TheClevelandSound Posted July 1, 2010 Report Share Posted July 1, 2010 First, here is the list of the NFL Networks top ten return men: 10. Dante Hall 9. Desmond Howard 8. Eric Metcalf 7. Gale Sayers 6. Rick Upchurch 5. Mel Gray 4. Deion Sanders 3. Billy Johnson 2. Brian Mitchell 1. Devin Hester Ok, how the hell does JC not make the list? He is better than any one of those guys and has broken all of their records. It can't be because he is still in the league because so is Devin Hester. Im outraged! Help me out here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
professor_g Posted July 1, 2010 Report Share Posted July 1, 2010 I couldn't agree more. Ridiculous! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted July 1, 2010 Report Share Posted July 1, 2010 He should be on it, but I wouldn't say he is better than all of them. I am not going to do any research, but maybe average per touch played a part in the rankings.....I can tell you right now i would rather have Deion Sanders, Sayers, and maybe even Gray. But I understand your point. Cribbs deserves mention. He's earned it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJ_Browns Posted July 1, 2010 Report Share Posted July 1, 2010 First, here is the list of the NFL Networks top ten return men: 10. Dante Hall 9. Desmond Howard 8. Eric Metcalf 7. Gale Sayers 6. Rick Upchurch 5. Mel Gray 4. Deion Sanders 3. Billy Johnson 2. Brian Mitchell 1. Devin Hester Ok, how the hell does JC not make the list? He is better than any one of those guys and has broken all of their records. It can't be because he is still in the league because so is Devin Hester. Im outraged! Help me out here. unbelievable. cribbs should be somewhere on that list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Mike Posted July 1, 2010 Report Share Posted July 1, 2010 I've seen ALL those guys & I wouldn't trade Cribbs for ANY of them! I loved Gale Sayers & would have him right there with Cribbs in the excitement category, but Sayers was too often injured. If you factor in speed, moves, power, durability, & results, Josh Cribbs is in a class by himself. It is just my opinion that JC is the best of the bunch & I'll not change my mind. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roach Posted July 1, 2010 Report Share Posted July 1, 2010 It is more than a little goofy that Cribbs isn't on the list. Is there a way to tell what year that list was assembled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted July 1, 2010 Report Share Posted July 1, 2010 First, here is the list of the NFL Networks top ten return men: Ok, how the hell does JC not make the list? He is better than any one of those guys and has broken all of their records. It can't be because he is still in the league because so is Devin Hester. Im outraged! Help me out here. Well, Josh hasn't broken all of their records. A lot of the guys on that list are on it due to longevity, Like Mitchell, who probably put the # of kickoff returns out of reach. Heavily skewed to punt returns too, and if you factor that in Josh is good, but not in the top 25 (PRs). Metcalf's on the list because of his 10 punt return TDs. Gayle Sayers had an incredible 30+ yards per return on KOs, so that's why he rates. Yeah, I'm old enough to have seen him play, and he was an earlier version of Eric Metcalf with his moves. But I agree, to put Hester #1, and not even have Josh on the list is an insult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted July 1, 2010 Report Share Posted July 1, 2010 First, here is the list of the NFL Networks top ten return men: 10. Dante Hall 9. Desmond Howard 8. Eric Metcalf 7. Gale Sayers 6. Rick Upchurch 5. Mel Gray 4. Deion Sanders 3. Billy Johnson 2. Brian Mitchell 1. Devin Hester Ok, how the hell does JC not make the list? He is better than any one of those guys