Wouldn't Gruden be an upgrade?

[steel88]

Yes, but at times, you HAVE to pull the plug on a project when it seems long and behold, there's no substantial improvement.

 

Think business: an employee enters the position promising to make strides in an effort to boost revenue/gain clients etc. After year 1, the boss looks over the evaluation report and realizes that person A has not done all too well with the options ang resources at his disposal. Does he fire him? He could, but he chooses not to and gives person A the benefit of the doubt in hopes that the last quarter's sales were a sign of the future. 2nd fiscal year comes around and he realizes that despite the chance, no significant improvement has been made and the momentum riding from the year before has become stale. What do you do now? Let him ride the door to mediocrity or bring in another reliable employee who has the experience and ingenuity to turn it around?

 

I'm not saying we do it for sure ATM, but if the Browns end up with a top 5 pick this year, it's pretty obvious that Mangini needs a change of scenery.

No, thats not obvious at all, all it means is that the team was not good enough. I'm sure the Steelers are glad they did'nt take that route with Chuck Noll in his second season of coaching them 5-9 .357 win percentage

 

What you need to look for is if the team is staying competitive and not quitting if the team quits on the coach then you get rid of him.

[steel88]

The fact of the matter is that this team is on the verge of being very good. The next draft will finally infuse the team with real talent, and we will be a force to be reckoned with on both sides of the ball. Starting over on either side is not the way to go.

 

If you have been paying attention you would see that Daboll has called good games the last few weeks. I mean Come on it doesn't get any more difficult then @ the steelers with a rookie QB starting his very first game.

[44CalExpress]

No, thats not obvious at all, all it means is that the team was not good enough. I'm sure the Steelers are glad they did'nt take that route with Chuck Noll in his second season of coaching them 5-9 .357 win percentage

 

What you need to look for is if the team is staying competitive and not quitting if the team quits on the coach then you get rid of him.

 

Well this is clearly one of those things you can't argue. So let's just agree to disagree.

 

I just think there are much viable options at HC than Mangini, who, never had a good track record with the Jets to begin with. If fans of every team he has been on dont like him, then something is going on.

[steel88]

Well this is clearly one of those things you can't argue. So let's just agree to disagree.

 

I just think there are much viable options at HC than Mangini, who, never had a good track record with the Jets to begin with. If fans of every team he has been on dont like him, then something is going on.

 

Mangini had a fine track record in new york, its the media that villainized him so much. It didnt help either that he was the main whistle blower on ESPN's favorite coach and team. There was a reason so many players spoke up for him.

[steel88]

[44CalExpress]

Mangini had a fine track record in new york, its the media that villainized him so much. It didnt help either that he was the main whistle blower on ESPN's favorite coach and team. There was a reason so many players spoke up for him.

 

This is where the top is blown off.

 

Living in New York for the past 5 years for school, I can assuredly tell you that Mangini did not perform as well you think. His ceiling in New York was above average at best, but his basements were an 8-3 start collapse. I understand you like him, but cmon, the excuses for Mangini are ridiculous.

 

Gruden is a superior coach, it doesn't make sense to defend a guy many have deemed 'sketchy' in the lightest sense of the word.

[steel88]

Funny stuff. Dungy's Team? I think you meant Rich McKay's team. He afterall was the GM who acquired the talent, built the roster and brought in the coaching staffs, not Tony Dungy. He was also the one who sent the Bucs into cap HELL while trading away premier pics for Gruden. It's kind of hard for any HC to right a sinking ship without 1st or 2nd round picks for three years. Interesting enough however, by year #3 they returned to winning before losing during an injury plagued season. It is what it is, but it isn't really fair to put all of the issues apon Grudens shoulders for issues that existed before he even arrived. There was a reason the Bucs HAD TO trade for a head coach. NOBODY wanted the job! Ask Parcells, he was offered ALOT of money but said no thank you after seeing where that team was headed.

 

Funny thing about the other guy, I keep hearing about how Dungy somehow built that team, their defense and was the mastermind behind it all. Assuming the fans stating this are correct then he's also largely responsible for their collapse. Also interesting is for being such an architect during his entire tenure in Indy he was unable to ever build a defense worth a shit, plus ironically inherited the offense he had there, but noone ever mentions any of that.

