Brian Hoyer-hating seems misguided and misplaced

[JAFBF]

I just re-watched the Tampa game.

 

First, Tampa is not that bad of a Team, they've got some serious talent.

 

 

Now as in regards to Hoyer . . . same thing I've been saying for a couple of weeks now, it's the OL.

 

The OL is buckling right now, Hoyer is getting rushed and having to throw quicker than intended - sometimes out of position so the accuracy suffers.

 

OL can't sustain the run game right now, so that puts even more pressure on Hoyer.

 

 

Firm up the OL and/or get the run game going, and then I think you'll see improved QB play.

QB play has essentially faltered ever since Mack went out.

 

 

Hoyer's a good QB, right now we just have other issues.

 

I have no issues with Manziel either, he needs to keep studying and learning - College to Pro is quite a jump.

[Tour2ma]

Now as in regards to Hoyer . . . same thing I've been saying for a couple of weeks now, it's the OL.

You are wise beyond your years... whatever they total...

[miktoxic]

I have no issues with Manziel either, he needs to keep studying and learning - College to Pro is quite a jump.

 

but yet people don't see that when talking about gilbert.

[TexasKevin06]

I have been watching Texas A&M football my entire life so when Johnny got drafted by the Browns I decided they were going to be my team. I studied up on the players and coaches and was ready to go all in for the season. When Hoyer won the job I figured like most that it was just a matter of time before Johnny got in. But it seems that isn't going to happen for a while.

 

I am trying my best to root for this team, but it is very hard to be unbiased. I don't think anybody can say Hoyer hasn't done a good job as the starter. It is hard to argue with 5 wins. He has played very well at the end of games to win them and he limits his mistakes. However his play during stretches of some games, especially the first half, has been downright awful. Some of the blame has to go to the running game and o line, but I can't imagine the better quarterbacks in the league struggling as bad as Hoyer. I think at this point in his career this is who Hoyer is. Can make some good throws but is never going to elevate the team to new heights.

 

It seems most of you never actually watched Johnny at A&M. You only go off of what you saw in the preseason. For those of you that want to compare Johnny to the likes of Tim Tebow, Brady Quinn, Vince Young, Matt Leinart, RG3, Colt Mccoy, and others you are a little off. Obviously success in college doesn't always translate to the NFL but Johnny was on a whole other level to those guys. Just look at the stats and tape and it is not even close. Johnny didn't win championships sure but he was only at A&M for his freshman and sophomore years and his teams were nowhere near as good as the teams the other quarterbacks had.

 

Some of the concerns you all have about him are unfounded. Johnny is as durable as they come. He isn't RG3 or Vick. His first year at A&M he ran 201 times and missed less than a quarter because a guy rolled over on his ankle after the play was over. His second year he injured his thumb hitting a helmet but that was basically it. The only reason he rarely slid or ran out of bounds is because A&M's defense was horrible and every yard was important. His arm is a lot better that people think too. His passing was best in the nation by a lot of statistics. He rarely missed guys. Most of the interceptions he threw were, again, because of A&M's defense, he couldn't just throw it away and punt. And finally his running ability was the best I have ever seen. You can give me Hoyer's passing numbers but he has -3 rushing yards. The simple threat of Johnny running ability will help the running backs a little bit and the few times Hoyer threw an incomplete pass Johnny might have ran for 20 yards.

 

If Johnny isn't playing because he isn't ready then I am fine having him sit the bench. But if he isn't playing because Hoyer has played just good enough to not get benched then I really think they need to make the switch.

[D Bone]

The lil fella will be glad he has another fan on this forum.................. However, we Browns fans won't be nearly as happy.

[Mark O]

Here's one more that summarizes the way 98% of us around here feel...


By Bud Shaw, The Plain Dealer
Follow on Twitter
on November 02, 2014 at 8:15 PM, updated November 02, 2014 at 8:42 PM

CLEVELAND, Ohio – We have pretty much reached the point of absurdity in the Brian Hoyer Story.

