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Best Browns #1 draft pick ever


The Gipper

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Here is a list of the players selected by the Browns in the First Round of the Draft in their history:

 

)

1950 13 Ken Carpenter WR/RB Oregon State

1951 14 Kenny Konz DB Louisiana State

1952 10 Bert Rechichar DB/RB/K/LB/P Tennessee [1]

12 Harry Agganis QB Boston [2]

1953 11 Doug Atkins † DL/E Tennessee

1954 1 Bobby Garrett * QB Stanford [3]

12 John Bauer OL Illinois

1955 13 Kurt Burris CB/LB Oklahoma

1956 13 Preston Carpenter E/RB/TE Arkansas

1957 6 Jim Brown † FB Syracuse

1958 13 Jim Shofner DB Texas Christian

1959 11 Rich Kreitling WR/E Illinois

1960 8 Jim Houston DL/LB Ohio State

1961 10 Bobby Crespino WR/E/TE Mississippi [4]

1962 4 Gary Collins WR/P Maryland [5]

11 Leroy Jackson RB Western Illinois [6]

1963 9 Tom Hutchinson E/WR Kentucky

1964 11 Paul Warfield † WR/E Ohio State

1965 — — No Pick — — [7]

1966 14 Milt Morin TE Massachusetts

1967 18 Bob Matheson DL/LB Duke

1968 21 Marv Upshaw DL/K Trinity (Texas)

1969 20 Ron Johnson RB Michigan

1970 3 Mike Phipps QB Purdue [8]

21 Bob McKay OT Texas

1971 14 Clarence Scott DB Kansas

1972 18 Thom Darden DB Michigan

1973 16 Steve Holden WR Arizona State [9]

22 Pete Adams OG USC

1974 — — No Pick — — [10]

1975 5 Mack Mitchell DL Houston

1976 7 Mike Pruitt FB/RB Purdue

1977 17 Robert Jackson LB Texas A&M

1978 12 Clay Matthews LB USC

23 Ozzie Newsome † TE Alabama [11]

1979 20 Willis Adams WR Houston [12]

1980 27 Charles White RB USC [13]

1981 22 Hanford Dixon CB Southern Miss

1982 3 Chip Banks LB/WR USC

1983 — — No Pick — — [14]

1984 18 Don Rogers S UCLA

1985 — — No Pick — — [15]

1986 — — No Pick — — [16]

1987 5 Mike Junkin LB Duke [17]

1988 21 Clifford Charlton LB Florida

1989 13 Eric Metcalf RB/WR Texas [18]

1990 — — No Pick — — [19]

1991 2 Eric Turner DB UCLA

1992 9 Tommy Vardell FB/RB Stanford

1993 14 Steve Everitt C Michigan [20]

1994 9 Antonio Langham CB Alabama

29 Derrick Alexander WR Michigan [21]

1995 30 Craig Powell LB Ohio State [22]

1996 Suspended operations from 1996-1998

1997

1998

1999 1 Tim Couch * QB Kentucky

2000 1 Courtney Brown * DE Penn State

2001 3 Gerard Warren DT Florida

2002 16 William Green RB Boston College [23]

2003 21 Jeff Faine C Notre Dame

2004 6 Kellen Winslow II TE Miami (Florida) [24]

2005 3 Braylon Edwards WR Michigan

2006 13 Kamerion Wimbley LB Florida State [25]

2007 3 Joe Thomas OT Wisconsin [26]

22 Brady Quinn QB Notre Dame [27]

2008 — — No Pick — — [27]

2009 21 — Alex Mack C California [28]

2010 7 — Joe Haden CB Florida

 

 

The following players also have to be placed into this mix as first round picks were traded for them:

 

1962 Ernie Davis RB in trade with Washington

1965 Ted Connolly OG in trade with San Francisco

1974 Bob Babich in trade with San Diego

1983 Tom Cousineau in trade with Buffalo

1985 and 1986 Bernie Kosar in trade with Buffalo

1990 traded for multiple lower round picks previous year

2008 traded for Brady Quinn, already on above list.

