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Progressives Spit in the face of our only Allies in the Middle East


Mr. T

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Israel’s survival at stake, Clinton warns

 

Article Here

 

Hillary Clinton, US secretary of state, on Monday warned Israel that its survival could be in jeopardy unless it reached a peace deal with the Palestinians.

 

Her warning came in an address to the annual conference of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee in Washington, and followed days of tension between the US and the Israeli government of Benjamin Netanyahu.

 

The Aipac, a powerful lobby group, recently rebuked the Obama administration for its criticism of Israel over the proposed expansion of a Jewish settlement in occupied East Jerusalem. But Mrs Clinton argued that Washington’s concern for Israel’s ultimate security had led to the clash with Mr Netanyahu.

 

In remarks that earned her one of several standing ovations from an audience of 7,500, she said: “Our commitment to Israel’s security and Israel’s future is rock solid, unwavering, enduring and forever.”

 

But she received a more guarded response when she outlined the administration’s reasoning behind its push for a peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians. “The conflict with the Palestinians and with Israel’s Arab neighbours ... threatens Israel’s long-term future as a secure and democratic Jewish state,” she said.

 

Mrs Clinton referred to the “belief among many” that better security and fewer suicide bombings in Israel meant “the status quo can be sustained”. But “the dynamics of demography, ideology, and technology make this impossible”.

 

Citing Ehud Barak, Israel’s defence minister, she said: “The inexorable mathematics of demography are hastening the hour at which Israelis may have to choose between preserving their democracy and staying true to the dream of a Jewish homeland.” She argued that the continuation of the Arab-Israeli conflict strengthened “rejectionists” and helped Iran.

 

The ever-evolving technology of war was making it harder to guarantee Israel’s security, she added. “For six decades Israelis have guarded their borders vigilantly. But advances in rocket technology mean that Israeli families are now at risk far from those borders.”

 

In her speech Mrs Clinton said that US objections to the planned expansion of a settlement in East Jerusalem were not about “wounded pride”. Describing the final status of Jerusalem as an issue to be settled by negotiation between Israel and the Palestinian leadership, she said: “This is about getting to the table, creating and protecting an atmosphere of trust around it and staying there until the job is done.”

 

But some of the tensions were clear in a speech delivered by Howard Kohr, executive director of Aipac. Arguing that it was better for the US to deal with any disagreements with Israel “privately, as is befitting close allies”, he attacked the “specious”, “insidious” and “dangerous” argument that US-Israeli relations rested on resolving the conflict with the Palestinians.

 

Mrs Clinton used her speech to urge Mr Netanyahu to take concrete steps to aid peace talks with the Palestinians, including “demonstrating respect for the legitimate aspirations of the Palestinians, stopping settlement activity and addressing the humanitarian crisis in Gaza”. The Palestinian leadership and Israel’s Arab neighbours also needed to do more.

 

She underlined Washington’s determination to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons and the US drive for “sanctions that will bite”.

Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2010. You may share using our article tools. Please don't cut articles from FT.com and redistribute by email or post to the web.

 

 

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ummm yes considered Israel is only inflaming the arab world with both their apartheid/berlin wall and building into occupied territories....

 

Israel announcing it with our Vice president IN their country........ seriously?

 

They are the minority in a region the ONLY purpose we are in is OIL......... Actually Saudi Arabia is MORE important in terms of stability for our country than Israel......

 

do you know how much we can weaken PR and criminal attention by distancing ourselves from Israeli? They cant both expand and economically destroy and seperate the palestinion people from economic stability/ destroy their homes AND build on occupied land for expansionist policies.......

 

Israel has a right to exist and protect itself BUT to expand into occupied territory well..... they are only fueling the Hamas/Hezbollah type recruiting......

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ummm yes considered Israel is only inflaming the arab world with both their apartheid/berlin wall and building into occupied territories....

 

Israel announcing it with our Vice president IN their country........ seriously?

 

They are the minority in a region the ONLY purpose we are in is OIL......... Actually Saudi Arabia is MORE important in terms of stability for our country than Israel......

 

do you know how much we can weaken PR and criminal attention by distancing ourselves from Israeli? They cant both expand and economically destroy and seperate the palestinion people from economic stability/ destroy their homes AND build on occupied land for expansionist policies.......

 

Israel has a right to exist and protect itself BUT to expand into occupied territory well..... they are only fueling the Hamas/Hezbollah type recruiting......

