Is the defensive scheme the problem? Or is it the players?

[Suomi]

Is it the new scheme the cause of the Browns' less-than-stellar defensive performance to-date? Is this scheme very difficult to learn - or is it not intuitive? Last week I kept reading that both Pettine and the players claimed that they just need to play their role and stop trying to make plays. Sounds like they haven't grasped the system yet, and their performance on the field is evidence of that.

 

Does this scheme require different players to operate effectively? Players that are more disciplined who will learn and play their "role"? I can't recall a stretch of 4 games where the Browns' tackling was as poor as this - is that a function of players abandoning their "role" and trying to make plays?

 

???

[Clevfan4life]

It's a good question. I'm just not sure if what I'm seeing is scheme related or not. If it is, teams have def solved it the scheme. It's just hard to imagine a defense struggling with a scheme to still look that bad. I know people are going to say they pitched a shutout in the 2nd half...but I think that had a lot to do with the Titans offense getting away from the run because Hoyer was starting to score. Our defense will always look ok as long as it isn't faced with a strong running attack. I shudder to think what that 49'ers run master O line would do to the browns right now. I think Gore and Hyde would both go for over 100.

[miktoxic]

dudes. savor the win.

 

stop it pleez.

 

enough said.

[TypicalBrowns]

Its scheme, man coverage these days in the NFL, with the new DB rules, just not a consistent way to stop an NFL defense, need to play zone more, our dbs (even Haden) just aren't good enough at just man coverage.

[TypicalBrowns]

Officiating has changed the game unfortunately.

[The Gipper]

I think the talent is there. It just has to mesh with the system. Not that we couldn't use more talent....always can do that...but for now we can only hope this group improves in this system. It seemed to work for the second half yesterday...and in game 1 vs. Squibs. It now has to go for a full game.

 

Two more first round picks next year may help with some talent.

[The Gipper]

Officiating has changed the game unfortunately.

Somewhat, yes. I don't think DBs can be as aggressive. I think that has hurt Haden.

[jrb12711]

Officiating has changed the game unfortunately.

 

Watching the late game last night they noted that through week 5 last year there were 38 illegal contact/holding penalties on the defense. Halfway through the late game last night, there have been 90 such calls this year. When it's all said and done after tonight's game, we're looking at roughly 250% increase in that penalty being called. That stuff changes the game man.

[bbedward]

It's a good question. I'm just not sure if what I'm seeing is scheme related or not. If it is, teams have def solved it the scheme. It's just hard to imagine a defense struggling with a scheme to still look that bad. I know people are going to say they pitched a shutout in the 2nd half...but I think that had a lot to do with the Titans offense getting away from the run because Hoyer was starting to score. Our defense will always look ok as long as it isn't faced with a strong running attack. I shudder to think what that 49'ers run master O line would do to the browns right now. I think Gore and Hyde would both go for over 100.

I do agree I think the titans got away from the run too early for some reason. What did they average, 7YPC in the first half?

[Clevfan4life]

yeah something like that. Why they brought in Whitehurst and put the game in his arm is beyond me. Fuggin run the ball and maybe we don't make that comeback cause our defense wouldn't have gotten off the field for the entire 2nd half.

I do agree I think the titans got away from the run too early for some reason. What did they average, 7YPC in the first half?

 

[Tour2ma]

First, my answer to the OP's question is both.

 

Players:

Our assembled D personnel were not "all that" last year; they had issues. This year 9 of 11 starters are back and at least in my estimation the two "new guys" are a net wash with the departed.

 

Scheme:

Going from a 3-4 with Kruger as a beefed-up, stand-up, rushing OLB to a "hybrid" with Kruger as a slimmed-down, stand-up, rushing OLB/DE is not as earth shatteringly different as I thought it would be.

 

 

Best I can see the biggest difference between last and this year's D is that last year I held out; this year I bought in.

[D Bone]

I had been thinking scheme was the issue since pre-season, but man, now I'm starting to wonder if it isn't more of a talent issue. When we drafted Gilbert, most, if not all of us assumed we would have 2 'shut down corners' which would allow us to do all sorts of aggressive packages, especially with the additions of Whitner and Dansby. Now, it's safe to declare we barley have just 1 above avg NFL CB, and the other guys just look, well, not very good. Yes, they do have their moments like yesterday's 4th and 1 stuffage, but they also stink it up for more plays than they don't.

 

Seems to me, there is only so much 'magic' in any particular scheme, and you simply have to have talent on the field to play well, no matter what magical scheme is being run.

