Progressives Spit in the face of our only Allies in the Middle East

[Chicopee John]

Those who desire a Palistinian homeland, from what part of ancient Palistine shoud it be taken?

 

I strongly support Israel but that doesn't mean that we have to blindly support all of their activities. Sometimes, 'tough love' is needed. Therefore, I don't mind Obama's administration pushing the envelope all that much. Checks and balances are ok with me - at least in this case.

 

But that's not what I asked my friend.

 

How much of what land from ancient Palistine should be set aside for a "new" Palistine?

 

WSS

 

I have no answer for that, Steve. As you know my wife teaches school. In today's world she would have given me a "B" because I put something down.

 

[Westside Steve]

I have no answer for that, Steve. As you know my wife teaches school. In today's world she would have given me a "B" because I put something down.

 

 

And you're the only member of the class who did.

Cheers

WSS

[VaporTrail]

I have no answer for that, Steve.

 

That's because there is no correct answer for the situation. It's far beyond help, but in my opinion, this is what the US plan is. Concerning foreign policy, the goal of the United States is to maintain its position as the world's super power. This is done, not by taking places over, but by maintaining an uneasy balance of power, such that no other nation can enter a position which may challenge our power. In case you haven't noticed, Israel has made the surrounding nations its bitches, and this was enabled by a turn-the-other-way policy that the US has had with them since as long as I can remember (I'm only 22). However, the human rights abuses that Israel has been committing are finally being noticed by large groups of people, it looks bad for the US to support shit like that. I believe that those two factors are the main reasons that Gaza is the way it is now.

 

As for what I think the US should do with the displaced Palestinians? Nothing. What can we do that won't infuriate one of the two sides anymore? The best option, imo, is to do what we are doing now, distancing ourselves from either side, and decrying what the world community agrees is universally wrong (Cutting off water to sections they are going to bulldoze, bulldozing homes without the homeowners permissions, etc). This may sound selfish, but regardless of what you may think, I WANT the US to stay as the world's premier superpower, I mean, I love living here with the style of life I have.

 

By distancing ourselves from being enablers of human rights abuse, we are looked highly upon by the world community. It's no secret that Israel has been doing this shit, there are thousands of people questioning why we allowed it for so long. Concerning the surrounding Islamic nations, we obviously will continue to denounce the guerrilla warfare/terrorist tactics, but (and here's where my shit gets morally gray), that's all we should do about it. It may lead to more horrible violence further down the road, but so long as our involvement in it is minimal, I'm okay with it. Should it break out into another all-out war, it ultimately will make the US better off, because if we don't have our noses in it, that means more hatred directed toward the Israelis, and less directed toward us. But think about this, why does so much of the Islamic world hate the US? Well shit, read it straight from the horse's mouth

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver

 

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

\a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

 

That's the very first point. They HATE us because of our ties with Israel. Anything that we can do to reduce the hatred that these people feel for us is a good thing. If the cost is more hatred toward Israel, I'm okay with it, whatever keeps ME living the way I'm able to live right now. That being said, this is NOT supporting Osama bin Laden, NOT approving of human rights abuses, NOT approving of terrorism. If we're not going to lift a finger when one side commits an atrocity, why should we allow the other side to do so? This is us covering our asses. The world is not static, and Israel may not always be our allies, and its surrounding nations our enemies. I believe that this action has improved our standing, albeit minimally, with the Muslim world; and while it is less than ideal for the Israelis, they are in no position to criticize us for it.

[calfoxwc]

I say, you can quote bin laden if you want to...but the Jews have lived in the region for centuries.

 

You have railed against being friends with Israel... because it's unpopular?

 

Then why has Russia had trouble with terrorists. Because they are friends with Russia?

 

You are ignoring the abuses of ISRAELI'S RIGHTS FOR DECADES, and JEW's RIGHTS FOR CENTURIES.

 

Learn the history. I posted it.

 

They hate us because WE EXIST, and if it weren't for us and our aid, they could have overrun Israel and

 

murdered them all, men, women and children.

 

You HOPE that war breaks out, so Israel will be more hated?

 

The Nazis got their projection hatred for the Jews... from the extremeist Muslims.

