bengals   -6.5 43.5 Won  27 - 19   Win  /  Over   Dec 15 @ Arizona Cardinals   -3 49 Lost  24 - 38   Loss  /  Over   Dec 22 Baltimore Ravens   10 49 Lost  15 - 31   Loss  /  Under   Dec 29 @ Cincinnati Bengals       1:00 PM

Betting favorites reflect public perception, not how good the teams actually are. Bookies are trying to make money and they don't do that by giving them the real odds

On 12/19/2019 at 1:47 PM, mjp28 said:

The only thing that didn't jive with their prognostication was that in 2018 they were 7-8-1 with a rookie quarterback. 9, 10, 11+ wins was a very logical and attainable goal.

They just blew it !

But it really wasn't a logical and attainable goal. We had one of the hardest schedules in the league, if not the toughest, with a rookie head coach and a bunch of new players in key positions. And against the top teams there's not time to gel and no margin for coaching mistakes. If we have Buffalo's schedule we're a playoff team. 

We played:

Titans: 8-7

Jets: 6-9

Rams: 8-7

Ravens x2: 13-2

49ers: 12-3

Seahawks: 11-4

Patriots: 12-3

Broncos: 6-9

Bills: 10-5

Steelers x2: 8-7

Dolphins: 4-11

Bengals x2: 1-14

Cardinals: 5-9-1

I don't see 9+ wins there for a rookie coach with a new core. We only played 6 games against teams with a losing record and we played 9 games against teams that are in the playoffs or have a good chance with one game left. 

Now look at the Bills schedule:

Jets x2: 6-9

Giants: 4-11

Bengals: 1-14

Patriots x2: 12-3

Titans: 8-7

Dolphins x2: 4-11

Eagles: 8-7

Washington: 3-12

Browns: 6-9

Broncos: 6-9

Cowboys: 7-8

Ravens: 13-2

Steelers: 8-7

They played 10 games against teams with a losing record, including 4 out of the 5 worst teams in the league. They played against 7 teams with a chance at the playoffs, but the Cowboys don't have a winning record and the Eagles only do because they're in the NFC east. I see 9+ wins for the Browns against these teams. 

The Browns left wins on the table, for sure, but their schedule did them no favours. They played 6 games against teams with double digit wins and beat two of them, including giving the Ravens their only beatdown of the season. People expected too much too quick. With another offseason together OBJ and Baker will get in sync and we'll get Myles back. These things take time. They're a far cry from winning one game in two seasons two years ago

Also, the 10-3* Pats are only beating the 1-12 Bungholes 13-10 at half. Must be tough to win without knowing what plays are coming...