Bet thread

[Westside Steve]

come on Heck.... seriously constitutional law....... pretty heavy reading for anyone...... cal and company are not interested in studying anything objectively so constitutional law is WAY beyond them.

 

Unlike you , right professor?

 

So answer, brag boy, I don't expect the SC would consider it unconstitutional BUT I bet there'd be at least one or two dissenting votes if ut gets there.

 

So it's most likely not as cut and dried as your vast expertise might lead you to believe.

[heckofajobbrownie]

Well, it should make for an interesting bet then, wouldn't it?

[osusev]

Unlike you , right professor?

 

So answer, brag boy, I don't expect the SC would consider it unconstitutional BUT I bet there'd be at least one or two dissenting votes if ut gets there.

 

So it's most likely not as cut and dried as your vast expertise might lead you to believe.

 

Quite honestly Steve when it comes to Law.... I hire lawyers... Constitutional law..... no idea and the balance of states rights versus federal..... another heavy read subject that I am not qualified to answer....

 

I do happen to read and study a lot of things but not this.... (its a little dry for my tastes)

 

My gut feeling is that the Federal government IF they pass something of this magnitude they do hold a lot of leverage in terms of Highway construction funds that EVERY state needs (ie the minimum drinking age) that they can use......

 

As for Constitutionality ...... well the medicare expansion was passed federally those also in theory might have to be rolled back also...... I dont see that likely....... and federal criminal laws have seperate jurisdiction within each state...... as do tax laws.......

 

It just does not make any logical sense.....

[Pumpkin Eater]

Congress has no power to make someone buy something.

 

the 10th amendment limits the powers of the government to only those SPECIFICALLY granted by the constitution.

 

It doesn't matter if there is nothing in the constitution to prevent the government from requiring the purchase of health insurance. That's not the way our law works. The power has to be specifically given to congress BY the constitution for it to be legal.

 

The power of Congress include:

the powers to levy and collect taxes; to coin money and regulate its value; provide for punishment for counterfeiting; establish post offices and roads, promote progress of science by issuing patents, create federal courts inferior to the Supreme Court, define and punish piracies and felonies, declare war, raise and support armies, provide and maintain a navy, make rules for the regulation of land and naval forces, provide for, arm, and discipline the militia, exercise exclusive legislation in the District of Columbia, and to make laws necessary to properly execute these powers.

 

Sorry libs, forced health care is not constitutional.

[heckofajobbrownie]

Well, then. You can rest easy, huh?

 

Problem is, you've got the commerce clause, and you've got the provisions that give Congress the power to tax and spend money.

 

 

 

 

[Pumpkin Eater]

forcing someone to spend their own money is not a tax, it is not raising money for government operations. weak argument #1.

 

the commerce clause?

 

"To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes".

 

says nothing of forcing individuals to buy something. weak argument #2. the commerce clause give the federal gov't power to regulate trade between states. not force people to buy things.

[Mr. T]

I am suprised that nobody has mentioned the fact all student loans will be taken over by big brother.

 

Can you see another banker bailout on the way to stop them from losing any profits from this.

[heckofajobbrownie]

Yes, health care is a taxing and spending issue because it involves ...taxing and spending. But you guys can imagine this is unconstitutional all you like. You're just setting yourself up for another crushing disappointment.

 

As for the student loan bill, this is a great idea. Let's unpack it for those who have better things to do than go through student loan bills. I'm guessing T doesn't know anything about it other than what he's been told to be afraid of, but there's nothing to be afraid of.

 

First of all, the government has always been deeply involved in the student loan business, guaranteeing every loan private lenders made to students. (No one like T seemed to care about the "government takeover" then.)

 

What is going to change is that we're no longer going to pay billions in taxpayer money to private lenders to service these loans, and back them to the tune of 97 cents on the dollar. Now the government is simply going to make the loans themselves. We're eliminating the step in the middle, which is mostly useless and wasteful.

 

Eliminating this step, and loaning the money straight to students, saves $60 billion dollars over the next decade. And that money is going to go into more Pell grants, making more money available for student loans, making repayment terms easier, and some money will be even left over to put towards deficit reduction.

