Rogers Update

[ClevelandFanForLife]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/...ersion-program/

Shaun Rogers placed in 12-month diversion program

Posted by Evan Silva on July 13, 2010 2:03 PM ET

Browns defensive lineman Shaun Rogers will be placed in a 12-month diversion program Thursday stemming from his April arrest for attempting to board a plane with a loaded handgun, according to the Cleveland Plain Dealer.

 

The program requires Rogers to endure a 10-hour weapons course and perform 40 hours of community service. Upon completion, charges would be dropped.

 

"Shaun is appreciative of the consideration he received in this case," said attorney Patrick D'Angelo. "He understands that this is a serious matter, and he wanted to assure everyone that he did not act intentionally in this case."

 

At the time of the incident, Rogers told airport security that he'd "forgot" the gun was among his luggage.

 

The Browns and the NFL decided to wait out the legal process before taking action against Rogers. In May, Browns president Mike Holmgren informed the Plain Dealer that he indeed expects the league to suspend Rogers.

Just because the charges will be dropped, it doesn't mean he is off the hook with the NFL. He will probably be suspended 2 games.

 

[The Gipper]

Yes, certainly now the NFL can have their way with him.

 

The one thing that wasn't mentioned here which I think somewhere had to be included in his "punishment" is a significant ban (say at least 5 years) on him owning or possessing a weapon, the violation of which could lead to a re-prosecution of the case and significant jail time. The would teach these humps to go around brandishing guns like they were ball point pens.

[choco]

the obligatory "guns are bad and I'm scurred of dem" post by gipper....

 

 

[slowburn]

Yes, certainly now the NFL can have their way with him.

 

The one thing that wasn't mentioned here which I think somewhere had to be included in his "punishment" is a significant ban (say at least 5 years) on him owning or possessing a weapon, the violation of which could lead to a re-prosecution of the case and significant jail time. The would teach these humps to go around brandishing guns like they were ball point pens.

lucky for him he wasn't busted in New York..significant incarceration much more likely in the Empire State

[Westside Steve]

Guns are bad mkay.

 

 

I'm all for gun ownership but fer the love of Pete assholes ought to at least try to be, well, less dangerous assholes.

WSS

[Riffer X]

I wanna know WTF is taking so long for the league office to hand down the suspensions for both Big Baby and Robaire.

 

I imagine the Rooney's are conferring with the league office as we speak on what would be a formidable penalty. Oh let's see, maybe four games each?

[CLEVELandMILIDH]

I wanna know WTF is taking so long for the league office to hand down the suspensions for both Big Baby and Robaire.

 

I imagine the Rooney's are conferring with the league office as we speak on what would be a formidable penalty. Oh let's see, maybe four games each?

 

If they dont announce a suspension before training camp there wont be one.

[Riffer X]

the obligatory "guns are bad and I'm scurred of dem" post by gipper....

 

Well Choke, you gotta admit these guys pack heat like it's just another necklace. I mean, I realize they are in the spotlight and all, but WTF do they need to constantly pack like gangsters for? It can't be that dangerous out there, especially when most of them can afford bodyguards.

 

Let's face it, whether for guns or not, these clowns are all about the bling of a piece. Just another accessory like a diamond stud. They be bad and shit.

[Vagitron]

I wanna know WTF is taking so long for the league office to hand down the suspensions for both Big Baby and Robaire.

 

I imagine the Rooney's are conferring with the league office as we speak on what would be a formidable penalty. Oh let's see, maybe four games each?

 

 

Is that some sort of stupid a$$ backhanded comment on Big Ben's suspension? The Rooney's 100% had plenty to do with Big Ben's suspension. It's the only reason the suspension was that extreme or that he was given a suspension at all. Rogers and Robaire will both get suspended.

[Riffer X]

Is that some sort of stupid a$$ backhanded comment on Big Ben's suspension? The Rooney's 100% had plenty to do with Big Ben's suspension. It's the only reason the suspension was that extreme or that he was given a suspension at all. Rogers and Robaire will both get suspended.

 

Simmer down there snapper.

 

Damn son, I didn't mean for you to get the panties all moistened.

[rich4eagle]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/...ersion-program/

 

Just because the charges will be dropped, it doesn't mean he is off the hook with the NFL. He will probably be suspended 2 games.

 

Geez that means he has 200 oxygen trips for his fat ass ..................between 200 snaps if any..................What a run stuffer.............or snuffer

 

The last of useless Sewage monstrousities about to be gone

 

good riddance to another useless fat ass.............overhyped and useless

[Thaak]

the obligatory "guns are bad and I'm scurred of dem" post by gipper....

 

That is not at all what he did. I think everyone has a right to own a gun, yet if you are going to be irresponsible (as much as I commiserate with the mistake--assuming of course it was actually a mistake--it was irresponsible) you should have the privilege taken away for awhile.