 

Compared to the truth of the history, you don't have any legit case to say "Israeli's are bad, and

 

turn our back on them, and give the Arab countries our friendship... there's more of them, and they

 

have the oil"

 

or, whatever you are saying in between the lines.......

[VaporTrail]

I say, you can quote bin laden if you want to...but the Jews have lived in the region for centuries.

 

So have Muslims.

 

You have railed against being friends with Israel... because it's unpopular?

 

Because it's unpopular with the world community, it is very obviously hypocritical to criticize one side for cowardly tactics while we enable the other side to commit human rights abuses.

 

Then why has Russia had trouble with terrorists. Because they are friends with Russia?

 

I brought up why the US is having trouble with Islamic radicals. Russia's problems with Islamic peoples are similar to ours in that they tried to make a bunch of poorer Muslim nations submit to them during the Cold War, the difference between us and them is that they didn't have a middleman like we do with Israel. Though I don't see why you're bringing this up.

 

You are ignoring the abuses of ISRAELI'S RIGHTS FOR DECADES, and JEW's RIGHTS FOR CENTURIES.

 

No, I'm not. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

You HOPE that war breaks out, so Israel will be more hated?

 

No, I don't. I don't like war. It's the ugliest thing on the planet. However, it's pretty reasonable to predict war breaking out there, would you agree? That's all I'm doing. If war breaks out there, I'd like it to stay there, and the hell away from the United States.

 

The Nazis got their projection hatred for the Jews... from the extremeist Muslims.

 

Yes, it came only from the Muslims. It surely didn't come from any of the fundamentalist Christians that were jealous of Jews holding power after WWI. If you think Jew-hating is a strictly Muslim/Nazi thing, then I'd suggest you read up on the history of Christianity.

 

Compared to the truth of the history, you don't have any legit case to say "Israeli's are bad, and turn our back on them, and give the Arab countries our friendship... there's more of them, and they have the oil" or, whatever you are saying in between the lines.......

 

What I'm saying is that the United States should not condone human rights abuses. If you support the Israeli regime without question, then you DO condone human rights abuse. I fail to see how this is a bad move by our government. If we were to be attacked again, it's likely not coming from the Jews, I'd expect it to come from Muslim extremists.

 

But now you're thinking "Well if the Muslims are more likely to attack us, why not support the Jews?"

 

Because that increases the risk of an attack on the American homeland. Short of exterminating one of the three major religions, this conflict will exist indefinitely. Anything that helps our standing with the Islamic world will trickle down generations and maybe, eventually, we won't be universally hated.[/wishful thinking]

 

If the US government is going to support a cause that makes a bunch of people angry enough to want to kill people like me or you, then I don't want that support to be half-assed. If we're going to support one side or the other, then I would hope that we would bring our military down on the side we don't support so that anyone that even thinks about attacking us knows what kind of hurt is coming their way. In the case of the Middle East, that is NOT an option, it'd essentially be committing a genocide and asking for World War III no matter which side you support.

 

Does this mean we're giving in to the terrorists? To a degree, yes. They still know that if they want to hurt us, they are going to get a bunch of their friends and family killed doing so, but what are the other options? What was your gut reaction to 9/11? Find em all, kill em all? That's what mine was. I'm pretty sure every American wanted that, but let's be honest, that's not going to happen. There's no way it could realistically happen. The only way you could kill everyone involved and everyone that supported it would be with what's known in some circles as an ethnic cleansing, but the world is not too fond of those. So, with US-backed genocide/100% support for the Israelis/World War III ruled out, what do we have left?

 

There's the theory that we've been using since Israel came into existence, where we give them support, and pretend to be bipartisan, but give them a much longer rope than we do the Palestinians. Did the Palestinians deserve this? Maybe, they probably should've just accepted the state of Israel in the first place, but where does that leave us? Terrorist attacks on Israeli/US assets over the course of six decades, right? But hey, aside from WTC and Munich, everything's been a pinprick, right? Fortunately for us, no terrorists have ever used nuclear weapons. It won't be long, however, before someone with an agenda against the US gets a hold of one from one of the old eastern-bloc states or if Iran or North Korea come up with one and want to make some quick cash. The possibility of nuclear attack on US soil in the next century, hell, in the next 25 years, is a realistic situation, and should it happen, it won't be a pinprick.

