Phil Savage Drafts

[We need Tom Tupa]

The Saints got Vilma b/c the Jets realized that he doesnt fit a 3-4. RAC runs a 3-4. Vilma is not an option. Adalius Thomas is an OLB, always has been as far as I can tell. Even if he was capable of playing ILB, why would he want to? He was offered $20 guaranteed to play the position he likes for the Super Bowl champions. What do you think Phil shouldve done about that? Bart Scott never wanted to play here. He left before a serious offer was ever made. That was fairly well covered as I recall. Cato June was also available at one point. He's a great linebacker...if you're playing cover 2. But we dont.

 

If you want to play a 4-3, take that up with RAC and Lerner. As far as I can tell, Savage doesnt have much control over that. He needed 3-4 ILBs, and Bart Scott is the only one you've mentioned.

 

[Sony Reed]

The Saints got Vilma b/c the Jets realized that he doesnt fit a 3-4. RAC runs a 3-4. Vilma is not an option. Adalius Thomas is an OLB, always has been as far as I can tell. Even if he was capable of playing ILB, why would he want to? He was offered $20 guaranteed to play the position he likes for the Super Bowl champions. What do you think Phil shouldve done about that? Bart Scott never wanted to play here. He left before a serious offer was ever made. That was fairly well covered as I recall. Cato June was also available at one point. He's a great linebacker...if you're playing cover 2. But we dont.

 

If you want to play a 4-3, take that up with RAC and Lerner. As far as I can tell, Savage doesnt have much control over that. He needed 3-4 ILBs, and Bart Scott is the only one you've mentioned.

 

So you are saying that there are no linebackers in the entire NFL that Phil could have got better than Andra Davis?As Flugs, mentioned I don't see all the talent we have on this team and Phil has obtained that you and JADBF see.

 

Such a talented team with a 4-8 record uh uh uh, I know if we had better coaching we would be 8-4

 

How many Browns players can you name me in the top 5 in the position they play? Other than Shaun Rogers and Josh Cribbs I don't see any.

 

What draft pick has Savage made other than the 3rd pick in 2 drafts would you say looks like he can become a star player or even a Pro Bowl player?

 

Do you think a Greg Jennings, Brandon Jacobs, Justin Tuck, Brandon Marshall just a few guys Phil bypassed would look good in a Browns uniform, I would see all of those guys are true playmakers something Phil has lacked in drafting

 

For all the talk about Butch Davis he got us in the playoffs one year, how many winning season have Phil and RAC given us? ONE WINNING SEASON IN 4 YEARS..........Thats not very good.

[Guest Aloysius]

Okay, so I guess we're no at the point where everyone agrees that re-signing Andra Davis in '06 was a reasonable thing to do. I mean, how do you let a guy go when he's just notched 149 tackles, 4 stuffs, and 2 sacks for your defense & there aren't any decent FA's available?

 

The only question is whether we should have done more the last two offseasons to upgrade his spot.

 

Toop's already covered the '07 guys. I'd just add that Adalius Thomas has played some ILB in the past, but he's a better OLB. And IIRC, he was adamant about signing with a team on the east coast (didn't want to move his family).

 

In the '07 draft, I don't know where you'd get the ILB. Don't draft Joe Thomas? Brady Quinn? Eric Wright? Brandon McDonald?

 

A lot of people don't know this, but the Browns were planning to take ILB Desmond Bishop in Round 6, but the Packers took him right before we were on the board.

[Pumpkin Eater]

Davis sucks. Good GM's dont overpay for shitty players. They might find an equally shitty player to take their place, but they won't overpay anyone. Saves cap space.

[Guest Aloysius]

Davis sucks. Good GM's dont overpay for shitty players. They might find an equally shitty player to take their place, but they won't overpay anyone. Saves cap space.

After they lopped off the last two years & cut his '08 pay, Davis's deal basically amounted to a 3 year, $11.475M deal (Initially, it was a 5 year, $20M deal).

 

That same offseason, the Cowboys gave ILB Akin Ayodele a 5 year, $17.5M deal.

 

Very similar players, very similar production over the past three years (Andra: 232 TT, 1 SK, 3 INT; Ayodele: 194 TT, 1 SK, 4 INT). We shortened Andra's deal; the Cowboys traded Ayodele to Miami.