[roach]

Geez that means he has 200 oxygen trips for his fat ass ..................between 200 snaps if any..................What a run stuffer.............or snuffer

 

The last of useless Sewage monstrousities about to be gone

 

good riddance to another useless fat ass.............overhyped and useless

Sure he is a big ass, but he's a beast on the field. He simply pushes guys out of hiw way and he plays full go every down. Does he get special treatment at practice and exhibition games? Sure.

 

i'm pissed because he is an idiot and will likely be suspended. But he makes an impact when he is in there.

 

The Indians spend time with their developmental players teaching them how to speak English. i guess Lerner needs to hire specialist to teach his players how to pack for an airplane ride.

[cdl15]

besides he is going to be a guy thats gonna be grateful to have a job so their shouldn't be any football related problems come up. Kinda what I thought stallworth could of been. Ravens could have a steal there.

[MudratDetector]

I can't afford an SUV so nobody should drive one, I am a coward so we should not fight wars, I'm afraid of guns so nobody should own one, I will look bad when compared to others so profiling should be illegal.

 

you are an idiot

[MudratDetector]

Our first spineless liberal response..................

 

more spine and brain than you could ever aspire for

 

 

 

 

[The Gipper]

the obligatory "guns are bad and I'm scurred of dem" post by gipper....

 

Hello, McFly? Is anybody home? I am talking about the application of the law. A person that is convicted of a felony is what we call "under disability". Maybe you should look up what that term means in the Ohio Revised Code, or the US Code.

In addition, anyone who is on parole, on probation, or under a diversionary program is subject to the conditions placed on it by a court. YOU are a complete and utter fool if you don't think a condition about owning and possessing a gun will not apply to someone in the situation that Rogers is in who has proven that he is irresponsible with his weapon.

How about leaving the thinking to the grownups.

[The Gipper]

I'm all for gun ownership but fer the love of Pete assholes ought to at least try to be, well, less dangerous assholes.

WSS

 

Precisely. I own a rifle. Responsible gun ownership is fine. Irresponsible gun ownership is not.

Its like a DUI. You are free to drive all you want. But you go out and get drunk and drive, your right to drive is going to be seriously curtailed.

[The Gipper]

Is that some sort of stupid a$$ backhanded comment on Big Ben's suspension? The Rooney's 100% had plenty to do with Big Ben's suspension. It's the only reason the suspension was that extreme or that he was given a suspension at all. Rogers and Robaire will both get suspended.

 

Yes, they will. Just like in BR's case, the league is waiting for their situations to be finally adjudicated. When the prosecutor in BR's case announced there would be no charges filed, that finalized the government authorities involvement and the league felt free to act. Same with Rogers. Now that it appears his case is finalized, the league will act soon. Smith's case is still pending to my knowledge...but when it too is finalized, the NFL will act. There is really no difference in any of their situations in terms of when the NFL feels free to take action.

[The Gipper]

Our first spineless liberal response..................

 

I don't see how his response was "liberal" at all. Quite the opposite in fact from my reading.

BTW, I agree with your statement that prompted this tete a tete.

[The Gipper]

guns are the reason you live in a free country, take them away and you will be a slave. then you will have to watch soccer instead of football.

 

 

one good thing is if he gets a 2 game suspension he will be fresh doown the stretch.

 

 

Well, guns are not THE reason you live in a free country. In fact guns may be more useful to a nation of tyranny and slavery. Guns are simply an instrument to preserve the ideas that are in the hearts and minds of men.

Our nation loves liberty, freedom and justice. Weaponry has at times assisted in protecting us and aiding us in keeping these concepts alive and well.

Some nations (at least the ruling class of those nations) love oppression, hatred, authoritarianism, and tyranny as I said. Guns helped those nations perpetuate those traits.

Guns sure helped the Nazis perpetuate their evil.

Guns helped us defeat that evil.

A gun is an inanimate object with no heart, soul, or mind.

A human being, who has the heart, soul, and mind simply wields that inanimate object.

[Thaak]

Well, guns are not THE reason you live in a free country. In fact guns may be more useful to a nation of tyranny and slavery. Guns are simply an instrument to preserve the ideas that are in the hearts and minds of men.

Our nation loves liberty, freedom and justice. Weaponry has at times assisted in protecting us and aiding us in keeping these concepts alive and well.

Some nations (at least the ruling class of those nations) love oppression, hatred, authoritarianism, and tyranny as I said. Guns helped those nations perpetuate those traits.

Guns sure helped the Nazis perpetuate their evil.

Guns helped us defeat that evil.

A gun is an inanimate object with no heart, soul, or mind.

A human being, who has the heart, soul, and mind simply wields that inanimate object

.

 

Not only that, and this is probably a quite controversial statement to make, but the "Right to Bear Arms" has nothing, really, to do with every individual citizen having a particular right to a personal firearm, in-as-much as for personal protection or anything of the such. Rather, when the constitution and its amendments were written, the typical militia (The Revolutionaries) were just dudes who lived on the farm or was a blacksmith in town or whatever. They were just average citizens. The only way for them to be able to fight back against the tyrannical monarchy of England was to have their own firearms. Of course, having a firearm was part of survival (not for personal protection necessarily, although they were used to protect against criminals who used firearms illicitly) for hunting and protecting livestock from wild predators and Steelers fans.