 

The US is not the invincible Eagle it used to be. Warfare has changed. Anything we can do, in my opinion, to reduce nuclear threat, is a very good choice. So, between an all-out war, and having the people fear a nuclear/dirty bomb terrorist attack, I'd choose neither. While our administration hasn't taken us out of the crosshairs of extremists, with this choice, it's a step in the right direction. Eventually Israel's gonna be on their own, and they're going to be held especially accountable by their surrounding nations. No matter what WE do, I can only predict that an absolute shitstorm will be what causes that region to finally settle down. The safety of US citizens should be paramount to the US brass. If ensuring our safety means forgoing the safety of Israelis, especially with nuclear proliferation on the horizon, so be it.

 

I think that what I've presented is all reasonable and very possible. If you don't agree with me, in your opinion, what other options do we have? What do you think we should do?

[Westside Steve]

 

No, I'm not. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

I don't see it as a moral equivalent.

 

If ensuring our safety means forgoing the safety of Israelis, especially with nuclear proliferation on the horizon, so be it.

 

But does capitulating to the terrorists make anyone safer?

 

If the US pulled out of every foreign land and became a Muslim nation we'd probably avert some danger.

 

Personally I think Israel is only the excuse for violent extremists.

 

WSS

 

 

 

 

[calfoxwc]

1. The UN is corrupt.

 

2. The UN is being run by those who think supporting the

existence of Israel is no longer politically expedient.

 

3. The Israeli's do not intentionally kill civilians. I'm tired of the idea

that defending your nation from aggression is the same as the intentional

murder by rockets, shootings, and suicide bombers.

 

4. Israel has every RIGHT to DEFEND themselves. I blame the aggressor.

Vapor, you are making excuses for the Palestinians' extreme hatred and violence

because of their poverty stricken circumstances.

 

I say, they have done it to themselves.

[VaporTrail]

I don't see it as a moral equivalent.

 

I think it's really hard to go back and quantify who was more wrong. Are suicide bombings and guerrilla tactics worse than forcing people to watch their homes be bulldozed? Probably. But that doesn't mean we should support it because of that. They're both still things I don't think we should support.

 

But does capitulating to the terrorists make anyone safer?

 

I think so. The hatred for us is so ingrained into these people that the results won't be immediately visible, but I think that changing their perspective of us is worth the US's time and effort. I think that most people have a problem with respecting what these people are capable of, and completely underestimating them. Just because they're hiding in caves, it doesn't mean they're stupid. They've got their shit together enough to have planned an attack that killed 3,000 Americans. They know that they'll never be able to hijack an airliner again, after 9/11 the passengers would never allow it. I'm betting that a nuclear or dirty bomb is going to be their next massive attack.

 

I don't think much can actually be done to stop these people aside from killing them, but our actions are what gives them sustainability. I think that interrupting their staying power is ultimately more important than hunting them all down and trying to kill them; as it stands, that is an impossible task.

 

If the US pulled out of every foreign land and became a Muslim nation we'd probably avert some danger. Personally I think Israel is only the excuse for violent extremists.

 

I don't think it's the only excuse, but I do think it's the biggest.

 

cal

 

1. The UN is corrupt.

 

2. The UN is being run by those who think supporting the

existence of Israel is no longer politically expedient.

 

I don't see why the US needs to blindly support Israel. The fact that it would help our international standing is a perk on top of everything else.

 

3. The Israeli's do not intentionally kill civilians. I'm tired of the idea

that defending your nation from aggression is the same as the intentional

murder by rockets, shootings, and suicide bombers.

 

It isn't the same as that, but when you commit human rights abuses, I don't expect our government to support you.

 

4. Israel has every RIGHT to DEFEND themselves.

 

Agreed. But why does the US need to be involved?

 

I blame the aggressor. Vapor, you are making excuses for the Palestinians' extreme hatred and violence because of their poverty stricken circumstances.

 

Being pushed out of where you live is an excuse for violence and hatred. The newest generations of Palestinians did nothing to deserve being deprived of a home, as far as they're concerned. If the US condones this, then that means another generation of Muslims (including ones that aren't directly affected by this) will grow up hating our country.

 

I say, they have done it to themselves.