and has broken all of their records. It can't be because he is still in the league because so is Devin Hester. Im outraged! Help me out here. The only thing I can think is that though Cribbs is the all time leader in Kickoff Returns, he only has 2 punt returns for TDs in his career. You know who the leader in career punt returns for TDs is? Another Cleveland Brown. Eric Metcalf. Though not all of his PR TDs were with the Browns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaak Posted July 1, 2010 Report Share Posted July 1, 2010 Dante Hall Kick Returns 426 returns for 10,136 yards, 23.8 average, 6TDs, and 10 Fumbles Punt Returns 216 returns for 2,261 yards, 10.5 average, 6 TDS, and 6 Fumbles Desmond Howard Kick Returns 359 returns for 7,959 yards, 22.2 average, 0 TDS, 4 Fumbles Punt returns 244 returns for 2,895 yards, 11.9 average, 8 TDS, 7 Fumbles Eric Metcalf Kick Returns 280 returns for 5,813 yards, 20.8 average, 2 TDS, 3 Fumbles Punt Returns 351 returns for 3,453 yards, 9.8 average, 10 TDS, 26 Fumbles Gale Sayers Kick Returns 91 returns for 2,781 yards, 30.6 average, 6 TDS, 0 Fumbles Punt Returns 27 returns for 391 yards, 14.5 average, 2 TDS, 0 Fumbles Rick Upchurch Kick Returns 95 returns for 2,355 yards, 24.8 average, 0 TDS, 0 Fumbles Punt Returns 248 returns for 3,008 yards, 12.1 average, 8 TDS, 0 Fumbles Mel Gray Kick Returns 421 returns for 10,250 yards, 24.3 average, 6 TDS, 9 Fumbles Punt Returns 252 returns for 2,753 yards, 10.9 average, 3 TDS, 7 Fumbles Deion Sanders Kick Returns 155 returns for 3,523 yards, 22.7 average, 3 TDS, 4 Fumbles Punt Returns 212 returns for 2,199 yards, 10.4 average, 6 TDS, 5 Fumbles Billy Johnson Kick Returns 123 returns for 2,941 yards, 23.9 average, 2 TDS, 0 Fumbles Punt Returns 282 returns for 3,317 yards, 11.8 average, 6 TDS, 0 Fumbles Brian Mitchell Kick Returns 607 returns for 14,014 yards, 23.1 average, 4 TDS, 14 Fumbles Punt Returns 463 returns for 4,999 yards, 10.8 average, 9 TDS, 19 fumbles Devin Hester Kick Returns 101 returns for 2,297 yards, 22.7 average, 4 TDS, 5 Fumbles Punt Returns 145 returns for 1,636 yards, 11.3 average, 7 TDS, 15 Fumbles Josh Cribbs Kick Returns 265 returns for 7,049 yards, 26.6 average, 8 TDS, 6 Fumbles Punt Returns 103 returns for 1,141 yards, 11.1 average, 2 TDS, 7 Fumbles Based on the above stats, I can't see how Josh isn't at least in the middle of the pack, and how the hell Hester even made the list, let alone #1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted July 1, 2010 Report Share Posted July 1, 2010 Whats shocking is the number of fumbles for Sayers, Upchurch and Johnson. Was that stat not recorded in those days? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted July 1, 2010 Report Share Posted July 1, 2010 Try ranking these players in each category: yards per KO return, KO return TDs, yards per punt return, Punt return TD etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheClevelandSound Posted July 1, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2010 It is more than a little goofy that Cribbs isn't on the list. Is there a way to tell what year that list was assembled? It was made a few weeks ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaak Posted July 1, 2010 Report Share Posted July 1, 2010 Whats shocking is the number of fumbles for Sayers, Upchurch and Johnson. Was that stat not recorded in those days? My guess is that fumbles weren't recorded as an official stat that early on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaak Posted July 2, 2010 Report Share Posted July 2, 2010 Try ranking these players in each category: yards per KO return, KO return TDs, yards per punt return, Punt return TD etc. Ok, I ranked them in Average KR, KR TDs, Average PR, KR TD, Total Average KR, Total TDs Then I weighted them points 11 through 1 based on