Day of Prayer Ritual Deemed Unconstitutional

[VaporTrail]

This isn't a judgment about personal morality. If you want to pray, go ahead and do it, don't feel guilty about it, you don't have to. The government just doesn't have any place encouraging people to take part in religious activities.

[calfoxwc]

So, by ALLOWING someone to do something, you are encouraging it.

 

so, you discourage it, so as not to ENcourage it?

 

College kids warp my mind.

[Westside Steve]

This isn't a judgment about personal morality. If you want to pray, go ahead and do it, don't feel guilty about it, you don't have to. The government just doesn't have any place encouraging people to take part in religious activities.

 

Just to enforce moral behavior ?

 

WSS

[VaporTrail]

Moral behavior? Good one.

[heckofajobbrownie]

Yes, if a government approves of a National Day and celebrates it, it's sanctioning that activity. It's approving of it. That's why we have a National Day of Prayer, and not a National Day of Animal Sacrifice.

 

The question then becomes whether you've crossed the line between sanctioning/recognizing it and promoting it over other beliefs - in this case, those of non-believers, or those who don't pray. The Constitution doesn't allow the government to have a preference.

 

It's also a question of whether the government should have any role in promoting this at all, as it's clearly a religious exercise. The government is only supposed to perform secular functions.

 

 

[calfoxwc]

A national day of prayer isn't a function.

 

It's a recognition of the right.

 

Now you will say that "A Nation under God" is a bad thing, too, right?

 

Since when is forcing our gov. to be agnostic, a freedom of religion/separation of church and state?

 

You'd be forcing the gov to take a negative stand toward those who founded this country,

 

and those who believe in the value of prayer.

 

You'd have to get rid of Easter... Christmas...Thanksgiving (some of those darn pioneers prayed ya know),

 

and you'll want to get rid of Labor day, because Mary was in labor with Jesus,...

 

and Memorial Day, because all those folks who pray for those who have been lost...

 

And Washington and Lincoln's birthdays because they prayed.

 

Martin Luther King day, or the gov is condoning/honoring a Rev who prayed.

 

All things must be fought against and argued forever about when you're a leftist.

 

What a sad way to exist.

 

 

[VaporTrail]

A national day of prayer isn't a function. It's a recognition of the right.

 

It's not only a recognition, it's an endorsement.

 

Now you will say that "A Nation under God" is a bad thing, too, right?

 

Yes. I don't believe in the Christian god. Why should we have to recite something that has only religious meaning if we don't mean it? Under god was only thrown in during McCarthyism because it helped to polarize the enemy even more.

 

How is this worse than what we're doing today?

 

Since when is forcing our gov. to be agnostic, a freedom of religion/separation of church and state?

 

Um, isn't that the definition of separation of church and state? Their principles, in theory, shouldn't overlap.

 

You'd be forcing the gov to take a negative stand toward those who founded this country,

 

You bring this up often, and it really isn't a valid point.

 

"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

 

"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." - Thomas Jefferson

 

"In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people." - James Madison

 

" The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity." - John Adams

 

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." - Benjamin Franklin

 

"...the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State - James Madison

 

"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together" - James Madison

 

Need I go on?

 

You'd have to get rid of Easter... Christmas...Thanksgiving (some of those darn pioneers prayed ya know),

 

I mean, I wouldn't mind seeing the government shift national holidays to only those that pay respect to American legends, but I really doubt that will ever happen.

 

and you'll want to get rid of Labor day, because Mary was in labor with Jesus,...

 

Now you're just being silly.

 

and Memorial Day, because all those folks who pray for those who have been lost...

 

lol, yes, because if anyone prays for me, then that means all my atheism counts for nothing. I mean, did you really just go there?

 

And Washington and Lincoln's birthdays because they prayed.

 

I am persuaded, you will permit me to observe that the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction. To this consideration we ought to ascribe the absence of any regulation, respecting religion, from the Magna-Charta of our country.

-- George Washington

 

My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer and stronger with advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them.

-- Abraham Lincoln

 

Martin Luther King day, or the gov is condoning/honoring a Rev who prayed.

