Holmgren's Biggest Mistake

[Frenchie]

He tosses out 3 QB's and brings in three others. He stacks the RB position, solidifies the O-Line and the D-secondary through the draft and FA. But he leaves the WR position to largely young, untested talent. Who needed Owens more, Cinci or the Browns? There was other talent available in FA. I'm surprised he let the team go into the season so weak at that position. And for those that say you can't do it all in one season, I say why not? Look at KC this year? And there was plenty of time to sign a #1 WR. Could have been a season changer as far as I'm concerned. Your opinion?

[choco]

Can't do everything in one year

[Canton Mike]

Can't do everything in one year

 

.....and we ARE a much improved team. Holmgren et al are the experts & they have made great progress. I prefer to look at what HAS been done....what hasn't been done will be taken care of.

Mike

[OrangeHelmet-UK]

He tosses out 3 QB's and brings in three others. He stacks the RB position, solidifies the O-Line and the D-secondary through the draft and FA. But he leaves the WR position to largely young, untested talent. Who needed Owens more, Cinci or the Browns? There was other talent available in FA. I'm surprised he let the team go into the season so weak at that position. And for those that say you can't do it all in one season, I say why not? Look at KC this year? And there was plenty of time to sign a #1 WR. Could have been a season changer as far as I'm concerned. Your opinion?

Totally agree . a quality WR could have meant at least another 3 victories this season...................ah well

[ClevelandBigDawg]

Chiefs also had a lot of their team in place.

 

Glenn Dorsey was hurt

Tambi Hali

Brandan Albert

Brandon Flowers

Jamaal Charles

Matt Cassell

Dwayne Bowe

Derrick Johnson

Brandon Carr

Tyson Jackson

Mike Vrabel

 

Not real sure who they added all in FA other than Thomas Jones, and their rookies are playing extremely well right now

 

Dexter McCluster

Eric Berry

Tony Moeaki

Javier Arenas

Verran Tucker even had a big receiving day

 

They had a very solid nucleus in place, and had been injury-ridden last year I dont think they added an extremely lot through FA, they just had a very solid draft and the players that worked out were at positions of need.

[7moses7]

He tosses out 3 QB's and brings in three others. He stacks the RB position, solidifies the O-Line and the D-secondary through the draft and FA. But he leaves the WR position to largely young, untested talent. Who needed Owens more, Cinci or the Browns? There was other talent available in FA. I'm surprised he let the team go into the season so weak at that position. And for those that say you can't do it all in one season, I say why not? Look at KC this year? And there was plenty of time to sign a #1 WR. Could have been a season changer as far as I'm concerned. Your opinion?

[He stacks the RB position?] What happens if Hillis gets injured?

[WRREBEL]

No one agree more than me..

 

 

Regarless of what anyone says, it was a mistake...

[shepwrite]

I think it's really tough to argue we couldn't or shouldn't have done more at the WR position. I think Taylor Price would've been a really nice third round pick and would've had way more opportunities here than in New England. Shipley would've been great.

[choco]

Shoulda woulda coulda.....

 

We have youth at wr that hasn't panned out....u don't expect them to regress. Its quite easy to sit behind your screen and make these claims halfway thru the season, but we all....including the fo....expected more from our wr corps.

 

I'm just amused that despite how far we've come in year 2 of a rebuild....its still not enough for most people. Would wins be nice? Absolutely.....but I'm thoroughly enjoying being competitive even if we lose. Ye who never makes a mistake can cast the first stone to call out this team.....cause ur so unrealistic in ur expectations that you set yourself up for disappointment

[Frenchie]

[He stacks the RB position?] What happens if Hillis gets injured?

 

Now, yes, I would agree with you. With the injury to MH and the trade of JH and release of two other RB's. But at the time we acquired Hillis, we were wondering why another RB.

[Gips]

Im just glad we are somewhat competitive again, we have huge holes in player talent and in certain aspects of the coaching as well, but i trust the FO will fix everything in due time, geez holmgren and heckert havent even been around a year yet!

Give it a little time and be glad that some things are already in place to make next year better!

[Frenchie]

I think it's really tough to argue we couldn't or shouldn't have done more at the WR position. I think Taylor Price would've been a really nice third round pick and would've had way more opportunities here than in New England. Shipley would've been great.

 

This is exactly what I'm saying. It's not about Owens. It's the fact that the Browns did nothing to address this improtant and woeful area of need. Yes, we've made great strides vs prior year, but come on, everyone on this board was correct in describing our WR as being college-level at best and there were plenty of opportunities to solidify this in FA.

