Jump to content
THE BROWNS BOARD

Phil Savage Drafts


Sony Reed

Recommended Posts

Guest Aloysius

Anyway, I don't think the argument for firing or demoting Savage is that he doesn't draft well. It's that he hasn't done a very good job in the non-scouting aspects of the job: the KW2 situation, the nasty e-mail, throwing Crennel under the bus over the radio, etc.

 

If anything, the one personnel critique I'd make is that Savage seems to have gone from being too worried about screwing up to being too incautious in thinking he could build a SB winner. With the '05 draft, he was so worried about picking the right guy at #3 that he didn't devote as much attention to scouting the later picks, resulting in a wasted Second Day. And last offseason, he was so convinced that the Browns were on the cusp of great things that he didn't take the picks for DA & swung for home-runs with Donte' Stallworth & Corey Williams. But hindsight is 20/20, and you could explain that away as the growing pains of a young GM.

 

However, I find it harder to explain away the management/media stuff. It seems like Savage isn't cut out for that part of the job, and maybe the team would be better off if Savage formally handed over those responsibilities to someone else.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 131
  • Created
  • Last Reply

the only question is how well savage would handle being only the director of player personnel. i doubt he'd take it particularly well, seeing as he seems a bit of an egomaniac.

 

i bet he thinks he's not doing horribly as GM and thinks the PR stuff isn't entirely his fault.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Aloysius
the only question is how well savage would handle being only the director of player personnel. i doubt he'd take it particularly well, seeing as he seems a bit of an egomaniac.

 

i bet he thinks he's not doing horribly as GM and thinks the PR stuff isn't entirely his fault.

I think you're right about that, which puts Lerner in a very difficult position.

 

Adding another element to the story, Lerner's first choice for GM may be available:

 

There’s a growing sentiment around Foxborough that personnel chief Scott Pioli could be tempted into leaving the Patriots this offseason to take over as general manager for another organization. Although he’s regarded as one of the premier talent evaluators in the league, he has never received nearly the type of credit for the Patriots’ success as his close friend Bill Belichick.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

pioli would be a major coup. he knows how to find guys for the 3-4 and has had great success in new england. if he's feeling underapreciated, i would hope we'd go after him.

 

i like savage for his talent evaluation, but pioli's even better. he's built champions from nothing in new england. while i know part of that is coaching, he's still been the guy to set the tone for the organization and put together the talent.

 

having him would be interesting if only to see what he thinks of the current roster.

 

i also would trust him to pick a great coach, even if it's someone who's failed elsewhere or a complete newbie.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tom, get a grip man.

 

I would have been fine but I noticed your ending with an insult so don't SET the tone and cry when it's returned.

 

I gave you countles facts backing my opinion so you called them a rant. That's how you argue and I'm not like Heck that feels the need to give you compliments and smiley faces every time he disagrees with your opinion just so you won't throw a fit. Do you want to talk football or play Romper-room?

 

You keep assuming there is NOT a GM out there and I told you if we've found successful GMs before - they'll be some available in the future.

 

If Miami had your thinking after 1-15 - where would they be Tupa? So by all means - let's pretend another hotshot coordinator form a utopian environment and a GREAT Supervisor above him comes here and turns washed up players and bad draft picks into perfect draft picks. That being the case, is God available? I LOVE the idea of Cowher BUT when he felt he had an incompetant personnel guy named Donahoe - guess what happened? Donahoe got fired so I'm not sure why there's so much BLIND love and loyalty to Phil. If RAC didn't know how to coach talented players - would he have been a candidate in the first place? Did he REALLY forget every ounce of how to coach GOOD players or does he REALLY have GOOD football players? That doesn't excuse him or make me want him to stay Tupa BUT what is going to make the next guy any better if we only have a 2007 draft worth being happy about in 4 years?

 

What TALENTED players did you see WINNING either 10-6 ballgame this year? I only need 1 name from a roster I keep hearing has such an abundance. Talk to me: who?

- Tom F. (We know GOOD football players when we see them. The 80s made me LOVE this team. This roster isn't anything like that NOR is the character of the team)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Great breakdown Flugs. The list of GMs better than Phil is now at an astounding ZERO. You make a great case.

 

6 Pro Bowlers. 10 wins a year ago. Enough talent to beat the Giants this year despite all the injuries. You cant make the case that there is no talent on this team.

 

Who do you want to replace Savage? Is there more than 1 or 2 guys available that you would consider, that have a better track record than him? Are there more than a handful in the league that have a better track record? Oops, I'm making you uncomfortable by asking for relevant facts, not just random ones. I apologize. I'll go play romper room (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean) while you spend the rest of the day typing an unresponsive epic.