 

So do you feel that an Israeli surrender and return of all "Palisinian" territory will bring peace?

WSS

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It is funny how all the anti semitic liberals want to compare Israel with other rogue nations.

 

I would bet these same progressive liberals who make attack on Israel would do as Austria did in the 30's.

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It is funny how all the anti semitic liberals want to compare Israel with other rogue nations.

 

I would bet these same progressive liberals who make attack on Israel would do as Austria did in the 30's.

 

 

While at the same time cursing the US for angering the poor Muslims.

 

WSS

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I am racist against Israeli's??? lmao..... one of my partners is jewish, our accounting firm is Jewish, My CFO is Lebanese..... I have actually been to Israel... funny

 

I dont have a problem with Israel, I have a problem with their right wing politics and policies...... The same as I hate hezbollah and Hamas.......... The PEOPLE on BOTH sides is who I care about not the politics or who is right or wrong...

 

Do I think IF they gave up all of the occupied disputed territories Hamas and Hezbollah will go away? NO. I just happen to think to back a ally just because they are an ally and ignore policies and actions that are clearly inhumane is stupid.

 

I am all for pursueing criminals aggresively (like the after the Munich olympics) but people need to have economic opportunity and you cant bulldoze their houses and build on top of them without expecting them to take it personally.....

 

Its on Both sides but WE as Americans IF we are to lead by example we must also admonish a friend as fast as we would a neutral or a foe in order to have weight behind our actions. We should stand with Israel in terms of the right to exist and COEXIST with its neighbors in CONSTRUCTIVE policies.

 

The extremist wont ever go away but they can be marginilized but you have to win the support of the people in order to do that.... when they have nothing in terms of jobs/money/food/opportunity and you build thru their lands and on their houses...... well you are only empowering the extremists. Its a feedback cycle that never ends.

 

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Israel was illegally declared war upon. Because they exist.

 

Israel won the war, the other countries can go suck an egg.

 

I'm happy with stopping all aid to all other countries.

 

I'd be DELIGHTED if we would quit the worthless UN and save all THAT money.

 

But, Israel gave, and regretted the broken promises of peace.

 

Weird, and very UNAmerican, to jump on board with Obamao's anti-semitism.

 

Anti-semitism.... where have I seen that occur before....they promised hc too...

 

Israel will never see peace, and to say America would benefit from turning their back on

 

Israel is appalling. We TOLD you Obama admin would have a very poor relationship with, and antagonism toward,

 

Israel. We TOLD you.

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first cal I highly doubt you have ever been to Israel to see what their right wing POLICIES are doing to the palestinion people...... ITS NOT anti-semitic to disagree with Israels Right wing hawkish/expansionist party and policies that are further aggravating the problem.

 

You have to stop being juvenile and simple by trying to tie supporting the right for a PEOPLE to exist and POLICIES and ACTIONS that dont represent the whole of the PEOPLE there.....

 

ITS not Un-American to disagree with further aggravating actions that only inflame more violence..... ITS a POSITION in INTERNATIONAL politics and PR..... You know we do have ties with the arab Muslim countries....

 

I highly doubt the first highly educated Black Juris doctorate specializing in congressional law is Anti-semitic......

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I highly doubt the first highly educated Black Juris doctorate specializing in congressional law is Anti-semitic......

 

 

Right Sev. No history of ill will between Negroes and Jews.

 

 

But that's a pretty stupid styatement which would draw the wrath of the colorblind gang if....if....

 

 

And if I'd hauled out the old "some of my best friends are..." how long before the shitstorm fired up?

WSS

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first cal I highly doubt you have ever been to Israel to see what their right wing POLICIES are doing to the palestinion people...... ITS NOT anti-semitic to disagree with Israels Right wing hawkish/expansionist party and policies that are further aggravating the problem.

************************

I haven't been there. father in law has. A pastor was from Israel, became a Christian, I learned a lot.

 

Studied it in college. Was assistant scout master for a year. He was from the Israeli intelligence when he lived there.

 

It IS anti Semitic to say that the Israeli's should stop living and existing, stupid, because Hamas,Hezbollah

 

don't like them existing. Of course, they shouldn't do ANYTHING the Arabs don't like.

 

but, the Arabs can blow up school buses full of Israeli children, and the left is quiet.

 

But let the Arabs complain about anything Israel does, and wham ! oBAMAOites go ballistic.

 

Anti-Semitism, says I.