 

OK, so, if you would rank say, your Top Ten of all these choices (and bottom 5 or 10 if you would)

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Top Five

 

Jim Brown

Paul Warfield

Gary Collins

 

Bernie Kosar

Mike Pruitt

Eric Metcalf

Ozzie

 

Worst

 

John Bauer

Craig Powell

Brady Quinn

Ted Connally

Kurt Burris

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This thread will suffice in lieu of my usual "Survey Monday" OK? Here are my choices:

 

Studs:

 

1. Jim Brown

2. Paul Warfield

3. Ozzie Newsome

4. Bernie Kosar

5. Clay Mathews

6. Gary Collins

7. Hanford Dixon

8. Eric Metcalf

9. Joe Thomas for his potential

10. Doug Atkins, only here because he made the HOF playing for other teams

 

Duds:

 

1. Craig Powell

2. Mike Junkin

3. Clifford Charlton

4. Bobby Garret (#1 overall QB who proved worthless)

5. Gerard Warren

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Here is a list of the players selected by the Browns in the First Round of the Draft in their history:

 

)

1950 13 Ken Carpenter WR/RB Oregon State

1951 14 Kenny Konz DB Louisiana State

1952 10 Bert Rechichar DB/RB/K/LB/P Tennessee [1]

12 Harry Agganis QB Boston [2]

1953 11 Doug Atkins † DL/E Tennessee

1954 1 Bobby Garrett * QB Stanford [3]

12 John Bauer OL Illinois

1955 13 Kurt Burris CB/LB Oklahoma

1956 13 Preston Carpenter E/RB/TE Arkansas

1957 6 Jim Brown † FB Syracuse

1958 13 Jim Shofner DB Texas Christian

1959 11 Rich Kreitling WR/E Illinois

1960 8 Jim Houston DL/LB Ohio State

1961 10 Bobby Crespino WR/E/TE Mississippi [4]

1962 4 Gary Collins WR/P Maryland [5]

11 Leroy Jackson RB Western Illinois [6]

1963 9 Tom Hutchinson E/WR Kentucky

1964 11 Paul Warfield † WR/E Ohio State

1965 — — No Pick — — [7]

1966 14 Milt Morin TE Massachusetts

1967 18 Bob Matheson DL/LB Duke

1968 21 Marv Upshaw DL/K Trinity (Texas)

1969 20 Ron Johnson RB Michigan

1970 3 Mike Phipps QB Purdue [8]

21 Bob McKay OT Texas

1971 14 Clarence Scott DB Kansas

1972 18 Thom Darden DB Michigan

1973 16 Steve Holden WR Arizona State [9]

22 Pete Adams OG USC

1974 — — No Pick — — [10]

1975 5 Mack Mitchell DL Houston

1976 7 Mike Pruitt FB/RB Purdue

1977 17 Robert Jackson LB Texas A&M

1978 12 Clay Matthews LB USC

23 Ozzie Newsome † TE Alabama [11]

1979 20 Willis Adams WR Houston [12]

1980 27 Charles White RB USC [13]

1981 22 Hanford Dixon CB Southern Miss

1982 3 Chip Banks LB/WR USC

1983 — — No Pick — — [14]

1984 18 Don Rogers S UCLA

1985 — — No Pick — — [15]

1986 — — No Pick — — [16]

1987 5 Mike Junkin LB Duke [17]

1988 21 Clifford Charlton LB Florida

1989 13 Eric Metcalf RB/WR Texas [18]

1990 — — No Pick — — [19]

1991 2 Eric Turner DB UCLA

1992 9 Tommy Vardell FB/RB Stanford

1993 14 Steve Everitt C Michigan [20]

1994 9 Antonio Langham CB Alabama

29 Derrick Alexander WR Michigan [21]

1995 30 Craig Powell LB Ohio State [22]