 

So if re-signing Davis makes Phil a bad GM, then Bill Parcells & Jerry Jones are also pretty bad.

[Pumpkin Eater]

Quit using facts for comparison Al

 

You're just too in love with Savage.

 

Don't you know how easy it is to be a GM, Draft all the best linebackers and get every great FA to sign for you?

 

 

it's very easy. I'm going to try it next week.

[Guest Aloysius]

Quit using facts for comparison Al

 

You're just too in love with Savage.

 

Don't you know how easy it is to be a GM, Draft all the best linebackers and get every great FA to sign for you?

Sounds like a plan.

[Sony Reed]

hmmm...butch davis got them to the playoffs with a 9-7 record....

 

This team with the talent savage brought in was 10-6 last year.......

 

and guess how many winning seasons Davis had????? uh yeah that 1 9-7

 

Huge difference there yes there is.....

 

Tell me what playoff game we played in with that 10-6 record

 

How many teams with winning records did we beat

 

You say you like to debate but you only point out things to try to make you look good, I'd rather go 7-9 and make the playoffs than 10-6 and staying at home saying if the Colts had played well we would of won when he had the easiest schedule in football and still missed the playoffs but then again you keep saying all this talent we have as we sit today at 4-8 staring a 4-12 season or maybe 5-11 in the face. if we had so much talent that Savage brought in we would have a winning record.........I know your answer its all RAC's fault we need better coaching not better players.

 

You say this team with the talent Savage brought in was 10-6 last year......well that same talent with more added talent has us at 4-8 and looking at another losing season........so you want to tell about all that talent.....where is all that talent JADBF

 

What does Bill Parcells like to say......YOU ARE WHAT YOU ARE AND WE ARE A 4-8 TEAM LESS TALENTED THAN MANY HOMERS WANT TO ADMIT

 

How many people had the Browns winning the AFC North? going deep in the playoffs? having more than 6 Pro Bowl players

What about all the talk was this is the year we bypass the Steelers.......looks like many people were WRONG

 

We all were fooled by last seasons easy schedule that produced 10 wins.......time to admit the truth

 

[Flugel]

I'm done talking to you Tom.

 

Statements like this show me how much you don't actually read what other people write,

 

Look who's talking? You ONLY read what you WANT to read. If it's not "Phil Savage is wonderful" - you and other Savage prisses throw hissy fits and personalize because you got no game. That's freakin gay so carry on Poindexter...

- Tom F.

[Flugel]

First of all...don't you get like Tom.

 

Now where have I said it is all RAC's fault. I have said it's more his fault that Savages.

 

And secondly, All I was combating was your little point that somehow Davis was better than what we have now. And you are wrong.

 

SONY, you did awesome. You got him twisting his take in all different directions. All the Savage fans get cranky and prissy when you bring up the personnel mess we have. They're not HAPPY with how they are articulating his perfection so just feel flattered at their only resort. They really just want it to be RAC's fault exclusively so it's a simple fix. I keep saying if it was that easy - we wouldn't be looking for Head Coach #4 already. VERY talented don't teams just don't consistently finish with 4-6 wins the way our body by Savage has looked for 3 of his 4 years here. And no matter how hard they try, when RAC had a GREAT Supervisor and GOOD players in NE there wasn't a person in MA that didn't think he could coach. The SAME people that want him gone are the SAME ones that wanted BB gone and can't admit it.

 

We ALL know Butch Davis is better suited for college than pros. That said, when Butch Davis inherited a 5-27 football team in 2001 - he had us in the playoffs in 2002. And if you looked at the schedule back then we had to BEAT an Atlanta team that was going to the NFC playoffs on the final week of the season and we did. The Savage fans HATE hearing our 2007 schedule had 12 youth football teams on it but that's how many teams on it could not win MORE than 8 games (if you researched the mean of wins for those 12 teams - it won't exceed 5). Once again, we were only 3-3 in the division.