 

This right to have a weapon, has more to do with creating a civilian militia to throw off oppressors and protect your home, city, county, state, and country as a para-military force rather than as a lone individual.

[rich4eagle]

Sure he is a big ass, but he's a beast on the field. He simply pushes guys out of hiw way and he plays full go every down. Does he get special treatment at practice and exhibition games? Sure.

 

i'm pissed because he is an idiot and will likely be suspended. But he makes an impact when he is in there.

 

The Indians spend time with their developmental players teaching them how to speak English. i guess Lerner needs to hire specialist to teach his players how to pack for an airplane ride.

 

on some plays when he plays about 1 of four.............the rest of time he is resting or on the sidelines .......he is a useless piece of shit..............that sums up this experiment

[Skinny]

Precisely. I own a rifle. Responsible gun ownership is fine. Irresponsible gun ownership is not.

Its like a DUI. You are free to drive all you want. But you go out and get drunk and drive, your right to drive is going to be seriously curtailed

.

Two things

 

1 Driving is a privilige...Second Amendment is a right

2 If in fact you think both are alike then why not allow ccl holders to carry in liquor establishments?

[Skinny]

Not only that, and this is probably a quite controversial statement to make, but the "Right to Bear Arms" has nothing, really, to do with every individual citizen having a particular right to a personal firearm, in-as-much as for personal protection or anything of the such. Rather, when the constitution and its amendments were written, the typical militia (The Revolutionaries) were just dudes who lived on the farm or was a blacksmith in town or whatever. They were just average citizens. The only way for them to be able to fight back against the tyrannical monarchy of England was to have their own firearms. Of course, having a firearm was part of survival (not for personal protection necessarily, although they were used to protect against criminals who used firearms illicitly) for hunting and protecting livestock from wild predators and Steelers fans.

 

This right to have a weapon, has more to do with creating a civilian militia to throw off oppressors and protect your home, city, county, state, and country as a para-military force rather than as a lone individual.

"The right of self-defense never ceases. It is among the most sacred, and alike necessary to nations and to individuals."

President James Monroe (November 16, 1818)

 

If we are to ever get to the bottom of the argument surrounding the Right To Keep And Bear Arms (RKBA), then we must go back in time and see what the founders said.

 

Some people, including the ACLU, have asserted that the Second Amendment only protects a state's power to raise and support an armed militia. I have the feeling that if the Founding Father's were alive today, they would have something to say about that...

 

When you are finished reading this page, I guarantee you will say to yourself, hey Marc really knows what he is talking about.

 

I have done entirely enough talking now and I will let the rest of this page speak for the Founding Father's. Let's go back in time and see what they had to say...

 

"On every question of construction (of the Constitution) let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invent against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed."

Thomas Jefferson letter to William Johnson, June 12, 1823

 

Many millions of United States Citizens believe that the Second Amendment ONLY refers to each State's power to form militias. This is simply not the case. The Second Amendment does indeed refer to the right to keep and bear arms as an individual right.

 

When the Second Amendment was written, there wasn't any National Guard. The People were the National Guard. In fact, the National Guard did not exist for another 116 years.

 

Private Firearm ownership is a guarantee against the breaching or transgression of all the other rights reserved to the People. Private and free gun ownership is a guard against any possible tyranny or dictatorships. The Founding Fathers knew what they meant and meant what they wrote.

 

The Founding Fathers clearly did not believe that limiting lawful access to firearms by law-abiding, honest and upright citizens of good moral character would either diminish crime, nor be constitutional.

 

When considering ANY legislation that has the slightest hint of curtailing our freedom and liberty, we should closely examine it as if it was taken to the most extreme limit, then treat it accordingly.

 

"You [should] not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it would do and the harm it would cause if improperly administered."

Lyndon B. Johnson (1908-1973) 37th US President (1963-1969)

 

 

 

Free Shipping on Camping Gear

 

 

 

 

 

Portrait, Thomas Jefferson

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"I hope, therefore, a bill of rights will be formed to guard the people against the Federal government as they are already guarded against their State governments, in most instances."

Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1788. ME 7:98

 

 

 

"I learn with great concern that [one] portion of our frontier so interesting, so important, and so exposed, should be so entirely unprovided with common fire-arms. I did not suppose any part of the United States so destitute of what is considered as among the first necessaries of a farm house."

Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Jacob J. Brown (1808)

 

 

 

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

Thomas Jefferson

 

 

 

"Honor, justice, and humanity, forbid us tamely to surrender that freedom which we received from our gallant ancestors, and which our innocent posterity have a right to receive from us. We cannot endure the infamy and guilt of resigning succeeding generations to that wretchedness which inevitably awaits them if we basely entail hereditary bondage on them."