 

Honestly, I dont think you do want to replace Phil. Looking back at your first post on this thread, you seem as happy with him as most. His recent drafts were solid and he drafts high character guys more often than not. Now I'm left wondering why you were so upset when I said that people that wanted to replace PS should offer stronger evidence. It didnt even apply to you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awesome post Flugel. When I read that I am instantly hit by the sheer amount of garbage players Phil has brought in through the draft and free agency. He has made a few nice picks, but what GM doesn't? He's below average and coupled with the way he has behaved this year and how he won't fire Romeo, well, in my book, he's garbage.

 

EDIT: Tupa, what planet are you on bro. Marty could come in and handle business easily.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Great breakdown Flugs. The list of GMs better than Phil is now at an astounding ZERO. You make a great case.

 

6 Pro Bowlers. 10 wins a year ago. Enough talent to beat the Giants this year despite all the injuries. You cant make the case that there is no talent on this team.

 

So again, I have you down for saying Bill Parcells did NOT happen to the 1-15 Miami Dolphins; because it differs from your opinion that there will never be another suitable GM for a program in need. If they used the Tommy Tupa theory they'd still have their heads in the sand justifying 1-15 because the world ran out of GMs. I like my side of this arguement better because I'm really using a RECENT fact to prove there's ALWAYS somebody.

 

If that one isn't good enough, I'm reading a Lindy's 2008 Preseason football magazine right now that tells me the following on page 56: "Blanc hired first-time General Manager (Thomas Dimitroff), first-time Head Coach (Mike Smith) and signed off on ridding the roster of nearly everybody and anything that reminded him of last season." Again, this would be a FACT showing you GM candidates we don't KNOW about exist for the serious owners to hire. It doesn't matter if I knew who Mike Smith was or Dimitroff was as long as they existed right? That's why I had to laugh and ask "are you serious?" If that was my job and the success of my business was riding on it - I'd give you all the names you needed. Unfortunately I don't live in the multi millionaire's club that does this for a living so I can't tell you names - I can just tell you that you're being absolutely silly for implying GOOD GM candidates don't exist simply because we don't know their names. That's absurd and you know it. SERIOUS owners found the right guys - that's ALL we as fans need to concern ourselves with. Did you even know who Mike Smith was? I'll be honest I didn't. There was a time nobody knew who Bill Polian was either - should Buffalo have adopted the Tupa logic saying if Tom Flugel doesn't KNOW who he is they can't hire him? I'm flattered but don't make a fool of yourself over it.

 

How about you and I place a wager for all to witness. I'll let you have the side that says there will NEVER be a new NFL GM/Personnel Director hired that gets a team out of transitional chaos efficiently. I'll use the Christopher Columbus approach and tell you the GM world isn't flat so they don't fall off the earth. More specifically, there will be some VERY good GM/Personel Directors to emerge much like a Pioli did in NE and these 2 newbies problem solving wiht grades of A+. You say there won't be another GM. You're very confident with yourself so all I can say about this bet is run it!

 

The only question I have remaining is how much money do you want to bet me? Put up or whimp out.

- Tom F. (How many of the 8 teams that beat us got handed a loss by Roger Goodell because we had 6 Pro Bowlers from 2007's candyass schedule? And how come Tenn is winning AFTER benching their 2006 Pro Bowl QB? How many guys on our 2002 playoff team made the Pro Bowl?)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Show me where I said there was no one Flug. It must be easy to win an argument when you can make up shit to shoot down.

 

It is possible to improve at the GM position. But the fact that it has happened before doesnt mean it works every time, or even more often than not. You would be happy if Lerner brought in an unknown? You would assume that was improving our chances? You're out of your mind.

 

Miami brought in BILL PARCELLS. Show me another Bill Parcells and I'll jump on your bandwagon. My point isnt that Phil is irreplaceable, but that it is stupid for people to say he drafts bad just because he misses sometimes. If they want to say he draft poorly, they should be able to show GMs that do a better job. Parcells knows football better than Savage. I am in 100% agreement with that. Pioli/Belichek is better than Savage (though even they miss all the time. Just ask Chad Jackson.) But booting Phil because maybe there is somebody out there who Lerner might pick and could possibly do a marginally better job sounds like a stupid idea to me. Under your reasoning, bad teams should have a revolving door in the front office. Everytime they have a losing season, they should bring in Joe Shmoe to replace him.

 

There are two points here which have become muddled.

 

1) Some are arguing that Phil is a bad GM. Showing that he has missed on some draft picks doesnt prove this because everyone misses sometimes. In fact, depending on your criteria, everyone misses most of the time. So be more specific than naming players you dont like.