 

This part is for SONY - who gave RAC a raise this year? How about Jamal Lewis? How did Roye do after RAC gave him a raise? How did Bodden do after RAC gave him a raise? Savage's first 2 QB ideas were Trent Dilfer and Charlie Frye right? His next stroke of brilliance was seeing he needed to lock up Andra Davis after watching films of Jamal Lewis gaining over 500 yards running up the middle against us in 2 games (only 6-7 quarters worth). Jason Fiske's body was shotso - there wasn't anything left in his tank. That was knee jerk decision where a Savage fan will caution was he was cap friendly. He was alo opponent friendly as we ranked 31st against the run. WHY sign him at all? Because Phil's draft pick Andrew Hoffman was even worse. End result: Fiske got more than a million $ when 31 other teams had already concluded "hang-em up son."

 

The main reason we have to remain so overdepedent on free agency is because Phil has only had 1 decent draft in 2007. Have we even seen 1 kid from the 2008 draft yet? Who's left from 2005? So when Joe J, Donte Stallworth, Robaire Smith, Kenny Wright, Antwaan Peek and other Savage signees show up to games in blue jeans - how MANY draftees from the Savage era are helping us win?

 

Ready for this? How many guys leftover from the Davis era on our 2007 team were given raises? Andra Davis? Leigh Bodden? Ryan Tucker? Orpheus Roye? How about other key guys Savage looked to from the Davis era like Sean Jones & Kellen Winslow in 2007? Steve Heiden was here pre-Savage too right? Wasn't Phil Dawson? I'm not seeing a BIG difference from Savage that he so confidently said he'd make.

- Tom F.

[Guest Aloysius]

Have we even seen 1 kid from the 2008 draft yet?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 

Come on, Tom. Not only is that an unfair question (are any of your late-round rookies contributing? no? then YOU SUCK!), but it's one that you still lose on.

 

Alex Hall has 23 tackles and 3 sacks. Pretty good for a 7th rounder, no?

 

Also, Ahtyba Rubin's been getting some time at NT, Beau Bell's been playing specials, and we're about to see plenty of Rucker.

 

It's way too early to start dissing our '08 draft class. Personally, I wasn't very high on Beau Bell, but I think the guy deserves time (& a healthy training camp) before we start calling him a bust.

[DTBH]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 

Come on, Tom. Not only is that an unfair question (are any of your late-round rookies contributing? no? then YOU SUCK!), but it's one that you still lose on.

 

Alex Hall has 23 tackles and 3 sacks. Pretty good for a 7th rounder, no?

 

Also, Ahtyba Rubin's been getting some time at NT, Beau Bell's been playing specials, and we're about to see plenty of Rucker.

 

It's way too early to start dissing our '08 draft class. Personally, I wasn't very high on Beau Bell, but I think the guy deserves time (& a healthy training camp) before we start calling him a bust.

 

Not to mention, we would have seen more of Rucker already if we weren't so deep at TE. We also would have seen more of Bell if he hadn't gotten injured. So far, Phil has a lot to boast about with the 08 draft.

 

I'd still like to see some sort of "hit or miss" percentage with Savage's drafts compared to other GM's around the league. Nobody is successful with every pick. I think his drafts have been pretty good.

[Guest Aloysius]

I'd still like to see some sort of "hit or miss" percentage with Savage's drafts compared to other GM's around the league. Nobody is successful with every pick. I think his drafts have been pretty good.

I calculated the percentage of draft picks I thought were starting-caliber players, and here's what I got:

 

Draft Pick Hit Rate

 

Giants: 52.6%

Colts: 38.5%

Chargers: 38.1%

Ravens: 37.5%

Browns: 36%

Steelers: 32%

Patriots: 26.9%

 

Basically, we're in the middle of the pack of some really good drafting teams. Though some of those teams have drafted more elite players than us, we haven't been drafting more busts than the Scott Pioli and Kevin Colbert's of the world.

 

I think Savage deserves to be criticized for his management style, as well as some of the FA moves he made this past offseason. But I don't think his drafts somehow justify canning him. If he deserves to be fired or demoted, it's not because he suddenly forgot how to scout.

[eqrulz101]

Heres the deal between the Savage and RAC debate as I see it.

 

RAC is a horrible coach that cant get the most out of his players and has given us a team that plays with no heart week in and week out. He has to go.

 

BUT...

 

We can not keep blowing this team up every 4 years and expect to get any where, other than where we are now.

 

Has Savage been pefect? No, but the talent level on this team is no doubt better since he has been here. With a coach that can get the most out of his players and put them in a position to be better then they are, you never know what this year and the players we have could have been with a better coach.

