Rare, But Important Demonstration of Intestinal Fortitude

[Chicopee John]

Groups Vow To Help Enfield Against ACLU Legal Threat

 

The Hartford Courant April 15, 2010

 

 

 

ENFIELD —

A First Amendment battle might be looming after the board of education's decision Tuesday night to hold high school graduations at First Cathedral in Bloomfield.

 

The board's earlier discussions about using the church for a graduation site again this year drew the attention of the American Civil Liberties Union and a second group, both of which threatened to sue the town for violating the principle of separation of church and state, which is rooted in the First Amendment. On Wednesday, however, the ACLU said it is unsure what its next step will be.

 

Meanwhile, the American Center for Law and Justice says it will defend the school district for free if the ACLU sues the town. The center, based in Washington, D.C., is a nonprofit group whose website says it is "specifically dedicated to the ideal that religious freedom and freedom of speech are inalienable, God-given rights."

 

The Family Institute of Connecticut has also urged the town to contest the ACLU's demands.

 

The six school board members who voted for First Cathedral — five Republicans and a Democrat — insist that financial necessity and time constraints drove their votes rather than ideological views on the separation of church and state. The three board members voting against First Cathedral are Democrats.

 

Chairman Gregory Stokes said the board set aside $32,000 for both graduations — for Enfield and Enrico Fermi high schools — in its budget this year, assuming they would continue to be held at the church.

 

"I hope the ACLU would understand that we're two months out [from graduation] and if they interfere, it would make it very difficult for us to hold a graduation ceremony," Stokes said Wednesday.

 

The town's high school seniors Wednesday had "a general feeling of triumph," said Meghan Ruff, tudent representative on the school board from Fermi High School.

 

Ruff and a classmate circulated a petition and found that the majority of students at their school preferred off-campus graduation sites. The petition went out after the board voted in January to hold the ceremonies at each high school. That vote was rescinded a month later.

 

ACLU staff attorney David McGuire said Wednesday, "We're still in the process of conferring with our clients and deciding what our next step will be." The ACLU said local families have made complaints about the use of the cathedral in the past.

 

"We're disappointed that after reaching a decision two months ago, the Enfield Board of Education has changed their mind and moved this graduation back to the church," McGuire said. "This decision is disrespectful of religious minorities and forces families and students to choose between attending graduation and being subjected to religious messages."

 

Board members said three factors led them to change their minds and vote for First Cathedral: the higher cost of other potential graduation sites; the offer of free legal help by the American Center for Law and Justice; and comments by many parents and students that they preferred off-campus sites such as First Cathedral because there are more seats for family members to attend.

 

Board members Judith Apruzzese-Desroches, Vincent Grady and Joyce Hall voted against First Cathedral. Apruzzese-Desroches said she was uncomfortable about unknown risks and the costs of a potential lawsuit.

 

Vincent McCarthy, senior Northeast counsel for the American Center for Law and Justice, said Wednesday, "There is no endorsement of religion that can be implied or expressed by the use of this facility." "This issue is solely legal," McCarthy said. "The issue is whether the use of the facility constitutes an endorsement of religion."

 

Peter Wolfgang, director of the Family Institute of Connecticut, said members living in Enfield contacted his office when the ACLU made its demand last year.

 

"They were very concerned that there was an attack on religious liberties," Wolfgang said Wednesday. He spoke at a March school board meeting and urged members to accept the American Center's offer to defend the district.

 

"The First Amendment is worth fighting for," he told the board. "Enfield is ground zero in battles that really affect the whole nation."

 

Copyright © 2010, The Hartford Courant

 

[Mr. T]

At a time when we as a nation should be turning back to God we get more of this.

 

Hebrews 12:5-10 (New International Version)

 

5And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons:

"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline,

and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,

6because the Lord disciplines those he loves,

and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."[a]

 

7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8 If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! 10 Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness.

 

Go at it heck..... I quoted the Bible.

[VaporTrail]

I can see why the ACLU is concerned, but if the school is really only doing this out of frugality and the church provides an acceptable place for a secular graduation ceremony, then it shouldn't be a problem.

 

At a time when we as a nation should be turning back to God we get more of this.

 

What? Why should we be turning back to the Christian god?

[Mr. T]

it seems as if this is the season every year where the ACLU goes hunting for cases like this. Could it be they smell $ or are they really interested in the seperation of church and state?

 

IMO: its greed.