 

I don't know what Holmgren was thinking. You can't have glaring weaknesses on an NFL team and expect to win. You will always have some positions of strength and some could use an upgrade / better coaching, but the inability of our WR's has lead to sacks, incomplete passes, interceptions the stacking of the oppenent's D in the box ... the list goes on.

 

It's the same with every position. Good NFL teams are primed to exploit the other teams area of weaknesses. Going into the season without a proven and reliable WR was a strategic brain-fart. I could understand only one FA signing. But none? And then we complain about the coaches?

[shepwrite]

Shoulda woulda coulda.....

 

We have youth at wr that hasn't panned out....u don't expect them to regress. Its quite easy to sit behind your screen and make these claims halfway thru the season, but we all....including the fo....expected more from our wr corps.

 

I'm just amused that despite how far we've come in year 2 of a rebuild....its still not enough for most people. Would wins be nice? Absolutely.....but I'm thoroughly enjoying being competitive even if we lose. Ye who never makes a mistake can cast the first stone to call out this team.....cause ur so unrealistic in ur expectations that you set yourself up for disappointment

 

We're fans, not zombies. We talk about the good and the bad and owe apologies to nobody. We've certainly covered the scores (McCoy, Hillis, the TEs)... no sense in acting like we're 3-7 because we do everything perfectly.

 

Nobody thought we were good at WR, including every draft guru on earth. We were regularly ranked 32nd at the position by ESPN and the like. I expected us to sign a free agent and then draft Shipley, Sanders, or Price.

[DawgTracker]

He tosses out 3 QB's and brings in three others. He stacks the RB position, solidifies the O-Line and the D-secondary through the draft and FA. But he leaves the WR position to largely young, untested talent. Who needed Owens more, Cinci or the Browns? There was other talent available in FA. I'm surprised he let the team go into the season so weak at that position. And for those that say you can't do it all in one season, I say why not? Look at KC this year? And there was plenty of time to sign a #1 WR. Could have been a season changer as far as I'm concerned. Your opinion?

 

TO is a great talent but I also believe he is a team killer. He certainly hasn't helped the bengals win more games.

 

[Frenchie]

Shoulda woulda coulda.....

 

We have youth at wr that hasn't panned out....u don't expect them to regress. Its quite easy to sit behind your screen and make these claims halfway thru the season, but we all....including the fo....expected more from our wr corps.

 

I'm just amused that despite how far we've come in year 2 of a rebuild....its still not enough for most people. Would wins be nice? Absolutely.....but I'm thoroughly enjoying being competitive even if we lose. Ye who never makes a mistake can cast the first stone to call out this team.....cause ur so unrealistic in ur expectations that you set yourself up for disappointment

 

Well, I can see we're not going to agree. Look, I'm enjoying our newly competitive team as much as anyone else. Colt has been a pleasant surprise (and I don't care what anyone says, that pick panning out was just luck - but you need to get lucky sometimes, especially when you look at how many times we've been unlucky). Hillis is perhaps our greatest trade in recent history and is a monster RB.

 

I've made plenty of mistakes in life, and if I'm playing arm-chair Czar and my "stoning" has offended anyone, then I apologize. You are right, it's so easy when you're behind a screen. Still, I think most people on this board were screaming for an improvement in WR before the season started and they were correct. Personally, I think the difference would have been exponential.

 

Enough said, GO BROWNS!

[Frenchie]

TO is a great talent but I also believe he is a team killer. He certainly hasn't helped the bengals win more games.

 

I respect your opinion. Like I said, it didn't have to be TO. Although, I did enjoy watching him play on Thursday night. Cinci has a lot of problems, and I don't understand what's happened to Palmer. Has he lost it? But I have not heard much of Owens being a team killer this year and he is an extreme talent. I mean an opposing team better cover him with more than one defender because a good QB will use Owens often and it will change the outcome of the game.

[MudratDetector]

WR was/is a need, but considering that the browns drafted 2 WRs in the 2nd rd in the 09 draft combined with the acquisition of ben watson this past offseason, i think that holmgren made the right decision to hold-off one more year. solidifying the defense has made us instantly competitive and has me the most excited about our future. tj ward might be DROY and nobody is talking about it because everyone would rather focus on our shortcomings.

[Frenchie]

WR was/is a need, but considering that the browns drafted 2 WRs in the 2nd rd in the 09 draft combined with the acquisition of ben watson this past offseason, i think that holmgren made the right decision to hold-off one more year. solidifying the defense has made us instantly competitive and has me the most excited about our future. tj ward might be DROY and nobody is talking about it because everyone would rather focus on our shortcomings.

