ballpeen Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 In the course of our discussions we talk about a player being good, or great, or poor. I always like to use those terms comparing a player at a position as compared to players at the same position league wide. For me, it puts a little balance in to my rating. I thought I would share my thoughts and hope to get a few of your thoughts. My hope is this thread can stay football related and be void of the nagging and name calling that seems to be sweeping this board as of late. Great or elite player. Clearly a player who could start of any of the 32 teams in the league. Joe Thomas would fit this mold. If another team had a player of equal value, both guys would be playing at a top level, no matter which one switched positions. Excellent player A player who could start for all but maybe 5 teams. Alex Mack would fit this mold. Clearly, another player who would find a spot in the line-up even if he had to change position. A guy too valuable to sit. NFL Good player A solid player who could find a starting job for all but maybe 10 or so teams in the league. Haden might be in this category, though he is on the cusp of the excellent category at this stage, so he can jump all the way to the top. NFL Average A player who can start for maybe 12 teams in the league. A decent player, but one who has to seek a team in order to find real playtime and one who's real value is mostly as a solid #1 back-up. A guy you can mostly count on, but you aren't going bet the ranch he gets it done week in and week out. We have a bunch of guys on the roster who fit this mold. NFL Below Average Clearly a player who is old, broken down, or simply the best of the rest(the not so good). He's only starting because a team has nothing else. His value as a back-up is even questioned. St. Claire would fit this mold. These players were never much more then back-up material at the peak of their career. That is how I view things when I talk about a player. It mostly relates to veteran players . Rookies and young players still have a chance to move up, but even then, minus the QB position who might show little early on only to blossom in to a big time player, other positions usually show their colors early enough you can't expect to see them jump 2-3 slots. It is usually a slot or two at most. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Mike Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 Good thoughts, but a question? Where do you put Hillis & Ward? I would be tempted to put them in NFL Good, but then there seems to be (by description) a big dropoff to NFL Average. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted January 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 Good thoughts, but a question? Where do you put Hillis & Ward? I would be tempted to put them in NFL Good, but then there seems to be (by description) a big dropoff to NFL Average. Mike I had originally listed Hillis where I mentioned Haden and was having the same problem as you...He probably is more in line with the excellent....as is Haden, even though I used him in the good....I did qualify that with him being on the cusp and my explanation at the end about young and rookie players. Nothing is set in stone here and my breakdowns may not work out mathematically, explaing some of the gaps in ratings. Backs may be one of the positions where there are a lot of really good players bunched up, making it hard to differentiate one guy from the next. Lets just say I am real happy with Hillis, be it good or excellent. He gets the job done. Ward...at least right now I would have to say average to maybe nearing good....but again, he is a rook who can make a move, byt right now I don't think he could start for many more than 10-12 teams in the league Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted January 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 Also, there is a gap between average and good because I feel that is where most players fall....so there is going to be some grey area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 this year you'd have to rate hillis as nfl good, at least. some might say excellent but i'd like to wait to see if he can do it again next year.........and the next. haden is definitely nfl good and on the cusp of being excellent, ward on the cusp of being good. just need to see more of him out there. other than that i couldn't name another player on defense as good other than fujita who might be nearing the proverbial closing of the door on his career (hope not). our receivers blow. maybe the rookie might be good but we'd never know not seeing him touch the grass last year. maybe the new system will turn things around for them but we definitely need an upgrade via draft. overall last years draft was one of the best we've had since getting reinstated. shoring up RT through draft or FA this year is a must and will solidify our line making it one of our strengths and taking off some of the sophmore pressure that will be coming mccoys way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nw220 Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 Hillis is great and if he has a repeat performace like last year i would consider him elite, also Haden is above average as far as i think he could start on just about every team except maybe 10....Ward by the next year when we get him some pass rush and he gets more experienced in coverage i think can also move into the great realm as well...Other than that maybe McCoy if he has a great year next year he good be great, thats right better than good great....Someone mention Watson i liked that Acquire we need to land even bigger names this year in F/A...Id also like to see more outta Evan Moore i think he has some unique talents for his size and speed and that catch he made agasnt Revis shows it...Thomas is Elite and i would say Mack is great on his