NPR fires Juan Williams - for saying stuff non-liberal

[calfoxwc]

but NPR hypocrites never fire anybody for saying really offensive things about others and other groups.....

 

it's time to stop all federal funding of NPR.

 

NPR is just another bought and paid for liberal media group.

[Paxton]

PC = No Freedom of Speech

[Westside Steve]

I can't imagine a vigorous defense of NPR on this one.

Anybody?

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

Not really.

 

I can certainly see their point. I just don't think it makes much sense to fire a guy for saying that. Is it bigoted? Sure. But on a scale of bigotry,it doesn't rank very high on the scale, and he's acknowledging a feeling a lot of people have. As long as he also acknowledges that his feelings are illogical and wrong, which he did somewhat, I don't see what the problem is. Plus, he's a commentator. We shouldn't be creating an environment where every journalist who does commentary has to walk on egg shells when deciding what they can and can't say.

 

However, what seems to be clear is that is that they've wanted to fire Williams for a while and this was the last straw. He'd already been reprimanded for his commentary, and NPR had already told him to stop identifying himself as a NPR commentator when he goes on Fox to do commentary.

 

But it's certainly not a fireable offense to me.

 

But it's also not a 1st Amendment issue. He was free to say what he said, and did. And NPR is free to disassociate itself from what he said if they think it runs afoul of their standards and practices. It certainly didn't take too long for the demagogues to come out, did it?

 

[Mr. T]

Only Heck would lay claim to his comments as being racial. And Heck thinks its okay to reprimand and fire someone for not going along with his progressive parties thinking.

 

Juan Williams is a man among men and I'll stand up for him.

 

NPR is nothing more than a racist hate baiting political hack machine.

[heckofajobbrownie]

Sub in "Jew" or "black" for what he said about Muslims and you might get a better idea of why it's not exactly kosher.

 

"Look, Bill, I'm not a bigot. You know the kind of books I've written about the civil rights movement in this country. But when I get on the plane, I got to tell you, if I see people who are in yarmulkes, dressed in Jewish garb, and I think, you know, they are identifying themselves first and foremost as Jews, I get worried. I get nervous."

 

Well, maybe not you, but...

[Westside Steve]

Sub in "Jew" or "black" for what he said about Muslims and you might get a better idea of why it's not exactly kosher.

 

"Look, Bill, I'm not a bigot. You know the kind of books I've written about the civil rights movement in this country. But when I get on the plane, I got to tell you, if I see people who are in yarmulkes, dressed in Jewish garb, and I think, you know, they are identifying themselves first and foremost as Jews, I get worried. I get nervous."

 

Well, maybe not you, but...

 

 

I remember Cosby sayng (honestly) if he were alone and there were a number of young Black men in "modern" attire he'd be nervous.

How about you Heck?

Or if you were a Black man alone in Bensonhurst among some bald white guys with tattoos?

 

Whaddy think Heck?

WSS

 

[heckofajobbrownie]

Didn't we have this conversation? In the 8th grade? Really, we're going to have the Cosby conversation that every conservative in history has already brought up to me because they think it's so damn dispositive? Jeez. Come on.

 

It's not the point. His role on NPR is as a journalist. Journalists have standards of conduct. If you're going to say you see all people in Muslim garb and think "terrorist", you should at least have to correct yourself later, or qualify it.

 

Again, I don't think it was a fireable offense, but it's not without fault either. He acknowledging something that lots of people fear, but it's just that - a fear.

 

But if you want to know, I fly a good deal, and people in Muslim garb don't freak me out. The idea of terrorists taking down my plane freaks me out on occasion.

 

If I'm in a bad neighborhood and someone is walking behind me, I'd be nervous.

[Westside Steve]

Didn't we have this conversation in the 8th grade?

 

 

I don't remember.

 

 

That'd be 2008 for you right?

 

But even I'm surprised (well a little) you're carrying NPRs water on this one.

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

I don't remember.

 

 

That'd be 2008 for you right?

 

But even I'm surprised (well a little) you're carrying NPRs water on this one.

WSS

 

I know my answers aren't as black and white as you need them to be. Sorry.

 

I don't agree with it at all. And I can also see why Williams' continued associations with Fox News would cause problems for actual journalists.

 

[Westside Steve]

I know my answers aren't as black and white as you need them to be. Sorry.

 

I don't agree with it at all. And I can also see why Williams' continued associations with Fox News would cause problems for actual journalists.

Not black and white ; R and D.

By "actual" you mean left.

So you'd prefer reasonable liberals not be recognized at all on Fox?

WSS

 

[heckofajobbrownie]

Steve, don't go back to your old saw.

 

He's a journalist. He identifies himself with NPR. Journalists aren't supposed to have opinions. They're supposed to do facts and analysis. So you're not supposed to basically say, as he did, that when I go to the airport and see people dressed as Muslims getting on my flight I get scared. You're supposed to say, "Many people who go to the airport report feeling anxious when they see..."