 

 

There have been many threads on TJ on this board all except one (about a hit to the head) paid homage to his talent and play making ability. Great draft selection and what a fantastic addition to the team. I really think we do a great job on this board of balancing the good and the bad. I have discussed the improvement in our LB's time and time again. If there is a group not getting enough love, I would start there. Holmgren/Ekert have done a great job overall. It's for that reason that it baffles me as to why they did not address WR in free agency. It was an obvious and everyone knew it. It wasn't a draft need, it was a FA need and we had the money to pick up one solid WR in a group of about a dozen that were available. Mass was showing progress. But there was no indication that cribbs or Rob could fill the need.

[hoorta]

WR was/is a need, but considering that the browns drafted 2 WRs in the 2nd rd in the 09 draft combined with the acquisition of ben watson this past offseason, i think that holmgren made the right decision to hold-off one more year. solidifying the defense has made us instantly competitive and has me the most excited about our future. tj ward might be DROY and nobody is talking about it because everyone would rather focus on our shortcomings.

 

Yeah I agree about WR, can't fix everything in one year- and Holmgren said as much. Guys like Boldin and TO weren't going to come to Cleveland- they wanted to win, and win NOW.

 

And has been said, TO is a talent- so is Randy Moss for that matter- but look at their track record of being clubhouse cancer. We just got rid of a couple in Bray-Bray and KWII, so RIGHT ON!!! Let's bring in another one to take their place.

 

Oh, and I think there may be a guy by the name of Julio Jones sitting there in the first round when the Browns draft next year.

 

[WRREBEL]

Actualy boldin wanted to get paid. We showed no interest so I thinks its unfair to say he wouldnt have come here...

 

 

Who doesn't want to win now? The bottom line is always about showing me the money!

[Harry Buffalo]

Chiefs also had a lot of their team in place.

 

Glenn Dorsey was hurt

Tambi Hali

Brandan Albert

Brandon Flowers

Jamaal Charles

Matt Cassell

Dwayne Bowe

Derrick Johnson

Brandon Carr

Tyson Jackson

Mike Vrabel

 

Not real sure who they added all in FA other than Thomas Jones, and their rookies are playing extremely well right now

 

Dexter McCluster

Eric Berry

Tony Moeaki

Javier Arenas

Verran Tucker even had a big receiving day

 

They had a very solid nucleus in place, and had been injury-ridden last year I dont think they added an extremely lot through FA, they just had a very solid draft and the players that worked out were at positions of need.

 

Eric Berrrrrrrrry, Eric Berry! Eric Berrrrrrrrry, Eric Berry!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5us2KV8Le

 

sorry bit i'm still drunk from the osu vs michigan game.

[shepwrite]

On Berry, the talk in KC (where I used to live) is he makes a lot of plays... and blows a lot of coverage.

 

Here's the update on the Browns pick in Walter's Draft... which would make me really happy. And a good point on McCoy:

 

7. Cleveland Browns: A.J. Green, WR, Georgia

 

Colt McCoy is the real deal. He's also a perfect as example of why the NFL Draft is the ultimate crapshoot. No one liked McCoy - not Kiper, not McShay, not Mayock, not any draftnik surfing the Web. Not even Mike Holmgren was too high on him; he passed on him twice in Rounds 2-3, and finally picked him when he realized that Jake Delhomme and Seneca Wallace were his only quarterbacks.

 

But with McCoy entrenched as the franchise quarterback, the Browns need to provide him with a blue-chip weapon. A.J. Green, who could easily be picked in the top three depending on which teams are drafting up there, is the second-best receiver prospect since Randy Moss (Calvin Johnson).

 

Pick change; previously Marcell Dareus, DE/DT

[cribbs is the man]

like someone said earlier, you cant fix everything in one year. Signing a big vet with big money we are still a ways away from being a playoff team I dont think really helps our team at this point for the long term. It is our number one weakness for sure though, and one that will certaintly be addressed in the offseason.

 

Think of it like Colt is swinging his baseball bat in the on deck circle with a donut weighing it down. When we get a WR threat next year it will be that much easier for him to "swing the bat" (great metaphor, i know..)

[OrangeHelmet-UK]

Competative................thats the key word !...and thats what we are . Competative...... If your team is playing the Cleveland Browns this sunday.....your gonna get a game!!!!!

that is all Browns fans want to hear!