 

Okay, that's fine, but are you even considering the outcome of any of this? Have you considered how our actions will affect those that don't think highly of us? Terrorism with nuclear weapons is soon going to be a very viable threat, that is a fact, the question is no longer if, it's a question of when. The status quo that exists today, of a random suicide bombing here or there, is unacceptable once a terrorist nuclear threat exists. I, for one, am glad that the US seems to be addressing that issue preemptively. I feel that improving Muslim relations is far more important to national security than maintaining our current relationship with Israel.

[Mr. T]

The only negotiating a terrorist understands is at the end of a rifle barrel.

 

 

You do not negotiate with those who will commit themseves to mass murder. And you do not make it easier for them to hide in and around those within your country.

 

You must make an example of terrorists.

[VaporTrail]

*sigh*

 

I agree with you to a point. The people that were responsible for 9/11 that are still alive do want to see nothing less than our nation's fall from power. People like that should be made an example of. Unfortunately for us, bin Laden still hasn't been found. It's been almost 10 years, and the most advanced military in the world doesn't have a damn clue.

 

However, this does nothing to solve the real problem that more and more people are being born with the same exact views as the people on our most wanted lists. It isn't feasible to assume that we will hunt down and kill every last one of these bastards, it just isn't, and you need to realize it. These people get sympathy from a good percentage of the people of Muslim nations, are we supposed to kill all of those people, too? How do you separate sympathizers from our supporters? IT CAN'T BE DONE! The only way that goal could be accomplished would be a war of attrition against pretty much every Islamic nation. And the only way I see that happening is if there is a nuclear attack on US soil by Islamic extremists. I really hope it never comes down to that.

 

Supporting Israel, as we've done, has bred more enemies than we can kill.

[Mr. T]

A part of me thinks that bin Laden is dead. The man had many health issues.

 

A slim biography, published in Egypt in 1991 reported that about 1987 bin Laden had health problems that:

forced him to lie down intermittently for hours at a time. He suffered from low blood pressure, which was treated by an Egyptian doctor from Peshawar, and diabetes, for which he received insulin shots. [2c]

Comment: Being "forced to lie down" could be a result of hypotension, autonomic dysfunction, or some other cause of weakness. It could also be a sign of pathological sleepiness (see below). Autonomic dysfunction can be a complication of diabetes.

 

 

"The CIA has determined that bin Laden has an enlarged heart and chronically low blood pressure" [4].

 

On Dec. 8, 1998, NBC News reported that bin Laden had only "months to live," explaining that he was suffering from heart problems and possibly cancer [2d] . Oops.

 

here

[calfoxwc]

Well, we could help Iran wipe Israel off the map with a nuclear weapon...

 

gee, that would make us very popular in the Arab world, in many circles.

 

Why, they would like us so much, that when the terrorists want us to

 

become Muslim or die, they would even give us 24 hours. @@

 

No, if I have a friend who is Jewish, and a few bigger hateful Arab kids keep

 

chasing him down and beating him up, I won't side with the Arab kids.

 

Even if my friend threw a few rocks at them, and hit one in the head after

 

getting beaten up and put into the hospital twice.

 

I'd stick by my friend. It's a matter of principle. He wasn't doing anything wrong,

 

he is allowed to defend himself, and if we both get beaten up, well, then they won't

 

be very happy with the beating they get either.

 

Principle trumps the easy, politically expedient way out for me.

 

I'm just stubborn and loyal that way.

[Westside Steve]

*sigh*

 

I agree with you to a point. The people that were responsible for 9/11 that are still alive do want to see nothing less than our nation's fall from power. People like that should be made an example of. Unfortunately for us, bin Laden still hasn't been found. It's been almost 10 years, and the most advanced military in the world doesn't have a damn clue.

 

The hijackers are dead and KSM is in prison with the ACLU trying to get hiim out.

We've mane Bin Laden a folk hero.

Like the song Pretty Boy Floyd "Every crime in Oklahoma was added to his name."

 

So what if we catch him? He sits like a monk at Gitmo or some other identical facility stateside or he's a martyr.

You think these assholes can't plan another attack from anywhere?

You think his death makes us safe?

How much power does this guy have?