[VaporTrail]

Or it's both. Give me an organization that isn't interested in making headlines or money. Separation of church and state is part of their agenda, anything they can do to get their name in a headline is good for their notoriety. Why do you think people jumped on the chance to sponsor a gay girl's prom or why did Bill O'Reilly pay for the court costs for the father of a Marine whose funeral was protested by the WBC? Do they think what they are doing is right? I would bet they do. BUt there's also the perk of looking like a white knight. Perhaps those weren't the best examples compared to this one, but all of these organizations/people live off of money and usually publicity leads to cash.

[Chicopee John]

What? Why should we be turning back to the Christian god?

 

IMHO there is only one God and that one God had one son, Christ Jesus - the living God.

 

[VaporTrail]

IMHO there is only one God and that one God had one son, Christ Jesus - the living God.

 

I believe that Jesus in all likelihood existed, either that or he is a sum of legends of numerous people, but he preached a decent message. As for the rising from the dead, being born of a virgin, turning water into wine, or whatever other miracles he supposedly performed, I don't believe a bit of it.

[Chicopee John]

I believe that Jesus in all likelihood existed, either that or he is a sum of legends of numerous people, but he preached a decent message. As for the rising from the dead, being born of a virgin, turning water into wine, or whatever other miracles he supposedly performed, I don't believe a bit of it.

 

You can still post here.

 

[heckofajobbrownie]

John, do you believe in the story of Mormonism? That God and Christ appeared to a teenage Joseph Smith in upstate New York in the 1820s, and eventually two angels gave Smith the golden tablets that he would later translate into the Book of Mormon?

 

Do you buy that?

[Chicopee John]

John, do you believe in the story of Mormonism? That God and Christ appeared to a teenage Joseph Smith in upstate New York in the 1820s, and eventually two angels gave Smith the golden tablets that he would later translate into the Book of Mormon?

 

Do you buy that?

 

 

So your point is to select a story and to try to paint me into a corner by answering one way or another.

 

There are many sects and many groups within Christianity. To cut through all the 'noise' certain groups like to create, I like to go to the source: the Bible.

 

I know that it is a compilation of stories over the course of many years. I believe it is sacred and was inspired by the work and will of God.

 

I don't know enough about the Book of Mormon - I have not studied it. However, why study it when the actual word of God is already available.

 

That's my faith and that's my belief, Heck. Why does it bother you?

 

[VaporTrail]

It's a book full of holes and contradictions, and was written by humans. There is a bunch of evidence that shows one part is not compatible with another. I'd encourage you to read Bart Ehrman's Jesus Interrupted or Misquoting Jesus to give you an idea of how skewed the Bible could possibly be. To hold it above error and as divinely inspired is an ignorant point of view. I'm not attacking you with that statement, but this is what is studied in seminaries, yet the knowledge is ignored by the priests in their sermons.

[calfoxwc]

I might have to read that book one day. Like I have time to read the 5 books I have on my "to read" shelf...

 

since I just had my knee scoped today, maybe I'll read in the morning for a few hours...

 

but saying "it's full of holes" makes me figure, that the only holes I know of, is the translation problems

 

from the original Hebrew and Greek languages, into English.

[VaporTrail]

Cal, the oldest gospel was written ~60 years after Jesus' death. That means that the story was passed orally for ~3 generations before it was actually written down. The other gospels were written from 40-80 years after that, and they each tell the story quite differently. There are thousands of ancient books that weren't accepted into the church Canon (like the other book of revelation that Dante's Divine Comedy is based on or one by Mary Magdalene). Why? You'd be surprised at how much of it was decided by politics and people with an agenda. The translation errors may be there on top of all of this. Many of the beliefs in the gospels are contradicted by Paul's letters. Christianity, as it exists, speaks more for Paul than it does for Jesus, IMO. But to say that you get your faith from the book means nothing to me unless you've actually read and studied what you claim to base your beliefs on.

[calfoxwc]

Actually, I get my faith from experiences and observations in my life, in the world, and about the world. @@

 

I got an education about God and His Son and the world from the Bible.

[VaporTrail]

...err that was an edit... Last sentence was meant for John.