 

You give savage on more year with a different coach and after that year if the coach we get doesnt feel he is getting the talent he needs you show Savage the door.

 

I just dont think you blow this team up completely and expect to be better any time soon. We could have some talent on this team that hasnt been able to produce due to bad coaching and trying to bend players to a system instead of bending the system to the players. Hell best example I can think of is Jeff Garcia, he looked like crap here because he was in the wrong system for his style of play. Look how well he is doing in TB.

 

So you fix the glaring problem, and hope that Savage can have a better offseason and if he doesnt you get rid of him next year.

[Flugel]

I calculated the percentage of draft picks I thought were starting-caliber players, and here's what I got:

 

Draft Pick Hit Rate

 

Giants: 52.6%

Colts: 38.5%

Chargers: 38.1%

Ravens: 37.5%

Browns: 36%

Steelers: 32%

Patriots: 26.9%

 

Basically, we're in the middle of the pack of some really good drafting teams. Though some of those teams have drafted more elite players than us, we haven't been drafting more busts than the Scott Pioli and Kevin Colbert's of the world.

 

I think Savage deserves to be criticized for his management style, as well as some of the FA moves he made this past offseason. But I don't think his drafts somehow justify canning him. If he deserves to be fired or demoted, it's not because he suddenly forgot how to scout.

 

How accurate is this thing? I'm looking at Lindy's preseason magaize for 2008 and Pittsburgh drafted the following guys appearing in their starting lineup/ rotation weekly:

Hines Ward, Santonio Holmes, Ben Roethlisberger, Kendall Simmons, Casey Hampton, Pollyneedsahaircut, Brett Keisel, Aaron Smith, Larry Foote, Lawrence Timmons, Ike Taylor, Deshea Townsend, Willie Colon, Max Starks, Marvel Smith, LaMarr Woodley, Heath Miller, William Gay, Bryant McFadden. Dan Sepulveda. Seems like alot to me.

 

Willie Parker was an undrafted free agent.

 

They've even had to All Pros/good players they drafted who became highly sought after FAs landing on other teams like Plex Burress, Allan Faneca, Joey Porter and Chris Hope.

 

OBVIOUSLY it's over a longer period of time BUT they replaced studs leaving for FA with studs from the draft. Some of our most important people in 2007 were guys here before Savage like: Sean Jones, KWII, Ryan Tucker (almost a full season for once), Ryan Pontbriand, Steve Heiden, Phil Dawson, Leigh Bodden, Orpheus Roye and Andra Davis. Savage gave raises to the last 4 guys I mentioned in order to keep them.

 

Here's our Savage draftees in the in the regular mix/rotation after 4 years of drafting and there's been some considerable debate on a few:

Thomas, Edwards, Vickers, Wimbley, Jackson, McDonald, Wright, Pool

 

Cribbs is an undrafted surprise (like Willie Parker)

 

Harrison, Rubin, Williams and Stubbedtoes don't play enough to count. I LIKE Harrison as much as any of our draftees. I named 8 out of 22 starters and of the 8 a few of them have struggled with performance consistency. How many could start at Pittsburgh? Now doesn't that help us make sense of being 0-7 vrs Pittsburgh since Body-by-Savage? It should unless we're exercising our coping skills.

- Tom F.

[Flugel]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 

Come on, Tom. Not only is that an unfair question (are any of your late-round rookies contributing? no? then YOU SUCK!), but it's one that you still lose on.

 

Alex Hall has 23 tackles and 3 sacks. Pretty good for a 7th rounder, no?

 

Also, Ahtyba Rubin's been getting some time at NT, Beau Bell's been playing specials, and we're about to see plenty of Rucker.

 

It's way too early to start dissing our '08 draft class. Personally, I wasn't very high on Beau Bell, but I think the guy deserves time (& a healthy training camp) before we start calling him a bust.

 

 

Aloy,

It's not like I want guys to suck. Hall caught my eye especially early on so that's a GOOD point by you.

As for Rubin, when Rogers goes out our 2nd Nose Tackle looks like a helpless blocking sled going backwards. I'm not going to give Rubin a thumbs up. I've seen Beau Bell make 1 STs tackle and I have YET to see Rucker play so I gotta see it to believe it. I've done the HOMER stuff for 40+ years and all the wishful thinking in the world didn't make Charlie Frye the guy we needed him to be. It's NEVER too early. Do you ever get sick of saying "next year?" I was saying next year in the 70s and 80s and it's now 2008. At some point you gotta do it THIS year.