 

" Supporting Israel, as we've done, has bred more enemies than we can kill. "

 

Yeah? Well freeing the slaves hasn't paid off yet safety wise has it?

(BTW before anybody shits his pants that statement was meant to be shocking. Just in case anybody wanted to shreik that I propose reinstating slavery)

 

Also as you look over the world the last few decades and count up the terrorist activity you might notice that it's Muslims, not Jews, as the perps.

 

Finally do you remember how Israel came to occupy the disputed territory?

Agressive military expansion?

No.

 

WSS

[VaporTrail]

You think I don't realize that it's the Muslims that are committing the most terrorist attacks? Continuing support for Israel will just make more terrorists. Once again, I ask you to propose a realistic way for our government to deal with the situation.

[Westside Steve]

You think I don't realize that it's the Muslims that are committing the most terrorist attacks?

 

I don't think you're a fool at all and didn't mean that.

I'm saying that the Muslim extremism is pretty widespread and that using Israel as an excuse doesn't explain or justify it.

And I don't think for one second that even if we nuke Tel Aviv ourselves that these bastards will all of a sudden become peace loving world citizens

 

 

 

Continuing support for Israel will just make more terrorists.

 

And selling them out will tell the Muslim Facists that all they need to do is kill a handful of civilians and the sane world will bend right over.

 

 

Once again, I ask you to propose a realistic way for our government to deal with the situation.

 

Deal with it? If I were president (and I should be ) I tell Netanyahu in private that if they take out Irans nukes we'll resupply them when the shit starts.

I'd also tell him, privately again, that we'll loudly proclaim public opposition.

 

WSS

[VaporTrail]

Deal with it? If I were president (and I should be) I tell Netanyahu in private that if they take out Irans nukes we'll resupply them when the shit starts.

I'd also tell him, privately again, that we'll loudly proclaim public opposition.

 

I see, but I don't really think that'd help our image with the Islamic world (legit governments nor terrorist groups).

 

And selling them out will tell the Muslim Facists that all they need to do is kill a handful of civilians and the sane world will bend right over.

 

While it's a good and fine policy to say that we will not negotiate with terrorists, I think it often gets interpreted as having no respect whatsoever for these people. Don't get me wrong here, I don't respect what they do, I deplore it, but you need to respect your enemies in war. It seems like this is the first step in adjusting to the possibility of these people getting nukes. A nuclear attack on US soil, IMO, will start WWIII, and if WWIII happens, it's endgame for everyone. If we do not respect the possibility that these people can get nukes, and continue to treat them as if they're only capable of pinprick attacks, then we can't half-ass it like we've been doing; we need to kill them all before they can get their hands on that shit.

[Westside Steve]

Deal with it? If I were president (and I should be) I tell Netanyahu in private that if they take out Irans nukes we'll resupply them when the shit starts.

I'd also tell him, privately again, that we'll loudly proclaim public opposition.

 

I see, but I don't really think that'd help our image with the Islamic world (legit governments nor terrorist groups).

 

Who cares?

We could sell Iran some of our own nukes. Why not?

 

And selling them out will tell the Muslim Facists that all they need to do is kill a handful of civilians and the sane world will bend right over.

 

While it's a good and fine policy to say that we will not negotiate with terrorists,

 

We do it all the time.

But bend over? I think not.

 

 

I think it often gets interpreted as having no respect whatsoever for these people. Don't get me wrong here, I don't respect what they do, I deplore it, but you need to respect your enemies in war. It seems like this is the first step in adjusting to the possibility of these people getting nukes. A nuclear attack on US soil, IMO, will start WWIII, and if WWIII happens, it's endgame for everyone.

 

And realistically it's about due in historic terms.

 

 

If we do not respect the possibility that these people can get nukes, and continue to treat them as if they're only capable of pinprick attacks, then we can't half-ass it like we've been doing; we need to kill them all before they can get their hands on that shit.

 

 

And turning on the middle easts only semblance of democracy while giving Iran a pass will hasten the inevitable.

IMO.

WSS

[VaporTrail]

Who cares?

 

The people raising their children to hate us? The opinions of these children as they grow up? Not everyone born over there becomes a terrorist.

 

We do it all the time.

But bend over? I think not.