 

2) Some people want to replace Phil. If you want to do this, tell me who you want to replace him with. Flugs trusts that Lerner can pick an unknown to turn us around. Forget that it almost never works, Flugs sees where it has once or twice.

 

I've got to go.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, with the Panthers as my second favorite team, Marty Hurney has had some good drafts. let's look at all of his first rounders.

 

Julius Peppers

Chris Gamble

Jordan Gross

Thomas Davis

DeAngelo Williams

Jon Beason

Jeff Otah

Jonathon Stewart

 

 

All but Stewart start and are big contributors. Stewert will be huge, but he backs DeAngelo Williams at this point. Peppers and Beason are in the top 5 in their positions. Gamble is good. Gross is good. Otah seems to be good. Thomas Davis starts and is decent. Williams is huge.

 

PS hasn't fared so well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Show me where I said there was no one Flug. It must be easy to win an argument when you can make up shit to shoot down.

 

So you're whimping out on betting me as I expected. That's what your entire arguement is predicated on.

 

You KNOW fans don't know about a Thomas Dimitroff ANY more than they knew about a Pioli or Polian BEFORE they proved themselves. It's not my world. AGAIN, based on your arguement - IF an average FAN like me doesn't know who a Bill Polian is BEFORE he pulls rabbitts out of hats in Buffalo deson't mean they should have NEVER hired Polian Toop.

 

You're being absolutely silly to say because WE don't know the candidates - guys with multi-million dollar entertainment businesses should NOT either. HUH?????????? I NEVER once claimed to know who the GMs are. That shit bores me unless our's SUCKS. That said, the REASON alot of people WANTED Head Coaches like RAC and even Bill Belichick is BECAUSE they PROVED when they had STRONG Supervisors above them and they had TALENTED players to coach - they're pretty good coaches. I'm not gonna lie - I was excited about both. That said, I couldn't tell you WHO Mike Smith was nor could MANY of the other fans. Do our STs look poorly coached? There's 2 guys (Cribbs & Ponbriand) that MADE the pro bowl who didn't get called up at the last minute. Consequently our STs look like the strongest and best coached unit we have right ot wrong?

 

You accused me of using no facts to support my arguement that there has to be BETTER GMs out there than Phil has been over 4 years. As soon as you got in my face about that with "oh yeah name one?" I named Parcells and Dimitroff both got hired within the last year in Miami & Atlanta and BOTH hired NEW Head Coaches which fixed catastrophies rigght or wrong? Both are in the playoff hunt as we speak.

 

Tupa, you're making a fool out of yourself with the temper tantrum. You chickened out in betting me so stop carrying on like a baby cutting teeth. Go bury your head in the sand with those thoughts Miami and Atlanta shouldn't have hired ANYONE new at GM because Tom Flugel couldn't name them. That's just Tup-id.

- Tom F. (Folks, Tupa wants everyone to know he used to be on the debate team. I have NO idea where he wants to go now that I said Parcells and Dimitroff are FACTs that good GMs exist whether we as fans know them pre-hire or not)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Miami brought in BILL PARCELLS. Show me another Bill Parcells and I'll jump on your bandwagon.

 

I did - Thomas Dimitroff in Atlanta. You were just too fired up to pay attention to the speed read. Was there a bigger catastrophe than Atlanta last year? And just because the average fan didn't know who the Head Coach (Mike Smith) was or or the new GM Dimitroff was - does NOT mean success isn't possible. The rookie GM & Head Coach tandem is 8-4 as we speak. That's prolly BETTER than Parcells to be honest. I'm kind of glad Atlanta still played the game yesterday after they had to hear how many more Pro Bowlers the Chargers had than they did.

 

You're all about popular opinion and has it worked yet on personel choices like:

1) Tim Couch? I fell for that one BIG time - GUILTY

2) Courtney Brown? Atenears will tell you I predicted Florida's Alex Brown would be a better pro before either kid played their first NFL down.

3) Bill Belichick? (terrible winning percentage here)

4) Butch Davis? EVERY fan that told me he was the answer the day we signed him told me he was the REASON we suck. My friend Fatdaddy told me I was going to LOVE Butch way better than Chris Palmer when I expressed my concerns that I didn't think Palmer was 100% the problem. Guess who was the 1st fan to tell me Butch sucks? Fatdaddy. He had a majority agreeing.

 

I feel like we're right back where we were when we had BAD personnel evaluations that made the coaching look worse than it is.

For example: When you watch our STs - do they look poorly coached? THERE's where 2 Pro Bowl players are that were actually selected to the Pro Bowl instead of being subs. Point is when we have a higher percentage of more talented players on a unit - we look better coached from that unit. Coincidence? I'm gonna say no.

