The Savage Truth

[mopaji]

I just realized that there are people here defending Frye's ability and Savage's talent evaluations.

 

 

 

[timpiker]

I always liked Savage and the only thing that turned me against him was that dumba** move to pay DA big money instead of getting a 1 and a 3 for him. I knew then that DA was all smoke and mirrors for his 1 year of glory.

 

Coulda woulda shoulda but I do wonder what could have been if we let DA go for a 1 and a 3 2 years ago and how things might have been a lot different.

[Zombo]

and the biggest hole was qb

he took the home town boy get over yourself man, or just wait till heckett gets fired than you can change your opinion abbout him too

 

If the biggest hole was quarterback, why wait until the third round ... and then draft a sixth round talent?

 

Yes, he drafted us two "hometown" quarterbacks. And they won us about six games combined.

 

Now this Cajun is going to come in here and show us what we've been missing at the position.

 

Zombo

 

 

 

[jnuh]

For all you guys who thinks savage has a terrible eye for talent look at "King" Mikes drafts in seattle ...

 

 

Year 1999

 

RD 1 - Lamar King DE

RD 3 - Brock Huard

RD 3 - Karsten Bailey

RD 4 - Antonio Cochran

RD 5 - Floyd Wedderburn

RD 5 - Charlie Rogers

RD 6 - Steve Johnson

 

Year 2000

 

RD 1 - Shaun Alexander

RD 1 - Chris McIntosh

RD 2 - Ike Charlton

RD 3 - Darrell Jackson

RD 4 - Marcus Bell

RD 4 - Isiah Kacyvenski

RD 6 - James Williams

RD 6 - Tim Watson

RD 6 - John Hilliard

 

RD 1 - Koren Robinson

RD 1 - Steve Hutchinson

RD 2 - Ken Lucas

RD 3 - Heath Evans

RD 4 - Orlando Huff

RD 4 - Curtis Fuller

RD 4 - Floyd Womack

RD 5 - Alex Bannister

RD 6 - Josh Booty

RD 7 - Harold Blackmon

RD 7 - Dennis Norman

RD 7 Kris Kocurek

 

Year 2002

 

RD 1 - Jeremy Stevens

RD 2 - Maurice Morris

RD 2- Anton Palepoi

RD 3 - Kris Richard

RD 4 - Terreal Bierra

RD 5 - Rocky Bernard

RD 5 - Ryan Hannam

RD 5 - Matt Hill

RD 6 - Craig Jarrett

RD 7 - Jeff Kelly

 

Hopefully he does better here because those are some terrible draft classes.

[Zombo]

For all you guys who thinks savage has a terrible eye for talent look at "King" Mikes drafts in seattle ...

 

 

Year 1999

 

RD 1 - Lamar King DE

RD 3 - Brock Huard

RD 3 - Karsten Bailey

RD 4 - Antonio Cochran

RD 5 - Floyd Wedderburn

RD 5 - Charlie Rogers

RD 6 - Steve Johnson

 

Year 2000

 

RD 1 - Shaun Alexander

RD 1 - Chris McIntosh

RD 2 - Ike Charlton

RD 3 - Darrell Jackson

RD 4 - Marcus Bell

RD 4 - Isiah Kacyvenski

RD 6 - James Williams

RD 6 - Tim Watson

RD 6 - John Hilliard

 

RD 1 - Koren Robinson

RD 1 - Steve Hutchinson

RD 2 - Ken Lucas

RD 3 - Heath Evans

RD 4 - Orlando Huff

RD 4 - Curtis Fuller

RD 4 - Floyd Womack

RD 5 - Alex Bannister

RD 6 - Josh Booty

RD 7 - Harold Blackmon

RD 7 - Dennis Norman

RD 7 Kris Kocurek

 

Year 2002

 

RD 1 - Jeremy Stevens

RD 2 - Maurice Morris

RD 2- Anton Palepoi

RD 3 - Kris Richard

RD 4 - Terreal Bierra

RD 5 - Rocky Bernard

RD 5 - Ryan Hannam

RD 5 - Matt Hill

RD 6 - Craig Jarrett

RD 7 - Jeff Kelly

 

Hopefully he does better here because those are some terrible draft classes.