 

Anyways Gruden is a good coach, i'd love to have him here. Going further back he took over a garbage Raiders team that was 4-12, had them 8-8 within a season and in the AFC Championships by year three. Interesting still, by year four he had the Raiders in the Superbowl had the referees not decided to call an obvious fumble an "incomplete pass" handing the game to a team that was recently caught cheating in OTHER ways. Anyways here's a gentlemen who had a horrible team rebuilt and a bogus call away from the Superbowl who then takes over another team, wins the Superbowl with them(against his former team no less), then has to rebuild them yet by year #3 has them back into the playoffs three out of four seasons.

 

I'm NOT getting my hopes up but yeah, i'd be pretty happy if it happens. An experienced, PROVEN head coach with big game success? Especially with a top 3 in the NFL GM who comes from the same system as that Gruden runs? Sign me up! I'm down for that. I don't hate Mangini, he's really good at building a base for someone else to build on and I think he has that base somewhat built. I get the not wanting to play musical coach and what not but i'm fairly certain Gruden would be our last head coach for awhile.

 

This is also the best timing we'll likely find to transition over. The Oline isn't bad, the DB's aren't bad, we have somewhat of a running game all of which are universal. Mangini or no Mangini we still need a Free Safety. Mangini or not we still need an ILB/another ILB. The D.L. needs rebuilt either way. Still need at least 1 more CB. Still need upgrades at WR, the QB situation is still a question mark ect. They all need new personnel one way or another no matter if we keep the current coach or replace him.

 

Someone recently mentioned switching back to the 4-3 and it being an issue. How so? Rodgers is an absolute beast in the 4-3, Fujita is a solid WLB, Gocong is a really good SLB leaving MLB, which we need either way. Even staying with the 3-4 we need defensive ends. Rubin and Mitchell can play in the 4-3. Need a FS either way as well. Point being we already have players who can play either and have needs at the same positions either way. It's clear we're not going to win this season so if the decision is made this upcoming offseason is the time to do it.

It would be an issue. Rogers is no longer the player he was. Fujita was let go by saints for a reason, and then there is the learning curve of switching D's which all the players will have to go through. It is just a bad Idea plain and simple to change.

 

And gruden did win with Dungy's team Rich Mckay drafted for Dungy and Gruden the pieces to the puzzle were already there. The GM always drafts for the coach not for himself it causes major problems, Which we saw with Romeo and Phil.

[steel88]

This is where the top is blown off.

 

Living in New York for the past 5 years for school, I can assuredly tell you that Mangini did not perform as well you think. His ceiling in New York was above average at best, but his basements were an 8-3 start collapse. I understand you like him, but cmon, the excuses for Mangini are ridiculous.

 

Gruden is a superior coach, it doesn't make sense to defend a guy many have deemed 'sketchy' in the lightest sense of the word.

 

Thats just it you were in New york if Mangini went 10-6, 4-12 and 9-7( it wouldve been a lot better if Favres arm hadn't fallen off) Mangini would still be coaching there. Like i said the media there HATES him, and apparently for a lot of the people that live/lived there the irrational hate is contagious.

 

And when you say "many deemed sketchy" you mean the media correct? gotcha.

and winning with someone elses team does not make you superior it makes you Rex ryan.

[44CalExpress]

Thats just it you were in New york if Mangini went 10-6, 4-12 and 9-7( it wouldve been a lot better if Favres arm hadn't fallen off) Mangini would still be coaching there. Like i said the media there HATES him, and apparently for a lot of the people that live/lived there the irrational hate is contagious.

 

And when you say "many deemed sketchy" you mean the media correct? gotcha.

and winning with someone elses team does not make you superior it makes you Rex ryan.

 

It's funny how you antagonize the NY media for villainizing Mangini.

 

The media doesn't 'hate' him. I listen to just about every sports show in Manhattan and i'd say it's about 50/50. But thats neither here nor there, we're not talking about Mangini in NY, we're talking about Mangini in Cleveland. you continually bring up coaches of the past and other situations that happen, but the fact of the matter is, this team is underperforming. Do you honestly believe that Mangini is what's best for this team? If so, then there's no point in debating this forward.

 

It's not all too hard to understand.