 

This one's tough. I understand that it's very hard to get anything through their heads. How do you threaten people when you don't know exactly where they are? They don't have an infrastructure you can attack. Bombing them into their caves only strengthens their resolve. IMO, there's not much at all that can be done to stop these people from thinking this way, but we need to either try and change the Anti-Western sentiment that those people harbor or else this cycle's gonna continue indefinitely.

 

And realistically it's about due in historic terms.

 

Sorry, could you please clarify? Were you talking about WWIII or the lack of respect for Islamic extremists?

 

And turning on the middle easts only semblance of democracy while giving Iran a pass will hasten the inevitable.

IMO.

 

I think it'd hasten whatever shit goes on between Israel and its surrounding nations, but that doesn't necessarily have to involve us.

 

But you bring up a really interesting scenario, with Iran getting nukes, I think it'd be very tough to predict how that turns out. Aside from the whole Middle-East turning into a glowing crater, I would hope that the rest of the world wouldn't be so foolish to get caught up in the chaos.

[Westside Steve]

Who cares?

 

The people raising their children to hate us? The opinions of these children as they grow up? Not everyone born over there becomes a terrorist.

 

Nah. They gotta hate somebody.

Since the republic of Ireland turned into one of the most prosperous places in Europe the desire to go back to Belfast is pretty weak.

That was Hitlers plan (as much as he gets overused as an example).

YOu find a group to hate and blame for whatever economic woes the people have and focus.

Could be Blacks Jews Indians Asians, whatever you have.

 

You don't have suicide bombers in affluent nations for the most part.

Oh sure you find an occasional lunatic but it's like armed revolution.

No one is going to leave a green lawn a full fridge AC and heat and cable TV to get their asses blown up for a cause..

 

 

And realistically it's about due in historic terms.

 

Sorry, could you please clarify? Were you talking about WWIII or the lack of respect for Islamic extremists?

 

 

 

No VT.

The meaning is that it's time for another bench clearing war.

One that takes a lot of lives, millions.

We've had them pretty regularly since man walked upright.

We're about due.

 

 

BTW how about England? Nato? Poland? S Korea? Taiwan? We'd probably make the bad guys hate us a little less if we bailed on them too.

How much is the love of Ahmedinijad OBL KSM and Hamas worth?

 

 

WSS

[VaporTrail]

Nah. They gotta hate somebody.

Since the republic of Ireland turned into one of the most prosperous places in Europe the desire to go back to Belfast is pretty weak.

That was Hitlers plan (as much as he gets overused as an example).

YOu find a group to hate and blame for whatever economic woes the people have and focus.

Could be Blacks Jews Indians Asians, whatever you have.

 

You don't have suicide bombers in affluent nations for the most part.

Oh sure you find an occasional lunatic but it's like armed revolution.

No one is going to leave a green lawn a full fridge AC and heat and cable TV to get their asses blown up for a cause..

 

No VT.

The meaning is that it's time for another bench clearing war.

One that takes a lot of lives, millions.

We've had them pretty regularly since man walked upright.

We're about due.

 

Aye, I'll agree with you on that. Though it really scares the living shit out of me because a bunch of nations have nuclear weapons. If one goes off, it's really hard to see it not setting off a chain reaction of more of em.

 

 

BTW how about England? Nato? Poland? S Korea? Taiwan? We'd probably make the bad guys hate us a little less if we bailed on them too.

How much is the love of Ahmedinijad OBL KSM and Hamas worth?

 

I still think it's worth not blindly supporting Israel. If we are going to do it, then we need to be willing to go to war with Iran, and we need to be willing to fight them to the bitter end. And looking at the current state of our armed forces, we're in no position to win a conventional war against them.

 

I guess I just see it as a situation that can be contained to the Middle East and away from us. Though I'd be hard pressed to come up with an argument against your other examples. I suppose, as a whole, it isn't realistic to think we can just remove ourselves from everything, just wishful thinking. I guess I do expect this to boil over, too. It just sucks. It just pains me to think that everything the human race has come to achieve can be wiped off the face of the earth in a matter of days.

 

 

[calfoxwc]

ah. BLIND support.

 

Like the use of British passports (alleged) to enter a country to kill

 

a terrorist?