Thomas Jefferson (Declaration of the Causes and Necessities of Taking up Arms, 6 July 1775)

 

 

 

"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

Thomas Jefferson

 

 

 

"Every citizen should be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free state."

Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), US Founding Father, drafted the Declaration of Independence, 3rd US President

 

 

 

"The constitutions of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property and freedom of the press."

Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), US Founding Father, drafted the Declaration of Independence, 3rd US President

Source a letter from Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright in 1824

 

 

 

"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them."

Thomas Jefferson Letter to George Washington, 1796

 

 

 

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."

Thomas Jefferson, Proposed Virginia Constitution, 1776

 

 

 

"For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well organized and armed militia is their best security."

Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), US Founding Father, drafted the Declaration of Independence, 3rd US President. Source: Eighth Annual Message, November 8, 1808

 

 

 

"None but an armed nation can dispense with a standing army. To keep ours armed and disciplined is therefore at all times important."

Thomas Jefferson 1803

 

 

 

"When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

Thomas Jefferson (attributed without source)

 

 

 

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercise, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks."

Thomas Jefferson's advice to his 15 year-old nephew Peter Carr 1785

 

 

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.... And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms.... The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

Thomas Jefferson, in letter to William S. Smith, 1787

 

 

 

 

"Let us contemplate our forefathers and posterity and resolve to maintain the rights bequeathed to us from the former, for the sake of the latter. The necessity of the times, more than ever, calls for our utmost circumspection, deliberation, fortitude, and perseverance. Let us remember that 'if we suffer tamely a lawless attack upon our liberty, we encourage it, and involve others in our doom.' It is a very serious consideration that millions yet unborn may be the miserable sharers of the event."

Samuel Adams speech, 1771

 

 

 

"Among the natural rights of the colonists are these: first, a right to life, secondly to liberty, thirdly to property; together with the right to defend them in the best manner they can."

Samuel Adams

 

 

 

"[T]he people alone have an incontestable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to institute government and to reform, alter, or totally change the same when their protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness require it."

Samuel Adams

 

 

 

"...It is always dangerous to the liberties of the people to have an army stationed among them, over which they have no control...The Militia is composed of free Citizens. There is therefore no danger of their making use of their power to the destruction of their own Rights, or suffering others to invade them."

Samuel Adams

 

 

 

"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

Samuel Adams, speech at the Philadelphia State House, August 1, 1776.

 

 

 

"The said Constitution [shall] be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms."

Samuel Adams of Massachusetts -- U.S. Constitution ratification convention, 1788

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation... Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."

James Madison, Federalist Papers, #46 at 243-244.

 

 

 

"The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence. It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops."

James Madison, The Federalist Number 46 January 29, 1788

 

 

 

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed, and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country: but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms, shall be compelled to render military service in person."

James Madison, Proposed Amendments to the Constitution June 8, 1789

 

 

 

"Suppose that we let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal: still it would not be going to far to say that the State governments with the people at their side would be able to repel the danger...half a million citizens with arms in their hands"

James Madison, The Federalist Papers

 

 

 

"A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country."

James Madison (1751-1836), Father of the Constitution for the USA, 4th US President

 

 

 

"A people armed and free forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition and is a bulwark for

the nation against foreign invasion and domestic oppression."

James Madison (1751-1836), Father of the Constitution for the USA, 4th US President

 

 

 

"[Tyranny cannot be safe] without a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace."

James Madison, In his autobiography

 

 

 

"The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many, and whether hereditary, self-appointed, or elective, may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny."

James Madison (1751-1836), Father of the Constitution for the USA, 4th US President

 

 

 

"Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense."

John Adams (1735-1826) Founding Father, 2nd US President A Defense of the Constitution of Government of the United States of America, 1788

 

 

 

"You have rights antecedent to all earthly governments: rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived from the Great Legislator of the universe."

John Adams (1735-1826) Founding Father, 2nd US President

 

 

 

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclination, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

John Adams (1735-1826) Founding Father, 2nd US President

 

 

 

"Our obligations to our country never cease but with our lives."

John Adams (1735-1826) Founding Father, 2nd US President

 

 

 

"There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty."

John Adams (1735-1826) Founding Father, 2nd US President

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government."

Alexander Hamilton Federalist #28

 

 

 

"Let us recollect that peace or war will not always be left to our option; that however moderate or unambitious we may be, we cannot count upon the moderation, or hope to extinguish the ambition of others. ...The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."

Alexander Hamilton (1757-1804) Source: the Federalist Papers at 184-8

 

 

 

"...but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and use of arms, who stand ready to defend their rights..."

Alexander Hamilton Federalist 29

 

 

 

"... of the liberty of conscience in matters of religious faith, of speech and of the press; of the trial by jury of the vicinage in civil and criminal cases; of the benefit of the writ of habeas corpus; of the right to keep and bear arms.... If these rights are well defined, and secured against encroachment, it is impossible that government should ever degenerate into tyranny."