 

I LOVE Shaun Rogers at Nose tackle - he's the 1st one I've enjoyed in 4 years. If you noticed yesterday, he was on the field for a greater percentage of reps and we were better for it. Another thing was Saturday didn't play so when we had a backup NT in the rotation - he wasn't as overwhelmed. The weather limited the dome team's passing game so the end result was the defense did NOT look poorly coached yesterday right or wrong?

 

I look at any of these losses we've had and I ask myself if RAC was Baltimore's Head Coach using that defense with the following guys lining the middle of the field Ed Reed, Ray Lewis and Ngata and Harbaugh was OUR Head Coach - would that CHANGE DA's 3 TD passes to that defense? Does simplky swapping Harbaugh for RAC make us 2-0 vrs Baltimore this year? I'm gonna say I doubt it. Doesn't MEAN I think he's coaching our guys GREAT. It means I think Ray Lewis and Ed Reed and T Suggs and Derrick Mason and Willis McGahee make MORE plays than out playmakers. Some of the SAME guys won a SB inspite of Dilfer.

 

Bringing RAC here told me ONE thing - RAC is only good at coaching talented players (ie; our STs have the best talent density on the team and they look well coached). If you want to argue with BB that he sucks at coaching talented players - God bless ya. Go clobber his ass and show him your football credentials afterward so he knows who just freight-trained him.

 

Conclusion: After 4 years of body by Savage we NEED more good players than Cribbs, Pontbriand, Rogers, Thomas, Steinbach and Wright. We also need playmakers for that winning impact other teams are edging us out by. This team is DYING for a playmaker on these 10-6 losses and in those games we lost late leads in. If you see more than enough playmakers - then God bless ya again. We'll just keep them the best kept secret in the league pretending they are pacing themselves.

- Tom F.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So you want us to hire a no name? Is that your argument? It wasnt something I considered before because it seems like a stupid idea. If that's your argument, fine. Let's agree to disagree. Although I will note that one of the teams you are pointing to is led by Bill Parcells, not exactly a no name, and the other has had exactly one successful offseason, not exactly the stuff franchises are made of.

 

I think it is an absolute joke if you think Miami and Atl are examples of GMs that are better than Phil. At this point last year, Phil looked like he had turned a shitty team into a playoff team and had found a pro bowl QB off someone else's practice squad. Now you want to fire him. Well, Miami and Atl have even less of a track record.

 

My original point still stands: if people are going to say Phil sucks, give us some context - compare him to something other than your ideal, something like real GMs in the real world. (thanks, Pumpkin)

 

My second question about who we should replace Phil with has been answered by Flugs: he wants a no name that the brilliant Randy Lerner hand picks. I think this is a ridiculous argument (Lerner has shown NO ability to find unproven football geniuses), but at least it is an answer.

 

Flugs obviously thinks sarcastic comments and direct questions require angry ranting responses, so I'll move on to a different topic. Enjoy Tom, this one is all yours. I'm whimping away, or playing in a romper room, or something else. I'm sure you'll spend 3 or 4 thousand words telling me exactly what.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Aloysius
Well, with the Panthers as my second favorite team, Marty Hurney has had some good drafts. let's look at all of his first rounders.

 

Julius Peppers

Chris Gamble

Jordan Gross

Thomas Davis

DeAngelo Williams

Jon Beason

Jeff Otah

Jonathon Stewart

It's probably too soon to judge the '08 draft class.

 

But I calculated the percentage of players drafted by Carolina in the '05-'07 draft classes who've become starters, and it's 34.6%. Savage got a 36% on his drafts.

 

And in two of the three years, Carolina drafted high-profile busts in the 2nd Round: Eric Shelton in '05 and Dwayne Jarrett in '07. Jarrett may still turn things around, but it doesn't seem likely to happen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's probably too soon to judge the '08 draft class.

 

But I calculated the percentage of players drafted by Carolina in the '05-'07 draft classes who've become starters, and it's 34.6%. Savage got a 36% on his drafts.

 

And in two of the three years, Carolina drafted high-profile busts in the 2nd Round: Eric Shelton in '05 and Dwayne Jarrett in '07. Jarrett may still turn things around, but it doesn't seem likely to happen.

 

Good points, but you must remember that while Savage has a high percentage of drafteees playing, how many of them would be starting for other teams?

 

Every one of the 1st round picks by Hurney in Carolina could start for at least 20 of the 32 teams.

 

Yes, Shelton was a bust and Jarrett seems to be a bust and so was Keary Colbert.

 

But the first rounders have all been hits, and that seems to be the most important part.

 

Hurney also found Will Witherspoon (3rd) in 2002,

had relatively poor draft in 2003 but got Rickey Manning Jr. (3),

and Travelle Wharton (3) in 2004.