[steel88]

It's funny how you antagonize the NY media for villainizing Mangini.

 

The media doesn't 'hate' him. I listen to just about every sports show in Manhattan and i'd say it's about 50/50. But thats neither here nor there, we're not talking about Mangini in NY, we're talking about Mangini in Cleveland. you continually bring up coaches of the past and other situations that happen, but the fact of the matter is, this team is underperforming. Do you honestly believe that Mangini is what's best for this team? If so, then there's no point in debating this forward.

 

It's not all too hard to understand.

 

 

And it is very apparent you don't know how bad the media is up there I have family in jersey(about 15 mins away from NYC) and its a night and day comparison to the media out here, but you just admitted its the media who deem him sketchy not the players or anyone else that matters so that point is moot

 

Underperfoming? that my friend is not a fact it is an opinion. We've already had this discussion not even the great coaches could do a thing with this team, and they didn't with theirs in there first 2-3 seasons.

 

Do you honestly believe he's as bad as the media says he is and Holmgren didn't know what he was doing when he retained him to allow his system more time to develop?

 

Dude this is a message board. Conversation with varying view points is what happens here if you can't handle an argument then what are you here for?

[44CalExpress]

And it is very apparent you don't know how bad the media is up there I have family in jersey(about 15 mins away from NYC) and its a night and day comparison to the media out here, but you just admitted its the media who deem him sketchy not the players or anyone else that matters so that point is moot

 

Underperfoming? that my friend is not a fact it is an opinion. We've already had this discussion not even the great coaches could do a thing with this team, and they didn't with theirs in there first 2-3 seasons.

 

Do you honestly believe he's as bad as the media says he is and Holmgren didn't know what he was doing when he retained him to allow his system more time to develop?

 

Dude this is a message board. Conversation with varying view points is what happens here if you can't handle an argument then what are you here for?

 

Irony: you heavily predicating fact from opinion, than going on to say it's "apparent" I don't know my own media when that is an opinion in and out of itself. I'm a journalism student, these media pundits often lecture around my institution, so yes, I know the media pretty damn well.

 

Big difference between living in Manhattan (me) and having FAMILY (not you) living in New Jersey. Fact of the matter is, it isn't New York. And living among these media monsters you so claim, I clearly know more about the in and outs of my own city than someone who doesn't even live here, and for all I know, in this state. I'm not inept of my environment as you choose to believe. It's 50/50, not 100% 'Mangini hate'.

 

Plain and simple, if you continually fail your job (which is to win), you get need to get fired. It happened to great coaches, and it's going to continue to happen. Your love for Mangini isn't going to distill this notion.

 

And message boards are for discussion. Yes, they leave room for arguements and debates, but when the same points are continually brought up and trivial facts are risen, it does not warrant a response. Hence, 'message board' where one so aptly chooses to answer. It has nothing to do with one's ability to, lol 'handle it'. Beating a dead horse only leaves one dumber than they came in.

[44CalExpress]

And just to add, Holmgren didn't necessarily keep Mangini because he thought he was what was best for this franchise, he kept him because he gave him the benefit of the doubt. That doubt is peeking up again, my friend.

[steel88]

And just to add, Holmgren didn't necessarily keep Mangini because he thought he was what was best for this franchise, he kept him because he gave him the benefit of the doubt. That doubt is peeking up again, my friend.

Has Holmgren said anything? No he hasn't. Like I've said before the only people that are talking about him getting fired are misinformed fans and well..... that's it the media really isn't talking about because there aren't any rumblings of it happening, and if there were you can bet we would be hearing about it like We've been hearing about with Singletary and Del Rio.

 

Those great coaches weren't fired after the first 2 seasons for a reason. Because its a terrible way to go about running a football team it always takes 3 seasons for anything positive to happen.

[44CalExpress]

Has Holmgren said anything? No he hasn't. Like I've said before the only people that are talking about him getting fired are misinformed fans and well..... that's it the media really isn't talking about because there aren't any rumblings of it happening, and if there were you can bet we would be hearing about it like We've been hearing about with Singletary and Del Rio.

 

Those great coaches weren't fired after the first 2 seasons for a reason. Because its a terrible way to go about running a football team it always takes 3 seasons for anything positive to happen.