1996 Suspended operations from 1996-1998

1997

1998

1999 1 Tim Couch * QB Kentucky

2000 1 Courtney Brown * DE Penn State

2001 3 Gerard Warren DT Florida

2002 16 William Green RB Boston College [23]

2003 21 Jeff Faine C Notre Dame

2004 6 Kellen Winslow II TE Miami (Florida) [24]

2005 3 Braylon Edwards WR Michigan

2006 13 Kamerion Wimbley LB Florida State [25]

2007 3 Joe Thomas OT Wisconsin [26]

22 Brady Quinn QB Notre Dame [27]

2008 — — No Pick — — [27]

2009 21 — Alex Mack C California [28]

2010 7 — Joe Haden CB Florida

 

 

The following players also have to be placed into this mix as first round picks were traded for them:

 

1962 Ernie Davis RB in trade with Washington

1965 Ted Connolly OG in trade with San Francisco

1974 Bob Babich in trade with San Diego

1983 Tom Cousineau in trade with Buffalo

1985 and 1986 Bernie Kosar in trade with Buffalo

1990 traded for multiple lower round picks previous year

2008 traded for Brady Quinn, already on above list.

 

OK, so, if you would rank say, your Top Ten of all these choices (and bottom 5 or 10 if you would)

 

 

Best

 

1. Jim Brown

2. Paul Warfield

3. Ozzie Newsome

4. Clay Matthews

5. Bernie Kosar

6. Gary Collins

7. Mike Pruitt

8. Hanford Dixon

9. Eric Turner

10. Thom Darden

 

Chip Banks and Doug Atkins were excellent picks, but Atkins glory came with Bears, Banks spent several years elsewhere as well.

 

Worst

 

1. Phipps

2. Quinn

3. Junkin

4. Powell

5. Charlton

 

Phipps & Quinn because a bad QB will set you back worse than any other position. As far as "Devastating impact" Courtney Brown is way up there too, but at least he had some decent years in the league, those three Linebackers didn't do squat.

 

Zombo

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This thread will suffice in lieu of my usual "Survey Monday" OK? Here are my choices:

 

Studs:

 

1. Jim Brown

2. Paul Warfield

3. Ozzie Newsome

4. Bernie Kosar

5. Clay Mathews

6. Gary Collins

7. Hanford Dixon

8. Eric Metcalf

9. Joe Thomas for his potential

10. Doug Atkins, only here because he made the HOF playing for other teams

 

Duds:

 

1. Craig Powell

2. Mike Junkin

3. Clifford Charlton

4. Bobby Garret (#1 overall QB who proved worthless)

5. Gerard Warren

 

I like your stud list but add Quinn, Brown and Phipps to the duds and take off Warren. He might not have been a stud but as of last year he is still playing (and maybe this year, not sure) He can't be a dud on this list. No way!

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Here is my other 5 Duds. These picks were all prior to 1963 so they are less well known and their impact, or lack thereof is a bit lost, but they should still be counted. Jim Brown was drafted in the 50s, so these guys taken in the 50s have to be compared to that:

 

Harry Agannis. QB. Never played a down for the Browns. Accepted to take an offer with the Red Sox to play baseball. Two years later, he got pneumonia, developed a pulmonary embolism, and died.

 

John Bauer. OL Never played a down for the Browns. Played all of two games with the Giants. That was it for his NFL career.

 

Kurt Burris. CB. Never played a down in the NFL. Went to play in Canada where he did pretty well apparently. Played for 2 Grey Cup Champions.

 

Bobby Crespino. TE. Played 3 years with the Browns, but only caught 6 passes in all those years. Not the kind of production you would expect. ..considering Browns shortly thereafter had good TEs in John Brewer and Milt Morin.

 

Leroy Jackson. RB. Never played a down with the Browns. Played 2 years with Redskins where he had all of 52 carries and 142 yards in his career. Part of the Ernie Davis deal, so perhaps he should get some slack. But, if we are doing this objectively, then his place on the dud list should probably be taken by:

 

Ernie Davis. RB. Never played a down (except in preseason). Died of Leukemia.