 

I'd just be happy if the Browbns would hit on their first round selections.

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Aloysius
pioli would be a major coup. he knows how to find guys for the 3-4 and has had great success in new england. if he's feeling underapreciated, i would hope we'd go after him.

 

i like savage for his talent evaluation, but pioli's even better. he's built champions from nothing in new england. while i know part of that is coaching, he's still been the guy to set the tone for the organization and put together the talent.

 

having him would be interesting if only to see what he thinks of the current roster.

 

i also would trust him to pick a great coach, even if it's someone who's failed elsewhere or a complete newbie.

Rumor is that if Pioli takes a GM job, he'll bring along Josh McDaniels to be his HC.

 

Not sure I'd be wild about giving a young (32) OC the head coaching job, but hiring a local guy done good would definitely give the team some good PR (or at least offset the grunts about us hiring another Pats coordinator).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i'm going to back off my earlier statement about being sure that pioli can pick a good HC. it turns out that he and belichick have been together pretty much their entire careers, and they went to NE together, as well.

 

that doesn't mean that pioli can't pick a good HC, just that he hasn't.

 

i don't know what to think of mcdaniels. he runs a good offense, but i don't know about him as a head coach. i also wonder how much input belichick has in drafting.

 

i'd still trust pioli over savage, though, and would really love it if we could get PS to stay on with pioli taking the helm, but there's no way that could ever happen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For all of you who are singing the praises of Parcells in Miami I'll point this out.

 

They are 7-5 with wins over

 

NE before Cassel started playing well

SD who looks like crap this year.

Buf who won a few games against bad teams early and got over rated.

Seattle, Oakland, and St. Lois.

 

in other words. they look to me a whole lot alike the Browns did last year. a few games above .500 against one of the easiest schedules in the NFL this season.

 

Lets talk in two years and see how "great" just making a change at GM and head coach made them.

 

and for all the people claiming "you don't need 5 years to turn a team around". here is my argument. when Savage and Crennel took this team over, a 4-5 year plan was acceptable because this team was SO VOID of talent that they were pretty much starting over like an expansion franchise again. Give me any team you say "turned it around in one or two years", and I'll show you a team that at least had a foundation of some talent on the team and had a bad luck year the year before the "miraculous" turn around.

 

That being said, I beleive the Browns are at a point where they could go from a bad 4-12 season to a good to great season the next year. There is a foundation of talent there thanks in part to Savage. If whoever has control of this team for 2009 can fill in with a few good draft picks and the right free agents, this team can win.

 

As for who has that control next season? I don't even care anymore. RAC for sure has to go, I think Savage can continue to grow in his position, but don't care if he's fired also. All I can do now is pray that who ever is control next year, they do well, and so do our Browns. I'm done trying to guess who would be good at what job.

 

Tell me where is all this great talent Savage has brought us?

 

Braylon Edwards........has the drops can't make a play when needed

Brodney Pool - High 2nd round- very average safety.....how many teams would he start for?

D'Qwell Jackson- High 2nd round....Average linebacker...again how many teams would he start for

Joe Thomas= 3rd pick in the draft...no brainer...having a average year at best and thats being nice

Charlie Frye: 3rd string quarterback

Kameriron Wimbley...has done nothing since rookie season...Bust

 

Once again I ask where is all this supposed talent

 

We played a schedule last year with a bunch of bums and we put up nice stats and dominated a everyone here was fooled into believing this team had alot of talent and this was the year.

 

Now anyone here please name me a defensive playmaker on this team? now with Edwards in a funk name me another offensive playmaker?

 

Solon, says we had 6 Pro Bowlers, how many will we have this year? we might have 1 and what have those Pro Bowl players done this year? NOTHING

 

People its not the coaching its the players, the players we have are JUST NOT THAT GOOD

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So you want us to hire a no name? Is that your argument?

 

LOL! Not even close.

 

Your arguement has been - name 1 guy that could do better than Phil Savage right or wrong?

 

I named 2 teams that found this guy. You didn't handle it well so you asked me to name someone BESIDES Bill Parcells and I did it a second and third time for you.

 

Since my answer was pretty much checkmate: what's your NEW angle now? Something about no-names? They might be no-names to the FANS but are they no-names to the multi-millionaires hiring them? Prolly not but I'm sure you'll disagree.

 

New angle = sore loser.

 

As You Were...,

- Tom F.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Aloysius
Good points, but you must remember that while Savage has a high percentage of drafteees playing, how many of them would be starting for other teams?

 

Every one of the 1st round picks by Hurney in Carolina could start for at least 20 of the 32 teams.