 

Do you know what frustrates me the most? The NEW culture surrounding this franchise that re-emphasizes to players. media and fans that we have all the time in the world. It's okay if we're not good now - we'll be good later. That's enough to make the right players not want to stay here. When we're WINNING I'll love the GM, Head Coach and even the waterboys. We're not winning so I'm sick of hearing we're extremely talented. We are what our record says we are over 4 years. Insufficient.

- Tom F.

[Flugel]

If you want to play a 4-3, take that up with RAC and Lerner. As far as I can tell, Savage doesnt have much control over that. He needed 3-4 ILBs, and Bart Scott is the only one you've mentioned.

 

So you're saying we would have needed to bench Clay Matthews if we went to a 4-3 alignment? Very interesting but I'm not sure he would have taken the news well that he's not a 4-3 LBer. Wanna bet he'd just say I can play LBer in ANY freakin scheme and prove it? And didn't Ray Lewis play in a 4-3 in college? Baltimore had a season where they used a 3-4 and he didn't didn't get benched Tupa so WHY do you think a solid 4-3 LBer can't handle a 3-4? If you're a stud - you're a stud. If you're limited to begin with it'll show up in what you can and cannot do. We don't have alot of flexible LBers currently serviceable from what I see.

 

Actually, we're using 4 man fronts right now. On 90% of the snaps vrs Indy we had 4 guys upfront with a hand down as the commentator alluded to on Sunday. Confining Peyton Manning's offense to just 3 points gave us a GREAT chance to win AND I dare say that's the BEST game I've seen D'Qwell Jackson play all season. If you taped the game - check out the 4-2 alignment we were in most of the day.

 

BTW, wasn't Adalius Thomas a 3-4 LBer? Didn't NE invite him to join in on a perfect regular season in 2007? We didn't need him either? Tupa, there's more than just 1 or 2 guys in the last 4 years that would have been better than Andra Davis as much as that pains you to hear for convenience of arguement. Not for nothing, but Teddy Bruschi was a down linemen in college as was Mike Vrabel so if you are the right prototype - you can adapt to anything. Shane Conlan never played in a 3-4 at Penn State - should Buffalo have refused to draft him for a LBer out of college that played in a 3-4?

 

One of the KEY players for Tennessee is FA LBer David Thornton. I think he could have adapted to any alignment to be brutally honest here. Mathias Kiwanka was starting at OLB when Osi Youmeanwhatever got injured so now Kiwanuka is back to lining up with a hand down If you have the RIGHT guy - he's gonna be flexible enough for formations to change. NE as those guys in Bruschi and Vrable. In fact, Vrable was actually worse when he played in Pittsburgh than when he played in NE. In the pros, he seems better standing up than putting a hand down. Do you need more examples? Jevon Kearse was a standup LBer at Florida and in the pros he plays with a hand down every play. Right guy? Jamir Miller transitioned from standup LBer to playing better with a hand down. Right guy? Bottom line: that's why they say take the best athlete available. When you have alot of these types - it's amazing how crerative and innovative you can be with chess matchups on Sundays.

- Tom F.

 

[We need Tom Tupa]

Are you trying to argue that Vilma or June would be good 3-4 LBs, or are you trying to make a new list? It looks like you start out with the former and shift gears half way through.

 

If you think Vilma would make a good 3-4 LB, maybe you should tell Mangini. He dumped him because he didnt fit the scheme. Every Jet fan and commentator say it coming a year in advance.

[Guest Aloysius]

Mathias Kiwanka was starting at OLB when Osi Youmeanwhatever got injured so now Kiwanuka is back to lining up with a hand down If you have the RIGHT guy - he's gonna be flexible enough for formations to change.

FWIW, the Browns weren't too high on Kiwi as a 3-4 OLB. And I'm not sure many people were predicting that he'd be able to play 4-3 OLB.

[Timugen]

 

 

Let me attempt to fill in for Flugs on this one....

 

 

 

Rhetoric.

Hyperbole.

Rhetoric?

<insert King James Bible>

Hyperbole.

Hyperbole.

<insert War and Peace>

Rhetoric?