On the same day Hoyer threw for 300 yards, won his fifth game of the season and thanked Tampa Bay's All-Pro tackle Gerald McCoy for a flattering review shared during the week, he also heard boos.

At home. While helping the Browns become relevant in November for the first time in seven years.

The craziest part? The Browns have set an incredibly low standard over the years. Yet Hoyer's team is disappointing because it doesn't put the dregs of the league away with complete dispatch?

As recently as last year, the Browns were Tampa Bay, Oakland and Jacksonville.

A year ago, Brandon Weeden and Jason Campbell couldn't make the plays Hoyer is making at big moments. And still, some otherwise sane people are leapfrogging the moment winning is finally happening at the lakefront to gripe that Hoyer isn't the long-range answer.

Who cares?

The Browns often give you reason to greet November by saying wait 'till next year. But this surely can't be one of those times, can it?

"Fans are fans," Joe Haden was saying after the Browns' 22-17 win over Tampa. "I can only say we believe in Hoyer. He's done a great job. He's what – 8-3 as a starter? On offense we have some injuries and he's doing the best he can do."

Haden plays on the side of the ball that wasn't missing three All-Pros, the side that was being gashed by former Browns running back Bobby Rainey for 80 yards in the first half.

There was less reason to believe the Browns would shut down the run in the second half than there was to imagine Hoyer directing a turnaround (it's his thing, after all). Both happened.

Hoyer, who has a track record of hot streaks dating to Minnesota last year, hit a stretch late in the first half through the initial drive of the second half where he connected on 11 consecutive passes.

He finished with 300 yards, two touchdowns and two interceptions. Other NFL starters go through equally inaccurate periods during games. Hoyer might be the only one whose three-and-outs routinely prompt TV cutaways to the backup QB. In this case, Johnny Manziel, the Browns' Cat in the Hat.

"We're doing a good job of finding ways to win," said Joe Thomas, who didn't mention they're playing without Alex Mack, Jordan Cameron and Josh Gordon. "Part of that is having a quarterback who's making the clutch throws."

One of those was the 34-yarder to Taylor Gabriel that became the game-winner. Hoyer ignored his intended target, prompting offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan to bark into his headset, "Why didn't he throw it?"

Mike Pettine remembered it as one of those "no, no, yes, yes" moments. Hoyer waited, got a great cut block from Terrance West on a blitzing Buccaneers linebacker and found Gabriel wide open. This time he hit him in stride.

"I tell our receivers, "If you see me looking around, just go deep," Hoyer said. "It wasn't always pretty the way our offense was playing. But if you look in the box score, we're 5-3.

"You never want to hear (boos) but, hey, we expect more from ourselves than our fans do. We thought we should be playing better."

What we know about Hoyer after eight starts this season and three a year ago is that he can look every bit like the undrafted free agent he was coming out Michigan State.

Then he's dropping a soft pass into Jim Dray's hands for 26 yards on third-and-one in a game the Browns trail, 10-9.

He can throw three passes in the shadow of his own goal line – two incompletions, a total of minus-2 yards -- then connect with Miles Austin for 25 yards on third-and-16. Is that all the benefit of playing poor defenses?

Perhaps no team or quarterback could use a game to give their season context as much as the Browns and Hoyer need Thursday night's prime time matchup in Cincinnati. At least that's what it feels like after playing three teams with a combined record of 1-and-a-trillion.

"We knew if we did well (the last three games) that we'd be playing a meaningful game in Cincinnati," said Hoyer.

They went 2-1, which beats two other possibilities.

No guarantee his play won't be boo worthy against the Bengals. But if Hoyer has proven anything in his career over two seasons it's that it's premature to count him down and out.

The Browns will go with him until they're not playoff contenders. For now, he's the starting quarterback for a 5-3 team in his hometown. It's a pretty cool story.

Let's not skip to the epilogue when the story is half over.

[hoorta]

 

but yet people don't see that when talking about gilbert.

 

Exactly Mik.