[jcam222]

It may be a mixed bag of a lot of things but I am starting to believe in many cases its on the players lack of focus and execution. We miss so many tackles I can't believe my TV isnt broken. I don't think for most of the players its a talent issue either I simply think they come out flat and need a fire under their ass. The only place my opinion differs on that is with Haden and Skrine. The focus on playing man uncovers significant weaknesses on the part of both of them. This is an area that I think the coaches should fix by abandoning their obsession with man coverage and better utilizing the talent we have.

[LBC mike]

the offenses are changing to more of a spread. with the new rules it neuters the db. this opens for allot of qb scramble.

[miktoxic]

that's why nowadays as a DC DON"T put a stamp on your scheme. 4-3, 3-4. how about being a fluid changing thing depending on your opponent you are facing?

 

sheard mingo and kruger should have at least 2 sacks by now.

 

step up to the plate pettine and bring the gloves out of your panty drawer. sure you look tough but i'm still waiting for a knockout.

[ballpeen]

Somewhat, yes. I don't think DBs can be as aggressive. I think that has hurt Haden.

Not just Haden. This is playing out all over the league, so this isn't just a Joe Haden sucks type of deal as some think.

 

The NFL brass doesn't want tough, low scoring defensive battles. They want arena league type scoring. First it was no touching the QB. Now you really can't cover the receivers. The most the DBs can do is run and chase and hope for a bad pass to fall incomplete or be underthrown where they might have a chance to defend it.

[miktoxic]

Not just Haden. This is playing out all over the league, so this isn't just a Joe Haden sucks type of deal as some think.

 

The NFL brass doesn't want tough, low scoring defensive battles. They want arena league type scoring. First it was no touching the QB. Now you really can't cover the receivers. The most the DBs can do is run and chase and hope for a bad pass to fall incomplete or be underthrown where they might have a chance to defend it.

 

from your lips to god's ears.

 

100% correct.

[Tour2ma]

Not just Haden. This is playing out all over the league, so this isn't just a Joe Haden sucks type of deal as some think.

True... even Sherman has looked human. Makes it even more important to play tough in those first 5-yards where you can contact them.

[Manzier]

True... even Sherman has looked human. Makes it even more important to play tough in those first 5-yards where you can contact them.

Right now it seems like the best pass defense is a pass rush. Gotta knock the QB down before the receiver gets loose.

[CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS]

Sherman got "beat" on a zone play like the one where Joe was slow or late in his reading of the play.

 

I think as the year goes on the players will adapt. It can't get any worse for our secondary..

[miktoxic]

thought sherman's weave was gonna get pulled out by garcon.

 

i'm saying at LEAST 10 hurry ups and 15 touches and 5 sacks on ben.

[Manzier]

thought sherman's weave was gonna get pulled out by garcon.

 

i'm saying at LEAST 10 hurries up and 5 touches and 3 sacks on ben.

And let's be honest. Our guy Gilbert is really struggling, but he wont even be the worst Gilbert on the field sunday. We should be able to get to Ben easily through THAT wide open lane all day.

 

Monday story line: """Gilbert Fails - officially the worst offensive tackle in football""".

[Clevfan4life]

Pretty sure Sheard and Kruger do infact have at least two sacks each now, no? In any case, they should have more. Sheard and Kruger should be putting up near Hali/Rogers numbers.

that's why nowadays as a DC DON"T put a stamp on your scheme. 4-3, 3-4. how about being a fluid changing thing depending on your opponent you are facing?

 

sheard mingo and kruger should have at least 2 sacks by now.

 

step up to the plate pettine and bring the gloves out of your panty drawer. sure you look tough but i'm still waiting for a knockout.

 

[Tour2ma]

Pretty sure Sheard and Kruger do infact have at least two sacks each now, no?

Yes, two each...

[JAFBF]

Grossi talked about this the other day, and I read some stuff on it when we were looking for our next HC.

 

I think O'Neal may have said something about it today in his presser as well.

 

 

Short of it, in the past, it took about 6 weeks or so before the D started to come into their own at both NYJ and BUF.

 

Buffalo Run D still wasn't great (not sure about the Jets), so I don't really expect our Run D to be stellar, but at least better than what it is.

I believe I mentioned the Run D of this scheme when we hired Pettine.

 

Still like Pettine so far, but it's a soft point of this scheme I believe.

Can it be fixed/improved upon?