[Harry Buffalo]

On Berry, the talk in KC (where I used to live) is he makes a lot of plays... and blows a lot of coverage.

 

Here's the update on the Browns pick in Walter's Draft... which would make me really happy. And a good point on McCoy:

 

7. Cleveland Browns: A.J. Green, WR, Georgia

 

Colt McCoy is the real deal. He's also a perfect as example of why the NFL Draft is the ultimate crapshoot. No one liked McCoy - not Kiper, not McShay, not Mayock, not any draftnik surfing the Web. Not even Mike Holmgren was too high on him; he passed on him twice in Rounds 2-3, and finally picked him when he realized that Jake Delhomme and Seneca Wallace were his only quarterbacks.

 

But with McCoy entrenched as the franchise quarterback, the Browns need to provide him with a blue-chip weapon. A.J. Green, who could easily be picked in the top three depending on which teams are drafting up there, is the second-best receiver prospect since Randy Moss (Calvin Johnson).

 

Pick change; previously Marcell Dareus, DE/DT

 

holgrem wanted him plenty but heckert didnt. holgrem was actually made when colt hadnt been picked to that point.

[tampadawgs]

Did you ever think that they knew they were week at WR, but waited for this years loaded WR class.....

 

Heckett draft class in Philly is no joke

 

Jackson

Mcclain

Mccoy

Cobb

 

If we get somewhere close to this, I will be very happy

 

 

Please do not forget that our defense is playing way over there heads because of the sceames that Ryan puts together, fact our front 7 is old, no pass rush DE and if Ryan leaves for a HC job we are Fu$%ed....

 

 

 

[hoorta]

Actualy boldin wanted to get paid. We showed no interest so I thinks its unfair to say he wouldnt have come here...

 

 

Who doesn't want to win now? The bottom line is always about showing me the money!

 

This isn't all about "win now". It's about building the foundation to not only win, but win consistently for years to come. Da Bungles thought they could "win now" by bringing in TO- whoops, wrong. One good thing about this Bungle bungle- that's one team drafting ahead of us who won't be taking a wr.

[Canton Mike]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this in this thread, but has anyone thought that just MAYBE, given what all experts were saying about the Browns before the season, that the good free agent WRs wouldn't even CONSIDER coming here? They would have wanted to go to a WINNER, & we were certainly not on that track. Now, the Browns have recaptured a lot of respect around the league & a solid receiver or two just MIGHT consider the Browns. I honestly don't think we had a prayer of signing a top tier ANYTHING last off season, but we sure had a good draft & picked up enough solid players through trade & free agency that might open up the marketplace for us in the future to obtain top tier free agents.

The Browns DID NOT overpay for poor or washed up positional talent (as the past regimes had)...had Holmgren/Heckert/Mangini done that, THAT would have been the biggest mistake.

Mike

 

[Frenchie]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this in this thread, but has anyone thought that just MAYBE, given what all experts were saying about the Browns before the season, that the good free agent WRs wouldn't even CONSIDER coming here? They would have wanted to go to a WINNER, & we were certainly not on that track. Now, the Browns have recaptured a lot of respect around the league & a solid receiver or two just MIGHT consider the Browns. I honestly don't think we had a prayer of signing a top tier ANYTHING last off season, but we sure had a good draft & picked up enough solid players through trade & free agency that might open up the marketplace for us in the future to obtain top tier free agents.

The Browns DID NOT overpay for poor or washed up positional talent (as the past regimes had)...had Holmgren/Heckert/Mangini done that, THAT would have been the biggest mistake.

Mike

 

Maybe so. According to your theory then, this will be a great draft and FA year for us, and (if we are competitive now) we should be a playoff team next year. So, as they say, let's see. I don't expect to see any position of glaring weakness next year. So we need to address or continue to address WR, the D-Line, The D-secondary, and at least one young LB.

[Canton Mike]

Maybe so. According to your theory then, this will be a great draft and FA year for us, and (if we are competitive now) we should be a playoff team next year. So, as they say, let's see. I don't expect to see any position of glaring weakness next year. So we need to address or continue to address WR, the D-Line, The D-secondary, and at least one young LB.

 

I didn't predict that this next draft & free agency period would be "great". It's always a crap shoot. I believe that, due to our level of play & improvement, that we WILL be positioned somewhat better for free agency. My "theory" was simply that a star free agent is not usually eager to sign with a "cellar dweller" & as we improve, our opportunities to sign top tier free agents will increase.

Mike