 

There's no staple as to how long a coach needs to stay. Zorn left after 2 years, for example. And it's not a terrible way to go about running a football team as long the reasoning justifiable.

[steel88]

Who on this team would start for anyone else? I can count maybe 4-5 players

 

Cribbs

thomas

Mack

hillis

steinbach

 

under performing you cant be serious.

[steel88]

There's no staple as to how long a coach needs to stay. Zorn left after 2 years, for example. And it's not a terrible way to go about running a football team as long the reasoning justifiable.

Zorn had nothing nadda zip zilch zero he lost the locker room, and that is the mortal sin as a coach.

[44CalExpress]

This is going nowhere. I don't want to have to argue football semantics on a case-by-case basis. Big waste of time.

 

I believe Mangini isn't the man for the Browns. You disagree. That's that.

 

Good night.

[steel88]

I'm glad you're quitting because I don't stop lol

 

but you're blind if you don't see the facts

 

1. this team has shown improvement

2. they are still playing together as a team

3. They don't quit even when they're getting blown out

4. Holmgren kept him when he had every reason to fire him.

5. There hasn't even been any rumors that he's on the hot seat.

 

Now if we completely bomb the rest of the season, sure its a possibility, but he's not going to be gotten rid of just because a coach becomes available.

 

A coaching change does nothing to solve the lack of talent on both sides of the ball and actually helps perpetuate the lack of identity that has plagued the Browns since their rebirth in 1999. It is fair to criticize Eric Mangini for the teams 1-5 start, but considering the mess he inherited upon arriving in Cleveland, there is no question the team is headed in the right direction. We have a proven winner in Holmgren to oversee team operations.

 

We have a general manager in Tom Heckert to build the roster, brought in from a Philadelphia Eagles organization that mastered the art of maintaining talent in the salary cap era.

 

We also have, in Eric Mangini, a coach who inherited a toxic mess left behind from the previous regime and did the right thing in choosing character, discipline and team over talent and ego. There is no question that Cleveland is better off without the likes of Braylon Edwards and Kellen Winslow on the roster, but there is no doubting their talent. The fact is the decisions that had to be made require patience and a long-term approach in a city with a fan base desperate for a winner.

 

There is a reason that nobody wanted the head coaching job in Cleveland following the 2008 season. Our dreams of hiring Bill Cowher to magically turn the Browns into winners was replaced by the reality that no great coach was going to risk his legacy in a situation that called for a long-term approach in an atmosphere so desperate for immediate gratification.

[steel88]

Irony: you heavily predicating fact from opinion, than going on to say it's "apparent" I don't know my own media when that is an opinion in and out of itself. I'm a journalism student, these media pundits often lecture around my institution, so yes, I know the media pretty damn well.

 

Big difference between living in Manhattan (me) and having FAMILY (not you) living in New Jersey. Fact of the matter is, it isn't New York. And living among these media monsters you so claim, I clearly know more about the in and outs of my own city than someone who doesn't even live here, and for all I know, in this state. I'm not inept of my environment as you choose to believe. It's 50/50, not 100% 'Mangini hate'.

 

Plain and simple, if you continually fail your job (which is to win), you get need to get fired. It happened to great coaches, and it's going to continue to happen. Your love for Mangini isn't going to distill this notion.

 

And message boards are for discussion. Yes, they leave room for arguements and debates, but when the same points are continually brought up and trivial facts are risen, it does not warrant a response. Hence, 'message board' where one so aptly chooses to answer. It has nothing to do with one's ability to, lol 'handle it'. Beating a dead horse only leaves one dumber than they came in.

Well that explains a ton. its a lot like how these steeler fans are trying to defend the actions of there players. They are so wrapped up in it emotionally that they can't actually see whats going on. They are blind to the truth so to speak.

 

You live in new york. You dislike Eric Mangini despite having any real reason for it. The game of football is ultimately wins and losses yes, but there is so much more that goes into it. It would be like reading just the synopsis of a book and a good amount of the time you cannot do that.

 

I hope to have many more arguments with you about this team. Its good to have a foil.

 

good night.

[choco]

I was listening till this idiot mentioned gruden as a better coach. He hopped on the dungy train and rode it to a sb.....then took control of that train and ran it into the ground....the qb carousel that rivals ours.