*****************************

You have to stop being juvenile and simple by trying to tie supporting the right for a PEOPLE to exist and POLICIES and ACTIONS that dont represent the whole of the PEOPLE there.....

*****************************

I defend the right of Israel, hopelessly outnumbered and the victim of extreme hatred and violence and terrorist acts,

to defend itself. What's asinine, it to blame Israel for building settlements, or controlling the Gaza Strip

AFTER ISRAEL HAD TO FIGHT A WAR THAT WAS DECLARED AGAINST IT FOR NO GOOD REASON.

 

Be very quiet, Sev, the crickets have more common sense on the subject than you do. @@

******************************

 

ITS not Un-American to disagree with further aggravating actions that only inflame more violence..... ITS a POSITION in INTERNATIONAL politics and PR..... You know we do have ties with the arab Muslim countries....

 

******************************

I would refuse to have ties with any Arab Muslim country that refused to honor Israel's right to live in peace,

 

and does anything to support terrorists.

 

Hear of any Israeli children blowing themselves up lately to kill Arabs? Hear of any Israeli gov in HISTORY of man, that

 

wanted Arab countries to not exist?

 

Ya. You are lost on the subject.

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Cal I work with people who were born on both sides, I have been there....... the war? seriously?

 

Blowing themselves up? how many children do you think have died to Israeli bombs? why do they use suicide missions? BECAUSE THEY DONT HAVE ANY OTHER EFFECTIVE WEAPONS TO STAND AGAINST Israel armed forces and nuclear arsenal........

 

They have NOTHING..... Before Britain and the West decided to drop the jews there it was already POPULATED with Palestinians....

 

Um no where in my posts did you EVER see that I would refer that Israel does not have the "right" to exist.... in fact the opposite.... your reading comprehension is very poor.

 

Israel had to fight a war because THEY DISPLACED THE PALESTINIANS.... AND THE CHRISTIANS AND MUSLIMS HAVE BEEN FIGHTING OVER JERUSALEM SINCE THE CRUSADES........

 

The Palestinians have NOTHING...... no jobs, no economy, NOTHING..... you went to college and studied middle east history? seriously? BS

 

Obama and his admin WANT PEACE negotiations and they know that expansionist policies stop the Moderate palestinians and the rest of the arab nations from coming to the table........

 

more common sense from someone who has never been there on both sides and works with people that are from there and have family there...... sure....

 

I dont hold prejudices for Jews T..... seriously one of my partners is jewish and so is our accounting firm.......... I dont care where people are from or what religions they follow. I have perspective on this current issue and one Alo and i obviously discussed in the past because I was there and work with people on both sides of this problem.

 

The people are not the problem, its the politics and those who have an agenda of power on both sides.... the people are beautiful both jewish and arab it the damn ideology/history/western meddling/politics/religions

 

 

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its the politics and those who have an agenda of power on both sides

 

Correct.

 

But it is not our place to tell Israel that they have to let in the arabs after they allready beat them in the war.

 

I suppose if we are to go olang with that ideology then the US should give texas & Califorrnia back to Mexico.

 

 

Good Grief.

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Correct.

 

But it is not our place to tell Israel that they have to let in the arabs after they allready beat them in the war.

 

I suppose if we are to go olang with that ideology then the US should give texas & Califorrnia back to Mexico.

 

 

Good Grief.

 

we are not telling them anything T.... however they have told the international community they want to coexist peacefully.... well thats a dance that takes 2 parties not just one.

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Then what is Hillary doing then? playing checkers?

 

This whole thread has been spawned by her actions.

 

Hillary Clinton, US secretary of state, on Monday warned Israel that its survival could be in jeopardy unless it reached a peace deal with the Palestinians.
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Then what is Hillary doing then? playing checkers?

 

This whole thread has been spawned by her actions.

Because they are acting unilaterally surrounded by Arab nations.... Sooner or later one of them is going to get a nuke it's not if anymore (Iran) it's when.

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Sev's racism is showing it's ugly head.

 

Correct.

 

But it is not our place to tell Israel that they have to let in the arabs after they allready beat them in the war.

 

I suppose if we are to go olang with that ideology then the US should give texas & Califorrnia back to Mexico.

 

 

Good Grief.