 

 

There's plenty of solid players in there.

 

Oh ... and you may remember future Hall of Famer Steve Hutchinson paving the way for League MVP Shaun Alexander when the Seahawks went to the SUPER BOWL with these players....

 

Zombo

[choco]

ya think thats worse than this?

 

2008 (Round Player College)

4 Beau Bell UNLV

4 Martin Rucker Missouri

6 Ahtyba Rubin Iowa State

6 Paul Hubbard Wisconsin

7 Alex Hall St. Augustine’s

 

2007

1 Joe Thomas Wisconsin

1 Brady Quinn Notre Dame

2 Eric Wright Nevada-Las Vegas

5 Brandon McDonald Memphis

6 Melila Purcell Hawaii

7 Chase Pittman Louisiana State

7 Syndric Steptoe Arizona

 

2006

1 Kamerion Wimbley Florida State

2 D’Qwell Jackson Maryland

3 Travis Wilson Oklahoma

4 Leon Williams Miami (FL)

4 Isaac Sowells Indiana

5 Jerome Harrison Washington State

5 DeMario Minter Georgia

6 Lawrence Vickers Colorado

6 Babatunde Oshinowo Stanford

7 Justin Hamilton Virginia Tech

 

2005

1 Braylon Edwards Michigan

2 Brodney Pool Oklahoma

3 Charlie Frye Akron

4 Antonio Perkins Oklahoma

5 David McMillan Kansas

6 Nick Speegle New Mexico

6 Andrew Hoffman Virginia

7 Jon Dunn Virginia Tech

[Zombo]

For all you guys who thinks savage has a terrible eye for talent look at "King" Mikes drafts in seattle ...

 

 

Year 1999

 

RD 1 - Lamar King DE

RD 3 - Brock Huard

RD 3 - Karsten Bailey

RD 4 - Antonio Cochran

RD 5 - Floyd Wedderburn

RD 5 - Charlie Rogers

RD 6 - Steve Johnson

 

Year 2000

 

RD 1 - Shaun Alexander

RD 1 - Chris McIntosh

RD 2 - Ike Charlton

RD 3 - Darrell Jackson

RD 4 - Marcus Bell

RD 4 - Isiah Kacyvenski

RD 6 - James Williams

RD 6 - Tim Watson

RD 6 - John Hilliard

 

RD 1 - Koren Robinson

RD 1 - Steve Hutchinson

RD 2 - Ken Lucas

RD 3 - Heath Evans

RD 4 - Orlando Huff

RD 4 - Curtis Fuller

RD 4 - Floyd Womack

RD 5 - Alex Bannister

RD 6 - Josh Booty

RD 7 - Harold Blackmon

RD 7 - Dennis Norman

RD 7 Kris Kocurek

 

Year 2002

 

RD 1 - Jeremy Stevens

RD 2 - Maurice Morris

RD 2- Anton Palepoi

RD 3 - Kris Richard

RD 4 - Terreal Bierra

RD 5 - Rocky Bernard

RD 5 - Ryan Hannam

RD 5 - Matt Hill

RD 6 - Craig Jarrett

RD 7 - Jeff Kelly

 

Hopefully he does better here because those are some terrible draft classes.

 

A little more on these drafts...

 

Hutchinson is a first ballot Hall of Famer, he got him with the 22nd pick.

 

Shaun Alexander rushed for 9,453 yards, scored 112 TDs, was a NFL MVP, set the single-season TD record, and has voted to the all-decade team ... he took him 19th.

 

Jeremy Stevens, Darrel Jackson, Rocky Bernard ... Super Bowl starters.

 

Many other key contributers.

 

You care to see how Heckert did in Philly?

 

Because I'd love to show you how Heckert did in Philly.

 

I mean seriously ... Hutch at #22 and Alexander at #19 and you criticize the man like you would have done better??

 

Zombo

 

 

[ATENEARS]

A little more on these drafts...

 

Hutchinson is a first ballot Hall of Famer, he got him with the 22nd pick.

 

Shaun Alexander rushed for 9,453 yards, scored 112 TDs, was a NFL MVP, set the single-season TD record, and has voted to the all-decade team ... he took him 19th.