<insert Encyclopedia Britannica>

Hyperbole?

Hyperbole.

[Tobalaz]

Let me attempt to fill in for Flugs on this one....

 

 

 

Rhetoric.

Hyperbole.

Rhetoric?

<insert King James Bible>

Hyperbole.

Hyperbole.

<insert War and Peace>

Rhetoric?

<insert Encyclopedia Britannica>

Hyperbole?

Hyperbole.

Think you forgot the exorcism of AFL championships speech somewhere in there.

 

 

[Flugel]

Let me attempt to fill in for Flugs on this one....

 

 

 

Rhetoric.

Hyperbole.

Rhetoric?

<insert King James Bible>

Hyperbole.

Hyperbole.

<insert War and Peace>

Rhetoric?

<insert Encyclopedia Britannica>

Hyperbole?

Hyperbole.

 

Never expected better from you Tim. GREAT contibutions to the board so far. Way to hang in there. Looking forward to your next insults. Now that the political board needed a babysitter or a shutdown - I feel so priviledged I get to deal with the colicky people that ruined that board. Lucky me!

 

Savage Nation defines reality as "over-the-top" while they have convinced themselves we're the 72 Dolphins without Don Shula but shhhhhhhh! Let them be heard. We a quick fix from paradise but that ain't rhetoric or jibberish. Meanwhile, the scorebaord reads the Browns are averaging 6 wins a year while our overall record in the Savage era for this extremely talented team is now 24-34. That's an average of 6 wins a year. Got me THERE kids!

- Tom F.

[Flugel]

FWIW, the Browns weren't too high on Kiwi as a 3-4 OLB. And I'm not sure many people were predicting that he'd be able to play 4-3 OLB.

 

 

I know - we have Kam Wimbley that noone has EVER complained about instead. Good point! Thanks for clearing THAT one up.You DO realize before Osi got hurt the play was to STANDUP Kiwanuka at OLBer in 2008.

 

And Tupa, you DO realize Vilma went to the SAME college using the SAME formations Ray Lewis and Vince Wilfork came from. BOTH guys can play in a 3-4 or 4-3 or they wouldn't have experienced the success rates they have thus far. Why wouldn't Vilma be able to play in a 3-4? That's what the Jets were running when they drafted him. Was he the Defensive Rookie of the Year in the AFC? In addition, you thinking Savage is outstanding - he took Leon Williams from guess where? Same college kid!

 

Like I said, if you're good enough as a LBer you can play in a 3-4. You just want more explanation so your Savage Nation buddies can cry rhetoric at me. I think it's explained considerably well because you just gave my explanation a deaf ear and re-asked the question a different way. Ray Lewis didn't play in a 3-4 in college nor did Leon Williams nor did Vince Wilfork - they just had the athletic versatility to be awesome for the style. As I explained, ALOT of guys now playing in 3-4s played in 4-3s in college like Mike Vrable. Teddy Bruschi was DE on the Desert Storm team and he was moved to an ILBer. All that info ain't convenient so you and someone like Timugen call it rhetoric.

 

And guys like Clay Matthews and Harry Carson could play in a 3-4 or a 4-3. If Vilma was a rookie of the year - I can say I think he's a talented LBer that can play in a 3-4 or a 4-3 with a great deal of confidence. I think football teams are better off drafting MORE versatile guys than the Wali Rainer types that are limited to 1 system over the other.

 

Another thing, if Leon Williams was too stupid to stay on the field in Miami's college schemes - is he REALLY a better LBer for us than someone like Vilma from the SAME college? Vilma's strength is instincts if you watch him play. He makes a ton of tackles at the line of scrimmage. Guess what scheme the NY Jets were running when they drafted him? A 3-4.

 

- Tom F. (The Pittsburgh Steeler fans love Phil Savage and why shouldn't they? They've never been this undefeated against us. But Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, we're gonna need pacifiers if I say that too loud.)

[DTBH]

Jesus, Flugel. You've taken this thing to nearly DA vs. BQ levels with the use of the word "nation". Next thing we know you'll be calling people Savage-fags.

 

I myself think Savage has done a pretty good job drafting and improving the personnel, though his strategy for doing some of it may not be so perfect.