 

Because it affects your ability to be dispassionate, and to do your job. How does Juan Williams write a straight story about Muslims, or comment on Muslims, once he's told everyone that the mere sight of one in an airport makes him afraid? That's the idea.

 

It's not supposed to be about what you think. If you want it to be about what you think, you're an opinion journalist, or a pundit.

 

NPR did not hire Juan Williams to do opinion journalism. So it now wants to be out of the Juan Williams opinion business.

 

I can certainly see the logic in that. You can't bitch about the decline of journalism/rise of mindless punditry on one hand, and also completely not get what the rules of journalism are on the other.

 

If you don't like them blurred, well, here's an example of a news organization cutting someone who blurred that line.

 

That all said, in my opinion, it's something you bring someone into the office for, or you get them to write a correction/apology. It's not a fireable offense. Is it a bit too PC for my tastes? Yes, it is.

 

Though, of course, NPR is saying it's the cumulation of offenses, and not simply this incident.

[heckofajobbrownie]

As for liberals on Fox, I'm of the opinion that they should be putting good people on those shows all the time, even though they're probably not going to get a fair shake. You've got to play away games, too.

 

But Fox also doesn't want people like that on very often. They want Juan Williams and Alan Colmes and Pat Cadell.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

The liberals hold on the Nation is rapidly deteriorating. Hope you enjoyed your very short stay.

[Westside Steve]

As for liberals on Fox, I'm of the opinion that they should be putting good people on those shows all the time, even though they're probably not going to get a fair shake. You've got to play away games, too.

 

But Fox also doesn't want people like that on very often. They want Juan Williams and Alan Colmes and Pat Cadell.

 

 

Well my beef with Fox is that the hosts who have these guys on tend to shout over them.

 

If I tune in for a guest I want to hear what he has to say.

Oh I have no gripe if somebody calls a Barney Frank out for bullshitting but I wanna hear Frank's side.

 

That's why I think Hannity's an idiot pretty much no matter who he's talking to.

Still your guys have elected Jon Stewart to a position of political respect and he's as bad, though a little more witty.

 

Nobody's been fair (IMO) since Russert.

WSS

[Westside Steve]

Steve, don't go back to your old saw.

 

He's a journalist. He identifies himself with NPR. Journalists aren't supposed to have opinions. They're supposed to do facts and analysis.

 

 

Actually I think he was called an "analyst" for whatever it means.

 

I'm wondering in what alternate universe do "journalists" behave in your idealized fashion.

 

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

Actually I think he was called an "analyst" for whatever it means.

 

I'm wondering in what alternate universe do "journalists" behave in your idealized fashion.

 

WSS

 

Journalist = here are the facts. Analyst = here's what I think the facts mean. Commentator/pundit = here's what I think.

 

 

[calfoxwc]

The *bigotry* was all on NPR.

 

they didn't like that Williams showed up on Fox. They hated that.

 

They didn't like that he didn't always conform to the left-approved talking points.

 

He has a mind of his own. Land sakes, the left HATES that.

 

It's like the attempts to get some conservatives on this board banned.

 

It's the power of belonging - in this case, it's an extreme leftwing propaganda "Lord of the Flies".

 

Those kids had to go with the group, or they were outcast and hated.

 

Just like Juan Williams. It's the tyranny of the hateful left.

 

Heck goes with his group, always.

 

Kinda ... very ... boring.

[calfoxwc]

The left, as several of us have seen on this board, and with NPR, and the View,,,,

 

is extremely intolerant of free speech they don't agree with.

 

It's the tyranny of the left. And it is in full speed ahead mode, with the #1

 

arrogant intolerant president of our U.S. being the leader, the instigator, and the resident

 

hater of the left.

 

And it's some unions, like the SEIU,.... and....

 

http://blogs.ktla.com/news_custom_eric/201...bama-rally.html

[Westside Steve]

Journalist = here are the facts. Analyst = here's what I think the facts mean. Commentator/pundit = here's what I think.

 

So two and three are opinion based. Can you cite me an opinion not based on or in reference to fact here?

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

You mean in Juan Williams' quote? Sure. The whole part where he says 'when I see people in Muslim garb in airports I get scared.'

 

I know where this is headed. Now you tell me Muslims do most of the hijacking, etc. I get it. But that's not what analysis is. This is purely his personal opinion. Which is fine. If Fox News wants Juan Williams' opinion, they can pay him for it, and do.

 

NPR has decided they don't want Juan Williams' personal opinions, or for one of their employees to declare that Muslims make him scared when they dress all Muslim. They want his news analysis.

[calfoxwc]

Heck, get real for once?

 

How many other OPINIONS have occured on NPR in the past, and it was fine by NPR?

 

Do you want me to post some of them?

 

It is glaring hypocrisy by NPR. Opinions are fine, unless the top people at NPR disagree with them.

 

It's time to immediately stop all funding of NPR.