 

 

All things must be fought against and argued forever about when you're a leftist. What a sad way to exist.

 

If that's how you think we feel, you are simply deluded. We're not here to discount people because they pray, that has nothing to do with this.

[Westside Steve]

Funny that you refuse to capitalize God, but forgot to bestow your little snark to Christianity.

 

 

WSS

[VaporTrail]

I didn't use a capital g for god because I was grouping him with all the other gods that ever "existed." If I refer to the Christian god by name, I'll use Yahweh or YHWH

[Westside Steve]

I didn't use a capital g for god because I was grouping him with all the other gods that ever "existed." If I refer to the Christian god by name, I'll use Yahweh or YHWH

 

So this non existing Deity has a name?

 

C'mon.

WSS

 

[VaporTrail]

Does Zeus have a name? Does Mario have a name? Does Tom Sawyer have a name? If you really wanna get into this, none of those technically exist either.

[Westside Steve]

Does Zeus have a name? Does Mario have a name? Does Tom Sawyer have a name? If you really wanna get into this, none of those technically exist either.

 

 

Actually I'm sayuing that I think you're just being snotty by not capitalizing God.

 

That's all.

 

In the same fashion one might upon meeting, ahem, Senator Boxer and purposely calling her Mrs. or Barbie.

 

WSS

[VaporTrail]

I'm giving the Christian god, God, if it so pleases you, the same respect that Christians give all other gods.

[calfoxwc]

Vapor, you are confusing belief in God, with religion.

 

People can pray to that deity they believe in.

 

I don't diss and ridicule other religions, but you lefties go

 

berserk with dissing Christianity.

 

Do any of us diss your worshipping Obamao? NO.

 

Would I think badly of you if you pray to him? No, because

 

when you find out what his "answer" is, you won't think he's

 

a deity anymore.

[Westside Steve]

I'm giving the Christian god, God, if it so pleases you, the same respect that Christians give all other gods.

 

 

Exactly my point.

Since Christians believe in one God they may well show their disrespect in the same fashion.

 

 

And I think Cal has a good point that often God is confused with religion.

WSS

[Mr. T]

Wiccans may worship many god(desse)s by many different names.

 

[VaporTrail]

Vapor, you are confusing belief in God, with religion.

 

Can you expand on this?

 

People can pray to that deity they believe in.

 

Okay, if that's what they want to do, it's fine, but not above my criticism, feel free to critique me as well.

 

I don't diss and ridicule other religions, but you lefties go berserk with dissing Christianity.

 

Not only Christianity, but that's probably what you'll hear most about seeing as it's the major religion of the country, and most of the people you know are Christian, and most members on this forum are Christian.

 

Do any of us diss your worshipping Obamao? NO.

 

I don't hold Obama as infallible or divine, like you do to God or maybe even the pope. I like much of what he's done, giving more government support to student loans, taking a step toward universal healthcare. There are things I don't like. Why are we not moving more troops out of Iraq like he said he would? Why are whistleblowers getting f*cked by his administration? He's not all-knowing, he's not all-good, hell I'd say that he's been doing a half-decent job since he's been in office, which is way more than I can say about the last guy.

 

Would I think badly of you if you pray to him? No, because when you find out what his "answer" is, you won't think he's a deity anymore.

 

He was never one to begin with.

[smalls1129]

Again, God doesn't signify one or any religion. Much like, Yahweh, it is a name given to a conceptual believe. Like the definition I gave Vapor in another thread it is just a name we give to a definition. Also, again someone please explain to me how praying signifies a religion so to violate the 2nd amendment. The 2nd does not say freedom FROM it says freedom OF. For this judge to rule in the manner she did presupposes the later. Also, if you are an atheist or even agnostic than you should have no problem any way, shape or form with any of this. To my knowledge there is no atheist 'sec' or religion. Since there is no religion there is not one that can be violated by the notion of pray or meditation in general.

 

I might be able to buy this ruling if praying was solely a Catholic or even Christian practice, but it is not, it covers (especially when considering praying and meditation signify the same purpose (in general)) practically all religions. Certainly enough to where having a National Day of Prayer doesn't equate to the government sanctioning one religion over another (again the purpose of the 2nd amendment).

