Can We Win With Holmgren Here?

[Browns57]

It is interesting reading all the posts defending Mangini and the posts attacking Mangini. It is always nice how we can all watch the same team and come up with so many different perspectives about our team. Whether we could have won with Mangini or not is beside the point now because he has been fired by Mike Holmgren. So now doesn't the question have to change to whether or not we can win with Mike Holmgren?

 

Sure Holmgren was a great coach when he was in Green Bay with a young Brett Favre. He was a slightly less effective coach when he was in Seattle with Matt Hasselback. Yes the same Matt Hasselback that looked like Tom Brady tonight versus the Saints. So I think we can all agree that he is an above average coach. I think we can agree on that, but I am sure somebody will disagree.

 

But Holmgren served as the vice president/general manager of the Seahawks from 1999-2002. This is the closest position he has held to the one that he holds now. Of course he was also the coach during this time. And holding two jobs is tough. Many of us are probably doing that at work every day in this economy. But during those four years Holmgren's teams finished 9-7, 6-10, 9-7, 7-9. They played in one wild card game and they lost the game! Three years after stepping down as vice president he got the team to the Super Bowl. I guess it was good that the powers in Seattle were patient with him and didn't fire him sooner. Luckily he had a longer and more impressive resume that bought him time. A longer resume then Mangini has had time to build most likely because the Jets were impatient with him. But you can all debate that later.

 

What I am trying to say is that now that Holmgren has fired Mangini and put himself into the spotlight we should use that light to see the faults that Holmgren has. Maybe Holmgren Doesn't have what it takes to be the president of the Cleveland Browns? Maybe he is simply a coach and nothing more. Parcells was a great coach, but not a great office man. How would Belichek do as President of the New England Patriots?

 

Well I guess we will find out and we will find out in 2011 if Holmgren can do his job. If the Browns lose again this year I hope Holmgren doesn't expect any additional time to put his plan into place. Mangini got two seasons with his limited coaching resume, so maybe two years is all Holmgren will get from his boss due to his limited and lackluster vice president/president resume?

[Hoss]

Two words: Tom Heckert

 

You guys keep making this out to be a 2 year deal because Mangini was bounced for some of the same reasons he was bounced from New York - handling of players in the offseason and during the season.

 

I will say it again: Tom Heckert

 

Both Holmgren and Heckert have done more than Mangini has, so I am pretty sure they get more time. Pretty sure Heckert will be very interested in who the coach is since he will most likely be here longer than Holmgren.

 

Man Browns fans are salty over a coach who didn't do much else but clean out the locker room of divas, and stock it with average/below average players who had no hope BUT to buy into his system. Where else were they going to play? I mean think about it, many of his depth guys are not really good position players or good back ups -- they're ST's players. No wonder we lacked depth.

 

I like Eric Mangini. He just didn't get it done with his methods.

 

One more time: Tom Heckert

[choco]

Both Holmgren and Heckert have done more than Mangini has, so I am pretty sure they get more time. Pretty sure Heckert will be very interested in who the coach is since he will most likely be here longer than Holmgren.

Wow.....2guys were better than one....that's some xxxxing genius there. U rich btw?

 

Criticism about building a roster from 53 up? It sure worked by building from the top down...right? Keep these gems coming.....ur insight is fantastic!

[slowburn]

In 17 years as a head coach MH has had only 3 losing seasons. He guided the Packers and Seahawks to the playoffs 12 times in those 17 years. He took his teams to the Super Bowl twice...winning one.

 

As QB coach and offensive coordinator for the 49's, the team won over 70% of their games. He picked up two Super Bowl rings with the niners. The man is a winnner.

[BrownIndian]

CAn we win with Holmgren as the coach ? With good talent we sure can !

[USFBrown]

Both Holmgren and Heckert have done more than Mangini has, so I am pretty sure they get more time. Pretty sure Heckert will be very interested in who the coach is since he will most likely be here longer than Holmgren.

 

 

I agree with as far as talent. Heckert, Holmgren, and co had a great draft this year. We haven't had a great draft like this since the Browns returned to the league.

 

But you have to give Mangini credit for working the talent (or lack thereof) to it's fullest this year. Yeah, he made some bad calls but what coach hasn't? I believe Mangini got the most of out this crew. We had an extremely difficult schedule and our guys were getting banged up.