 

You've got to keep this in mind...Romeo Crennel's defense isn't going to help any GM. It's not going to make any linebacker look like a star. The corners and safeties will always be hung out to dry in Crennel's cowardly, pillow defense.

 

I still retain judgement on Savage until we see his personnel maximized.

 

Among his many, many good moves, these are the only failures I see...

 

1.) D'Qwell Jackson, though a good smart young linebacker, doesn't belong in the 3-4.

2.) Maybe putting a little too much money into going for the "whole thing" right now.

3.) Donte Stallworth

4.) Signing DA instead of trading him for a 1st/3rd, or whatever he could have gotten.

 

That's about it. The jury is still out on Wimbley, and I don't blame him for not signing another corner. If Crennel woudl blitz once a year, our current corners wouldn't look so bad. Harrison's misuse isn't his fault, nor are Edwards' hands, nor are the injuries to Holly, Robaire, JJ, K2 previously, and Edwards previously. You can say what you want about he should have depth, but remember it's only his 4th year.

 

You can't expect a guy to build an amazign 53 man roster by his 4th year. I'd say he's done a lot more good than bad.

 

What do you think Savage's win-loss record would be with, say, Bill Cowher as head coach? His personnel might look a ton better then.

[Flugel]

Are you trying to argue that Vilma or June would be good 3-4 LBs, or are you trying to make a new list? It looks like you start out with the former and shift gears half way through.

 

If you think Vilma would make a good 3-4 LB, maybe you should tell Mangini. He dumped him because he didnt fit the scheme. Every Jet fan and commentator say it coming a year in advance.

 

That's funny because that's exactly what the Jets were running when they drafted him. You DO know he was defensive Rookie of the Year in the 3-4 scheme right? But here's some stuff about Vilma as you assure everyone Jackson, Davis and Williams are better LBers for our 3-4.

 

"In his final year, Vilma led the team in tackles for a second time with 127 (81 solo), notched a sack, forced one fumble, and recovered three fumbles. Vilma ended the year as a finalist for the Butkus Award. Along with his success on the field, Vilma was a three-time Academic All-Big East Conference. He received a Bachelor's degree in finance from the University of Miami's well-respected School of Business Administration.

 

Pre-draft measurables

4.54 40 Yard Dash

37 Inch Vertical

23 Bench Reps

6.67 Three-Cone Drill

4.20 Short Shuttle

10-foot-1 Broad Jump

 

New York Jets

Vilma was drafted by the Jets with the 12th selection in the 2004 NFL Draft.

 

2004

In 2004, Vilma was named as the NFL Defensive Rookie of the Year by the Associated Press. During his rookie campaign, he recorded 108 tackles, two sacks, and three interceptions, including one which was returned for his first NFL touchdown.

 

2005

In 2005, Vilma led the NFL in tackles with 173, forced four fumbles, notched one fumble recovery, half a sack, and one interception. Vilma also replaced Zach Thomas at the 2006 Pro Bowl.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Gee, you got me there!

- Tom F.

[DTBH]

BTW-I'd like Vilma in the 3-4. He is the same mold as Ray Lewis, like Flug said. He's physical as hell, can knock someones head off, and get off blocks consistently. I thought him leaving NYJ had more to do with his attitude than his scheme fitting.

[DTBH]

To put it differently, we had what, 6 pro-bowl players last year? And that's before Rogers took one snap on the Browns, before Quinn took any legit playing time. And we also had a 1300 yard rusher who probably belonged there.

 

The personell is there, for the most part. Our linebacking group is the only place I will say that our weakness there is Savage's fault. The corners wouldn't be so bad if Crennel would blitz and Holly stayed healthy, and if JJ never got injured, we'd be fine at wR. Same with Robaire at DE and Tucker on the O-line.

 

Again, after 4 years, you just can't expect him to have enough depth to cover up all those injuries. He'd have to hit a homerun with every draft pick. And he probably would if Crennel would maximize his talent.

[We need Tom Tupa]

NYT:

The Jets took Robertson with the fourth pick in the 2003 draft, but he struggled when Coach Eric Mangini installed the 3-4 scheme after arriving in 2006. So did Vilma, who made his exit Friday, going to New Orleans for an undisclosed draft pick.