James Monroe (1758-1831), 5th US President

 

 

 

"The right of self-defense never ceases. It is among the most sacred, and alike necessary to nations and to individuals."

President James Monroe (November 16, 1818)

 

 

 

Portrait, George Washington

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."

George Washington This quotation may be false. It has never been cited with a source of any kind. Until it is proven to be false, I will continue to maintain it.

 

 

 

"A free people ought not only to be armed but disciplined; to which end a uniform and well digested plan is requisite: And their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories, as tend to render them independent on others, for essential, particularly for military supplies."

President George Washington January 8, 1790

 

 

 

"To be prepared for war, is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace."

George Washington

 

 

 

"To each of my Nephews, William Augustine Washington, George Lewis, George Steptoe Washington, Bushrod Washington, and Samuel Washington, I give one of my swords or Cutteaux of which I may be Possessed; and they are to choose in the order they are named. These Swords are accompanied with an injunction not to unsheathe them for the purpose of shedding blood, except it be for self defense, or in the defense of their Country and its rights; and in the latter case, to keep them unsheathed, and prefer falling with them in their hands, to the relinquishment thereof."

George Washington from his Last Will and Testament

 

 

 

"The hour is fast approaching, on which the Honor and Success of this army, and the safety of our bleeding Country depend. Remember officers and Soldiers, that you are Freemen, fighting for the blessings of Liberty that slavery will be your portion, and that of your posterity, if you do not acquit yourselves like men."

George Washington

 

 

 

"Altho' a large standing Army in time of Peace hath ever been considered dangerous to the liberties of a Country, yet a few Troops, under certain circumstances, are not only safe, but indispensably necessary. Fortunately for us our relative situation requires but few. The same circumstances which so effectually Retarded, and in the end conspired to defeat the attempts of Britain to subdue us, will now powerfully tend to render us secure. Our distance from the European States in a great degree frees us of apprehension, from their numerous regular forces and the Insults and dangers which are to be dreaded from their Ambition."

George Washington May 1, 1783

 

 

 

"...As there is not the least doubt at present, that the principle Object of the Enemy is to get Possession of the City of Philadelphia, it is absolutely necessary, that every Person able to bear Arms (except such as are Conscientiously scrupulous against it in every Case), should give their personal Service, and whenever a part of the Militia is required only, either to join the Army or find a Man in their place. In order to effect this, I beg you will order the whole Militia of your State to be enrolled and compleatly equipp'd; that one half at least may proceed to join the Army with all possible expedition..."

George Washington--to Pennsylvania Safety Council, January 19, 1777

 

 

 

 

 

George Mason (1725-1792) Statesman, Founding Father, Patriot and known as the "Father of the Bill of Rights"

 

 

 

"And we do each of us, for ourselves respectively, promise and engage to keep a good firelock in proper order, and to furnish ourselves as soon as possible with, and always keep by us, one pound of gunpowder, four pounds of lead, one dozen gunflints, and a pair of bullet moulds, with a cartouch box, or powder horn, and bag for balls."

George Mason's Fairfax County Militia Plan, 1775

 

 

 

"That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural and safe defense of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that, in all cases, the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power."

Virginia Declaration of Rights 13 (June 12, 1776), drafted by George Mason

 

 

 

"I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole body of the people except for a few public officials. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them..."

George Mason (1725-1792), drafted the Virginia Declaration of Rights, ally of James Madison and George Washington

 

 

 

"That the people have a Right to mass and to bear arms; that a well regulated militia composed of the Body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper natural and safe defense of a free State..."

George Mason (1725-1792), drafted the Virginia Declaration of Rights, ally of James Madison and George Washington

Source: Within Mason's declaration of "the essential and unalienable Rights of the People," -- drafted by Thomas Jefferson, George Mason and others, and later adopted by the Virginia ratification convention, 1788

 

 

 

"Government is, or ought to be, instituted for the common benefit and security of the people, nation or community; whenever any government shall be found inadequate or contrary to these purposes, a majority of the community hath an indubitable, unalienable, indefeasible right, to reform, alter, or abolish it, in such manner as shall be judged most conducive to the public Weal."

George Mason (1725-1792), drafted the Virginia Declaration of Rights, ally of James Madison and George Washington

 

 

 

"[W]hen the resolution of enslaving America was formed in Great Britain, the British Parliament was advised by an artful man, who was governor of Pennsylvania, to disarm the people; that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them; but that they should not do it openly, but weaken them, and

let them sink gradually, by totally disusing and neglecting the militia."