 

I believe Mangini left us with some disciplined players that will receive the next coach well. He cleaned house and got some character guys.

[Harry Buffalo]

Also if we are going off of his decisions thus far. 1: He hired Heckert. Super Pass. 2: Drafted McCoy, brought in best backup in the nation Wallace, Pass, 3: Fired Mangini, who knows yet.

 

Unlike when Holmgren was at Seattle, he does very little when it comes to picking draft choices and picking up FA's. He brought Wallace, McCoy, and Delhomme here because he deals in QB's. They are way he knows best. But other than those 3 he had no final say on the draft choices, FA signings, or trades. It is mostly his job to bring in personnel, coaches and office people.

[longhorn]

I agree with as far as talent. Heckert, Holmgren, and co had a great draft this year. We haven't had a great draft like this since the Browns returned to the league.

 

But you have to give Mangini credit for working the talent (or lack thereof) to it's fullest this year. Yeah, he made some bad calls but what coach hasn't? I believe Mangini got the most of out this crew. We had an extremely difficult schedule and our guys were getting banged up.

 

I believe Mangini left us with some disciplined players that will receive the next coach well. He cleaned house and got some character guys.

 

 

Sorry man, but I absolutely disagree he got all that could be gotten out of the Browns this past season. We had 4-5 games we should have won. For a variety of reasons we didn't, but that is the coaches job to win most of the close ones. After the Jags game we were unsuccessful at running the rest of the year. This could have been addressed by changing things up in blocking schemes, play calling, etc. The Seahawks had a horible running game but they kept changing things up till they found a combination that worked. Also, many Browns players quit playing. This absolutely falls on the coaches to keep the players in line and ready/willing to play. I saw both our offensive and defensive lines just going through the motions on blocking assisgnments I saw receivers no even trying to get open. When a play went up the field I did not see the whole team try to keep the play going (ala last night's 4th quarter run by the Seahawks).

 

I will agree the team was more competitive than the year before, but in the end they quit.....culminating in an outright disgraceful effort for the last game. The Steelers have more talent but dammit, we were out-desired. The Browns players wanted this season over.

 

If all those players speaking up for Mangini now that he's gone would have stepped up their play IF IF IF IF they really loved the man, things might have been diferent. If they all respected Mangiini like they profess they would have fought harder that last game than they fought all year.

[Browns57]

Sorry man, but I absolutely disagree he got all that could be gotten out of the Browns this past season. We had 4-5 games we should have won. For a variety of reasons we didn't, but that is the coaches job to win most of the close ones. After the Jags game we were unsuccessful at running the rest of the year. This could have been addressed by changing things up in blocking schemes, play calling, etc. The Seahawks had a horible running game but they kept changing things up till they found a combination that worked. Also, many Browns players quit playing. This absolutely falls on the coaches to keep the players in line and ready/willing to play. I saw both our offensive and defensive lines just going through the motions on blocking assisgnments I saw receivers no even trying to get open. When a play went up the field I did not see the whole team try to keep the play going (ala last night's 4th quarter run by the Seahawks).

 

I will agree the team was more competitive than the year before, but in the end they quit.....culminating in an outright disgraceful effort for the last game. The Steelers have more talent but dammit, we were out-desired. The Browns players wanted this season over.

 

If all those players speaking up for Mangini now that he's gone would have stepped up their play IF IF IF IF they really loved the man, things might have been diferent. If they all respected Mangiini like they profess they would have fought harder that last game than they fought all year.

 

So the team played poorly against Pittsburgh agreed. Did they want the season over? Probably. But remember by this point it was almost decided that Mangini was done as coach. Holmgren wasn't saying anything positive and the media all over the country were all saying he would be fired Sunday night or Monday most likely. Would a win have made a difference? NO! People need to feel like what they are doing has some meaning! The fact that a loss or a win means the same thing did not help matters any.

 

Your running game theory is just funny. Hillis banged up after the most work he has seen over the course of a season, playing good run defenses in Pittsburgh and Baltimore. Cincinnati's line played well also. The line didn't quit!

 

And our receivers can't get open! And we all knew that before the season. But Holgren and Heckert being the geniuses that they are didn't address that. Instead they drafted a running back with a history of injuries. A running back with a history of knee injuries (really smart!) and traded away draft picks in order to do it.