 

You guys are missing the point; the Israelis are responsible for a bunch of human rights abuses. They basically expanded their borders over areas that Palestinians were living, bulldozing their houses while the families watched. I don't see how criticizing the Israeli government for doing that equals racism. I'm not saying that the Palestinians are in the right, that whole situation is FUBAR as far as I'm concerned, and there will probably be a bloody mess when the shit finally hits the fan. I think that comparing it to Texas and California is a bit unfair. That'd be like us taking over Tijuana this year, then kicking the Mexicans out, and justify it by saying "Remember the Alamo." Just because you've beaten someone in a war, it doesn't make it ethically acceptable to bully them around afterward.

 

You're thinking along the lines of "To the victor go the spoils."

 

I think that the situation is better examined with the following quote.

 

"War does not determine who is right, only who is left."

 

Then they need to keep their guard up and not allow any cracks in the wall.

 

Like we say in football, a good defense is a Great offense.

 

Are you suggesting a preemptive attack? That the Israelis keep bullying and bulldozing homes and displacing more Arabs to maintain their power? At the very least, you're saying that Israelis are within their rights to do this. That may be so, I mean they have the guns, tanks, and firepower. But to completely excuse them for what they're doing is a horrible injustice.

 

Yes, they are our allies, and we give them lots of leeway, but I feel like you guys are treating them as if they are an absolute good. Which they are not. Do the Muslims over there commit horrible human rights abuses? Absolutely. And because of that, the US media and government has been very quick to criticize. It's about time we see the same scrutiny applied to the other party over there.

 

What's asinine, it to blame Israel for building settlements, or controlling the Gaza Strip

AFTER ISRAEL HAD TO FIGHT A WAR THAT WAS DECLARED AGAINST IT FOR NO GOOD REASON.

 

I would refuse to have ties with any Arab Muslim country that refused to honor Israel's right to live in peace, and does anything to support terrorists. Hear of any Israeli children blowing themselves up lately to kill Arabs? Hear of any Israeli gov in HISTORY of man, that wanted Arab countries to not exist?

 

Ya. You are lost on the subject.

 

As sev said, just because the Palestinians use suicide techniques, it doesn't make them less moral than the Israeli government that approves bulldozing and white phosphorus air strikes. What makes the Israelis so correct!?!? Because the superpowers of the world moved some Muslims after WWII, those displaced Muslims should be okay with it? Bullshit. And if you really step back and take a look at the big picture, isn't that what happened to the Israelis? Enslaved by the Egyptians and Babylonians, then when they came back to where they used to live, other people were living there? What gives them the right to that land? The god of Abraham? Also bullshit. You know if you were in your position, you'd be pissed off enough for a war too. That whole situation is a clusterf*ck.

 

I think your perspective on this situation is completely one-sided. You find suicide bombings completely despicable, like most people. But the fact is, they're at war, and war is f*cking ugly. Just because you're pushing with AH-1 Cobra's and M1A1 Abrams, it doesn't make you morally above the people that are trying to push you back with bombs strapped to their chests. Your opinion on this is equivalent to a German reading a newspaper article about the Swamp Fox during the American Revolution. You're forgetting one key thing about this whole mess over there. Perspective. It's much easier to paint one side as good and one side as bad, than it is to accept that both sides are ethically and morally bankrupt.

 

 

THESE LINKS ARE NSFW, ONLY CLICK IF YOU CAN STOMACH THEM

Here are some pictures of victims of WP

http://images.google.com/images?q=white%20...l=en&tab=wi

And some of suicide bombings

http://images.google.com/images?um=1&h...ai=&start=0

 

Those pictures are the real differences between the two sides in this stupid conflict over who has the better imaginary friend.

 

 

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I understand some of your points, 'Vapor.

 

But seriously, the Palestinians, who are just displaced Arabs, have never

 

had war declared upon them.

 

Israel has.

 

The OFFENSIVE ASSAULTS by Arabs are hardly equivalent to

 

DEFENSIVE MEASURES to DEFEND ISRAEL AND KEEP IT FROM BEING OVERRUN.

 

The UN created Israel, to make a place for the Jewish peoples, after WWII and the atrocities

 

that occured by the Nazis.... AND THE UN TRIED TO MAKE A PALESTINIAN STATE AT THAT TIME,

 

But the "palestinians" REFUSED because they HATED JEWS SO MUCH, THEY REFUSED TO HAVE A STATE

 

IF THE JEWS GOT ONE TOO.

 

Learn the history. The hate and violence has been occuring against the Jews forever, back from the early

 

centuries when Mohammed still existed.

 

The Palestinians REFUSED TO RECEIVE A STATE. They SCREWED THEMSELVES. And, the hatred for Jews

 

is so hideously culturally ingrained now... what do you do?