 

And no more kickback scandals. Remember those? Some of these lenders had to pay millions in fines.

 

Again, if you're a lunatic who freaks out every time the government performs a function it's fully capable of performing, you probably hate this, even though employing the private lenders is more expensive, led to countless problems, and they often gouged students with unpredictable rate hikes.

 

Now we're going to save money, the system will be easier to understand for students, and the repayment terms will be more friendly. And at a time when college costs go up and up every year. Good policy, no?

 

Plus, any private bank that wants to get in the student loan business by raising private capital is still free to do so. They're just no longer going to have the taxpayers to back them for providing a service that we don't really need them to provide anyway.

 

This is a win for the government, it's a win for taxpayers, and it's a win for students.

 

Thanks, Democratic Congress.

[Kosar_For_President]

I am going to have to agree with Heck here. The government has always had a hand in backing student loans. And might I add, unlike health care, going to school is optional.

[heckofajobbrownie]

Don't worry, Kosar. We won't make it a habit.

 

It was a nice gig for the lenders - loan out some money, mess with the rates, and if the student defaults, the government pays you back anyway. Who wouldn't want to keep that gravy train running?

 

Some people wanted to continue this charade, including some Democrats who, oddly enough, come from states where these lenders reside. Imagine that!

 

Thankfully they, and the Republicans, have lost this one. And we just saved $60 billion dollars, which will be mostly given back to students in the form of more Pell Grants.

 

But hey, some people won't be able to run around mumbling about free markets anymore. Even though this wasn't a free market to begin with. And that makes them sad.

 

Oh, well.

[Mr. T]

And we just saved $60 billion dollars, which will be mostly given back to students in the form of more Pell Grants.

 

 

Show me the money? It is like show me the llink to that statement. The gripe over this is that the profits which are enormous will be earned by Big Brother. Will they be taxed on profits since they are now the largest business in America?

[heckofajobbrownie]

That's from the CBO report. $61 billion over ten years would be saved. If you want a link, try Google and in a millisecond you should have a few hundred hits, since the figure is everywhere. The fact that you haven't seen it tells me you haven't been following this all that closely, or at all. Someone just told you about a "GOVERNMENT TAKEOVER" and that's all you needed to hear.

 

And no, this isn't going to be run as a traditional for-profit business, and non-profit lenders can also compete for these loans.

 

Any other questions?

[heckofajobbrownie]

come on Heck.... seriously constitutional law....... pretty heavy reading for anyone...... cal and company are not interested in studying anything objectively so constitutional law is WAY beyond them.

 

All they want to do is post op-ed pieces and parrot what their party politics are pushing toward the sheep.

 

I once thought you could actually reason and have a real discussion on the merits of each respective position........ but that is not possible.

 

No, of course not. Believe me, after five years, I know this. But I'm not here for reasoned discussion.

[Pumpkin Eater]

Yes, health care is a taxing and spending issue because it involves ...taxing and spending. But you guys can imagine this is unconstitutional all you like. You're just setting yourself up for another crushing disappointment.

 

 

Sorry, that is just weak. Requiring someone to buy something is not a tax. It doesn't matter what it involves or does not involve. Making someone buy healthcare is NOT any part of:

 

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States"

 

If Congress wanted to tax everyone and then buy them insurance, yes that would be constitutional. But they cannot make someone buy something, it's not in the constitution. They cannot do it.

The only examples congress has ever used a tax other than to raise revenue:

 

To regulate industry

to discourage industry

tariffs for protectionism

 

weak argument #3

[heckofajobbrownie]

Pumpin, go back and read what I read. The power to do this rests in the tax and spending provisions and the commerce clause.

 

You're reading the text of the Constitution, and disregarding years of legal precedent. These things are not as simple as looking at the original document as it was written in 1789 and saying, "Hey, that's not in there!"

 

It's just a conservative fantasy.

 

Wanna bet?

[heckofajobbrownie]

Also, do you want to stop for a second and think of two forms of insurance the government already makes you buy? (Hint: look at your paycheck.)