 

But it was the coach who they fired who said I want Peyton Hillis that guy can play make sure we get him in the Brady Quinn deal. Well thank you Mangini. Or we would have most likely shipped out Quinn for just the draft pick and would have won 1-2 games this year. Jake Delhomme was pathetic (Holmgren). Now imagine the Browns with Delhomme th statue trying to throw to our shit receivers with no threat of a running game.

 

Thank you Mangini for winning 5 games. Wish it would have been 7. Maybe they would have kept you in Cleveland.

[Hoss]

Every Browns board out there wants to make Mangini out to be more than he was, while also placing Holmgren and Heckert on some mythical hot seat.

 

Look, the overwhelming majority of guys on this roster were brought in my ERIC MANGINI. All the back ups on this team? ST's players disguised as 2's and 3's. We have no depth at these positions because instead of signing good backups Eric kept loading the team with ST's players. And then you guys want to harp on how he got us going in the right direction because these guys bought into his system?

 

Of course they bought in - they have nowhere else to go and play because they are ST's players only. I have heard countless times about this team having no talent, that aside from Thomas and maybe Haden, no player here could make the rosters of the Ravens and Steelers. Well no shit, Mangini stocked it with ST's players.

 

If you didn't play ST's on this team you were not worth keeping, and that is what eroded the depth on this team. And Heckert was supposed to fix that in his first season?

 

You guys have Martyr Syndrome for Eric Mangini.

[Hoss]

Your running game theory is just funny. Hillis banged up after the most work he has seen over the course of a season, playing good run defenses in Pittsburgh and Baltimore. Cincinnati's line played well also. The line didn't quit!

 

And our receivers can't get open! And we all knew that before the season. But Holgren and Heckert being the geniuses that they are didn't address that. Instead they drafted a running back with a history of injuries. A running back with a history of knee injuries (really smart!) and traded away draft picks in order to do it.

 

But it was the coach who they fired who said I want Peyton Hillis that guy can play make sure we get him in the Brady Quinn deal. Well thank you Mangini.

That is because the OC isn't worth a damn and couldn't design plays to the WR's to save his ass. Holmgren thinks the WR's on this team were good enough to win with, and seeing as how we got Mangini player's like Fujita and Gocong and Brown on DEF, and Watson and Hillis and Delhomme/Wallace on offense, you think we should have went out an gotten even more players like a #1 WR for Daboll to ruin? Who the xxxx playing #1 WR wants to come in and play for Brian Daboll????

 

Seriously you guys have lost it.

[Browns57]

That is because the OC isn't worth a damn and couldn't design plays to the WR's to save his ass. Holmgren thinks the WR's on this team were good enough to win with, and seeing as how we got Mangini player's like Fujita and Gocong and Brown on DEF, and Watson and Hillis and Delhomme/Wallace on offense, you think we should have went out an gotten even more players like a #1 WR for Daboll to ruin? Who the xxxx playing #1 WR wants to come in and play for Brian Daboll????

 

Seriously you guys have lost it.

 

Delhomme and Wallace were Mangini guys? NO!

 

Holmgren was obviously wrong about the wide receivers.

 

Who cares if they want to play here out of college. You draft a good one anyway.

 

And as for free agent signings you get who you can get to come to a losing team. Those players can go to another team if they are good enough to have options, unlike players out of college.

[Hoss]

And as for free agent signings you get who you can get to come to a losing team.

And don't forget how hard it was getting players here to play for a Mangini coached team. And that goes for coaches as well. They were not lining up to come here --- well not until Heckert got these guys here.

[Hoss]

Holmgren was obviously wrong about the wide receivers.

We shall see. Let me guess, you wanted to change out Daboll as the OC, but you also think the players sucked. So the WR's don't have Daboll to blame for their lack of production, they just suck, yet Daboll needs to be replaced.

 

The WR's on this team are not as bad as the OC made them out to be.

[Harry Buffalo]

That crybaby cancer isn't anywhere near being the best backup in the nation.