 

How do you give them a state now, when they want to kill Jews and destroy Israel ANYWAY ?

 

The most important part of all the attempted negotiations was the gaza strip. And it turned out badly

 

for the Israelis.

 

It always will. when Israel is attacked, hell YES they have a right to use bombs etc to defend themselves.

 

Those "palestinians" who happily allowed Hamas and Hezbollah terrorists to move in and fire rockets with glee?

 

Bulldoze their freaking houses in defense.

 

Self defense is a RIGHT. ASSAULT is not.

 

You are forgetting the idea, that the aggressor is NOT ISRAEL. The Arabic terrorists are the AGGRESSOR.

 

Crime doesn't pay, and in attacks, all hell breaks loose in defense. Get over it. The fault completely lies

 

with the aggressive and violent "palestinian" behavior, not that all Palestinians are party to hatred and violence...

 

But still, to blame Israel and ignore the many, many crimes against Israel, is bogus, and the Obamao admin,

 

friendly to Muslims as a rule, and not friendly to Israelis as a rule.... is misguided in prejudging a historical

 

hate-filled evolution on the part of Arabic peoples by cherry picking politically expedient historical events...

 

and it IS anti-Semitism at it's very worst.

 

A couple of you guys are not comprehensively looking at the subject historically or logically.

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BTW, Vapor, what I meant to say earlier, but was going too fast, was that I was an assistant

 

Scoutmaster for a year, the Scoutmaster was from Israel. He had worked in the intel services.

 

I learned a lot from him.

 

He was the guy, that when a friend and I went to a rally with Richard Nixon stumping for

 

pres, we saw a volkswagon beetle at a gas station right before we were going to turn to park,

 

with a serious rifle laying across the back seat.

 

The owner was a big tall hippie was walking into the store.

 

We got the license number - first think we did. was run and find that scoutmaster, ... he was recruited as an

 

on the ground security assistant...

 

And, you can ask Alo - we have had some terrific conversations on this board about the Middle East...

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Yes. I know the history of how Israel got there, and who put them there. The problem is defining who was right. Was the UN correct? The area was predominantly Muslim when the UN decided to put the displaced Jews there. You're still not putting yourself in their position. If the UN mandated that all the Muslims that have been displaced by the Israelis in the last 20 years were to be given a fourth of the land in Ohio, but we could still keep the other 3/4, you know that NO ONE would be okay with that. Hell I doubt that people in the south would be okay with a bunch of displaced Muslims being put into Mexico. The reaction would be, "Who do these UN outsiders think they are to tell us what to do?" I mean, the UN is a joke, look at how much the US listens to them now. Your reaction would be the exact same as theirs, the only reason something like this doesn't happen to us is because we are extremely lucky to have been born as American citizens with a standing army that doesn't put up with other people's bullshit.

 

You call it anti-Semitism, but to me, this seems extremely fair. The Israelis believe that they are doing nothing wrong, but guess what, so do the Palestinians, and no matter how you twist it, neither side will EVER EVER EVER be absolutely right or wrong. You can point out that the UN ruling is correct, but I can just as easily go back a little further, and find a point in history where the Muslims were in charge of that land. Just because the UN ruling happened more recently does not make it correct. You're calling the Obama administration friendly to the Muslims and unfriendly to the Jews, when really what they are doing is very impartial, they're just not being as friendly to the side that you picked as correct.

 

It always will. when Israel is attacked, hell YES they have a right to use bombs etc to defend themselves.

 

Suicide bombs are a warning/scare tactic. What the hell else are people supposed to do when fighting a technologically advanced enemy. Honorable toe-to-toe combat? Get real.

 

Bulldoze their freaking houses in defense.

 

This is not a 100% defensive tactic. Because some mother f*cker decides to launch RPG's from a neighborhood near the border, you have the right to level the whole area? I'm sure some Muslims there that ARE advocating this, and giving quarter to these 'terrorists,' but I really, highly doubt that it is the majority of the people there. I know that if I was a Muslim and had a family living near the border, I wouldn't want these 'freedom fighters' anywhere near my house or neighborhood, it's just asking for WP. Do you think the US should bulldoze Juarez, Mexico and push the fence back because there is a drug war occurring next to El Paso (which has taken the lives of some Americans)? I would think that most would find a serious moral issue with that. I mean, yes, there is a problem that should be addressed. Displacing a bunch of people and bulldozing their homes while they watch is NOT the way to do it. It will only create problems in the long run.