George Mason (1725-1792), drafted the Virginia Declaration of Rights, ally of James Madison and George Washington

Source: from debates during the Virginia state ratifying convention (June 14, 1788), quoted in Elliot’s Debates

 

 

 

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

 

 

 

"... as all history informs us, there has been in every State & Kingdom a constant kind of warfare between the governing & governed: the one striving to obtain more for its support, and the other to pay less. And this has alone occasioned great convulsions, actual civil wars, ending either in dethroning of the Princes, or enslaving of the people. Generally indeed the ruling power carries its point, the revenues of princes constantly increasing, and we see that they are never satisfied, but always in want of more. The more the people are discontented with the oppression of taxes; the greater need the prince has of money to distribute among his partisans and pay the troops that are to suppress all resistance, and enable him to plunder at pleasure. There is scarce a king in a hundred who would not, if he could, follow the example of Pharaoh, get first all the peoples money, then all their lands, and then make them and their children servants for ever ..."

Benjamin Franklin, before the Constitutional Convention, (June 2, 1787)

 

 

 

"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! - I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"

Patrick Henry (1736-1799)

 

 

 

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. When you give up that force, you are ruined."

Patrick Henry (1736-1799), Virginia's U.S. Constitution Ratification Convention

 

 

 

"Have we the means of resisting disciplined armies, when our only defense, the militia is put in the hands of Congress?"

Patrick Henry (1736-1799), 3 Elliot Debates 48.

 

 

 

"They tell us that we are weak—unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Three million people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us."

Patrick Henry (1736-1799), 1775

Webmaster's Note: It is interesting to note that the population in 1775, was approximately 2.9 million. In Patrick Henry's above quotation, he refers to ALL THE PEOPLE, and NOT just those meeting the qualifications of service in the Militia.

 

 

 

"The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun."

Patrick Henry

 

 

 

"O sir, we should have fine times, indeed, if, to punish tyrants, it were only sufficient to assemble the people! Your arms, wherewith you could defend yourselves, are gone... Did you ever read of any revolution in a nation... inflicted by those who had no power at all?"

Patrick Henry, Elliot p. 3:50-53, in Virginia Ratifying Convention

 

 

 

"Are we at least brought to such a humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our own defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in our possession and under our own direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?"

Patrick Henry, 3 Elliot Debates 168-169.

 

 

 

Noah Webster American Patriot (1758-1843) (Author of America's first dictionary)

 

"Another source of power in government is a military force. But this, to be efficient, must be superior to any force that exists among the people, or which they can command; for otherwise this force would be annihilated, on the first exercise of acts of oppression. Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive."

Noah Webster (1758-1843) American patriot and scholar, author of the 1806 edition of the dictionary that bears his name, the first dictionary of American English usage.

Defined the militia similarly as "the effective part of the people at large."

Source: An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, Philadelphia, 1787

 

 

 

Tench Coxe (Alexander Hamilton's Chief Assistant in the Treasury Department)

 

"As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms."

Tench Coxe (1755-1824), writing as "A Pennsylvanian," in "Remarks On The First Part Of The Amendments To The Federal Constitution," in the _Philadelphia Federal Gazette,_ June 18, 1789, p.2 col.1

 

 

 

"The power of the sword, say the minority of Pennsylvania, is in the hands of Congress. My friends and countrymen, it is not so, for the powers of the sword are in the hands of the yeomanry of America from 16 to 60. The militia of these free commonwealths, entitled and accustomed to their arms, when compared with any possible army, must be tremendous and irresistible. Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? It is feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom? Congress has no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American. The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people."

Tench Coxe (1755-1824), writing as "the Pennsylvanian" in the Philadelphia Federal Gazette, February 20, 1788

 

 

 

"Every free man has a right to the use of the press, so he has to the use of his arms."

Tench Coxe (1755-1824)

 

 

"The militia, who are in fact the effective part of the people at large, will render many troops quite unnecessary. They will form a powerful check upon the regular troops, and will generally be sufficient to over-awe them"

Tench Coxe (1755-1824), An American Citizen IV, October 21, 1787

 

 

Daniel Webster (1782-1852) (Secretary of State under three U.S. Presidents)

 

"God grants Liberty only to those who love it, and are always ready to guard and defend it."

Daniel Webster (1782-1852) in a speech on 3 June, 1834

 

 

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."

Daniel Webster (1782-1852)

 

 

 

Thomas Paine (1737-1809)

 

"We fight not to enslave, but to set a country free, and to make room upon the earth for honest men to live in."

Thomas Paine

 

 

"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand, arms like laws, discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside... Horrid mischief would ensue were one half the world deprived of the use of them..."

Thomas Paine (1737-1809)

Source: I Writings of Thomas Paine at 56, 1894

 

 

"...[A]rms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property...Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."

Thomas Paine (1737-1809), Thoughts On Defensive War, 1775

 

 

 

"The balance of power is the scale of peace. The same balance would be preserved were all the world not destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside ... Horrid mischief would ensue were one half the world deprived of the use of them ... the weak will become prey to the strong."

Thomas Paine (1737-1809)

 

 

 

"...if a thief breaks into my house, burns and destroys my property, and kills or threatens to kill me, or those that are in it, and to 'bind me in all cases whatsoever' to his absolute will, am I to suffer it?"