[calfoxwc]

One is a tax to provide a safety net.

 

The other is a forced procurement of a service, and a penality for not procuring it,

 

while setting up the abolishment of any competition.

 

egad.

[Mr. T]

Pumpin, go back and read what I read. The power to do this rests in the tax and spending provisions and the commerce clause.

 

You're reading the text of the Constitution, and disregarding years of legal precedent. These things are not as simple as looking at the original document as it was written in 1789 and saying, "Hey, that's not in there!"

 

It's just a conservative fantasy.

 

Wanna bet?

 

 

So which way will you have it?

 

Was or is Obama a Constitutional lawyer?

 

You are contradicting yourself from earlier posts saying that Obama studied the Constitution. Just like a crook studies a building so as to find an easy and undetectable way of entering.

[heckofajobbrownie]

Oh, for God's sake. Just a little self-awareness about how big a nut you are would do a world of good. Just a little.

[Westside Steve]

Also, do you want to stop for a second and think of two forms of insurance the government already makes you buy? (Hint: look at your paycheck.)

 

 

We aren't using SS and Medicare as examples of how government programs run efficently are we?

 

WSS

[Mr. T]

Oh, for God's sake. Just a little self-awareness about how big a nut you are would do a world of good. Just a little.

 

 

We have seen you flip flop back and forth on this for weeks.

 

 

Maybe you need to cut back on the self medication.

 

 

As you know a nice government doctor will help you.

 

 

Just take a number and they will call you in a few months

[heckofajobbrownie]

We aren't using SS and Medicare as examples of how government programs run efficently are we?

 

WSS

 

There's nothing wrong with the efficiency of Social Security. Taking in tax money and cutting checks to retirees isn't a hard thing to do. There's a long-term funding problem with SS because of demographic changes. And Medicare has far lower overhead costs than private insurance does. It too has a funding issue, and also a fraud issue.

 

But no, we're talking about something else entirely, namely that the government takes money to pay for both insurance programs out of your paycheck, and you can't opt-out.

 

That's more compulsory than the health care bill will be, and yet no one is suggesting that SS and Medicare aren't Constitutional.

 

Now, you can make the public/private argument if you want, and that auto insurance is different because it's a state thing, but I'm telling you that the chances that a federal court is going to rule that this falls out of the purview of the commerce clause and the taxing and spending provisions of the Constitution is extremely slim. Even with a conservative court that has been very "activist" lately.

 

But if you think I'm wrong, go ahead and bet me. Should be easy money for the charity of your choice.

[Westside Steve]

There's nothing wrong with the efficiency of Social Security.

 

 

Right.

Tell ya what, if I coulda put my SS tax in the shittiest passbook savings account the bank offered from the start of my working life I'd be retired in a mansion today.

But no shit the demographics have changed.

Good luck putting it back in line with the original plan.

You may have noticed government giveaways are hard to adjust.

That'd make retirement age what, 80?

 

But no, we're talking about something else entirely, namely that the government takes money to pay for both insurance programs out of your paycheck, and you can't opt-out.

 

Workmen's Comp? There's a well oiled machine. SSI disability? Another doozy.

 

 

 

But if you think I'm wrong, go ahead and bet me. Should be easy money for the charity of your choice.

 

 

Have I sid I think any of this shit will be declared uncinstitutional?

No.

So why harp on it?

If it makes you feel like you won an argument we aren't having go ahead.

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

That wasn't addressed to you, but to everyone. I was just anticipating the arguments/posts that would follow what I wrote to you. I don't imagine that you deny that a bunch of other people in here are making that argument, and have made it routinely for the last few months.

 

And the "retired in a mansion" thing is a fantasy. But I think you also miss the point of SS. It's retirement insurance. It's not a 401K, or an IRA, and it's not designed to be. It's base level of benefits that no working American can fall under.

 

And it's also not a "giveaway", but that's okay.

 

As for repairing the demographic/funding problems with it, yes, it's politically difficult to do that. That has more to do with who gets the benefits than the fact that it's a "government giveaway." After all, the defense budget is really tough to cut too. So is the education budget.