 

Self defense is a RIGHT. ASSAULT is not.

You are forgetting the idea, that the aggressor is NOT ISRAEL. The Arabic terrorists are the AGGRESSOR.

 

I think you are making this too black and white. Tell that to the Arabs that DIDN'T do anything that ARE getting displaced. It's a huge injustice to them, but all that this is accomplishing is ensuring that another generation of Muslims grow up hating Jews. I don't have an alternative for how to handle this situation because it's Retarded in the first place, and I really don't think that any good will EVER come of it. But you are advocating indiscriminate aggression toward civilians, and that is what the US government will NOT do. If we did, then we would've just carpet bombed the shit out of the entire middle east after 9/11. America does not indiscriminately target civilians, Bush wouldn't even do that, why should we allow Israel to do so?

 

That being said, I do see your side of the argument where Israel does not have much of a choice as for how to defend themselves from mortar attacks. This is an argument between morality and practicality, and regardless of the outcome, one side is going to be very, very pissed off at what happens. I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised to see this conflict be resolved with nuclear weapons.

 

/edit

This is good shit. First time I've had enough free time to get on here in about a month... School's a bitch.

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Yes. I know the history of how Israel got there, and who put them there. The problem is defining who was right. Was the UN correct? The area was predominantly Muslim when the UN decided to put the displaced Jews there. You're still not putting yourself in their position. If the UN mandated that all the Muslims that have been displaced by the Israelis in the last 20 years were to be given a fourth of the land in Ohio, but we could still keep the other 3/4, you know that NO ONE would be okay with that. Hell I doubt that people in the south would be okay with a bunch of displaced Muslims being put into Mexico.

************************************

There is no history of the Jewish peoples belong and living in and around Ohio or Mexico.

 

Bad analogy. The history of the Jewish peoples, the ancient Jewish tribes sometimes completely

 

murdered, men and women and children, because they would not convert to the Muslim religion...

 

then, to the hideousness of Nazi extermination... you do know where the Nazis got their projection of

 

hate and violence toward all Jews, right?

****************************************

The reaction would be, "Who do these UN outsiders think they are to tell us what to do?" I mean, the UN is a joke, look at how much the US listens to them now. Your reaction would be the exact same as theirs, the only reason something like this doesn't happen to us is because we are extremely lucky to have been born as American citizens with a standing army that doesn't put up with other people's bullshit.

****************************************

In the aftermath of WWII, something had to be done. The Palestinians could have had their own state too.

 

I WANT us to get out of the UN. It is a pile of sheet. But back in the day, it was a WORLD WAR, and the WORLD POWERS on the West side, WON, and the responsibility was, to make things right so it wouldn't happen again.

 

BS, on this "poor Palestinian's plight"... their sickening HATRED and VIOLENCE led to their own misery.

It's Nazi all over again. to blame their plight on the Jews.

 

The Jewish people didn't hate, and accepted their new country. Next door, the Palestinians could have

had their own country.

 

The Palestinian hate mongers blew that. So, they have been SELF-"misplaced all these years.

 

Gee, was it "fair that the Jewish people, and not the Arabic peoples, who were exterminated by the Nazis?

 

Again, go find out where the Nazi's gleaned their hatred of the Jewish people from.

****************************************************************

You call it anti-Semitism, but to me, this seems extremely fair. The Israelis believe that they are doing nothing wrong, but guess what, so do the Palestinians, and no matter how you twist it, neither side will EVER EVER EVER be absolutely right or wrong. You can point out that the UN ruling is correct, but I can just as easily go back a little further, and find a point in history where the Muslims were in charge of that land. Just because the UN ruling happened more recently does not make it correct. You're calling the Obama administration friendly to the Muslims and unfriendly to the Jews, when really what they are doing is very impartial, they're just not being as friendly to the side that you picked as correct.

****************************************************************

Fair, nothin, unless you IGNORE the entire history of the Jewish and Arabic peoples, the entire history of World War II, IGNORE the hatred coming only from ONE SIDE (not all of them, obviously, - that's the ARABIC SIDE)...

 

No one is saying the Israelis haven't made mistakes in their self defense actions.

But

 

crap. I have to go take a conference call....

 

 

It always will. when Israel is attacked, hell YES they have a right to use bombs etc to defend themselves.

 

Suicide bombs are a warning/scare tactic. What the hell else are people supposed to do when fighting a technologically advanced enemy. Honorable toe-to-toe combat? Get real.