 

I have been watching Texas A&M football my entire life so when Johnny got drafted by the Browns I decided they were going to be my team. I studied up on the players and coaches and was ready to go all in for the season. When Hoyer won the job I figured like most that it was just a matter of time before Johnny got in. But it seems that isn't going to happen for a while.

 

I am trying my best to root for this team, but it is very hard to be unbiased. I don't think anybody can say Hoyer hasn't done a good job as the starter. It is hard to argue with 5 wins. He has played very well at the end of games to win them and he limits his mistakes. However his play during stretches of some games, especially the first half, has been downright awful. Some of the blame has to go to the running game and o line, but I can't imagine the better quarterbacks in the league struggling as bad as Hoyer. I think at this point in his career this is who Hoyer is. Can make some good throws but is never going to elevate the team to new heights.

 

It seems most of you never actually watched Johnny at A&M. You only go off of what you saw in the preseason. For those of you that want to compare Johnny to the likes of Tim Tebow, Brady Quinn, Vince Young, Matt Leinart, RG3, Colt Mccoy, and others you are a little off. Obviously success in college doesn't always translate to the NFL but Johnny was on a whole other level to those guys. Just look at the stats and tape and it is not even close. Johnny didn't win championships sure but he was only at A&M for his freshman and sophomore years and his teams were nowhere near as good as the teams the other quarterbacks had.

 

Some of the concerns you all have about him are unfounded. Johnny is as durable as they come. He isn't RG3 or Vick. His first year at A&M he ran 201 times and missed less than a quarter because a guy rolled over on his ankle after the play was over. His second year he injured his thumb hitting a helmet but that was basically it. The only reason he rarely slid or ran out of bounds is because A&M's defense was horrible and every yard was important. His arm is a lot better that people think too. His passing was best in the nation by a lot of statistics. He rarely missed guys. Most of the interceptions he threw were, again, because of A&M's defense, he couldn't just throw it away and punt. And finally his running ability was the best I have ever seen. You can give me Hoyer's passing numbers but he has -3 rushing yards. The simple threat of Johnny running ability will help the running backs a little bit and the few times Hoyer threw an incomplete pass Johnny might have ran for 20 yards.

 

If Johnny isn't playing because he isn't ready then I am fine having him sit the bench. But if he isn't playing because Hoyer has played just good enough to not get benched then I really think they need to make the switch.

 

We saw enough of him to have our concerns. His off field antics before the season started didn't exactly win him a bunch of friends and influence Browns fans much- including this one. No one is doubting Manziel's potential- when his time comes, and it's not yet. Don't forget- this is only JFFs third season of high level football- he'd still be a junior back at A&M. Manziel is squarely behind the eight ball in that regard because supposedly the Aggies didn't have much of a playbook. So instead of going in full bore learning Shanahan's playbook, Johnny decided he'd rather chug champagne in Vegas and hang with Bee-ber. Ya got some growing up to do- kiddo. Fortunately since the season started, he's been all business.

 

It's a humongous jump from college to the NFL- just ask Blake Bortles and Teddy Twatwater how hard it is. Derek Carr is faring the best of the rookies to date, and the Raiders haven't won a game yet.

 

You just don't bench a winning qb in the NFL to see how your prize rookie is going to fare. This is absolutely the best scenario for Manziel to be in. Hoyer is a film rat extraordinaire. He may not out- athletic anyone, but he sure studies the other team to a fault.

[TXDawg]

"off the field antics" then use then word "Twatwater".

 

Are you a pe teacher?

[hoorta]

"off the field antics" then use then word "Twatwater".

 

Are you a pe teacher?

 

You have to understand one of the uber-moderators (and that isn't me), has the power to auto correct words. I didn't realize he was having fun with Teddy. So Bridge-water becomes Twatwater. Bee-ber becomes Tiny Canadian Pussy Douche. Bark-ing Ha-rd becomes Brady Quinn Homo Fan club. There's a few others. I have spell check running.

[JAFBF]

You are wise beyond your years... whatever they total...