 

Jeremy Stevens, Darrel Jackson, Rocky Bernard ... Super Bowl starters.

 

Many other key contributers.

 

You care to see how Heckert did in Philly?

 

Because I'd love to show you how Heckert did in Philly.

 

I mean seriously ... Hutch at #22 and Alexander at #19 and you criticize the man like you would have done better??

 

Zombo

 

You're reaching ... the combination of all of his picks listed above bore me. He left Andy Katzenmoyer on the table in 99' for crying out loud, lol.

 

Glad you found two safe picks though to color.

[jnuh]

A little more on these drafts...

 

Hutchinson is a first ballot Hall of Famer, he got him with the 22nd pick.

 

Shaun Alexander rushed for 9,453 yards, scored 112 TDs, was a NFL MVP, set the single-season TD record, and has voted to the all-decade team ... he took him 19th.

 

Jeremy Stevens, Darrel Jackson, Rocky Bernard ... Super Bowl starters.

 

Many other key contributers.

 

You care to see how Heckert did in Philly?

 

Because I'd love to show you how Heckert did in Philly.

 

I mean seriously ... Hutch at #22 and Alexander at #19 and you criticize the man like you would have done better??

 

Zombo

 

He drafted 2 studs that stick out on that list like a sore thumb. Everything else is nothing special. Stevens and Benard are nothing special, and DJ is a dime a dozen WR who never made a pro bowl. You are a big Bryalon hater and he is better then DJ so I don't know why you even mention DJ. Those Holmgram drafts were awful aise from hutch and shaun.

 

And who are the many other key contributors???

 

I hope to god Holmgram turns shit around or just stays quiet and lets Heckart draft.

 

[jnuh]

here are heckerts drafts as eagles GM I will post them for you. I cant find a list of undrafted rookie free agents he brought in. Which should also be factored in.

 

Brodrick Bunkley Florida State

2 Winston Justice USC

3 Chris Gocong Cal Poly

4 Max Jean-Gilles Georgia

4 Jason Avant Michigan

5 Jeremy Bloom Colorado

5 Omar Gaither Tennessee

6 LaJuan Ramsey USC

 

Kevin Kolb Houston

2 Victor Abiamiri Notre Dame

3 Stewart Bradley Nebraska

3 Tony Hunt Penn State

5 C.J. Gaddis Clemson

5 Brent Celek Cincinnati

6 Rashad Barksdale Albany State (NY)

7 Nate Ilaoa Hawaii

 

2 Trevor Laws Notre Dame

2 DeSean Jackson California

3 Bryan Smith McNeese State

4 Mike McGlynn Pittsburgh

4 Quintin Demps Texas-El Paso

4 Jack Ikegwuonu Wisconsin

6 Mike Gibson California

6 Joe Mays North Dakota State

6 Andy Studebaker Wheaton

7 King Dunlap Auburn

 

 

Jeremy Maclin Missouri

2 LeSean McCoy Pittsburgh

5 Cornelius Ingram Florida

5 Victor Harris Virginia Tech

5 Fenuki Tupou Oregon

6 Brandon Gibson Washington State

7 Paul Fanaika Arizona State

7 Moise Fokou Maryland

 

Defintly better then king Mikes drafts and on par or slightly better then Savage. I am definitly rooting for Holmgram/Heckert, but how much talent evaluators then Savage are they??

 

Also it is too early to call any of Savages picks future hall of famers because none of them have been in the league long enough, but you have to figure JT to be a sure thing if he continues to play the way he has to start off his career. If they inducted special teamers you would also have to say Cribbs would have a great chance being that he is arguably the best return man ever and is also great in coverage on special teams. He is a X-factor.

[Zombo]

He drafted 2 studs that stick out on that list like a sore thumb. Everything else is nothing special. Stevens and Benard are nothing special, and DJ is a dime a dozen WR who never made a pro bowl. You are a big Bryalon hater and he is better then DJ so I don't know why you even mention DJ. Those Holmgram drafts were awful aise from hutch and shaun.

 

And who are the many other key contributors???

 

I hope to god Holmgram turns shit around or just stays quiet and lets Heckart draft.

First of all, DJ wasn't taken third overall you dumb shit.