[VaporTrail]

Again, God doesn't signify one or any religion. Much like, Yahweh, it is a name given to a conceptual believe. Like the definition I gave Vapor in another thread it is just a name we give to a definition. Also, again someone please explain to me how praying signifies a religion so to violate the 2nd amendment. The 2nd does not say freedom FROM it says freedom OF.

 

I think the point to take away from this is that people of any belief should not be discriminated against by the government for those beliefs. I would contend that since some Americans are atheists, that their religious beliefs of a lack of belief (ironic, eh?) should be respected too. I just think that the "of vs from" argument is really sketchy because atheists' beliefs are still religious beliefs.

 

For this judge to rule in the manner she did presupposes the later. Also, if you are an atheist or even agnostic than you should have no problem any way, shape or form with any of this. To my knowledge there is no atheist 'sec' or religion. Since there is no religion there is not one that can be violated by the notion of pray or meditation in general.

 

Yes, while there is no 'sect' of atheism, it's still a set of beliefs that gets infringed upon by encouraging us to pray. I am an atheist and I see no reason that a government should encourage me to go out and pray, it's a fruitless and completely religious activity as far as I'm concerned. If you're going to say, as a government, that you're going to treat all of the beliefs of every American citizen equally, then holding a special day of prayer singles out atheists because it's a religious function.

[calfoxwc]

Then I'm going to start a new religion - we worship freedom, and the prayer is that

 

the attempted economic and legal tyranny by the Obamao admin will be ruled unconstitional,

 

as an attempt to impose the statist religion of socialistic tyranny upon us.

 

Which violates our rights, since some of us don't believe in that tyranny.

 

Thusly, we have our rights to our beliefs, and they cannot be infringed upon.

 

The Obamao and leftist Congressional regimes are trying to impose their religion upon us.

 

Separation of Church and state, says I.

 

Gar-r-r-r-r. (crap. where's a pirate emoticon when you need it?)

[osusev]

Again, God doesn't signify one or any religion. Much like, Yahweh, it is a name given to a conceptual believe. Like the definition I gave Vapor in another thread it is just a name we give to a definition. Also, again someone please explain to me how praying signifies a religion so to violate the 2nd amendment. The 2nd does not say freedom FROM it says freedom OF. For this judge to rule in the manner she did presupposes the later. Also, if you are an atheist or even agnostic than you should have no problem any way, shape or form with any of this. To my knowledge there is no atheist 'sec' or religion. Since there is no religion there is not one that can be violated by the notion of pray or meditation in general.

 

I might be able to buy this ruling if praying was solely a Catholic or even Christian practice, but it is not, it covers (especially when considering praying and meditation signify the same purpose (in general)) practically all religions. Certainly enough to where having a National Day of Prayer doesn't equate to the government sanctioning one religion over another (again the purpose of the 2nd amendment).

 

 

Meditation is a mental exercise that some religions have incorporated but is not inherently religious...... Prayer to a "higher power" IS inherently religious which is why there is a problem with state sanctioning of prayer.........

 

Get over the fact that a federal judge is enforcing secularism......

[Mr. T]

Judge Crabb was using the First amendment for her argument.

 

Nobody was telling anyone they had to pray. Plus the National day of prayer isn't a violation of the first amendment. It neither creates or endorses a national religion.

 

Christians, Jews, Muslims all pray. I would bet that even Scientologists, Buddhists and Atheists meditate.

 

It is no different than saying "One Nation Under God" or saying "God Bless America".

 

[VaporTrail]

Judge Crabb was using the First amendment for her argument.

 

Nobody was telling anyone they had to pray.

 

Agreed.

 

Plus the National day of prayer isn't a violation of the first amendment.

 

Yes, it is.

 

It neither creates or endorses a national religion.

 

That's not the issue. While it doesn't endorse a national religion, it does endorse religion.

 

Christians, Jews, Muslims all pray. I would bet that even Scientologists, Buddhists and Atheists meditate.