 

Exhibit A :

 

 

 

As for the years . . . let's just say I was alive when the Browns won their last Championship

[JAFBF]

 

but yet people don't see that when talking about gilbert.

 

Gilbert has improved quite a bit.

 

Still a long way to go, but he's definitely making progress.

 

The System he came into hasn't helped him much either - putting a Rookie out on an Island by himself and expecting our non-existent Pass Rush to minimize his cover time = what we saw early on.

[darkside5]

I don't give a damn what Johnny did at A&M. Ohio ain't Texas and the NFL ain't college. He's only played one game when the temperature was less than 50 degrees and he lost. It's pretty damn cold on Lake Erie in the winter, and if you ever played football (especially QB), it ain't as easy as 70 degree weather. I don't like Manzeil because he made a horrible first impression with me, and in MHO I think he's way over rated. With that being said, If and when he's the starter I will still be a Browns fan and will cheer for Manzeil.

GO BROWNS!

[JAFBF]

I have been watching Texas A&M football my entire life so when Johnny got drafted by the Browns I decided they were going to be my team. I studied up on the players and coaches and was ready to go all in for the season. When Hoyer won the job I figured like most that it was just a matter of time before Johnny got in. But it seems that isn't going to happen for a while.

 

I am trying my best to root for this team, but it is very hard to be unbiased. I don't think anybody can say Hoyer hasn't done a good job as the starter. It is hard to argue with 5 wins. He has played very well at the end of games to win them and he limits his mistakes. However his play during stretches of some games, especially the first half, has been downright awful. Some of the blame has to go to the running game and o line, but I can't imagine the better quarterbacks in the league struggling as bad as Hoyer. I think at this point in his career this is who Hoyer is. Can make some good throws but is never going to elevate the team to new heights.

 

It seems most of you never actually watched Johnny at A&M. You only go off of what you saw in the preseason. For those of you that want to compare Johnny to the likes of Tim Tebow, Brady Quinn, Vince Young, Matt Leinart, RG3, Colt Mccoy, and others you are a little off. Obviously success in college doesn't always translate to the NFL but Johnny was on a whole other level to those guys. Just look at the stats and tape and it is not even close. Johnny didn't win championships sure but he was only at A&M for his freshman and sophomore years and his teams were nowhere near as good as the teams the other quarterbacks had.

 

Some of the concerns you all have about him are unfounded. Johnny is as durable as they come. He isn't RG3 or Vick. His first year at A&M he ran 201 times and missed less than a quarter because a guy rolled over on his ankle after the play was over. His second year he injured his thumb hitting a helmet but that was basically it. The only reason he rarely slid or ran out of bounds is because A&M's defense was horrible and every yard was important. His arm is a lot better that people think too. His passing was best in the nation by a lot of statistics. He rarely missed guys. Most of the interceptions he threw were, again, because of A&M's defense, he couldn't just throw it away and punt. And finally his running ability was the best I have ever seen. You can give me Hoyer's passing numbers but he has -3 rushing yards. The simple threat of Johnny running ability will help the running backs a little bit and the few times Hoyer threw an incomplete pass Johnny might have ran for 20 yards.

 

If Johnny isn't playing because he isn't ready then I am fine having him sit the bench. But if he isn't playing because Hoyer has played just good enough to not get benched then I really think they need to make the switch.

 

Although Hoyer has been in the League for several years, keep in mind he's only Started/played like 11 or 12 games.

 

He hasn't even played a full Season's worth yet . . . he's essentially an "experienced" Rookie, and is still in his Rookie year playing experience wise.

 

Manziel is probably more Athletic than Hoyer, but Hoyer is playing a more Cerebral NFL level game than Manziel is going to be able to do right now.

 

You're probably not too familiar with our history of just churning threw QB's.

There are a lot of reasons for this - poor supporting personnel, Coaching, Owner (previous) apathy, and so on.

The decent QB's we've had were put in too soon and thrown to the Wolves of our Division - we just ruined them.