 

We're going to have to have some combination of tax hikes and benefit cuts. There's no other way around it but fantasy.

[Pumpkin Eater]

well, even if it is a tax, then Congress cannot legally exclude themselves from paying it, as they have excluded themselves from participating in Obama care.

 

What do you have to say about that?

 

 

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

 

How is congress being excluded UNIFORM?

 

 

[Westside Steve]

That wasn't addressed to you, but to everyone. I was just anticipating the arguments/posts that would follow what I wrote to you. I don't imagine that you deny that a bunch of other people in here are making that argument, and have made it routinely for the last few months.

 

Fair enough.

 

And the "retired in a mansion" thing is a fantasy. But I think you also miss the point of SS. It's retirement insurance. It's not a 401K, or an IRA, and it's not designed to be. It's base level of benefits that no working American can fall under.

 

Fantasy? I guess you'd need to crunch the numbers and show me.

 

And it's also not a "giveaway", but that's okay.

 

OK?

Actually if an "insurance" pays out more than it takes in it's a giveaway.

Real insurance companies are on the hook to make a profit to pay off claims.

 

As for repairing the demographic/funding problems with it, yes, it's politically difficult to do that. That has more to do with who gets the benefits than the fact that it's a "government giveaway." After all, the defense budget is really tough to cut too. So is the education budget.

 

We're going to have to have some combination of tax hikes and benefit cuts. There's no other way around it but fantasy.

 

Yep.

Cut the benefits but expand the number who get them.

Raise the taxes and stifle the growth.

Then expand the benefits base.

Then cut the benefite.

Then raise the taxes again.

 

Pass the Victory gin.

WSS

 

[Westside Steve]

BTW 2250$ annual investment is a million bucks at 65 years old.

But 5% of the mil should net 50 K yearly as income and no loss of principle.

Add another 225$ and you have 100K for the mansion.

OK it'll be a modest mansion.

(But that supposes you rent all your life)

 

 

 

I'll take it.

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

well, even if it is a tax, then Congress cannot legally exclude themselves from paying it, as they have excluded themselves from participating in Obama care.

 

What do you have to say about that?

 

 

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

 

How is congress being excluded UNIFORM?

 

How about this - you're just wrong. Does that work? Assuming I can tell what you're talking about.

 

Members of Congress are not exempt from the reforms. They're not excluded from paying for it, and they have to follow the same rules as everyone else, and they're not excluded from participating in the exchanges. In fact, they're forced to participate in the exchanges. When T posts something that describes the "health care gulags" that should probably tip you off that you should find your information elsewhere.

 

Republicans, with agreement from Democrats, put a measure into the bill that says that members of Congress and their staffs have to get their health care through plans created/amended by the bill, or the exchanges created by the bill. So they're actually the only people in this country who are forced to get their health care from this plan. Most of them will continue on with their existing coverage through the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program, which was amended by the bill. They're not allowed to buy private insurance outside of the exchanges. And again, this was a Republican amendment, and it didn't apply to the White House.

 

This is why I'm guessing the nuts are screaming about how the White House and committee staff are exempt from the reforms. They're not. They're simply not covered by the provision in the bill that the Republicans put in that specifically applied to members of Congress and Congressional staff. If you want to be upset that Leadership staff and Committee staff aren't forced into the plan, and simply have to abide by the reforms in the same way any other American would, be my guest. Let your fake outrage power your day.

 

So maybe you shouldn't get information from T. Just a suggestion.

 

Beating back the misinformation in here could be my full time job. There's something new every day, sometimes on the hour. And once it's proven false, no one ever says, "You're right. My bad." They just throw something else out there, because being wrong 20 times in a row never gives them any pause.

 

So what's next? Can't wait.

[Mr. T]

Here you go Heckles, since you are so ignorant you may want to catch up on your reading.

 

 

I placed a link below where you can read the US Constitution, the full text.

 

 

So before you start rambling about something you know nothing about you may want to refer to it.

 

 

US Constitution, the FULL Text HERE

 

 

 

 

[heckofajobbrownie]

Like I said, a little self-awareness would help.