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I like your stud list but add Quinn, Brown and Phipps to the duds and take off Warren. He might not have been a stud but as of last year he is still playing (and maybe this year, not sure) He can't be a dud on this list. No way!

 

He was a dud for us, and what he did with the Browns is what counts. If you take him off, then YOU have to take Quinn off. For all we know in the future he may lead a team to a Super Bowl.....after all, he is still playing too. Quinn gave the Browns as much as Warren did.

 

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By the way, on Bobby Garrett. He was the #1 overall selection in the draft as a QB out of Stanford. However, he was cut by the Browns in training camp, picked up by the Packers, threw all of 30 passes and cut by them.

The reason: Uncontrollable stuttering. He couldn't hardly communicate the plays in the huddle or do the snap count. So he was let go and never played again.

Needless to say, the scouting system wasn't as good then as it is now. Such a problem would have obviously been ferreted out before he was drafted. The big question was: how was he able to play so successfully at Stanford with such a problem?

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He was a dud for us, and what he did with the Browns is what counts. If you take him off, then YOU have to take Quinn off. For all we know in the future he may lead a team to a Super Bowl.....after all, he is still playing too. Quinn gave the Browns as much as Warren did.

 

Quinn gave us NOTHING and I doubt if he ever sees the field again in the NFL unless there is a freak rash of injuries!

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Quinn gave us NOTHING and I doubt if he ever sees the field again in the NFL unless there is a freak rash of injuries!

 

OK, but, I think I have documented at least 10 others that gave us less.

And, you can make your own list if you want. That is what you were asked to do. Go do it.

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OK, but, I think I have documented at least 10 others that gave us less.

And, you can make your own list if you want. That is what you were asked to do. Go do it.

 

Yeah I will get on that just because that is what you asked O great one. I found a list that I liked, yours, you should be happy, except for the one glarring flaw. No WAY IN HELL WARREN COMES CLOSE TO MAKING THAT LIST! You can try to justify it away by saying he was a bigger bust for the Browns, but actually some of his best numbers came when he was with the Brown's. And go do a little research and you will find out that their numbers are almost identical for the time they were with the Browns. (See Below) Courtney' only good season was 2000. And Warren is going on his 10th year in the league and Brown is doing what? Not playing thats for sure. Maybe he didn't live up to expected potential but definately NOT A BUST! you have named like 20 busts/duds now and you have him at #5 Just ridiculous IMO.

 

Warren 116 tackles 16.5 sacks 34 assists 4 forced fumbles and 4 fumble recoveries (9 passes defended)

Brown 134 tackles 17 sacks 36 assists 6 forced fumbles and 6 fumble recoveries 1td (8 passes defended)

So in the 4 years for both the difference is.......

 

In favor of Brown mostly.....

18 tackles

.5 sacks

2 assists

2 ff

2 fumble recoveries

1td

-1 pass defended

 

But also keep in mind one was a DE (Brown) And one IS a DT (Warren)

 

Warren also ranks 1532th overall since 1950

Brown ranks 3329th overall since 1950

 

According to Pro Football Reference.com with is the closest thing we have to scientifically rank players based on their performance over time.

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Top 5

1) Jim Brown

2)Ozzie Newsome

3)Bernie Kosar

4)Clay Matthews

5)Hanford Dixon

 

I have to admit I'm showing my age here, I know Gary Collins was a stud, but I never saw him play (same with Jim Brown). I was 7 when my Dad took me to my first game in 1970 vs Cincy. I put Clarence Scott & Thom Darden in that "honorable mention" class.

 

Bottom 5

1)Mike Junkin

2) Willis Adams

3) Mack Mitchell

4) Craig Powell

5)Charles White

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Ernie Davis. RB. Never played a down (except in preseason). Died of Leukemia.

 

Guys whose lives are cut short by leukemia are duds? In my opinion, a 'dud' is either someone who they should have known couldn't play (see Smith, Akili) or someone who failed to deliver when given the opportunity (see Thomas, Blair). There are people who fit the latter who battled injuries (see Bosworth, Brian) but to see a man cut down in his youth and to label him this way is tough for me to swallow.