 

 

You could have said john fox and you wouldn't get laughed at.....I work in NY as well, and your media is a xxxxing joke...yes, that includes you.

 

Gruden.....lmao.

 

[Unsympathetic]

1) If Mangini is the problem, Gruden is not the solution. Gruden is actually toxic to whatever team he coaches - the players do not like him, the clubhouse is not better because of him, and wins happen in spite of him. This is why he won only one SB with the stacked Bucs roster. Convincing yourself that Gruden is a "better" coach is cognitive dissonance akin to that exhibited by Holocaust deniers and 9/11 Truth-ers.

 

2) Show me proof Gruden is willing to take the Cleveland job. All I've seen is proof that he won't. It's very entertaining to speculate.. but you conveniently choose to avoid considering that Gruden will turn down any amount of money for the job.

[Earl34]

It's funny how you antagonize the NY media for villainizing Mangini.

 

The media doesn't 'hate' him. I listen to just about every sports show in Manhattan and i'd say it's about 50/50. But thats neither here nor there, we're not talking about Mangini in NY, we're talking about Mangini in Cleveland. you continually bring up coaches of the past and other situations that happen, but the fact of the matter is, this team is underperforming. Do you honestly believe that Mangini is what's best for this team? If so, then there's no point in debating this forward.

 

It's not all too hard to understand.

 

Really? Adam Schein who works in NY and has a NY TV Show (Loudmouths) and is on NFL Radio (with a large listening audience) said on the Thursday preceding Eric Mangini's first game in Cleveland last year: "I hate Eric Mangini and Eric Mangini hates me.". He's picked against the Browns ever since (which is his prerogative) but he has also refused to listen to any caller wanting to point out any successes. He is a biased journalist who, aside from the above quote, is NOT willing to disclose his biases when he ranks on the Browns or Eric Mangini. As a matter of fact, Joe Benigno and Schein were bitching about Mangini as the coach when he was 8-3 in 2008 so I don't want to hear that the NY media is unbiased. They ran Willie Randolph and Joe Torre out of town when they wanted to and it's the same with every coach except Coughlin who happened into a massive win-streak when they were stirring the pot against him.

[44CalExpress]

Really? Adam Schein who works in NY and has a NY TV Show (Loudmouths) and is on NFL Radio (with a large listening audience) said on the Thursday preceding Eric Mangini's first game in Cleveland last year: "I hate Eric Mangini and Eric Mangini hates me.". He's picked against the Browns ever since (which is his prerogative) but he has also refused to listen to any caller wanting to point out any successes. He is a biased journalist who, aside from the above quote, is NOT willing to disclose his biases when he ranks on the Browns or Eric Mangini. As a matter of fact, Joe Benigno and Schein were bitching about Mangini as the coach when he was 8-3 in 2008 so I don't want to hear that the NY media is unbiased. They ran Willie Randolph and Joe Torre out of town when they wanted to and it's the same with every coach except Coughlin who happened into a massive win-streak when they were stirring the pot against him.

 

I agree, he's a biased journalist, never been a fan. Everythings a mere soundbyte to him and I question his ability to report anything with credibility. Too vindictive for my taste.

 

However, I'm sure you understand he doesn't represent the NY media.

[44CalExpress]

1) If Mangini is the problem, Gruden is not the solution. Gruden is actually toxic to whatever team he coaches - the players do not like him, the clubhouse is not better because of him, and wins happen in spite of him. This is why he won only one SB with the stacked Bucs roster. Convincing yourself that Gruden is a "better" coach is cognitive dissonance akin to that exhibited by Holocaust deniers and 9/11 Truth-ers.

 

2) Show me proof Gruden is willing to take the Cleveland job. All I've seen is proof that he won't. It's very entertaining to speculate.. but you conveniently choose to avoid considering that Gruden will turn down any amount of money for the job.

 

Are you directing these questions to me or the OP?

 

1. LOL @ the last sentence. Hyperbole-much? He's not a 'cancer', otherwise many owners wouldn't want him to lead their franchise. 'Conveniently' choose? I never thought i had to go into this because it's neither here nor there, but Gruden didn't just inherit a superbowl team. I hope you're kidding. He was great for the Bucs, but had a hard picking the right QB. Moreover, he was great with the raiders.