 

Sure, in addition to making two of the absolute best picks of the decade he had some misses in there too ... but who doesn't?

 

Do you remember who you are comparing him to?

 

Did Holmgen trade a first round and second round pick for a QB who won three games in three years?

 

Did Holmgren take a player third overall who led the league in drops two years in a row? At least DJ started the Super Bowl for the team that drafted him ... Braylon is in New York!

 

Seriously man, Savage sucked ... say it out loud.

 

Holmgren took Seattle to the Super Bowl and Savage gave us a team that went 4-12 his last year and then started 1-11 the next, due to the massive amount of talent he brought in.

 

Zombo

[ATENEARS]

If they inducted special teamers you would also have to say Cribbs would have a great chance being that he is arguably the best return man ever and is also great in coverage on special teams. He is a X-factor.

 

Cribbs wasn't drafted.

[professor_g]

Not to mention Romeo wanted to build a team a lot like Mangini is now but Savage wanted big, fast guys in skill positions regardless of their ability. It was a match made in complete hell and I will admit, I thought the Thomas/Quinn move was excellent at the time mostly because we got Thomas and Quinn should have been better than he is. But I didn't realize then just how bad he f'ed up this team's salary cap and how he mortgaged the future in order to move up with no real plan as to how to reclaim picks in the future. Mangini must have just shook his head when he saw the lack of skill and the contracts this team had when he arrived. I compare it to Barak and McCain running for president. Why would anybody want that job in those conditions? Mangini took it, and he busted his ass to correct it as fast as possible. Now Holmie is involved in a team that is much better off because of Mangini (who is not even a GM) and we have a legit franchise and future in this town again.

 

The 2007 season as exciting as it was, was nothing but a paper tiger of a football team. I can't remember a time when a team got by within an inch of their life so many times. Ball bouncing the right way etc. I loved it, but by no means saw a good roster or a foundation in place, especially on defense. Phil wanted flash and Romeo wanted IQ and character. I for one will side with the coach over the GM everytime. Phil just doesn't get it. He's a douche.

 

Good luck Philly. You have already made two questionable moves since you got that tool. McNabb could have gotten you much more in return and Hall is a 3rd and long pass rusher worth about the league minimum in salary and you lost Brown in the process. Then you threw in Gocong who Mangini has been eyeing since he entered the draft and who may very well be a 100+ tackle LB each year in a 3-4. Savage is a salesman and he gets people to listen, but he really has no clue how to build a football team. He gained all of his credibility with the Ravens and just how much did he deserve? I mean, they seem to be drafting and signing pretty well without him.

 

Every word here is right on, imo. I NEVER liked Phil. I thought he was smug and annoying as a person. The only move he made that I was really behind was the drafting of Joe Thomas. ALL of the other first-round picks were dubious at the time and since. It was terrible the way he threw Romeo, a very decent, likable guy, under the bus towards the end. Basically, he made my team much worse, and I think it's amazing that Mangini managed to turn that roster, that salary cap, and those paltry draft picks into a team that could win four straight games.

 

[jnuh]

First of all, DJ wasn't taken third overall you dumb shit.

 

Sure, in addition to making two of the absolute best picks of the decade he had some misses in there too ... but who doesn't?

 

Do you remember who you are comparing him to?

 

Did Holmgen trade a first round and second round pick for a QB who won three games in three years?

 

Did Holmgren take a player third overall who led the league in drops two years in a row? At least DJ started the Super Bowl for the team that drafted him ... Braylon is in New York!

 

Seriously man, Savage sucked ... say it out loud.

 

Holmgren took Seattle to the Super Bowl and Savage gave us a team that went 4-12 his last year and then started 1-11 the next, due to the massive amount of talent he brought in.

 

Zombo

 

You don't need to resort to name calling because you aren't able to formulate an opinion and instead keeping falling back on the same thing ... that Hutch and Shaun are great, but everyone else Holgram drafted as seahwaks GM pretty much sucked and he failed miserably at drafting everyone he picked but those 2 guys. Savage was a very average talent evaluator. Holmgram drafted terribly aside from Hutch and Shaun. And You are right everyone does have misses and I would rather a third overall pick turn out how Braylon turned out then be a complete miss which is what happened with all of our first round picks before Savage. And all you seem to do is focus on Braylon. If you look at the 2005 draft who would you have taken 3 overall? Personally the only guy I was drooling over in the first round of that draft was Merriman and he wasn't a top 5 caliber player. he was mid first rounder.