 

Have you ever met a leukemia patient? I'm sure the last thing on their minds is whether they can play football or not.

 

Just my .02

 

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Yeah I will get on that just because that is what you asked O great one. I found a list that I liked, yours, you should be happy, except for the one glarring flaw. No WAY IN HELL WARREN COMES CLOSE TO MAKING THAT LIST! You can try to justify it away by saying he was a bigger bust for the Browns, but actually some of his best numbers came when he was with the Brown's. And go do a little research and you will find out that their numbers are almost identical for the time they were with the Browns. (See Below) Courtney' only good season was 2000. And Warren is going on his 10th year in the league and Brown is doing what? Not playing thats for sure. Maybe he didn't live up to expected potential but definately NOT A BUST! you have named like 20 busts/duds now and you have him at #5 Just ridiculous IMO.

 

Warren 116 tackles 16.5 sacks 34 assists 4 forced fumbles and 4 fumble recoveries (9 passes defended)

Brown 134 tackles 17 sacks 36 assists 6 forced fumbles and 6 fumble recoveries 1td (8 passes defended)

So in the 4 years for both the difference is.......

 

In favor of Brown mostly.....

18 tackles

.5 sacks

2 assists

2 ff

2 fumble recoveries

1td

-1 pass defended

 

But also keep in mind one was a DE (Brown) And one IS a DT (Warren)

 

Warren also ranks 1532th overall since 1950

Brown ranks 3329th overall since 1950

 

According to Pro Football Reference.com with is the closest thing we have to scientifically rank players based on their performance over time.

 

 

OK, I will replace Warren with C. Brown on my Dud list of 10. Does that make you happy?

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Guys whose lives are cut short by leukemia are duds? In my opinion, a 'dud' is either someone who they should have known couldn't play (see Smith, Akili) or someone who failed to deliver when given the opportunity (see Thomas, Blair). There are people who fit the latter who battled injuries (see Bosworth, Brian) but to see a man cut down in his youth and to label him this way is tough for me to swallow.

 

Have you ever met a leukemia patient? I'm sure the last thing on their minds is whether they can play football or not.

 

Just my .02

 

 

Well, yes, it is a question I stuggled with somewhat, but like you said, should we not put someone on the "Dud" list whose career was curtailed by injury? Those persons are often included in the various "bust" lists. I am not trying to make a moral judgment on Ernie Davis considering the way he perished. Nevertheless, should an illness be considered differently than an injury? Like I said, I struggled with it, but, objectively, you have to say that the team's investment in him was "wasted" albeit tragically.

We could say the same about Don Rogers. He might have become a serious stud, but because he died of a cocaine overdose, he really ends up being a dud. Should the manner of Davis's death vs. the manner of Roger's death affect our evaluation strictly as an asset to the team? I don't know.

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can't decide between Tommy Vardell or Willie Green. guess i'll go with....NEITHER. lol

plenty of fun to poke in that list.

 

i'm gonna hafta say Erocc. in his prime he'd start on any team today...but so would Jim Brown, Clay, Ozzie, Hanford, and Bernie would certainly get consideration.

 

but i still like the excitement Turner brought to every game. he was like a trump card.

now they just drafted two hitters for our backfield. you know i'm stoked to see how this years draft class plays out.

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Well, yes, it is a question I stuggled with somewhat, but like you said, should we not put someone on the "Dud" list whose career was curtailed by injury? Those persons are often included in the various "bust" lists. I am not trying to make a moral judgment on Ernie Davis considering the way he perished. Nevertheless, should an illness be considered differently than an injury? Like I said, I struggled with it, but, objectively, you have to say that the team's investment in him was "wasted" albeit tragically.

We could say the same about Don Rogers. He might have become a serious stud, but because he died of a cocaine overdose, he really ends up being a dud. Should the manner of Davis's death vs. the manner of Roger's death affect our evaluation strictly as an asset to the team? I don't know.