the place of each ranking. If there was a tie, I added the placements those tied players would take and divided by the number of players for their total points. KR Ave Gale Sayers 11 Josh Cribbs 10 Rick Upchurch 9 Mel Gray 8 Billy Johnson 7 Dante Hall 6 Brian Mitchell 5 Deion Sanders 3.5 Devin Hester 3.5 Desmond Howard 2 Eric Metcalf 1 KR TD's Josh Cribbs 11 Dante Hall 9 Gale Sayers 9 Mel Gray 9 Brian Mitchell 6.5 Devin Hester 6.5 Deion Sanders 5 Eric Metcalf 3.5 Billy Johnson 3.5 Desmond Howard 1.5 Rick Upchurch 1.5 PR Ave Gale Sayers 11 Rick Upchurch 10 Desmond Howard 9 Billy Johnson 8 Devin Hester 7 Josh Cribbs 6 Mel Gray 5 Brian Mitchell 4 Dante Hall 3 Deion Sanders 2 Eric Metcalf 1 PR TDs Eric Metcalf 11 Brian Mitchell 10 Desmond Howard 8.5 Rick Upchurch 8.5 Devin Hester 7 Dante Hall 5 Deion Sanders 5 Billy Johnson 5 Mel Gray 3 Josh Cribbs 1.5 Gale Sayers 1.5 Total Ave Gale Sayers 11 Josh Cribbs 10 Mel Gray 9 Dante Hall 8 Desmond Howard 7 Brian Mitchell 6 Devin Hester 5 Rick Upchurch 4 Deion Sanders 3 Billy Johnson 2 Eric Metcalf 1 Total TDs Brian Mitchell 11 Dante Hall 9.5 Eric Metcalf 9.5 Devin Hester 8 Josh Cribbs 7 Mel Gray 5.5 Deion Sanders 5.5 Desmond Howard 2.5 Gale Sayers 2.5 Rick Upchurch 2.5 Billy Johnson 2.5 Final Rankings Gale Sayers 46 Josh Cribbs 45.5 Brian Mitchell 42.5 Dante Hall 40.5 Mel Gray 39.5 Devin Hester 37 Rick Upchurch 35.5 Desmond Howard 30.5 Billy Johnson 28 Eric Metcalf 27 Deion Sanders 24 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheClevelandSound Posted July 2, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2010 Im still perplexed at the folks at the NFL Network. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cambridgeho Posted July 2, 2010 Report Share Posted July 2, 2010 I seen that Episode like 2 months ago it First aired jun 26 2009, so this past year wasn't included in the stats http://www.nfl.com/nflnetwork/story/09000d...or-third-season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombo Posted July 2, 2010 Report Share Posted July 2, 2010 Ok, I ranked them in Average KR, KR TDs, Average PR, KR TD, Total Average KR, Total TDs Then I weighted them points 11 through 1 based on the place of each ranking. If there was a tie, I added the placements those tied players would take and divided by the number of players for their total points. KR Ave Gale Sayers 11 Josh Cribbs 10 Rick Upchurch 9 Mel Gray 8 Billy Johnson 7 Dante Hall 6 Brian Mitchell 5 Deion Sanders 3.5 Devin Hester 3.5 Desmond Howard 2 Eric Metcalf 1 KR TD's Josh Cribbs 11 Dante Hall 9 Gale Sayers 9 Mel Gray 9 Brian Mitchell 6.5 Devin Hester 6.5 Deion Sanders 5 Eric Metcalf 3.5 Billy Johnson 3.5 Desmond Howard 1.5 Rick Upchurch 1.5 PR Ave Gale Sayers 11 Rick Upchurch 10 Desmond Howard 9 Billy Johnson 8 Devin Hester 7 Josh Cribbs 6 Mel Gray 5 Brian Mitchell 4 Dante Hall 3 Deion Sanders 2 Eric Metcalf 1 PR TDs Eric Metcalf 11 Brian Mitchell 10 Desmond Howard 8.5 Rick Upchurch 8.5 Devin Hester 7 Dante Hall 5 Deion Sanders 5 Billy Johnson 5 Mel Gray 3 Josh Cribbs 1.5 Gale Sayers 1.5 Total Ave Gale Sayers 11 Josh Cribbs 10 Mel Gray 9 Dante Hall 8 Desmond Howard 7 Brian Mitchell 6 Devin Hester 5 Rick Upchurch 4 Deion Sanders 3 Billy Johnson 2 Eric Metcalf 1 Total TDs Brian Mitchell 11 Dante Hall 9.5 Eric Metcalf 9.5 Devin Hester 8 Josh Cribbs 7 Mel Gray 5.5 Deion Sanders 5.5 Desmond Howard 2.5 Gale Sayers 2.5 Rick Upchurch 2.5 Billy Johnson 2.5 Final Rankings Gale Sayers 46 Josh Cribbs 45.5 Brian Mitchell 42.5 Dante Hall 40.5 Mel Gray 39.5 Devin Hester 37 Rick Upchurch 35.5 Desmond Howard 30.5 Billy Johnson 28 Eric Metcalf 27 Deion Sanders 24 Nice work, Thaak! Cribbs is phenomenal. A lot folks don't realize what he has accomplished in his short career so far. And all of those guys were exciting as hell, I always loved the kick return game, such a