 

And another thing ... You are acting as if I think Savage is the greatest thing since slice bread. I just think he did an average job and didnt understand why people hate him so much. I want Holmgram/Heckert to suceed, but I wouldn't be suprised if they end up failing. Bottom line is we are never going to consistently be a good team without a franchise QB and Delhomme who is terrible, Seneca Wallace, and a QB we pick up in the third round isn't going to change any of that. We may have an average team that squeezes into the playoffs here and there, but we will never field a team that wins year in and year out until we have a franchise QB. Atleast Savage rolled the dice and traded back in to the first round to grab someone that had the potential to be a franchise QB (just a side note I never liked Quinn, but I understood the move and didn't hate on it when it happened)

[jnuh]

Cribbs wasn't drafted.

 

I know he wasn't but he was an undrafted rookie that Savage brought in right after the draft

[peterbell]

Phil's worst blunder was giving fat contracts to some..well.. bad guys.. and if were not for the INCREDIBLE job Mangini did cleaning out the trash, LETS FACE IT.. we would be in cap hell with barely any picks. I don't think many fans give Coach Mangini credit for the amt of work that he did last year with setting the Browns up in the FA market and the draft for 2010..Phil was not very good, which explains his new career.

[Riffer X]

Phillip was an atrocious GM, but by far his crowning glory was giving DA Scott Mitchell money when anybody with a brain knew the guy sucked ass.

 

He had an Oklahomo fetish.

 

He drafted guys that RAC 'n ROLLS had no use for.

 

He was out of his league treating the draft and free agency as his own fantasy football games.

 

He gave away too many picks to move up and get who he wanted---Guys like Glue Hands Hubbard.

 

He was a little control freak. I'll never forget when he hosted the Browns Backers event that was televised and he had all his scouts and guys like Trip McCracken there. He took a mike around to all of them and asked who the starting QB was for 2008 and they all had to say "DA". It was beyond queer, but he got to Joe Thomas last and he said "DA?" like what the fook are you talking about?

 

A glorified scout totally out of his realm as a GM. He also brought religion into his approach which is asinine for a guy in his situation. What if you are trying to sign a Muslim for god sakes?

 

 

 

[choco]

thats a good point riff....

 

 

its not so much that he was blind to talent...he did get us rubin in the 6th and some other late round gems. what he couldn't do was properly cast players to the scheme, as well as determine the appropriate value for those players. iirc, he traded up to get hubbard and rucker....traded insane value for quinn (which allowed dallas the services of felix jones).

 

phil was just poor...oh so poor at maximizing his picks. he got tunnel vision on someone, and did whatever he had to do to get them. picks the next year apparently had no value, cause the idiot completely mortgaged the future by leaving us with 4 picks.

 

and extra big thanks to Mr. Mangini for fixing phils xxxxups and getting us back some picks to build this team. he knew we weren't ready to win....phil apparently thought we were a player or 2 away from the superbowl.

[Zombo]

You don't need to resort to name calling because you aren't able to formulate an opinion

 

Oh, I have an opinion ... Savage was not "OK" ... he sucked.

 

And comparing him to Holmgren who found Hall of Famers at #19 and #22 when you consider Savage traded a first and a second to move up to #22 and take a QB that won three games in three years on the roster.

 

Joe Tomas and Braylon Esdwrds were both considered "cant miss" at #3 ... plucking All-Pros at 19 & 22 and having them lead you to the Super Bowl is a different story.

 

Savage was terrible and he leaft a terrible team in his wake .. not really up for debate, Juno.

 

Zombo

[jnuh]

Oh, I have an opinion ... Savage was not "OK" ... he sucked.

 

And comparing him to Holmgren who found Hall of Famers at #19 and #22 when you consider Savage traded a first and a second to move up to #22 and take a QB that won three games in three years on the roster.