 

Yes, Shelton was a bust and Jarrett seems to be a bust and so was Keary Colbert.

 

But the first rounders have all been hits, and that seems to be the most important part.

 

Hurney also found Will Witherspoon (3rd) in 2002,

had relatively poor draft in 2003 but got Rickey Manning Jr. (3),

and Travelle Wharton (3) in 2004.

 

I'd just be happy if the Browbns would hit on their first round selections.

That's true.

 

Then again, you also have to wonder how many of our picks haven't developed because the coaching staff has poorly coached or underutilized them. Harrison's a good example of the latter, and I know that some people here think Wimbley's being held back by poor coaching (I'm not sure about that).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

LOL! Not even close.

 

Your arguement has been - name 1 guy that could do better than Phil Savage right or wrong?

 

I named 2 teams that found this guy. You didn't handle it well so you asked me to name someone BESIDES Bill Parcells and I did it a second and third time for you.

 

Since my answer was pretty much checkmate: what's your NEW angle now? Something about no-names? They might be no-names to the FANS but are they no-names to the multi-millionaires hiring them? Prolly not but I'm sure you'll disagree.

 

New angle = sore loser.

 

As You Were...,

- Tom F.

My exact words:

Which GMs consistently outperformed him? Is it more than a few?
You've named two or three that you think have outperformed him. Like I said, you just making up arguments to defeat. I'm arguing the same angle as always. Nice try though. Oh, and your two examples consist of less than one full season of track record.

 

As I was...waiting for you to say something meaningful.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We disagree about Savage....the northcutt thing you keep refering too is not real....we re-signed him before the draft.... Also When Quinn went down for the year...aren't you atleast glad we have a solid backup? The reason we kept DA in the first place was to have two good Qb's if one went down. Wish we would have just gotten a first and third for DA as a rfa and should have signed him to a minimum tender...but then we'd have dorsey at QB and Cribbs(?) as backup.

 

Solon, I dig MOST of your takes and our disagreement here won't waiver my enjoyment of discussing things with you. I just can't agree Savage has done enough over 4 years even though I liked our 2007 draft. EVERY team always drafting top 15 has SOME talent. Let's not act like #3 overall picks are TERRIBLE spots for personnel gurtus to be drafting at. Savage has 2 number 3 overalls and 1 number 13 overall. Honest answer: of those 3 are people disappointed with 2 of those?

 

Keep in mind, Phil's idea of ideal LBer is the D'Qwell Jackson you like to remind me about all the time while he gave Andra Davis a RAISE even though he saw film of Jamal Lewis running right through our middle and Andra Davis' countless arm tackles.

 

Did you like Trent Dilfer?

 

Did you like Charlie Frye?

 

Are you happy with DA?

 

How MANY playmakers are winning us tight ball games for example like our 2 different 10-6 losses?

 

If you dislike RAC - want to guess who gave him a raise?

 

Did Kevin Shaffer look worth the amount he's making yesterday? Mathis got 2 sacks on him and he beat Shaffer so bad on the game winning fumble recovery cause by Freeney's pass rush - he wasn't even in your tv screen to TACKLE Mathis.

 

Winslow is shotso - he's always pushing off after 3 knee surgeries.

 

Edwards can't catch and MOST of that is he's a Michigan sissy petrified of contact.

 

I mean what talent are ya talking about besides Cribbs, Thomas, Wright and Rogers?

 

I'd trade Winslow right now while his name has more value than his beat up body. He doesn't look like he's running more than a 4.9 forty right now, which explains the decrease in value if we wanted to make him a slot receiver.

- Tom F.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My exact words: You've named two or three that you think have outperformed him. Like I said, you just making up arguments to defeat. I'm arguing the same angle as always. Nice try though. Oh, and your two examples consist of less than one full season of track record.

 

As I was...waiting for you to say something meaningful.

 

 

Not trying to get between you and Flugs, but I would say Ozzie Newsome in Baltimore has drafted much better than Savage and turned last years disaster into a potential playoff team this year with a rookie head coach and quarterback.

 

The NY Giants, Titans, Carolina, Tampa Bay, Jets, Eagles and Green Bay GM's have drafter much lower than Savage and drafted better players and look at the Steelers drafting Woodley and Timmons 2 linebackers better than any defensive player that Savage has drafted in Cleveland.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awesome post Flugel. When I read that I am instantly hit by the sheer amount of garbage players Phil has brought in through the draft and free agency. He has made a few nice picks, but what GM doesn't? He's below average and coupled with the way he has behaved this year and how he won't fire Romeo, well, in my book, he's garbage.

 

EDIT: Tupa, what planet are you on bro. Marty could come in and handle business easily.