 

Because of this, not too many players really cared to come here unless it was for excessive money.

 

 

In short, it's really in Manziel's best interest and longevity to sit right now and let the NFL game come to him.

 

 

Also, welcome to the board

[jrb12711]

What I've been telling everyone this whole season since I'm the only Browns fan most people know. You keep the guy out there who is putting W's in the column instead of L's. I always had and still have my concerns with Hoyer, but the Browns are winning with him which is something we haven't seen coming on a decade. If he plays poorly and the losses start mounting up, then the calls for JM are warranted. Until then, just win, baby

[Tour2ma]

If Johnny isn't playing because he isn't ready then I am fine having him sit the bench.

First, welcome... nice first post and so long as you don't repeat its "finer points" ad nauseam without any new information to validate them (and are actually a Browns fan), you'll have a great time here.

 

Here's one more that summarizes the way 98% of us around here feel...

 

"Let's not skip to the epilogue when the story is half over." - By Bud Shaw, The Plain Dealer

Great last line...

 

Exhibit A :

 

 

As for the years . . . let's just say I was alive when the Browns won their last Championship

lol... alive, but not aware? I remember the championship game... at least I used to...

 

On the gif... while bad (and still D- worthy), it appeared worse than it was. McD tripped over Bito's right leg. Without the trip McCoy still might have bulled McD into BH's lap, but an escape might have been possible.

[gftChris]

First, welcome... nice first post and so long as you don't repeat its "finer points" ad nauseam without any new information to validate them (and are actually a Browns fan), you'll have a great time here.

 

 

Great last line...

 

 

lol... alive, but not aware? I remember the championship game... at least I used to...

 

On the gif... while bad (and still D- worthy), it was worse than it appeared. McD tripped over Bito's right leg. Without the trip McCoy still might have bulled McD into BH's lap, but an escape might have been possible.

You mean appeared worse than it was? Cos it appeared pretty bad...

[Tour2ma]

You mean appeared worse than it was? Cos it appeared pretty bad...

Yeah... what you said...

 

Spell check is not enough... I need a proofreader...

[JAFBF]

I'm thinking I saw a few more plays in a similar vein, but this was the only GIF I could find in short order.

 

It is only his second start in a few years and is correctable, I just don't know how long it'll take,

[gftChris]

I don't know much about the finer points of OL play and assignments and things like that, but I do know about leverage from growing up around rugby, and scrums in particular. So when I see McDonald snap the ball, then immediately get upright, I can tell he's going to get driven back by anyone with better leverage, regardless of how strong he is.

 

Something like that is fixable, though probably not in one practise session (no practise mon/weds/thurs).

[ballpeen]

Exactly who are the Manzealots that are not happy that the wrong QB is winning? Point one out please.

Exactly my thinking. If some hear one person call for JF, they act like it is dozens or hundreds.

 

I don't know why they are so damn insecure.

[nickers]

Exactly my thinking. If some hear one person call for JF, they act like it is dozens or hundreds.

 

I don't know why they are so damn insecure.

Theyre insecure because he's not playing and the possibility of being a "bust" still looms.

[Clevfan4life]

So was that Bito's or McD's fault for that trip? Now that I see that gif...McD engaged and Bito came over to help him and slid his right leg behind McD's left. Not the way you want to help your boy is it?

[bbedward]

So was that Bito's or McD's fault for that trip? Now that I see that gif...McD engaged and Bito came over to help him and slid his right leg behind McD's left. Not the way you want to help your boy is it?

 

Idk that I'd really blame either of them. I'd blame McD more for getting thrown back so fast, but it is Gerald McCoy.

[Clevfan4life]

The problem is that the instant he engaged with McCoy Bito's leg was behind him. So his base was essentially gone before he even got started. I mean he had problems the whole game, but not THAT bad as we see in that gif. That happened once. Yeah he couldn't keep guys out of the backfield much but he wasn't getting dropped on his ass. That's gotta be Bito's fault. Any of the guys that played O line here know that the line coaches always yelled at you if you doubled up on a guy and got your feet close to your lineman.....for this exact reason.