 

Joe Tomas and Braylon Esdwrds were both considered "cant miss" at #3 ... plucking All-Pros at 19 & 22 and having them lead you to the Super Bowl is a different story.

 

Savage was terrible and he leaft a terrible team in his wake .. not really up for debate, Juno.

 

Zombo

 

Holmgram just coached a super bowl team buddy. He didn't assemble that team. His drafts were god awful and the Seahawks won it 4 years after he was GM. Are we now somehow comparing Holmgram as a coach to Savage as a GM? is that even possible?

 

Again all you did in your post was point the 2 players he drafted out of 4 years of players that panned out. For all you know JT, and Cribbs make the HOF and Savage is on par with Holmgram with finding HOFers. What is your argument going to be then??

 

My whole argument isn't even that Savage was a great GM, just an average one or slightly below average ... and that Holmgram with his body of work looks to be the same as a gm. And you have said nothing to disprove that. And if you look at there drafts its pretty evident that I have a valid argument.

 

Thank god Holmgram ain't the GM and hopefully stays away from Heckerts draft.

 

PS please do not include Shaun or Hutch in any future rebuttles, because I get it he drafted those 2.

[choco]

"He didn't assemble that team. His drafts were god awful"

 

alright, you can shut up now. if he didn't assemble the team, he's not responsible for the draft.

 

think before you post.....or at least proof-read it.

[Speedyd900rr]

"He didn't assemble that team. His drafts were god awful"

 

alright, you can shut up now. if he didn't assemble the team, he's not responsible for the draft.

 

think before you post.....or at least proof-read it.

 

 

Now that's funny.

[Flugel]

They were high-fiving him for picking up Alex Hall (he's a consultant for the Eagles now).

 

All I could think of listening to this guy is that if it weren't for Matt Millen having a job in Detroit,...he would have been Matt Millen himself. How many players who can't play did this guy draft?

 

LOL! Thanks Earl. Isn't that a marriage heading for turbulent waters in Philly. Think about it - that's a fanbase with the WORST football team in 1998. Mcnabb leads that SAME franchise to 10 postseasons and 5 NFC Championship appearances and Philly fan can still ONLY boo him because he's the winner that meant Ricky Williams is going to have to take his marijuana sebatical from another franchise. Meanwhile, those Retards requiring jail cells below the stands are too stupid to conceptualize that because they had McNabb instead of the overhyped RB, Brian Westbrook would become available to them a year or 2 later at rd 3 $. The most precious thing about it all is Villanova is located in Philly and there prolly still isn't 1 season ticket holder that knows they have a football porgam in spite of the epic draft steal in Brian Westbrook from Villanova.

 

All I can think of when it comes to Savage is his first message to us was something along this line (not exactly word for word but close):

"The reason I'm here is to better the draft for the Cleveland Browns. In doing so, we restore the developmental process of young players without overpaying while we restore chemistry and continuity in the process."

 

Then I look at what he did to our 2008 draft. No day 1 because we added a few dline FAs used to playing on 4 man fronts (Corey Williams, Shaun Rogers and Shaun Smith) and we traded up for Quinn in 07. Day 2 of that draft brought us 1 keeper - Rubin. THEN, he had us scheduled for just 4 draft picks in 2009 while the rest of our division seemed to be drafting a minimum of 10 guys apiece. How do you handcuff a coaching staff any better or quicker than that? In spite of it all, I liked being unbeaten in our last 4 outings of 2009.

 

IMO, Mangini did a pretty freakin good job overnight chnaging LBer from a weakness without depth to our defensive strength in 2009. He did it by bringing in guys like Matt Roth, undrafted rookie Marcus Benard, Jason Trusnik and rookie Kaluka Maiava. I thought he also did some real solid problem solving with putting Furrey into the secondary when we couldn't count on Brodney Pool again. I also saw Mike Adams emerge as a DB we could count on to play corner or Safety dependign upon the situation. We'll dress that up in 2010 - and we've got quite the head start.

 

Anyway, having 10 or 11 picks in this draft (possibly more with trade-downs) is going to be a real treat that opens up the opportunity for us to compete.

 

As you were...,

- Tom F.

[jnuh]

"He didn't assemble that team. His drafts were god awful"

 

alright, you can shut up now. if he didn't assemble the team, he's not responsible for the draft.