 

Thanks Pl4t! Have you tried following what it is Tupa THINKS he's proven to me? I had a dental procedure done and I might have too much codeine in me to follow what his arguement is anymore.

 

When I'm being asked WHAT GMs are consistently "outperforming" Phil Savage - it's hard to keep a straight face when his personal BEST record in the division is 3-3. If that's not enough, have we ever BEATEN Pittsburgh once since Savage came? I don't CARE what their GM's name is - all I know is there's an evironment there that makes being a Head Coach easy and there is NOT one in Cleveland. Isn't that the HOT topic all over the place right now?

 

Seeing how Baltimore was 13-3 in 2006 and they're heading back to the playoffs in 2008 if they continue as is - there's 2 GMs just in our own division consistently outperforming Savage. Baltimore's GM's name is Ozzie Newsome. Not sure why the freak it matters if I know who the personnel managers are. If Baltimore is better 2 of the last 3 years I hope the inconvenient truth doesn't lead us into arguing over the definition of consistency because .667 is a good batting average UNLESS it's not what Tupa needs to hear. Then we'll be at war about that too.

 

Since I've discussed the ONLY franchises worth counting in our own division - where does Phil rank among GMs and consistency? He's consistently worse than Balitmore and Pittsburgh. Have we swept Cincy once since he's been here? So he's dead even with them whether they're good or terrible. Should I find the same comfort Tupa finds in that?

Therefore, after further review Phil Savage is consistently worse than 66.7% of the GMs in our own division and he looks to be tied with the one iin Cincy.

 

I'm not willing to go back and find how many GMs were better than 6-10 in 2005 or how many were better than 4-12 the next year and I have to believe ALOT are better than 4-8 this year right? Doesn't it look liker ALOT of GMs are doing better consistently?

- Tom F. (Back to the REAL arguement - we don't have ENOUGH playmakers to win ball games like our opponents that consistently beat us do. I got their Pro Bowls right here!)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not trying to get between you and Flugs, but I would say Ozzie Newsome in Baltimore has drafted much better than Savage and turned last years disaster into a potential playoff team this year with a rookie head coach and quarterback.

 

The NY Giants, Titans, Carolina, Tampa Bay, Jets, Eagles and Green Bay GM's have drafter much lower than Savage and drafted better players and look at the Steelers drafting Woodley and Timmons 2 linebackers better than any defensive player that Savage has drafted in Cleveland.

At first glance, here are some facts that weaken your list:

When Phil took Edwards, TB selected Cadillac and Tenn selected Pacman. In round 2, Carolina took Eric Shelton (currently on another team's practice squad). Round 3 picks included Courtney Roby by Tenn, Ryan Moats by Philly, and Sione Pouha by the Jets. Tenn took Roydell Williams in R4, and released their 5th round pick after 1 season. TB has released and re-signed their 5th round practice squad safety a few times now.

 

The Eagles did find Trent Cole on day 2, but that's the only name that jumps out at me.

 

In '06 Tenn took VY, the Eagles got Bunkley, the Jets took Klemens in R2...

 

I dont have time for a more thorough analysis at the moment, but I'll get back to it later if you want.

 

I would agree that NYG have had an incredible few years in the draft. Baltimore had a couple good picks this year, but misses as much as Phil (day 1 picks include Yamon Figurs, David Pittman, and Dan Cody). I would attribute their turnaround as much to coaching as anything else. Also, they are starting many of the same players as they did 2 years ago when they were 13-3 (with many players drafted during Savage's tenure there). I'd have to take a closer look to say anything definitive about the other teams, but I think it's safe to say all will have a healthy list of misses.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it depends on if you are looking for "Great" players, or merely players talented enough to be starters on most NFL rosters. And many others have listed the players that Savage has brought in that helped last years team win those 6 games.

 

But I wasn't making that argument. infact, if you look, I said I don't care if Savage is fired. The arguement I will continually make is that everytime someone points to the "flavor of the month" team that APPEARS to be turning it around faster than the Browns have. I can point out where that teams situation was different than the Browns when Savage was brought on board, OR i'll preach caution that said team is not as good as they appear this year. I predict Miami has a few years more of pain before they do anything in the playoffs.

 

And i'll reverse the argument on you. how do you know that Wimbley being a bust with only one move is not a coaching problem? How do you explain the use of guys like Harrison and other young guys throughout the Crennel years?

 

I also think it's funny that when you show someone the percentages of Savage's Draft picks being on rosters, it's the same as another team's GM. but the arguement becomes, yeah well the players on the other team would start on other teams before ours do. People have no factual basis on that opinion, only thier own opinion. and most of the time, they only really concentrate on the players on the Browns. I go back to my argument I have all the time with people abotu a guy like Phil Dawson. Browns fan watch every kick and every kickoff Dawson makes with huge interest and rightly so because it's thier team. but then they see a guy like Bironas make a big kick on sports center and say "we need a guy like him", even though when you compare statistics, Dawson is as good or better than the other teams kickers.