Thomas Paine (1737-1809)

 

 

 

"I am thus far a Quaker, that I would gladly argue with all the world to lay aside the use of arms and settle matters by negotiation, but unless the whole will, the matter ends, and I take up my musket and thank Heaven He has put it in my power."

Thomas Paine (1737-1809)

Source: Writings of Thomas Paine at 56 (M. Conway ed. 1894)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Massachusetts Representative Elbridge Gerry (1744-1814)

 

 

"Whenever governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins."

Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts Debate, U.S. House of Representatives, August 17, 1789; spoken during floor debate over the Second Amendment, I Annals of Congress at 750

 

 

 

"I ask what is the purpose of the militia? To offset the need of large standing armies, the bane of liberty."

Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts Debate, U.S. House of Representatives, August 17, 1789; spoken during floor debate over the Second Amendment, I Annals of Congress at 750

 

 

 

"Self defense is a primary law of nature, which no subsequent law of society can abolish; the immediate gift of the Creator, obliges everyone … to resist the first approaches of tyranny."

Elbridge Gerry (1744-1814) 5th Vice President under Madison, Massachusetts Governor, U.S. House Rep and U.S. Senator. (Probably one of the most important men you've never heard of)

 

 

 

"Such are a well regulated militia, composed of the freeholders, citizen and husbandman, who take up arms to preserve their property, as individuals, and their rights as freemen."

"M.T. Cicero" 1788

 

 

 

"The right of self-defense is the first law of nature; in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and when the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction."

Blackstone's 1768 "Commentaries on the Laws of England"

 

 

 

"And, lastly, to vindicate these rights, when actually violated and attacked, the subjects of England are entitled, in the first place, to the regular administration and free course of justice in the courts of law; next to the right of petitioning the king and parliament for redress of grievances; and, lastly, to the right of having and using arms for self preservation and defense."

Sir William Blackstone (1723-1780)

Source: Commentaries on the Laws of England (Clarendon Press: Oxford, 17th edition, 1966, Vol. 1., Chap.1).

 

 

 

"The congress of the United States possesses no power to regulate, or interfere with the domestic concerns, or police of any state: it belongs not to them to establish any rules respecting the rights of property; nor will the constitution permit any prohibition of arms to the people."

Saint George Tucker (1752-1827) Lawyer, Judge and Professor On Blackstone's Commentaries (1803), Volume 1, Appendix, Note D

 

 

 

"This [second Amendment] may be considered as the true palladium of liberty.... The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction. In England, the people have been disarmed, generally, under the specious pretext of preserving the game: a never failing lure to bring over the landed aristocracy to support any measure, under that mask, though calculated for very different purposes. True it is, their bill of rights seems at first view to counteract this policy: but the right of bearing arms is confined to protestants, and the words suitable to their condition and degree, have been interpreted to authorise the prohibition of keeping a gun or other engine for the destruction of game, to any farmer, or inferior tradesman, or other person not qualified to kill game. So that not one man in five hundred can keep a gun in his house without being subject to a penalty."

Saint George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries (1803), Volume 1, Appendix, Note D [section 12: Restraints on Powers of Congress.]

 

 

 

"The right of a citizen to keep and bear arms has justly been considered the palladium of the liberties of the republic, since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers, and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them."

Joseph Story (1779-1845) U.S. Supreme Court Justice 1811-1845. His Dad was one of the Sons of Liberty who took part in the Boston Tea Party and fought at Lexington & Concord in 1775. The above quote was from 1833

 

 

 

"No man can well doubt the propriety of placing a president of the United States under the most solemn obligations to preserve, protect, and defend the constitution."

Joseph Story (1779-1845) U.S. Supreme Court Justice 1811-1845. His Dad was one of the Sons of Liberty who took part in the Boston Tea Party and fought at Lexington & Concord

 

 

 

"The importance of this article [the Second Amendment] will scarcely be doubted by any persons, who have duly reflected upon the subject. The militia is the natural defence of a free country against sudden foreign invasions, domestic insurrections, and domestic usurpations of power by rulers."

Joseph Story (1779-1845) U.S. Supreme Court Justice, appointed by James Madison in 1811

 

 

 

"The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion."

Edmund Burke, Speech at country meeting of Buckinghamshire, 1784

 

 

 

"The true danger is when liberty is nibbled away, for expedience, and by parts."

Edmund Burke, letter, April 3, 1777, to the Sheriffs of Bristol

 

 

 

"When bad men combine, the good must associate else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."

Edmund Burke (1729-1797) - English statesman

 

 

 

"The danger (where there is any) from armed citizens, is only to the 'government', not to 'society'; and as long as they have nothing to revenge in the government (which they cannot have while it is in their own hands) there are many advantages in their being accustomed to the use of arms, and no possible disadvantage."

Joel Barlow, Advice to the Privileged Orders, 1792-93

 

James Otis (1725-1783)

 

"An act against the Constitution is void. An act against natural equity is void."