way to becoming Elite,IMO he is better than Pouncey he just dosent have the same Personel around him to bring it to forefront yet,but with another strong year from Hillis he will be able to maybe jump up into that category.The only other Center i would take over him in the AFC is Nick Mangold and ive love'd him since his days at OSU And heres to adding more peices to the puzzles in next years draft and becoming playoff team GO BROWNS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterbell Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 This year Joe Thomas was good..not great or elite..sorry its true..the dirty little secret in the room Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClevelandFanForLife Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 i rate players the same way i rate all men. how hot their wive's are. for that reason, tom brady is the greatest human being to ever live. colt mccoy is up there too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 Ah, now your job peen is to place all the NFL free agents into one of your categories and then figure out how the Browns can get a hold of as many of the Elite and Excellent players as they can! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted January 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 Ah, now your job peen is to place all the NFL free agents into one of your categories and then figure out how the Browns can get a hold of as many of the Elite and Excellent players as they can! I can rate them easy enough. Figuring out how we get the good ones is another story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted January 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 Unfortunately, for Browns fans, the rating is done by who they play for Not sure I understand your comment? Are you trying to make a point? Like I said, i am not going to talk smack with you. Talk football or go pollute some other thread. Talk about your team. How many Steelers fall in to the elite area....the excellent area. I'll talk with you if you try to get serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffer X Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Good stuff Peens, I think the key is how many of a certain ranking of players a team has and the effect that ranking overall has on their success. For example, how many elite players does it take to make up for having less excellent or good players another team may have? Take Pitt for example, they struggle big time without Polly himself, let alone taking Roid Monk out of the equation or or even Woodley, Hampton or Simmons. Last year, they were hit big time just by losing Aaron Smith and at times, Polly. To make it short, I think you have to have 3 to 5 elite players to be a really good team, they make up for the gray areas between all the other groupings. However, a guy like St. Clair is an example of injuries hitting the wrong areas and creating a huge weakness on a team. The Browns losing Fujita this year (who BTW is a ton better than Jackson ever thought of being) caused Bowens to move outside where he is way less effective because of lack of speed, and at the same time moved Barton into the starting lineup inside. Huge voids caused by one major injury to a big time free agent who was playing at a Pro Bowl level. Keep in mind, DQJ was lost before the season even started. To put that in perspective, take Timmons out of Pitt's lineup before camp even starts, then have them losing Farrior midseason ala Fuje. Besides the QB carousel, the other big issue that killed the team was the right side of the oline. If St. Clair starts, you're in trouble. Lauvao was playing well in camp and looked like a great pick that could take over RG. Then, he missed a week for unknown reasons. My guess is he lost a parent, but either way it really set him back. When he did get back, he got the dreaded high ankle and was never right the rest of the year. We survived this quite well because we signed Pashos, who is an above average player when healthy at RT, and had Poke Chop at RG. Pashos went down for the year and in stepped Yates at RG with PC going to RT. This combo played great also, then Yates went down for the year. This moved PC to RG and St. Clair to RT, our death knell. PC also was hurt most of the year but played. In essence, the three best guys on the right side went down for the year by game 9, and Lauvao and Pashos in essence missed the entire season. Basically, those two spots on the roster killed the team because we had below average guys playing at key positions after having good guys there. It's almost the same principle but opposite of having elite players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Unfortunately, for Browns fans, the rating is done by who they play for I think what you are saying is that the Browns have done poorly in their drafts, and that whomever has been picking for the Browns has done a fairly poor job. Perhaps. But that is NOT what ballpeen is talking about here. He is talking about rating players on their actual performance, not on the projected performances of a draft pick. His proposal is sort of a fantasy draft proposal....who would you take on your team (fantasy? or real life) based on what they have accomplished as an NFL player. He is saying, e.g. that Joe Thomas is an elite player. A young, outstanding veteran that any NFL team would want. Apparently there is not much disagreement about that. I am saying: how can we add a bunch more Joe Thomas quality players? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bringbackbrownie2 Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Outstanding! My point was pretty clear and is self evident except to those won't see it. Browns fans, all too often, make their decisions about a players greatness, or lack thereof, based soley on who that player plays for. In other words, unable to see beyond the Cleveland Browns fans hatred of the rest of the football world, particularly the great teams of today,s era of football, to make sound decisions. Browns fans, all too often, refuse to pay attention to what the rest of the football world sees because it often sheds a negative light on the Cleveland Browns. Every announcer, or sports show host, who has ever uttered a negative comment about Cleveland or the Browns is automatically an idiot.....despite the level of truth in the comment! When the rest of the football world talks about the greatness of former and current Steeler players, Browns fans call them names and and say they are biased, there is some big ugly consiracy. When the rest of the football world fails to talks about the former and current Browns players, Browns fans say the football world is against them. When the rest of the football world talks about the greatness of former and current players of any successful team, Browns fans can't see it because, all too many, Browns fans have spent their entire life in a Browns vacuum. Hating everyone who has anything negative to say about Cleveland or the Browns (despite the reality that is plain to see)....hating every other team who is successful because the Browns aren't.......hating, with a passion, anything about Pittsburgh or the Steelers because Pittsburgh and the Steelers picked themselves up by the bootstraps and took themselves from the gutter to greatness and remain there! The Browns went from greatness to the gutter, and remain there, and, all too many, Browns fans simply can't accept this. So........................."Unfortunately, for Browns fans, the rating is done by who they play for" It's like having a discussion about the beauty of the mountains with a group of people who have never seen the mountains. you still haven't answered his question and therefore have added nothing to this thread. Your argument is not relevant to this thread, seeing as though the steelers weren't even mentioned until you jumped in... I agree with Hillis being NFL good. I also think Fujita is NFL good if not excellent but unfortunately we didn't get to see him play for 16 games. And don't forget about Vickers. He is clearly one of the best FB in the league. As for Ward and Haden, they have shown a ton a potential, but let's see if they can be even better next year before we give them too high a rating (assuming there is football next year). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kshutchins Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 No offense, but you too are missing the original question. The question was "how do you rate players" not "who do you rate in what category". My reason for not jumping in on the discussions about individual players is because it involves Browns players (as it should on a Browns board) but there is no way to have a logical discussion about those players here for the reasons I mentioned. As far as "how to rate players" Riffer X provided the only real answer to the original question......which in, and of itself, makes the world square, flat, non-existent Since you're determined to pick nits and be childishly concrete in your interpretation of the topic, I changed the name to reflect the spirit of the discussion. Now if you'd care to join in the assessment of players according to the rankings offered at the start of the thread, feel free to join in. If you'd like to offer your own rubric for evaluating talent, we'll gladly take a look. Ballpeen was gracious and inclusive and your response was inappropriately provocative. Buy yourself some manners and join the conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Outstanding! My point was pretty clear and is self evident except to those won't see it. Browns fans, all too often, make their decisions about a players greatness, or lack thereof, based soley on who that player plays for. In other words, unable to see beyond the Cleveland Browns fans hatred of the rest of the football world, particularly the great teams of today,s era of football, to make sound decisions. Browns fans, all too often, refuse to pay attention to what the rest of the football world sees because it often sheds a negative light on the Cleveland Browns. Every announcer, or sports show host, who has ever uttered a negative comment about Cleveland or the Browns is automatically an idiot.....despite the level of truth in the comment! When the rest of the football world talks about the greatness of former and current Steeler players, Browns fans call them names and and say they are biased, there is some big ugly consiracy. When the rest of the football world fails to talks about the former and current Browns players, Browns fans say the football world is against them. When the rest of the football world talks about the greatness of former and current players of any successful team, Browns fans can't see it because, all too many, Browns fans have spent their entire life in a Browns vacuum. Hating everyone who has anything negative to say about Cleveland or the Browns (despite the reality that is plain to see)....hating every other team who is successful because the Browns aren't.......hating, with a passion, anything about Pittsburgh or the Steelers because Pittsburgh and the Steelers picked themselves up by the bootstraps and took themselves from the gutter to greatness and remain there! The Browns went from greatness to the gutter, and remain there, and, all too many, Browns fans simply can't accept this. So........................."Unfortunately, for Browns fans, the rating is done by who they play for" It's like having a discussion about the beauty of the mountains with a group of people who have never seen the mountains. Actually, I think this applies here to this guy, who is clearly going over the edge: Dude is clearly on drugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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