 

Bulldoze their freaking houses in defense.

 

This is not a 100% defensive tactic. Because some mother f*cker decides to launch RPG's from a neighborhood near the border, you have the right to level the whole area? I'm sure some Muslims there that ARE advocating this, and giving quarter to these 'terrorists,' but I really, highly doubt that it is the majority of the people there. I know that if I was a Muslim and had a family living near the border, I wouldn't want these 'freedom fighters' anywhere near my house or neighborhood, it's just asking for WP. Do you think the US should bulldoze Juarez, Mexico and push the fence back because there is a drug war occurring next to El Paso (which has taken the lives of some Americans)? I would think that most would find a serious moral issue with that. I mean, yes, there is a problem that should be addressed. Displacing a bunch of people and bulldozing their homes while they watch is NOT the way to do it. It will only create problems in the long run.

 

Self defense is a RIGHT. ASSAULT is not.

You are forgetting the idea, that the aggressor is NOT ISRAEL. The Arabic terrorists are the AGGRESSOR.

 

I think you are making this too black and white. Tell that to the Arabs that DIDN'T do anything that ARE getting displaced. It's a huge injustice to them, but all that this is accomplishing is ensuring that another generation of Muslims grow up hating Jews. I don't have an alternative for how to handle this situation because it's Retarded in the first place, and I really don't think that any good will EVER come of it. But you are advocating indiscriminate aggression toward civilians, and that is what the US government will NOT do. If we did, then we would've just carpet bombed the shit out of the entire middle east after 9/11. America does not indiscriminately target civilians, Bush wouldn't even do that, why should we allow Israel to do so?

 

That being said, I do see your side of the argument where Israel does not have much of a choice as for how to defend themselves from mortar attacks. This is an argument between morality and practicality, and regardless of the outcome, one side is going to be very, very pissed off at what happens. I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised to see this conflict be resolved with nuclear weapons.

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There is no history of the Jewish peoples belong and living in and around Ohio or Mexico.

 

Bad analogy. The history of the Jewish peoples, the ancient Jewish tribes sometimes completely

 

murdered, men and women and children, because they would not convert to the Muslim religion...

 

then, to the hideousness of Nazi extermination... you do know where the Nazis got their projection of

 

hate and violence toward all Jews, right?

 

Fine, bad analogy. Replace that with Native Americans. But you've missed my point, you wouldn't be happy with anyone forcibly moving you from where you live. ANYONE. Not even the UN and all the nation's superpowers. Of course it was allowed to happen, the Muslims in the region were in no position to fight against the superpowers of the world.

 

Fair, nothin, unless you IGNORE the entire history of the Jewish and Arabic peoples, the entire history of World War II, IGNORE the hatred coming only from ONE SIDE (not all of them, obviously, - that's the ARABIC SIDE)...

 

You really believe that there's only hate stemming from one side? Even Israel's own human rights organization, B'Tselem, calls the Israeli government out on human rights abuses? They're not the only ones, either, include Amnesty Int'l and Human Rights Watch on that list as well.

 

http://www.btselem.org/English/Gaza_Strip/

 

I WANT us to get out of the UN. It is a pile of sheet. But back in the day, it was a WORLD WAR, and the WORLD POWERS on the West side, WON, and the responsibility was, to make things right so it wouldn't happen again.

 

Okay, once again "War does not determine who is right, only who is left."

 

Yes it was the winning side's responsibility to figure things out after the war, but making sure World War III wouldn't stem from the middle east was clearly not a priority. The nations involved were thinking in their own best interests. Why not install a government very friendly to us in an oil-rich region filled with people we aren't very familiar with. [sarcasm]Yes, that was very far-sighted of them. [/sarcasm] The world's superpowers don't act to make the world a better place, they act to make a world a better place for themselves (just look at the fallout of American influence in S. America during the Cold War, you get the same less-than-ideal situations after the conflict is resolved).

 

You paint the Israelites as some righteous group of people, overcoming adversity in the face of oppression. How can you honestly believe they are without fault? Do you really think that the Nazis only gained their hatred of Jews from Islamic peoples alone? Yeah right, anti-Semitism has been a part of history ever since the Jews came to be. They claimed some asshole in the sky promised them land, and took it by force through a series of genocides (hey, it's in the Bible). Since the births of the three major Abrahamic religions, they've hated each other to a great degree. Look at the Crusades, the Inquisition, the persecution of Christians by Jews, the martyring of Christian converts by Muslims, it's a sickening cycle. We just happen to be living in a time where Jews and Christians are aligned against Islam, and you happen to be Christian. The Nazi Anti-Semitic belief is in no way 100% derived from Islamic people, no way. Did some Muslims take advantage of the Nazis having a common enemy, and help to ensure Jews made it to extermination camps? Yes. But that in NO WAY incriminates all of the families being displaced by Israel, today, nor does it excuse Israel's disregard for basic human rights.