 

I personally believe the largest problem on this team is coaching or lack there of. I believe Savage has had his failures in the draft, and he definitely needs to improve on all the other parts of his GM duties, but I would personally keep him so that there is some continued continuity in this organization.

 

So if I were owner, I'd fire the coach for sure.

 

I'd see who is out there for both GM and coach, and then make a decision about what to do with Savage.

 

IF you look to hire a new GM, hire him first and let him pick his own coach.

 

What Savage has given us is servicable NFL players, no stars but guys good enough to play in the NFL

 

This is the same Phil who everyone praised for taking Ozzie when we traded down to get Wimbley and the extra pick to get the supposed next NT of the future Baba Oshiwino (SP)

 

This is the same Savage who passed on Justin Tuck and Brandon Jacobs 2 Pro Bowl players because of his fetish for Oklahoma players in taking the great Antoine Perkins, Savage also passed on Greg Jennings who would look nice in a Browns uniform

 

The same Savage who passed on Courtland Finnegan one of the top cornerbacks in the game today with the Titans a 7th round draft choice

 

While speaking of linebackers after D'qwell jackson, Stephen Tullloch starts at MLB for the Titans and is having a Pro Bowl season, Clint Ingram starts for the Jags

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

See it's comments like that one that make me wonder how much you really know what you are talking about.

 

I guarantee you Jackson was not Phil's idea of an ideal LBer. As you see below. Jackson was the 8th LB drafted that year. one of which was Savage reaching for a pass rusher in Wimbley. You don't think Savage would have rather had Ryans, Carpenter, Greenway, or Lawson? ofcourse he would.

 

7 2 1 33 DeMeco Ryans Texans Alabama

16 3 30 94 Freddie Keiaho Colts San Diego State

19 4 19 116 Stephen Tulloch Titans North Carolina State

20 4 23 120 Jamar Williams Bears Arizona State

 

Which of those names jump off the page at you as being far and above better than Jackson?

 

If Jackson is NOT Phil's idea of ideal LBer than why wasn't he drafting MOST talented player available? He COULD have offered bart Scott MORE cake in free agency and solved that problem. He gave Andra Davis a RAISE and WHO does this knowing he will be the STAR of Jamal Lewis' Hall of Fame highlight reels? He might as well present Jamal for being a BIG part of 500 yards rushing in just 6 wonderful quarters vrs us.

 

Tulloch starts for Tennessee and I mentioned him on my predraft bargain list of LBers I thought would help us out. Keiaho has been solid for Indy everytime I've seen him play.

 

BTW, Demeco Ryans is BETTER than our first round draft pick from 2006 and he made AFC Defensive Rookie of the Year for being impactful.

 

In 07, I watched the Steelers add OLB LaMarr Woodley in round 2 and he was an All American at Michigan for a coach that got fired right? Doesn't seem fair that NOW both their OLBers are twice as good as both our OLBers. Kent State's James Harrison wasn't even drafted - he was a free agent.

 

And while we went after Matt Stewart to enrich our LBers in free agency. Pittsburgh decided to add their version of FA LBer James Farrior.

 

Their OTHER LBer? Larry Foote from round 4.

 

I just think Pittsburgh's Personnel Director/GM/Whatever is just flatout BETTER at getting the right guys. And handling EVERYTHING that goes with the job while Phil is in over his head. Is it ALL Phil's fault? NO. He went from a GOOD Supervisor to a BAD one, which did him no favor being a first time GM. Part of that is he had a fallout with Collins though and I can't pretend I know too much about the nitty gritty of it. At the time, I was a Savage rah rah so I took his side because I always bought everything he said.

 

I always start off the ultimate HOMER because I HATE the alternative. I WANT important guys to succeed. If you looked at my posts 2 years ago - I stuck up for Savage all the time. I even LIKED his ambition in the offseason BUT myhinsight lenses are making me ask these 2 questions:

1) After 4 years do we have enough playmakers to win games consistently?

2) Is Phil equipped for ALL the problem solving necessary?

 

I don't think so. When we HIRE this NEXT head coach - do we REALLY want to find out Phil was in over his head? Or do we want someone to get the RIGHT players to work with?

 

You're an extremely LOYAL guy and I like that about you. You can't fake passion and you don't. I'm just thinking outloud with you and PART of this is out of frustration on the season going the way it did. Thanks for your reply JADBF!

- Tom F.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...