 

2. I'm sure this is ALL speculation on everyone's part. Mangini is STILL the head coach and for now, i'm fine with that. Where is this 'proof' you have? And yes, it's entertaining to speculate, but at the end of the day, it's really all a matter of heresay rather than empirical evidence.

[1 more season]

1) If Mangini is the problem, Gruden is not the solution. Gruden is actually toxic to whatever team he coaches - the players do not like him, the clubhouse is not better because of him, and wins happen in spite of him. This is why he won only one SB with the stacked Bucs roster. Convincing yourself that Gruden is a "better" coach is cognitive dissonance akin to that exhibited by Holocaust deniers and 9/11 Truth-ers.

 

2) Show me proof Gruden is willing to take the Cleveland job. All I've seen is proof that he won't. It's very entertaining to speculate.. but you conveniently choose to avoid considering that Gruden will turn down any amount of money for the job.

 

 

What about what Gruden built with the Raiders? He did what Dungey couldn't do with that McKay built Bucs team. Dungey is SO overrated the Colts won the SB because of Manning not Dungey. Peyton's ferocious competitiveness overrode Dungeys take a dive mentality.

[44CalExpress]

I was listening till this idiot mentioned gruden as a better coach. He hopped on the dungy train and rode it to a sb.....then took control of that train and ran it into the ground....the qb carousel that rivals ours.

 

 

You could have said john fox and you wouldn't get laughed at.....I work in NY as well, and your media is a xxxxing joke...yes, that includes you.

 

Gruden.....lmao.

 

"lmao", this doesn't even warrant a proper response.

 

Please post with maturity next time. Insulting anonymously is rather cowardice. I'm up for a debate, but calling people 'idiots' and 'a joke' without any real reasoning is waste of a post.

[44CalExpress]

Well that explains a ton. its a lot like how these steeler fans are trying to defend the actions of there players. They are so wrapped up in it emotionally that they can't actually see whats going on. They are blind to the truth so to speak.

 

You live in new york. You dislike Eric Mangini despite having any real reason for it. The game of football is ultimately wins and losses yes, but there is so much more that goes into it. It would be like reading just the synopsis of a book and a good amount of the time you cannot do that.

 

I hope to have many more arguments with you about this team. Its good to have a foil.

 

good night.

 

Are you calling me 'blind'? Like I said, I no personal bias against Mangini, I just don't believe he's the right coach.

 

Answer this, IF this team goes 4-12, then what do we do Mangini, 'O fearless leader? If we don't agree with you, are we blind? Will we be discrepantly alluded to Steeler fans?

 

C'mon man, you're smarter than that. This Steeler fan comparison was just a lame cop-out to try and get a rise. You seem like a 'last word' kind of guy.

[44CalExpress]

The team hasn't progressed the way YOU would like. I suspect you measure progress solely by wins. I've seen lots of progress on the team and within the organization. There's a general feeling of stability and order that I like and hope to see continue. I don't think we need to throw anyone out just yet, especially not Mangini.

 

I apologize, I completey missed this post. And i've seen progress too. One would be naive to say this team is the exact same.

 

And I never said we throw Mangini out this year. I'm simply asking, do we keep Mangini if this team goes 4-12? Or do we continue to ride this train of mediocre satisfaction?

 

I'm not a pessimist by any stretch of the word, nor am I a "Mangini hater" like many have quickly pointed out. However, I am saying if this team goes through another disappointing top 5-6 pick season, a coaching change should be taken into serious consideration.

 

 

 

 

[1 more season]

Somewhere in this thread someone sad that getting a new coach does'nt neccassarily mean a step back. I agree Gruden is a perfect example of that.

 

3-4 wins at best is all mangini is going to get this year. For those of you looking for that participation trophy at the end of the year that should be plenty . Crazy, how some fans think wins is how you jusde a season. Those guys are nuts.

 

Anyway since I spent all day yesterday at football games and the weather is beautiful here (Carolina blue sky) I could sit inside watch the Browns lose again and read online arguments all day and be miserable this evening me a and the boy are going to ride our dirtbikes. When in doubt gas it!

 

Good luck all. See you later.

 

Go Brown's!

[next2nothing]