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Cal I actually agree with your position that Israel is also suffering some pretty heinous violent acts..... the surrounding Arab countries have gotten crushed by Israel in the subsequent wars and skirmishes.......

 

Lets really put aside all the who is responsible for what and start with some things we can agree on.

 

 

1.Israel exists as a nation and has the right to exist and defend itself.

2.Palestinians need to have their own state that coexists PEACEFULLY with Israel

3.The other Arab nations (most of them already have) recognize Israel and want to coexist peacefully

4. both sides need to suspend aggressive actions against each other (this includes expansionist buildings in occupied territories)

 

IF we can agree on those four basic principles.... than WE as MEDIATORS have to criticize EITHER side regardless of ally status.... which is EXACTLY what this administration is doing.

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1.Israel exists as a nation and has the right to exist and defend itself.

2.Palestinians need to have their own state that coexists PEACEFULLY with Israel

3.The other Arab nations (most of them already have) recognize Israel and want to coexist peacefully

4. both sides need to suspend aggressive actions against each other (this includes expansionist buildings in occupied territories)

 

IF we can agree on those four basic principles.... than WE as MEDIATORS have to criticize EITHER side regardless of ally status.... which is EXACTLY what this administration is doing.

 

************************************

1. Yes

2. Yes

3. Yes

4. Yes

 

However, this admin is NOT being fair. They sugarcoat the aggression towards Israel, and have taken a public

 

hard line bigtime, to Israel. The Obamao snubs occured well before this announcement of new development housing.

 

Obamao has CLEARLY reached out to the Muslim world, has SAID and REFERRED to his "Muslim faith",

 

and has not displayed any friendship nor understanding of the hateful and extremely violent aggression

 

by Hamas and Hezbollah, and the PLO, etc.

 

But if you have time, follow the link below, ...it's long, but skim it and find the good parts.

 

It will show you that the Jewish people never initiated the violence - they were persecuted from the beginning.

 

It will show you, that the hateful racism of the -extremist militant - Palestinians has led to the demise

 

and lack of their own country for their fellow Palestinians...

 

I won't be "fair" in ignoring the history of persecution of the Jewish people. READ the history, and see that giving up Gaza has led to a serious lack of security and a threat to their existence. And now, they are supposed to unilaterally give up Jerusalem? The Palestinians won't give up on taking everyting from Israel. They don't want them to exist.

 

The only hope is, there are enough Good Palestinians and Good Israeli's to get together and declare peace,

 

declare solidarity for Israel's right to exist just as the new Palestinian state will have the right to exist....

 

and that terrorist actions against Israeli's will not be tolerated, Hamas and Hezbollah, et all, must stay

 

out of threatening their soveriegnty. I don't see it. Too much greed, as you will read, will get in the way, and it won't

 

be the greed of the Palsetinians nor the Israelis.

 

http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm

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Just curious.

How many here actually believe there was a genocide committed on the Indians here?

 

Clearly, things weren't handled in the most ethical/moral/legal (?) manner but Genocide?? I say no. Genocide implies an actual government sanctioned or government driven plan to erase a race or group of people. I guess there are more than a couple of examples used to imply government driven attempts but I believe this falls short of genocide.

Just my thoughts.

 

Those who desire a Palistinian homeland, from what part of ancient Palistine shoud it be taken?

 

I strongly support Israel but that doesn't mean that we have to blindly support all of their activities. Sometimes, 'tough love' is needed. Therefore, I don't mind Obama's administration pushing the envelope all that much. Checks and balances are ok with me - at least in this case.

WSS

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Those who desire a Palistinian homeland, from what part of ancient Palistine shoud it be taken?

 

I strongly support Israel but that doesn't mean that we have to blindly support all of their activities. Sometimes, 'tough love' is needed. Therefore, I don't mind Obama's administration pushing the envelope all that much. Checks and balances are ok with me - at least in this case.

 

But that's not what I asked my friend.

 

How much of what land from ancient Palistine should be set aside for a "new" Palistine?

 

WSS

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