Pinstripe Bowl: Making the Music City's Refs Look Competent

[dencyguy]

Okay, in the other thread I made my objections to the end of the Music City Bowl. Still, when compared to the way the Pinstripe Bowl ended, it was a model of great officiating.

 

In case you missed it, Kansas State was losing by eight to Syracuse in the closing moments of the game. Then they got a touchdown to draw them within two. Then this happened:

 

 

Here's what the K-State player said after the game:

 

>>"Soon as it happened, [the official] said, 'Wrong choice buddy,' and looked at me," Hilburn said. "And I ran off and I'm like, 'Uh, OK.' And then I see a flag, and I'm like, 'Oh really? For that?'"<<

 

On its own, the call it terrible. If that was what the ref actually said to the kid after throwing the flag, it's a disgrace. You can make a bad call, but do you have to be a prick about it? Is Ted Valentine working football games now?

 

And congratulations, fans and players--refs like this tool will be able to decide whether or not a touchdown counts next year.

 

Dennis

[BROWNandORANGE]

I watched the entire game, it was an excellent match-up, minus this dilemma. You have guys dance in the end zone for 25-30 seconds, and this guy simply salutes K-State fans and this is worthy of excessive celebration? C'mon with that, NCAA.

 

The ref was also a total dick to the player. After the salute, the ref walked behind the player and said "Wrong choice, buddy." I would understand if he did the point and ring (I will post a video of that below) because ole Tebow started that at LSU and is now recognized as an automatic excessive celebration, but a salute? Please.

 

For those who don't know here is the story of the point and ring. During the 2007 season, LSU fans somehow got a hold of Tim Tebow's phone number and were leaving him voicemails containing death threats, threatening his family, and things of that nature. After a touchdown in Death Valley, Tim roared back with this move, now recognized as an automatic excessive celebration penalty.

 

After about 30 minutes of looking, I cannot find a video and/or picture, sorry guys.

[dencyguy]

Here's why I'm skeptical of the way that excessive celebrations get called right now, and why I'm dead set against the new rule going into effect next year that allows referees to decide when the celebration started and take away touchdowns. Watch the clip above one more time.

 

Now watch this post-TD response by Tyler Bray:

 

 

Now watch Ahmad Black at the end of today's game against Penn State (at 4:30 of the clip):

 

 

Now, a pop quiz:

1--Of the three clips, which seems least like an example of the player calling attention to himself or celebrating excessively?

2--Of the three clips, which is the only one that actually ended with a flag?

3--Seriously, how big a tool is the "Wrong choice, buddy" guy?

 

This is why it's so idiotic to allow refs to take away scores next year--it's using a howitzer to kill a gnat because there are only a small handful of plays that are so egregious that they take away from the game (and which merit a 15-yard penalty on the kickoff, and guys can (and probably will) take away scores for much more minor issues. You want proof of why this is a stupid rule? The head of officiating said that the KSU play was called properly, and if asked, would almost certainly say the same about the non-calls on the plays above. Which means two things (either/or/both): first, that he's lying through his teeth to cover for his boys, and second, that it's a judgment call, so (shrug) whatever the ref calls or doesn't is right.

 

Dennis

 

[ballpeen]

I agree.

 

It better be something pretty flagrant if they are going to take a score away.

 

The K-State and Vol's clip wouldn't result in a score being taken away....it happened after the score.

 

The Black clip might just turn in to a example since he started pointing in to the stands on about the 15 yard line.

 

Refs might need some tight security if they start taking away scores that result in games being won or lost because of the call.

 

 

In Blacks case, he wasn't taunting anyone....he was simply excited and pointing at the gator nation who was going wild....I don't see anything wrong with that...and I am not saying that simply because it was my team.

 

A guy wants to do a back-flip in...that is one thing...a little highstepping or pointing....that's another.