 

think before you post.....or at least proof-read it.

 

Holmgram was the GM untill 2001 ... The Seahawks went to the super bowl in 2005 FOUR years later ... He didnt assemble that team. 4 players were left from his drafts.

 

Maybe you should shut up now.

 

It would be like saying Butch Davis put together the 2007 Browns.

 

[Zombo]

PS please do not include Shaun or Hutch in any future rebuttles, because I get it he drafted those 2.

Apparently you don't.

 

They don't make the Super Bowl without either of them.

 

HOFers at #19 and #22.

 

Sure, Savage grabbed the can't miss Left Tackle at #3 ... but then traded a first and a second for a QB that won three games.

 

That's bad ... very bad ... franchise needing to reboot bad ... as opposed to your two best picks leading your franchise to a Super Bowl.

 

No one is saying Holmgen was a great GM ... but he made some great picks ... Savaged sucked.

 

Zombo

[jnuh]

Apparently you don't.

 

They don't make the Super Bowl without either of them.

 

HOFers at #19 and #22.

 

Sure, Savage grabbed the can't miss Left Tackle at #3 ... but then traded a first and a second for a QB that won three games.

 

That's bad ... very bad ... franchise needing to reboot bad ... as opposed to your two best picks leading your franchise to a Super Bowl.

 

No one is saying Holmgen was a great GM ... but he made some great picks ... Savaged sucked.

 

Zombo

 

They both made a couple great picks. but the rest of all there drafts savage out drafted him imo. Both of them made huge mistakes ... Savages mistakes were more along the line of shitty contracts though. He had a pretty decent eye for talent though. Keep in mind also that we haven't yet seen the ceiling on some of the guys Savage drafted such as Rubin and Harrison (both who think can be very good NFL players) I also think Savage got screwed with Romeo as his coach. Romeo was a bad coach and was hired right before Savage if I remember correctly.

 

And in regards to the Quinn thing ... He rolled the dice. And giving up a first and second for a first I would say is market value...or not much above it. Plus When that happen most people were drolling over that move. (Me and you probably agree we weren't excited its the only thing we probably do agree on) but at the same time I didn't mind he took the gamble and did it.

 

And I know you obsessed with the fact that with the third overall pick in a draft you are suppose to get a franchise player. If you look at the 2005 draft it is awful as far as high end talent. The only guy who came out of that draft that would be considered a franchise player would be arron rodgers and who knows if the Brownies would have drafted him and threw him right into the fire right away if he would have turned out how he did or more like Tim Couch. I remember Rodgers being a bit raw when he came out which is probably why he slipped. Braylon is still regarded as one of the better players to come out of that mess of a draft.

 

 

 

[Flugel]

They both made a couple great picks. but the rest of all there drafts savage out drafted him imo. Both of them made huge mistakes ... Savages mistakes were more along the line of shitty contracts though. He had a pretty decent eye for talent though. Keep in mind also that we haven't yet seen the ceiling on some of the guys Savage drafted such as Rubin and Harrison (both who think can be very good NFL players) I also think Savage got screwed with Romeo as his coach. Romeo was a bad coach and was hired right before Savage if I remember correctly.

 

And in regards to the Quinn thing ... He rolled the dice. And giving up a first and second for a first I would say is market value...or not much above it. Plus When that happen most people were drolling over that move. (Me and you probably agree we weren't excited its the only thing we probably do agree on) but at the same time I didn't mind he took the gamble and did it.

 

And I know you obsessed with the fact that with the third overall pick in a draft you are suppose to get a franchise player. If you look at the 2005 draft it is awful as far as high end talent. The only guy who came out of that draft that would be considered a franchise player would be arron rodgers and who knows if the Brownies would have drafted him and threw him right into the fire right away if he would have turned out how he did or more like Tim Couch. I remember Rodgers being a bit raw when he came out which is probably why he slipped. Braylon is still regarded as one of the better players to come out of that mess of a draft.

 

 

Sorry guy, Savage didn't outdraft anyone. We were like Mayberry with Barney Fife in charge. Take a look at the draft volumes he left us in 2008 & 2009. In 2008, he traded away day 1 and all we got left from that volume of 5 picks is Rubin. In 2009, he had us down to 4 picks until Mangini doubled it to 8.