 

A fine point you make but perhaps it needs a little more teasing out: Don Rogers died of a choice he made. That (to me, at least) leaves you on far worse moral ground than someone who was injured in the course of NFL duty or someone who had a serious illness that happened outside of the sports career...(e.g., Lou Gehrig). There is a certain amount of tragedy that we as fans are willing to accept if it's not related to something they chose to do.

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Top 10

 

1. Jim Brown

2. Bernie Kosar

3. Paul Warfield

4. Joe Thomas

5. Ozzie Newsome

6. Hanford Dixon

7. Eric Metcalf

8. Alex Mack

9. Clay Matthews

10. Mike Pruitt

 

Bottom 10 (notice most from new Browns)

 

1. Gerard Warren

2. Tim Couch

3. Brady Quinn

4. William Green

5. Jeff Faine

6. Courtney Brown

7. Mack Mitchell

8. Mike Phipps

9. Charles White

10. Kellen Winslow Jr.

 

 

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Bottom 10 (notice most from new Browns)

 

 

 

No wonder since most around here don't remember players like:

 

Preston Carpenter

Bobby Crespino

Pete Adams

Willis Adams.

 

 

 

Hands down the worst pick was Couch.

 

That may have been the most important pick in out history, and it was totally flubbed.

 

 

 

#1...the guy sucked.

 

#2..as a new team, we had no business selecting a QB with a line and skill players that totally sucked.

 

 

The pick sucked from every aspect possible.

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A fine point you make but perhaps it needs a little more teasing out: Don Rogers died of a choice he made. That (to me, at least) leaves you on far worse moral ground than someone who was injured in the course of NFL duty or someone who had a serious illness that happened outside of the sports career...(e.g., Lou Gehrig). There is a certain amount of tragedy that we as fans are willing to accept if it's not related to something they chose to do.

 

 

OK, but, strictly, this thread is about which draft choices that #1 picks were used on contributed the MOST to the Browns success, and which contributed the LEAST to the Brown success. And in reality, I don't think from that narrow viewpoint we can judge something like: Davis had a good death and Rogers had a bad death. I didn't intend this thread to judge their lives or the manner they died, just what they gave to this team.

Davis gave nothing, and Rogers gave little. The demise of each of them, regardless of the manner hurt the team just as much as Bobby Garrett who couldn't play because he couldn't control his stutter.

Bottom line: they were both failed picks from the football standpoint.

Talking about the manner of their deaths or the way they led their lives is a whole other train track to be riding on.

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WOW! You guys draft really early! No wonder the teams have been so talent laden?

 

 

Early? What? Like 7:00 A.M.?

 

Or do you mean early in the draft like in high in the draft?

Do you think we are as stupid as you that we don't know how poorly some of those high pick have failed to pan out?

What do you think was the point of this exercise?

If you were paying one bit of attention, you would have noted that there were more bad #1 picks taken back in the 50s than there have been lately.

Why don't you go to your own team's board and conduct the same exercise. Go list all their first round draft picks since they began doing this in 1936 and have your group over there figure out who were Studs and who were Duds and report back to us what yinzers came up with. It is probably easy to do the studs. You probably have the likes of Green, Bradshaw, Harris, Dudley, Woodson. But what about the Duds. You tell us.

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No wonder since most around here don't remember players like:

 

Preston Carpenter

Bobby Crespino

Pete Adams

Willis Adams.

 

 

 

Hands down the worst pick was Couch.

 

That may have been the most important pick in out history, and it was totally flubbed.

 

 

 

#1...the guy sucked.

 

#2..as a new team, we had no business selecting a QB with a line and skill players that totally sucked.

 

 

The pick sucked from every aspect possible.

 

 

Couch would probably NOT be in my bottom 20 or 25. In fact he would barely be in the bottom 10 of picks just since 1999! The ONLY guys taken in the first round since 1999 in fact who have been more productive than Couch for this team have perhaps been K2, JT and Mack....and Mack is only there based on his perceived quality potential. Couch has certainly been more productive than Quinn, Wimbley, Edwards, Green, Warren, Faine, or C. Brown. And all those guys from the 50s that I detailed!