 

Have you read anything sev or I have said? Meditation isn't inherently religious, prayer is. That's why the government endorsing prayer is unconstitutional.

 

It is no different than saying "One Nation Under God" or saying "God Bless America".

 

I agree, and I think that the nation under god should be removed from the pledge and in god we trust taken off our money.

 

 

[DieHardBrownsFan]

Judge Crabb was using the First amendment for her argument.

 

Nobody was telling anyone they had to pray.

 

Agreed.

 

Plus the National day of prayer isn't a violation of the first amendment.

 

Yes, it is.

 

It neither creates or endorses a national religion.

 

That's not the issue. While it doesn't endorse a national religion, it does endorse religion.

 

Christians, Jews, Muslims all pray. I would bet that even Scientologists, Buddhists and Atheists meditate.

 

Have you read anything sev or I have said? Meditation isn't inherently religious, prayer is. That's why the government endorsing prayer is unconstitutional.

 

It is no different than saying "One Nation Under God" or saying "God Bless America".

 

I agree, and I think that the nation under god should be removed from the pledge and in god we trust taken off our money.

 

Tough. It won't be.

[Mr. T]

You still gotta love the misguided ones who feel that we need to be fair.

 

 

Here is an ideal, all of those liberals who feel that the world is not neutral enough should stay silent so they wont offend anybody.

[VaporTrail]

Tough. It won't be.

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see it removed in the next 10-15 years.

 

You still gotta love the misguided ones who feel that we need to be fair.

 

What are you talking about? Advocating equality of treatment of people of every religion or lack thereof = misguided? Okay.

 

Here is an ideal, all of those liberals who feel that the world is not neutral enough should stay silent so they wont offend anybody.

 

Yes. You've hit the nail on the head.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

I wouldn't be surprised to see it removed in the next 10-15 years.

 

 

 

What are you talking about? Advocating equality of treatment of people of every religion or lack thereof = misguided? Okay.

 

 

 

Yes. You've hit the nail on the head.

 

I think you're in for a shocker. Some atheist from San Francisco tried to sue to have them removed a few years back and lost. It will never happen, not in your lifetime. Sorry. You can always move to a more atheist friendly country (are there any?). The majority of people in this and all countries are not atheist. You are a small minority.

[VaporTrail]

I think you're in for a shocker. Some atheist from San Francisco tried to sue to have them removed a few years back and lost. It will never happen, not in your lifetime. Sorry. You can always move to a more atheist friendly country (are there any?). The majority of people in this and all countries are not atheist. You are a small minority.

 

So I should just give up and move out? Nope, we're a growing minority. Some estimates have shown that we are up to 15% of voters, though it's more likely ~10%. How atheists were perceived between today and 10 years ago is completely different. Obviously we're starting to gain respect in the world of politics as shown by Obama taking time to meet with us. You can plug your ears and close your eyes and pretend that the number of faithful isn't shrinking and the number of godless isn't growing, but you'd be wrong. I feel that secularists will have even more muscle 10 years from now.

[osusev]

It will grow Vapor much to the chagrin of religious types...... Education and scientific advancement have a direct relationship to degrading religious control......

 

Seriously the "dark" ages were glorious for religions for a reason...... ignorance enhances their value proposition......

 

why do you think they have fought scientific growth for the last few thousand years? Why do you think they pushed the Intelligent Design PR campaign into education? They were losing ground to generations of children being taught to think ......CRITICALLY by science..... they can not stand that.

 

Dogma and fables written by humans who would have worshipped a plane as a chariot of gods a few hundred to thousands of years ago is not exactly critical thinking......

 

Of course they know they cant stand up to historical or scientific scrutiny so they use catch all concepts like Faith to turn of inquisitive or critical thinking to logic that does not stand up to observation.

 

It will grow as long as education and science grows.......... Missionaries teach 3rd wold countries with food and from the Bible for a reason..... they dont want to teach from real education curriculum for a reason.

[calfoxwc]

"critical thinking"... used by Sev... I...

 

 

....wait... I just can't.................

 

 

..........................................

 

 

ROF,LMAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

sorry, I tried to stifle it.