Sporting News:

Vilma was on the road to stardom in his first two seasons after being the 12th overall pick in the 2004 draft out of Miami (Fla.). He fell out of favor when Eric Mangini took over as coach in 2006 and installed a 3-4 defense; Vilma is better suited to playing in the middle of a 4-3 scheme.

ESPN.com:

Vilma, who missed the last nine weeks of last season with an injured right knee, saw his production decline the last two seasons after coach Eric Mangini took over and installed a 3-4 defensive scheme.

NY Daily News:

Jonathan Vilma's days with the Jets are numbered.

The popular linebacker, whose star has dimmed in two seasons under Eric Mangini, has received permission from the Jets to shop himself for a potential trade, the Daily News has learned. It doesn't mean a trade is a certainty, but it's a tacit acknowledgement from both sides that Vilma and Mangini's 3-4 scheme aren't a match.

NOLA.com headline:

New Orleans Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma welcomes return to 4-3 defense

Footballguys.com:

With his speed and tenacity, Vilma was a perfect fit in the Jets 4-3 defense which didn't burden him with a great deal of responsibility and allowed him to simply make his way to the ball. In '06 the Jets new/current coaching staff came into the picture, bringing with it a 3-4 defensive scheme in which Vilma was a square peg in a round hole. With too many responsibilities away from the ball and too much thinking, the new scheme simply didn't play to the strength of Vilma's game. As a result he was uncomfortable, unhappy and far less productive.

He played well in Donnie Henderson's 3-4, which uses MLBs very differently than the 3-4 run by Mangini or Crennel. Some people dont even consider it similar to other 3-4s at all, Vilma included. Here is Vilma before the 2007 season:

This will be my second year in a '3-4' defense, a '3-4' scheme.

[Timugen]

Never expected better from you Tim. GREAT contibutions to the board so far. Way to hang in there. Looking forward to your next insults. Now that the political board needed a babysitter or a shutdown - I feel so priviledged I get to deal with the colicky people that ruined that board. Lucky me!

 

Savage Nation defines reality as "over-the-top" while they have convinced themselves we're the 72 Dolphins without Don Shula but shhhhhhhh! Let them be heard. We a quick fix from paradise but that ain't rhetoric or jibberish. Meanwhile, the scorebaord reads the Browns are averaging 6 wins a year while our overall record in the Savage era for this extremely talented team is now 24-34. That's an average of 6 wins a year. Got me THERE kids!

- Tom F.

 

 

Jesus, Flugs....have a drink and un-bunch your panties.

 

I was just givin' ya a hard time, man.

 

 

[Flugel]

NYT:

 

Sporting News:

 

ESPN.com:

 

NY Daily News:

 

NOLA.com headline:

 

Footballguys.com:

 

He played well in Donnie Henderson's 3-4, which uses MLBs very differently than the 3-4 run by Mangini or Crennel. Some people dont even consider it similar to other 3-4s at all, Vilma included. Here is Vilma before the 2007 season:

 

John Abraham and Dwayne Robertson played in a 3-4 for the Jets BEFORE Mangini as did Robertson. He was drafted to play NT.

 

Again though Leon Wiliams AND Ray Lewis AND Jon Vilma all played at the U of Miami as did Vince Wilfork and NONE of them played in a 3-4 until the pros and did well.

 

What you're leaving out is Vilma had a knee injury in 2007. But that's what you always do in your political arguements tooo is you leave out important pieces of info to suit your side of an arguement so I'm just wasting toime. Keep on pretending the RIGHT guys couldn't play in either system.

 

Vrable played in a 4-3 in college - did great in a 3-4 in NE.

 

Clay Matthews could play in either scheme.

 

Harry Carson played in a 3-4 and a 4-3 and was great at both.

 

Brsuchi was a DE in college and an ILBer in a 3-4 in the pros.

 

It's called drafting the right guys.

 

Vilma was AFC Rookie of the Year.

 

Not sure WHEN the Jets stopped their 3-4 prior to Mangini but just a reminder John Abraham was playing the elephant in a 3-4 while Roberston's position was Nose Tackle. Remember the Jets beating SD and then playing Pitt in the post season? They ran a 3-4. That's not convenient to this debate because you read a columnist thinking Mangini introduced a 3-4 to the NY Jets. Hard to argue with you when you're acting like Christopher Columbus telling the native indians he discovered America. Whatever you want to hear Tupa.

- Tom F.