James Otis (1725-1783)

 

John Locke (1632-1704)

 

"A man with a sword in his hand demands my purse in the high-way, when perhaps I have not twelve pence in my pocket: this man I may lawfully kill."

John Locke (1632-1704) English philosopher and political theorist. Considered the ideological progenitor of the American Revolution and who, by far, was the most often non-biblical writer quoted by the Founding Fathers of the USA.

Source: "An Essay Concerning the True Original Extent and End of Civil Government", Chapter 18 "Of Tyranny", #207, originally published in England, 1690

 

 

 

"... whenever the Legislators endeavour to take away, and destroy the Property of the People, or to reduce them to Slavery under Arbitrary Power, they put themselves into a state of War with the People, who are thereupon absolved from any farther Obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence. ... [Power then] devolves to the People, who have a Right to resume their original Liberty, and, by the Establishment of a new Legislative (such as they shall think fit) provide for their own Safety and Security, which is the end for which they are in Society."

John Locke (1632-1704) English philosopher and political theorist. Considered the ideological progenitor of the American Revolution and who, by far, was the most often non-biblical writer quoted by the Founding Fathers of the USA.

Source: Second Treatise of Civil Government [1690], #222 (Lasslet Edition, Cambridge University Press, 1960), p. 460-461; French translation by David Mazel (1691): Traité de gouvernement civil (Paris: Garnier-Flammarion, 1984), pp. 348-349

 

 

 

"[The disarming of citizens] has a double effect, it palsies the hand and brutalizes the mind: a habitual disuse of physical forces totally destroys the moral [force]; and men lose at once the power of protecting themselves, and of discerning the cause of their oppression."

Joel Barlow (1754-1812) Politician and Poet, Advice to the Privileged Orders in the Several States of Europe: Resulting From the Necessity and Propriety of a General Revolution in the Principle of Government (London, 1792, 1795 and reprint 1956).

 

 

 

"The danger (where there is any) from armed citizens, is only to the government, not to the society; as long as they have nothing to revenge in the government (which they cannot have while it is in their own hands) there are many advantages in their being accustomed to the use of arms and no possible disadvantage."

Joel Barlow (1754-1812) Politician and Poet, Advice to the Privileged Orders in the Several States of Europe: Resulting From the Necessity and Propriety of a General Revolution in the Principle of Government (London, 1792, 1795 and reprint 1956).

 

 

 

"If I were an American, as I am an Englishman, while a foreign troop was landed in my country, I would never lay down my arms never, never, never! You cannot conquer America."

William Pitt, Speech, November 18, 1777

 

 

 

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of Human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."

William Pitt - British House of Commons during the Revolutionary War and sympathetic to Colonial America, November 18, 1783

 

 

 

"The rights of conscience, of bearing arms, of changing the government, are declared to be inherent in the people."

Fisher Ames (1758-1808), U.S. House Rep of Massachusetts Letter to F.R. Minoe, June 12, 1789

 

 

 

"All persons shall bear arms, and every male person shall have in continual readiness a good musket or other gun, fit for service."

Connecticut Gun Code of 1650

 

http://www.savetheguns.com/quotes.htm

 

Yeah your probably right the founding fathers didn't want guns in the hands of everyone. Elite or working class.

 

[choco]

Well Choke, you gotta admit these guys pack heat like it's just another necklace. I mean, I realize they are in the spotlight and all, but WTF do they need to constantly pack like gangsters for? It can't be that dangerous out there, especially when most of them can afford bodyguards.

 

Let's face it, whether for guns or not, these clowns are all about the bling of a piece. Just another accessory like a diamond stud. They be bad and shit.

I ain't gotta admit jack, doofus.....how much money you make in a year? These guys make that in a play or 2. Not only that, their contracts are public knowledge. You think its about bling.....you're Retarded. Don't you have some moderating to do turncoat?

[Thaak]

Two things

 

1 Driving is a privilige...Second Amendment is a right

2 If in fact you think both are alike then why not allow ccl holders to carry in liquor establishments?

 

One thing.

 

1. Rights are privileges until you do something to abuse them. Then the privilege or right can and will be taken away.

[Skinny]

what about unalienable rights says that it only applies some of the time. and rights and privileges are not the same thing.

[Thaak]

what about unalienable rights says that it only applies some of the time. and rights and privileges are not the same thing.

 

Its Inalienable. And I didn't say that it applies "some of the time." I also did not say that rights and privileges are the same.

 

I said that it is a privilege to have rights. If I abuse the privilege of the right, the right can be taken away.

 

This is true on more than one right.

 

If I shoot someone illegally with a gun, do you think I should be allowed to still own one?

 

If I commit a felony, should I still be allowed to vote?

[MudratDetector]

with great freedoms comes great responsibilities. this applies equally to speech, gun ownership, etc. i'm not an nra hack but i believe in gun ownership especially since i aspire to live in a rural area where police response times are non-existant. however, allowing people to own and use guns who have proven to be irresponsible with such a great freedom only serves to compound, not alleviate, societal problems.