 

Can't support that. That could send the country entered into

 

an angry footing with Britain.

 

I wouldn't support that, and would be very upset if it had been American passports.

 

We have enough trouble.

 

But, the bulldozing of homes to uncover the entrances to tunnels being used by

terrorists?

 

I agree with that, and I don't give a frickin if any Muslim country doesn't like it.

 

If they don't like it, they shouldn't like "Muslim" terrorists, and should refuse to support them

 

in the least, and prosecute them for sure.

 

but they don't.

 

Israel deserves our support when they are DEFENDING themselves.

 

And telling them to unilaterally give up the planned settlements is HURTING any chance of peace.

 

Meanwhile, former Mayor Koch from New York, says, that though he advised the Jewish population there

 

to support Obamao beause he'd be just as good a supporter of Israel...

 

he changed his mind. Now he says, Obamao is making Israel a pariah, and Mccain would have been

 

a better president. Which, isn't saying much ... @@

[VaporTrail]

And telling them to unilaterally give up the planned settlements is HURTING any chance of peace.

 

I really don't think there is any chance of peace, all of it is prolonging the inevitable. But do you really see this as helping any chances of peace? If we were to support the Israelis, that'd just incense everyone on the other side of the fence.

[calfoxwc]

Well...

 

I don't see peace across the board. The Bible says there won't be peace...

 

but the terrorists are already outraged that Jews still exist on this planet.

 

Israel can't possibly make them much MORE enraged.

 

I would, if I had the voice, and he cared a dang about America and Americans....

 

warn Obamao that his negative, antagonistic disposition per Israel... is dangerously

 

close to telling the terrorists that the time to obliterate Israel once and for all...

 

is now, while he is still president.

[VaporTrail]

Well... I don't see peace across the board. The Bible says there won't be peace...

 

I don't see what that has to do with anything.

 

but the terrorists are already outraged that Jews still exist on this planet. Israel can't possibly make them much MORE enraged.

 

I guess that's true.

 

I would, if I had the voice, and he cared a dang about America and Americans....

 

warn Obamao that his negative, antagonistic disposition per Israel... is dangerously

 

close to telling the terrorists that the time to obliterate Israel once and for all...

 

is now, while he is still president.

 

I don't see this as Obama not caring about Americans, I see it as the opposite. Yes, it's only one thing in a sea full of bullshit that we are involved in, but he's making an attempt to move us out of the line of fire, albeit at Israel's expense. We won't ever see eye to eye on the necessity of backing Israel. I just think that if we're going to back them, we can't do this half-assed shit that we've been doing. I'd want to see all or nothing, and as WSS pointed out, it's probably going to happen eventually, since all this crap WILL boil over at some point. But what has been accomplished in terms of peace since the establishment of Israel? A big pile of nothing.

 

 

[VaporTrail]

Not to beat a dead horse, but just read this from Haaretz, Israel's oldest newspaper. Thought the numbers were interesting.

 

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1162733.html

 

Poll: Most U.S. Jews approve of Obama's approach to Israel

 

Despite claims that that Israelis are wary of U.S. President Barack Obama, a new poll released on Tuesday shows that most American Jews view their leader and his dealings with Israel in a positive light.

 

According to the 2010 Annual Survey of American Jewish Opinion, conducted by the American Jewish Committee, 73 percent of American Jews characterize relations between Israel and the U.S. today as "very positive" or "positive."

 

In addition to this, 55 percent of American Jews approve of the way the Obama administration is handling U.S.-Israel relations.

 

In polls quoted in a New York Times article by former American Jewish Congress national director Henry Siegman from a few months prior, Obama is supported by only between 6 to ten percent of the Israeli public.

 

Despite American Jews' positive outlook on Obama and Israel-U.S. relations, their expectations for a resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is less optimistic with 72 percent of respondent saying their view on an improvement in the situation has remain unchanged since the previous year.

 

The majority of those polled agreed that the goal of Arabs is the "destruction of the state of Israel," with 80 percent believing peace cannot be achieved with a Hamas-led Palestinian government.

 

On the subject of Iran, American Jews are almost equally divided for and against the way the Obama administration is handling the issue of a nuclear Iran with 62 percent of respondents saying they would support Israel taking military action against Iran.