Given time and Personnel, I'm inclined to say yes, but at this point (15 years) in the process we're not a real patient bunch

[JAFBF]

Just came across this :

 

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/article-1/Locker-Room-Report-5-things-you-need-to-know-about-Thursdays-Browns-practice/3fd856cd-c6d9-4e26-9b40-66fe38689d7c?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

 

 

Defensive approach will change this week

• The phrase “pissed off” has come into focus this week for the Cleveland Browns defense. Defensive coordinator Jim O’Neil was proud of how his unit played in the second half against Tennessee, but 28 points in one half is unacceptable.
• The Browns want to take the venom they are feeling for collectively underperforming and unleash it on the Steelers. The Cleveland defense is out to prove the hype that surrounded the unit all throughout the spring and summer is on the cusp of happening. And you might see them play a different brand of football than we’ve seen.
• “The message to the group this week is, ‘Hey, let’s cut it loose. Let’s go play. Let’s cut it loose. Let’s go play. Let’s not be scared to make a mistake. Let’s go make plays,’” said O’Neil.
• It’s a simple philosophy: if the Browns are going to allow big plays on defense – which they plan on tightening up – then they need to create turnovers on their end, too.

Justin Gilbert still refining his technique

• Justin Gilbert himself talked with confidence in the locker room. He knows if Joe Haden (hip) isn’t able to suit up Sunday, this Steelers game could be the springboard that helps him reach the level the organization knows he can reach.
• “I’m just continuing to work hard on the practice field,” said Gilbert. “I’ve continued to work on my technique to do stuff that puts me in position to make plays.”
• Gilbert is openly pleased with how well fellow rookie K’Waun Williams played against Tennessee. Like coach Mike Pettine referenced earlier in the week, comparing Williams and Gilbert is like comparing an offensive guard to an offensive tackle. Williams is strictly a nickel cornerback while Gilbert plays on the outside.
• “I’m not sure how he was undrafted,” Gilbert said, referencing Williams. “I’m glad he’s on our team.”
• Remember this: Gilbert was borderline dominant in the preseason against the Redskins when guarding Pierre Garcon. We wrote about it here. He has the tools to succeed.
• The thing about coach Pettine and O’Neil’s defensive system is the cornerbacks truly have to profoundly change some of the techniques they’ve been taught throughout college and even from other NFL coaching staffs. Cornerbacks in this system need to rely on the things they are coached more than pure athleticism.
• “A lot of guys who are elite athletes can get away with a lot of stuff at the college level,” said O’Neil about Gilbert and rookies in general. “Then you get into the NFL, and that guy is just athletic as you. He’s just as talented as you. You’ve got to rely on your fundamentals and technique. It’s just him being more consistent with his technique. He has flashed very good coverage skills at times during games, and then when he relies on some old habits and some old technique, that’s when he gets himself into trouble.”

Video: Justin Gilbert talks to the press

John Hughes ready to make a big impact

• When the Browns announced who was inactive Sunday morning against Tennessee and John Hughes saw his name on the list,
• “Being a competitor, If I wasn’t upset or disappointed about not playing, then I wouldn’t be here in the NFL today,” said Hughes. “Yeah, I was disappointed but it made me want to work harder and keep getting better.”
• With Phil Taylor out after knee surgery and Billy Winn’s status (quad) up in the air, Hughes will likely be a big part of the game plan. Remember, Hughes played in 15 games last season, piling up 34 tackles even as a gap control run-stopper. The Browns could certainly use some of those skills against Pittsburgh’s multi-purpose weapon Le’Veon Bell.

Kyle Shanahan gives an offensive update

• Reporters love it when coaches drop factoids on them, and Shanahan did so in his Thursday afternoon press conference. Against the Titans, the Browns averaged 5.8 yards per play when they huddled and 5.8 yards per play when they went no-huddle.
• “It’s a feel thing,” said Shanahan about when the Browns could change the tempo. “No-huddle hurt us versus Baltimore and New Orleans, and it was great versus Pittsburgh the game before. Nothing’s an absolute in this league. You’ve got to mix it up all the time.”
• The best thing about Brian Hoyer? We don’t exactly know where his ceiling could be. Right now the 28-year-old is on pace for 24 touchdowns and only four interceptions.
• “I think it’s a mystery to everybody because he hasn’t played a lot of games,” Shanahan said about Hoyer’s upside. “He’s played four this year, and I think he’s gotten better in each game. I always will say you get better or worse, and if he continues to get better each week I think we’re going to have a pretty good quarterback when it’s all said and done.”
• The Browns do plan on using all three running backs, but again, like the no-huddle, it will be a feel thing. Running backs coach Wilbert Montgomery typically handles all the substitutions at the position, and has done a glowing job thus far.