 

Braylon Edwards ended as an apic disappointment and Wimbley had 1 nice season of looking like a 13th overall pick out of 4. And the way Savage described Brodney Pool and the player we saw were 2 completely different players.

 

In 4 drafts, he got 1 pick of the litter right with Joe Thomas as a #3 overall. Should that be so impossible? Not only that but he stunk at drafting olinemen and dlinemen (with 2 exceptions in 4 years: Thomas & Rubin). Jon Dunn, Chase Pittman Melila Purcell, Andrew Hoffman, Babe Oshinowo, Isuck Sowells, etc.

 

After telling us we would build THROUGH the draft - Savage put ALL of his marbles into LeCharles Bentley at Center. In doing so, he was made the highest paid free agent Center ever. The problem with that was Bentley got a career ending injury the first day of ctraining amp and we would seemingly audition 8 more guys with the last guy being Fraley. Even though we could pay most of the auditioners NFL minimum wage - Fraley wasn't leaving Philly for under a million $ right? So how much cake did we waste just on the Center position?

 

Perhaps the most unforgivable Savage error was starting this franchise off with Trent Dilfer as the starter with Charlie Frye on deck and DA in the hole. Phil's FA choices like Jason Fisk, Antwaan Peek, Shantee Orr, Shaun Smith, Corey Williams, Ted Washington, Donte Stallworth, Matt Stewart, etc just showed how often he overpaid players with better days in the rear view mirror.

 

The scariest thing of all is he was the biggest Jamarcus Russell fan on the planet. Savage needed to go - he was KILLING this franchise.

He wasn't a bad guy - he was just a horrible GM at this stage of his career.

- Tom F.

[mopaji]

I see some debate about Holmgren's draft history on here. Well, I think we can all agree that Holmgren wasn't very good when it came to GM and HC at the same time and from the way he has been talking since he came here, he understands that. He also seems willing to let Mangini and Heckert do their jobs drafting. I know it gets confusing at times because Holmgren does all the talking, but he isn't making the decisions here, he is only telling us what the team's direction and focus is.

 

If you have noticed, when it comes to personel questions, he defers to the coach or to Heckert. The only time he answers questions about players is when he is alone. And he has already had to backpedal a little bit on Clausen. I'll pay you a million dollars if you can find me Eric Mangini having to backpedal because he said too much, or Heckert giving you any real scouting report on a player not on this team right now. They don't because they are doing the work so they know what information to share, and what info to hide. Holmgren is only the messenger as far as the draft goes and so he will speak out of school at times. We see it as being a straight shooter, but in reality, he's the guy who has been elected to do the talking and this time of year, he's talking about something and doesn't have all the facts about. The draft.

 

All in all though, Holmgren doesn't have a good draft history but don't worry, he's not drafting for this team. The chain of command in the draft will go Mangini, some important team scout, Heckert, and then Holmgren. And that is typically how it goes on any team.

[Pumpkin Eater]

Savage was terrible. I can't believe that anyone would ever defend his drafting. He drafted maybe 3 genuine starters total.

[jnuh]

Apparently you don't.

 

They don't make the Super Bowl without either of them.

 

HOFers at #19 and #22.

 

Sure, Savage grabbed the can't miss Left Tackle at #3 ... but then traded a first and a second for a QB that won three games.

 

That's bad ... very bad ... franchise needing to reboot bad ... as opposed to your two best picks leading your franchise to a Super Bowl.

 

No one is saying Holmgen was a great GM ... but he made some great picks ... Savaged sucked.

 

Zombo

 

Ya know I was gonna let this thread go because its just going in circles ... but I happened to see Shauns numbers today ... and I dont think he had enough great years to even make the HOF. He had 4 or 5 great years. I'll give him the benfit of the doubt and say 5, because the borderline year was borderline in yardage, and high in TDs. (1175 yard and 16 TDs) 1175 is a good year for yardage but not a great year imo, but the TDs are great. 5 great years I dont think puts you in the HOF.

 

Just saying ... 2 HOFers made mikes draft look much better then only having one HOFer