game-changer. Zombo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medicineman Posted July 2, 2010 Report Share Posted July 2, 2010 We (Cleveland) always get over looked. Fuk the NFL network. We werent even on their list of loyal fans. And on sunday they still show some of the best games from last year and the only 1 I saw that we were on was the game we lost to the Lions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted July 2, 2010 Report Share Posted July 2, 2010 Ok, I ranked them in Average KR, KR TDs, Average PR, KR TD, Total Average KR, Total TDs Then I weighted them points 11 through 1 based on the place of each ranking. If there was a tie, I added the placements those tied players would take and divided by the number of players for their total points. KR Ave Gale Sayers 11 Josh Cribbs 10 Rick Upchurch 9 Mel Gray 8 Billy Johnson 7 Dante Hall 6 Brian Mitchell 5 Deion Sanders 3.5 Devin Hester 3.5 Desmond Howard 2 Eric Metcalf 1 KR TD's Josh Cribbs 11 Dante Hall 9 Gale Sayers 9 Mel Gray 9 Brian Mitchell 6.5 Devin Hester 6.5 Deion Sanders 5 Eric Metcalf 3.5 Billy Johnson 3.5 Desmond Howard 1.5 Rick Upchurch 1.5 PR Ave Gale Sayers 11 Rick Upchurch 10 Desmond Howard 9 Billy Johnson 8 Devin Hester 7 Josh Cribbs 6 Mel Gray 5 Brian Mitchell 4 Dante Hall 3 Deion Sanders 2 Eric Metcalf 1 PR TDs Eric Metcalf 11 Brian Mitchell 10 Desmond Howard 8.5 Rick Upchurch 8.5 Devin Hester 7 Dante Hall 5 Deion Sanders 5 Billy Johnson 5 Mel Gray 3 Josh Cribbs 1.5 Gale Sayers 1.5 Total Ave Gale Sayers 11 Josh Cribbs 10 Mel Gray 9 Dante Hall 8 Desmond Howard 7 Brian Mitchell 6 Devin Hester 5 Rick Upchurch 4 Deion Sanders 3 Billy Johnson 2 Eric Metcalf 1 Total TDs Brian Mitchell 11 Dante Hall 9.5 Eric Metcalf 9.5 Devin Hester 8 Josh Cribbs 7 Mel Gray 5.5 Deion Sanders 5.5 Desmond Howard 2.5 Gale Sayers 2.5 Rick Upchurch 2.5 Billy Johnson 2.5 Final Rankings Gale Sayers 46 Josh Cribbs 45.5 Brian Mitchell 42.5 Dante Hall 40.5 Mel Gray 39.5 Devin Hester 37 Rick Upchurch 35.5 Desmond Howard 30.5 Billy Johnson 28 Eric Metcalf 27 Deion Sanders 24 Nice job. Maybe you should forward that data to the NFL Network and let them see the error of their ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted July 2, 2010 Report Share Posted July 2, 2010 You know, there may be one explanation for why Cribbs is not on the list involved: They may have required a certain minimum number of attempts, and Cribbs, in his short career may not have reached the minimum attempts required to be considered for the list. I mean, its like, he holds the NFL record for most KO returns for a TD, but he hasn't had enough total returns to have his number count on their list!! If true, that would just be further evidence of how phenomenal he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaak Posted July 2, 2010 Report Share Posted July 2, 2010 You know, there may be one explanation for why Cribbs is not on the list involved: They may have required a certain minimum number of attempts, and Cribbs, in his short career may not have reached the minimum attempts required to be considered for the list. I mean, its like, he holds the NFL record for most KO returns for a TD, but he hasn't had enough total returns to have his number count on their list!! If true, that would just be further evidence of how phenomenal he is. Go up a few posts and look at my raw stats. You'll see that Cribbs is middle of the pack in attempts, and there are a couple guys who have less than 100 attempts in both categories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATENEARS Posted July 2, 2010 Report Share Posted July 2, 2010 Btw, good shit Thaak. I just hope I can find this thread six months from now when I wanna call someone out on a Cribbs comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawgPoundPitt Posted July 2, 2010 Report Share