Nevertheless, I completely agree with your point #2. They had no business taking a QB #1 overall if they weren't going to give him any help.

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OK, but, I think I have documented at least 10 others that gave us less.

And, you can make your own list if you want. That is what you were asked to do. Go do it.

 

You documented nothing..........copied my replies for the two biggest busts.............get down from your exalted horse of ether

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Couch would probably NOT be in my bottom 20 or 25. In fact he would barely be in the bottom 10 of picks just since 1999! The ONLY guys taken in the first round since 1999 in fact who have been more productive than Couch for this team have perhaps been K2, JT and Mack....and Mack is only there based on his perceived quality potential. Couch has certainly been more productive than Quinn, Wimbley, Edwards, Green, Warren, Faine, or C. Brown. And all those guys from the 50s that I detailed!

Nevertheless, I completely agree with your point #2. They had no business taking a QB #1 overall if they weren't going to give him any help

.

 

 

I don't agree about his production, but that isn't the point I wish to debate as there is no real way to conclude such discussion.

 

The last point is how I arrive at Couch being the worst pick.

 

 

To me, your question isn't simply limited to the player and his production. It also encompasses what the pick meant to the organization. That first pick after our return was the biggest pick, as in most important in team history....and it was TOTALLY blown. To me it was as much a PR move as it was anything else.

 

If we were to limit the factors simply to production, then Ernie Davis was the worst pick since he had zero production because he died. It doesn't get much worse than that as far as production.

 

 

Really, we are still reeling from that pick. No other blown pick had lingering effects 10-11 years later.

 

 

Nope...the Couch pick set this whole thing rolling and it has snow balled from there.

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You documented nothing..........copied my replies for the two biggest busts.............get down from your exalted horse of ether

 

 

OK, I gave a synopsis of their contribution to the team....or lack thereof. I guess if you don't want to call that "documentation" that is up to you. I didn't think it was necessary to give each players complete resume.

But I think it is still by any objective measure a fact that a person that played and produced for this team for maybe 5 years was a better pick than someone who didn't play a down, or played very little.

You may have your subjective view on why you may not have liked the Couch pick, but the fact is, under objective standards, he gave a lot more for this team than tons of others of the Browns 1st round picks.

(and excuse me if I have you confused with someone else. Correct me if I am wrong about what you were talking about)

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I don't agree about his production, but that isn't the point I wish to debate as there is no real way to conclude such discussion.

 

The last point is how I arrive at Couch being the worst pick.

 

 

To me, your question isn't simply limited to the player and his production. It also encompasses what the pick meant to the organization. That first pick after our return was the biggest pick, as in most important in team history....and it was TOTALLY blown. To me it was as much a PR move as it was anything else.

 

If we were to limit the factors simply to production, then Ernie Davis was the worst pick since he had zero production because he died. It doesn't get much worse than that as far as production.

 

 

Really, we are still reeling from that pick. No other blown pick had lingering effects 10-11 years later.

 

 

Nope...the Couch pick set this whole thing rolling and it has snow balled from there.

 

But, you have to consider the counterargument that...in fact, the Browns with Couch as their primary QB made the playoffs in his 4th year as starting QB, and in fact if the team is reeling, it was not from the pick of him at QB. He did fine. It was the poor performance of the front office and coaching staff thereafter. To me, it was the poor picks of Courtney Brown, Gerrard Warren, William Green and others, and the failure of that front office to obtain a decent OLine and the meltdown/megalomania of Butch Davis that were far more the cause of this franchise "reeling" than the pick and performance of Tim Couch. Hell, in my view, selecting him may in fact have been the best move they made during those first 5 years after 1999. Though I agree picking him was as much a PR move as anything, I believe to this day his selection was probably one of the better ones made in the last 11 years.

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