[calfoxwc]

Heck -

 

NPR doesn't want CONSERVATIVE, or OBJECTIVE OPINION.

 

They want "news analysis" Oh, really?

 

They fired Juan Williams because NPR only wants "news analysis" ? ROF,LMAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

FACT: Williams simply explained his feelings honestly. It wasn't even on NPR, either.

 

But it's okay with you that NPR spoke of wanting Jesse Helms or one of his grandchildren getting aids?

 

 

That OPINION okay with you and NPR, Heck?

How about comparing Bush and Cheney to Hitler?

 

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2007/1...ush_hitler.html

 

That OPINION okay with you and NPR, Heck?

 

JUAN is the only person who should be fired for "opinionating", right Heck?

 

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.p...oryId=120344047

 

http://www.npr.org/blogs/ombudsman/2010/01...tea_part_1.html

 

Heck - it is my opinion that you just got your ass kicked again. Try being just a LITTLE honest

 

when you "discuss" things from now?

 

 

[heckofajobbrownie]

Oh brother.

 

Cal, out of all of these clips, only one is relevant. Someone saying something you don't like while on NPR is not relevant. These are all people who aren't employed by NPR. Naomi Wolf isn't a NPR employee. Plenty of people are brought on NPR, from left and right, to offer their opinions on things. They're not all NPR employees. It's not analogous.

 

However, Nina Totenberg is an NPR employee, and that comment should have gotten her either reprimanded or fired.

 

So congratulations - you've found an example or a double standard. From 1995.

 

And I don't think Williams should have been fired.

[Alo]

I used to get scared when an Israeli Arab got on the same bus as me. I wonder if that would be perceived as somehow being different than Juan Williams' comments.

[Westside Steve]

I used to get scared when an Israeli Arab got on the same bus as me. I wonder if that would be perceived as somehow being different than Juan Williams' comments.

 

 

What would be the big difference?

WSS

[Westside Steve]

Now you tell me Muslims do most of the hijacking, etc. I get it.

 

 

Well, good.

 

WSS

[calfoxwc]

Not true, Heck.

 

NPR has allowed these other comments, and yes, the head of NPR should have been fired.

 

That was my point. She wasn't. You're saying that it's okay to say opinions on NPR until just recently,

 

when Juan said what he said on FOX NEWS?

 

You aren't making any sense blindly supporting your membership in the left.

 

Heck, the DEMS have a MAJORITY. They could easily have extended the Bush tax cuts.

 

You foolishly want to continue to say "well, the Dems want those Bush tax cuts extended" ??? LOL

 

Come on.

[Westside Steve]

A few actual questions.

Was Williams contract clear in that he was forbidden to give opinion anywhere else?

 

It seems to me that NPR ocasionally sends guests to CSPAN do they not?

Has there ever been a conflict with that couple hours of debate with the callers?

 

If discussing the Wall Street near collaps or the Bush tax cuts or the deficit would it be just as outrageous for an NPR employee to say he or she was concerned about the eeconomy?

Or their 401K?

 

Of Cals list of bigoted commentary on NPR should those not actually employed by NPR (as Heck points out) be reprimanded by their respective employers?

 

At least we all agree Williams was let go primarily because he stepped off the reservation, correct?

 

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

The Nina Totenberg comment they've dug up is a perfect example of what we're talking about. You can't be employed as a journalist at NPR and say that kind of thing without reprimand. That's her opinion, and it clearly compromises her ability to cover the news objectively, and therefore it calls NPRs ability to cover the news objectively.

 

Juan Williams did the same thing. The degrees may be different, and I may not care personally - I never judged NPR by what Juan Williams said anyway - but it's the same idea.

 

I have some familiarity with this stuff because of my job. There are people who go on TV shows - whether it's CSPAN, Meet the Press, Stewart, or Rachael Ray - who are free to say whatever they like. However, journalists - and I'm talking about serious journalists, whose employers would care - are not supposed to represent their personal opinions on the air in their capacity as journalists.

 

So NPR journalists can go on any show they like. CNN reporters can go on any show they like. ABC, CBS, whoever. They're not supposed to act like everyone else is allowed to act. If you want to know their personal opinions, you can ask them after the show when they're not representing their employers as journalists.

 

As for your example, Steve, that's not a controversial enough of a statement to become an issue. But they're not supposed to, no. They're not supposed to frame things as something they feel personally. But I'm sure it happens and no one cares. These aren't the type of statements that you make these rules for.

 

I think people have a hard time accepting this idea because actual journalism is becoming so rare. It's all punditry now. We're living in the age of the superstar reporter, or the journalist/blogger. Guys like John Burns at the New York Times, or Dana Priest at the Post, have become the exception.

 

By the way, NPR, for all the shit its getting now, is clearly one of the best news outlets we have, especially when it comes to international news. And people who liken it to the left's version of Fox, or an outlet that does liberal advocacy, have no clue what they're talking about.