[Chicopee John]

Cal, the oldest gospel was written ~60 years after Jesus' death. That means that the story was passed orally for ~3 generations before it was actually written down. The other gospels were written from 40-80 years after that, and they each tell the story quite differently. There are thousands of ancient books that weren't accepted into the church Canon (like the other book of revelation that Dante's Divine Comedy is based on or one by Mary Magdalene). Why? You'd be surprised at how much of it was decided by politics and people with an agenda. The translation errors may be there on top of all of this. Many of the beliefs in the gospels are contradicted by Paul's letters. Christianity, as it exists, speaks more for Paul than it does for Jesus, IMO. But to say that you get your faith from the book means nothing to me unless you've actually read and studied what you claim to base your beliefs on.

 

Well, I have read it several times, Vapor, and I do base my beliefs on it.

 

Live with it.

 

I stated that 'You can still post here" as a lighthearted way to put this endless conversation to rest.

 

Some folks should take a hint.

 

[osusev]

Seperation of church and state is a pretty big issue for me...... however I have attended my childrens play at church's. The facilities were more appropriate and frankly the building was beautiful.

 

IF there was not any messaging from the church and the facilities were being rented than who cares..... IF the church was strictly just a facility and it seems to be in this case.

[VaporTrail]

Well, I have read it several times, Vapor, and I do base my beliefs on it.

 

Live with it.

 

Well, I just wanted to point out how fallible that book is. I'd enjoy discussing this, but you seem to want to cover your ears and ignore what I have to say. How then do you decide what in the book to base your beliefs on? Surely, it isn't all of it.

[osusev]

Well, I just wanted to point out how fallible that book is. I'd enjoy discussing this, but you seem to want to cover your ears and ignore what I have to say. How then do you decide what in the book to base your beliefs on? Surely, it isn't all of it.

 

vapor your going down a predetermined trail with predetermined responses....... it will be better just to agree to disagree on that topic.....

[VaporTrail]

or we could discuss it.

[osusev]

Vapor you cant use logic or ask people to apply logic to something by its very nature illogical.

 

The "bible" most of them dont even know what it really is. Its funny how geocentric or even culturally offensive that religion is to other societies and the applied ramifications to other cultures and peoples who were never exposed to that eclectic set of stories literally copied from other religions.

 

They can not discuss or debate from a historic sense anything about their religion because it would invalidate their very beliefs.

[VaporTrail]

I don't have a problem with that.

[Westside Steve]

I guess we could discuss that there is no good or evil, right or wrong.

 

 

But that'd mean you guys couldn't spend all day bitching about how evil republicans are......

WSS

[VaporTrail]

Isn't that Cal's deal with Obama?

[Westside Steve]

Isn't that Cal's deal with Obama?

 

 

Well yeah Vape!

But Cal believes in universal good and evil.

WSS

[osusev]

I guess we could discuss that there is no good or evil, right or wrong.

 

 

But that'd mean you guys couldn't spend all day bitching about how evil republicans are......

WSS

 

the Republican Party is NOT evil..... The Radical Evangelical/Neocon right and old gaurd 45+ southern/rural white demographic IS not the Whole Republican party. They just happen to be the loudest..... however they seem to be morphing into their own party right now anyways.

 

The Republicans screaming about deficits but also want to keep lowering taxes........ Now they are laughable o yea and they want to keep Social security and medicare.

[smalls1129]

Vapor, I'm not sure what question you're asking. Is it merely how a book of ideas filled with contradiction can inspire?

[Westside Steve]

the Republican Party is NOT evil..... The Radical Evangelical/Neocon right and old gaurd 45+ southern/rural white demographic IS not the Whole Republican party. They just happen to be the loudest..... however they seem to be morphing into their own party right now anyways.

 

The Republicans screaming about deficits but also want to keep lowering taxes........ Now they are laughable o yea and they want to keep Social security and medicare.

 

 

 

Gee sorry Sev.

I guess I should have said without any concept of good and evil you'd have to quit bitching about evil old southern Christian white people.

 

{expletive deleted}

WSS

[VaporTrail]

Vapor, I'm not sure what question you're asking. Is it merely how a book of ideas filled with contradiction can inspire?

 

Not how, but why.

[smalls1129]

Not how, but why.

 

 

The way I take it is a book of life lessons. I try not to get too hung up on what many argue as "facts", ie the world was created in 7 days. I just don't believe that arguing either way about what I consider semantic evidence diminishes the book. The simplest way I can put my view is the example of the 10 commandments: no matter your religious belief I don't get how anyone can argue that those aren't 10 rules that if you live by will help maximize your human potential.