Posted July 2, 2010 I watched the same show and JC did get an honorable mention, but this show was recorded before the start of last year....if they remake the show there is no doubt that JC would be on top of the list Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaak Posted July 2, 2010 Report Share Posted July 2, 2010 I watched the same show and JC did get an honorable mention, but this show was recorded before the start of last year....if they remake the show there is no doubt that JC would be on top of the list Yes, but even without last years stats, Cribbs still ends up in the middle of the pack. His average stays about the same, and his TDs drop by 3 total. So instead of being #2 on the list, he would be about #7. He's also been in the league 1 more year than Hester, and last year Hester didn't really do PR's anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaak Posted July 2, 2010 Report Share Posted July 2, 2010 Yes, but even without last years stats, Cribbs still ends up in the middle of the pack. His average stays about the same, and his TDs drop by 3 total. So instead of being #2 on the list, he would be about #7. He's also been in the league 1 more year than Hester, and last year Hester didn't really do PR's anymore. Just to prove my point, I redid the chart figuring Josh Cribbs without 2009. This is the final order Gale Sayers 48 Brian Mitchell 43.5 Mel Gray 42.5 Dante Hall 41.5 Devin Hester 37 Rick Upchurch 36.5 Josh Cribbs 34.5 Desmond Howard 31.5 Billy Johnson 29 Eric Metcalf 27 Deion Sanders 25 He still comes in 7th. Of course that goes to show what a phenomenal year he had in 2009 (4 return TDS). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaak Posted July 2, 2010 Report Share Posted July 2, 2010 I forgot to refigure Hester without 2009 stats, but when I took a look at them... he got no TDs in 2009, and his averages were about the same. So it wouldn't have affected anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaak Posted July 2, 2010 Report Share Posted July 2, 2010 I just redid my chart figuring TDs/KR, TDs/PR, and TDs/Total Returns. TD's/KR Gale Sayers 11 Devin Hester 10 Josh Cribbs 9 Deion Sanders 8 Billy Johnson 7 Mel Gray 6 Dante Hall 5 Eric Metcalf 4 Brian Mitchell 3 Desmond Howard 1.5 Rick Upchurch 1.5 TDs/PR Gale Sayers 11 Devin Hester 10 Desmond Howard 9 Rick Upchurch 8 Eric Metcalf 7 Deion Sanders 6 Dante Hall 5 Billy Johnson 4 Brian Mitchell 3 Josh Cribbs 2 Mel Gray 1 TDs/Total Returns Gale Sayers 11 Devin Hester 10 Josh Cribbs 9 Deion Sanders 8 Rick Upchurch 7 Billy Johnson 6 Eric Metcalf 5 Dante Hall 4 Mel Gray 3 Desmond Howard 2 Brian Mitchell 1 The final total is inclusive of my last figure, the above just adds to it. 1 - Gale Sayers 79 2 - Devin Hester 66.5 3 - Josh Cribbs 65.5 4 - Dante Hall 54.5 5 - Rick Upchurch 52 t6 - Mel Gray 49.5 t6 - Brian Mitchell 49.5 8 - Deion Sanders 46.5 9 - Billy Johnson 45 t10 - Eric Metcalf 43 t10 - Desmond Howard 43 In comparison, without TD's/Return ratios 1 - Gale Sayers 46 2 - Josh Cribbs 45.5 3 - Brian Mitchell 42.5 4 - Dante Hall 40.5 5 - Mel Gray 39.5 6 - Devin Hester 37 7 - Rick Upchurch 35.5 8 - Desmond Howard 30.5 9 - Billy Johnson 28 10 - Eric Metcalf 27 11 - Deion Sanders 24 What this shows, is that Sayers and Hester were lightening in a bottle. Deion was to some extent as well. Cribbs was last year, otherwise he may not have been last on this list without his 2009 numbers. Brian Mitchell is only on the list because he played for 14 years. If I only consider the ratios, the rankings look like: Gale Sayers 33 Devin Hester 30 Deion Sanders 22 Josh Cribbs 20 Billy Johnson 17 Rick Upchurch 16.5 Eric Metcalf 16 Dante Hall 14 Desmond Howard 12.5 Mel Gray 10 Brian Mitchell 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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