Travis Benjamin still working on punt returns

• Why we love football: in the third quarter of the Titans game, Benjamin’s muffed punt looked like it might cost the Browns the game. Instead, his number 11 jersey will be located in the Hall of Fame until the end of time.
• Right after Benjamin’s fumble when the Titans were set to re-punt the ball, there’s a little anecdote that floored special teams coordinator Chris Tabor on Sunday.
• “He came right up to me and said, ‘Coach, put me out there,’” said Tabor. “He had confidence in wanting to go back out there. Then being able to step up on the offense and make those two touchdowns – that says a lot about the kid. That’s why I’m so encouraged that he’ll work through this thing right here with regards to the punt returns and get right back on track.”
• Benjamin has been staying late on the practice field to catch 100 punts each day. Remember, he was drawing Devin Hester comparisons last season. It’s not far-fetched to think his offensive resurgence could help him on special teams.

 

Defense is talking tough, now do something about it - talk is cheap.

 

On Gilbert, I do remember him being better versus Washington, so there is hope.

 

Looks like Hughes may be in this game, and he may want to make a statement - sure hope so, we need some playmakers.

 

Shanahan is still looking for the ceiling on Hoyer, that's got to be a big plus for us.

Seriously, who on here couldn't tell how much better Hoyer was than any QB we've had the past Decade when he played his first game for us?

. . . and he's only started eight games . . .

 

Benji will be okay, he's still coming back from a torn ACL.

He's doing good as a WR, but is still nervous on the PR's, which is where he got hurt - understandable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[slimdawg]

It may be a mixed bag of a lot of things but I am starting to believe in many cases its on the players lack of focus and execution. We miss so many tackles I can't believe my TV isnt broken. I don't think for most of the players its a talent issue either I simply think they come out flat and need a fire under their ass. The only place my opinion differs on that is with Haden and Skrine. The focus on playing man uncovers significant weaknesses on the part of both of them. This is an area that I think the coaches should fix by abandoning their obsession with man coverage and better utilizing the talent we have.

Yup, alot of what ive seen is guys being out of position and unable to make the play. That screams lack of discipline to me, but definitely fixable.

[Tour2ma]

Interesting stuff, JAF.... thanks...

 

This especially caught my eye:

"The thing about coach Pettine and O’Neil’s defensive system is the cornerbacks truly have to profoundly change some of the techniques they’ve been taught throughout college and even from other NFL coaching staffs. Cornerbacks in this system need to rely on the things they are coached more than pure athleticism."

May explain the Gilbert and Desir picks. Both were less polished, but athletic with size picks. Desir even more so adding the small school factor.

 

Preference for blank-ish slates to be coached up vs. the more "NFL ready" DBs like Fuller and Dennard who might have to "unlearn" skills...

 

We shall see...

[Clevfan4life]

Defense is talking tough huh? Oh boy look out. That last 100 yard game put up by scrubs must have been the final straw.

 

I'd kind of rather they just stfu and tackle this week.

[JAFBF]

Here's a follow up to the presser I heard :

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/cleveland-browns/post/_/id/8658/oneil-pettines-past-defenses-improved-over-season

 

Of note as I mentioned :

 

 

So when defensive coordinator Jim O’Neil points out that the successful system run by the Browns started slowly in its first seasons with the Jets in 2009 and the Bills in 2013, it’s worth checking.

Here are the numbers:

The Jets gave up 303 yards per game and 17 points per game in the first six games in ’09, the year Rex Ryan was hired and Mike Pettine was defensive coordinator.

They gave up 221.7 yards per game and 13.2 points per game the final 10 games.

Things got better as the season progressed: In ’09, the Jets ended the season on a playoff run by giving up 6, 13, 3, 13, 15 and 0 points, respectively, in the final six games -- an average of 8.3 per game.

In Buffalo in 2013, with Pettine as defensive coordinator and O’Neil his right-hand man, the Bills gave up 395 yards and 22.7 points in the first six games.

The final 10, they gave up an average of 296.4 yard and 23.1 points.

Clearly, the points-against numbers in Buffalo were not good, as the Bills gave up more than 20 points in four of the last five games, and more than 30 in two.

But the trend in yardage with both teams (and in points with one of the teams) was positive as the season progressed.