[BROWNandORANGE]

he was simply excited and pointing at the gator nation who was going wild

 

It was INSANE. Did you go to the game? I made the trip over because I am down in Miami doing some work, so it was only about a 3 1/2 - 4 hour drive. It was unbelievable after Black had that pick 6 when the crowd was chanting "Urban Meyer." A truly great day for Gator Nation.

 

[ballpeen]

No, I was here at the house.

 

I was down in Fla over the Christmas weekend.

[BROWNandORANGE]

No, I was here at the house.

 

I was down in Fla over the Christmas weekend.

 

Lucky! I was in Chagrin Falls, OH for Christmas, I'm sure you're whether was a little better

 

But, my family has been telling me they have been getting into the 30s down there. I was only there for 3 days and it was beautiful the whole time.

[dencyguy]

Please note that I never said that the TDs in the KSU and Tennessee game would have been disallowed by penalties (which the KSU kid didn't deserve but got, but Bray did but didn't)--I said that the officials who made those inconsistent calls would have the right to take scores off the board based on their own judgments, which is wrong in my book.

 

Even on the Black play--do we really want to trust the refs to not only watch the play on the field, but also check the stands to make sure that there are Florida fans where he pointed? And does it have to be a section of (mostly) Florida fans to count as acknowledging them? 50/50? His parents?

 

Three more objections to the rule:

 

1. Player Intent--Any rule that allows the refs to decide what the player meant by a celebration is already in trouble. I want rules that address what actually happened on a play, not what happened plus what the referee figures the player was thinking at the time of what happened.

 

2. Individual referee's reactions--There's always going to be a degree of subjectivity in officiating, but as we saw in the KSU-Tennessee-Florida-insert any other NCAA game, one man's excessive celebration is another man's giddiness and acknowledging his team's fans (becaus that could clearly not happen after the play on the sidelines).

 

Two examples from this year's games come to mind on this one. The first happened at Tennessee (forget the opponent; maybe Alabama). The opponent runs a play, Tennessee makes a good defensive stop. About three seconds after the play, one of UT's defensive linemen takes his helmet off to adjust something on it (maybe one of the straps or something)--not sure exactly what happened, but the hints were that it was several seconds after the play, he was five yards away from the players celebrating the play, and he immediately started adjusting something on the helmet. This was right in front of the referee. No problem. It was about five yards away from the umpire. Again, no problem. It was about thirty yards from the side judge, who came running in and threw a flag because he clearly took his helmet off to call attention to himself. After about a five second huddle (which, one would hope, involved the referee using the phrase "Go screw yourself"), the flag was waved off.

 

A second example, from an ESPN game--I can't remember who was playing. The receiver caught the ball and was being pursued. When he got to the goal line, he dove in. He didn't do a backflip, he didn't dive in sideways, he dove at the goal line the way players do. Flag--excessive celebration, drawing attention to yourself, fifteen yards. Next year, the touchdown would have been disallowed. There were two defenders pursuing, both within five yards of him. Could they have caught him? No, but how was he supposed to know exactly where they were? Should he have turned around and run in backwards? That would have gotten a flag. Is the NCAA going to bring in extra officials to hold up signs when players need to/are allowed to dive for the pylon, or should the players go just assume that if they're inside the ten, defenders will stop and let them score?

 

3. Timing--Let's say that a player does do a flip as a he crosses the goal line. Are the officials going to go to the replay to determine whether or not the ball had crossed the goal line before he started the flip? If one takes a TD off the board and the other is a 15 yard penalty, forget "Well, he shouldn't have done it in the first place"--they'd better make sure to get it right.

 

It's a stupid rule aimed at fixing something that isn't that much of a problem that is already addressed by the rule. Ask Washington a few years ago how much 15 yards on an extra point matters. Ask Kansas State this year. Ask any coach who loses it on the sideline when his team has to kick off from the 15 after a touchdown. It's a bad rule aimed at addressing a non-existent epidemic of touchdown celebrations. If they want to address the issue, then start calling more penalties on players celebrating first downs, sacks, or slightly better-than-average plays.

 

Dennis