 

I beg to differ. He is a career back up, not someone like Kolb who should be a starter else where. He can come in and be a decent starter when needed in case on injury and does his best work coming in during games when defenses haven't had a chance to game plan against him. And ya he said some stuff during the season about not being happy with having to back up Delhomme after Delhomme proved that he shouldn't be starting but I sure as shit don't blame him for that and I'm glad he didn't go into any huge blow up like we know half the other players in the league would have done. Shit Rodger tweeted after the 3rd week that the season was over and your upset because Wallace said he should be the starter?

[shepwrite]

In 17 years as a head coach MH has had only 3 losing seasons. He guided the Packers and Seahawks to the playoffs 12 times in those 17 years. He took his teams to the Super Bowl twice...winning one.

 

As QB coach and offensive coordinator for the 49's, the team won over 70% of their games. He picked up two Super Bowl rings with the niners. The man is a winnner.

 

Three Super Bowls... two with Pack, one with Seattle.

[Hoss]

But you have to give Mangini credit for working the talent (or lack thereof) to it's fullest this year. Yeah, he made some bad calls but what coach hasn't? I believe Mangini got the most of out this crew. We had an extremely difficult schedule and our guys were getting banged up.

 

I believe Mangini left us with some disciplined players that will receive the next coach well. He cleaned house and got some character guys.

I think Mangini did you a good job building the roster with character guys, but getting the most out of his players? Not so much. Our players kept making the same mistakes over the course of the season. I don't think I can honestly say that Mangini got the most out of his roster. I think they all may understand the game better, and have a better knowledge of how to prepare for the game and read film. But when it came to getting these guys individually to start playing above their heads - I didn't see it. Especially when the chips were down and they played JAX CIN and BUF.

 

Developing talent is not his strong suit, nor is developing young players, especially the QB. I think he makes these guys better professionals and they understand the X's and O's better, but not playing lights out above their heads.

 

Some think the talent level was so crap that it was a miracle he got them to 5-11. I don't think that was the case. I also think he had a real problem getting the best 45 to the game on Sunday. Harrison was inactive last season for a few games, then never saw the field until Lewis got hurt. What happened? Almost 700 yards and a Browns record for rushing in a game. He was SO BAD that he is now active every game for Philly. And Joe Haden? He didn't see the field until another veteran got hurt - E Wright. Now Joe Haden is up for ROY, and had better numbers than McCourty in NE, who started all 16 games. And WTF was Delhomme starting for over Wallace? He was pissed at Wallace for talking? Wallace played much better than Jake.

 

There are probably more than this, but is shows to me that maybe Eric wasn't bringing the best 45 to the game.

 

 

[ballpeen]

I liked Mangini....but I agree Hoss....we should have won a few more games, and the blowout at the end sealed the deal.

 

 

I also agree Haden should have been playing much sooner.

 

 

Mangini wasn't a bad guy, and not near the worst coach we ever had, but a lot of little things add up to one or two big things.

 

 

 

It is what it is, and now we move on.

 

I know the next coach will have it it better than Mangini did when he entered, so we have made positive strides.

 

 

With the schedule and some luck, the next coach could walk in to a high draft pick and a team who is going to destined to win 8-9 games next season.

[longhorn]

All these "we were injured" excuses. Maybe we need to hire Nurse Ratched as head coach. She also has experience in dealing with people who are unable to deal with reality.

[bringbackbrownie2]

All these "we were injured" excuses. Maybe we need to hire Nurse Ratched as head coach. She also has experience in dealing with people who are unable to deal with reality.

 

well with a rebuilding team, if you lose a few key players (cribbs, fujita, smith, moore) you don't have anyone that is even half way decent that can replace them. A great team has depth (even though some players still cannot be replaced such as pollymoomoo and bob sanders)which rebuilding teams do not... the injuries don't excuse everything but you have to take them into account.

[hoorta]

We shall see. Let me guess, you wanted to change out Daboll as the OC, but you also think the players sucked. So the WR's don't have Daboll to blame for their lack of production, they just suck, yet Daboll needs to be replaced.

 

The WR's on this team are not as bad as the OC made them out to be.

 

Well. I'll beg to differ, and say yes the Browns wide receivers suck. and you know why? When over the course of a season the leaders in receptions are your tight end and running back, I'd say your WRs blow, and can't get open. That's unless you want to believe Daboll was using Masaquoi and Robiski as decoys all year just to get Watson and Hillis open.