 

Idk that I'd really blame either of them. I'd blame McD more for getting thrown back so fast, but it is Gerald McCoy.

 

[Zombo]

• QB Brian Hoyer improved to 8-3 as a starter for the Browns and

6-1 at home following the team’s 22-17 victory against Tampa Bay

(11/2). Hoyer recorded his second 300-yard passing game and he

has engineered four fourth-quarter come-from-behind wins. Hoyer

is also the fi rst Browns quarterback to throw for 200-plus yards in

each of the team’s fi rst eight games of a season since Brian Sipe

in 1983. Hoyer is leading the NFL with an average of 13.79 yards

per completion this season. He is also tied for the NFL lead with

eight completions of 40-plus yards. In addition, Hoyer is tied for

fourth in the NFL with 33 passes of 20-plus yards. In Hoyer’s 11

career starts with the Browns, the team is averaging 24.0 points

per game. The Browns average 17.6 points per game in all other

games since 2013.

^ Browns press release. Yes, it is fluff but it sure beats the Brady McFrye/Campweeden days.

I think Hoyer has a big game against the Bengals. I think a short week and a road game is just we he needs right now, and he has his best game of the season.

Zombo

[ballpeen]

Theyre insecure because he's not playing and the possibility of being a "bust" still looms.

You read it backassward my friend;)

[bbedward]

The problem is that the instant he engaged with McCoy Bito's leg was behind him. So his base was essentially gone before he even got started. I mean he had problems the whole game, but not THAT bad as we see in that gif. That happened once. Yeah he couldn't keep guys out of the backfield much but he wasn't getting dropped on his ass. That's gotta be Bito's fault. Any of the guys that played O line here know that the line coaches always yelled at you if you doubled up on a guy and got your feet close to your lineman.....for this exact reason.

 

 

Looks like McD was bullied and dropped face down more than once, but he seemed to get a little better as the game went on.

[Tour2ma]

Looks like McD was bullied and dropped face down more than once, but he seemed to get a little better as the game went on.

Pretty much the case as I saw it as well.

 

Nick McDonald: 1st +4-11 net -8 w/ 4D-; 2nd +6-12 net -6 w/ 1D-; Game Totals: +10-23 net -13

 

First off... the spectacular, early blow up of McD by McCoy (S1P3) was "enhanced" by Bito's right foot tripping McD (look close at the gif, you'll see it). Not that he wasn't on his way to Hoyer's lap, if not the ground, anyway. To prove he did not need Bito's help, he got himself planted again two plays later (S1P5). For the balance of the Q1 he actually played "decent", +2-0 ball. Q2 brought back-to-back bad on S5P2&3. First an LB ripped him on his way to stuffing West for a 4 yd loss. Then he was too slow to plug a gap allowing a QB hurry.

 

In a nutshell I see power in McD's game if he has a little space/ time to gear up for a drive block. Under such circumstance he even managed to turn McCoy one time... a nice effort there. But if McD is beaten to the punch or is not square to his assignment, there's trouble in his immediate future. Same is true if he can set for pass protection, but if driven back at the snap, he can't halt the surge. He does generally keep his head on a decent swivel in pass protection and can pick up a stunt into his area, but lacks the quicks to move and help.

[Unsympathetic]

I'm a fan of playing Hoyer.

 

But also, know this. He is IN NO WAY worth Flacco money. If his agent brings that up even as a joke [or a starting point]in the offseason, he's released and good riddance without a second thought. At best 3 yrs / $20M.

 

Yes, Manziel sits. He should. But Hoyer's value is not infinite.

[darkside5]

The Browns and Hoyers agent are both doing their jobs respectively, just like any other contract negotiations . You always ask for more than you will accept and the owners offer less than they will accept. Hence the bargaining process will eventually work out. The Browns know Hoyer wants to play for his hometown team (who wouldn't), and that's their bargaining chip. Hoyer has had more success than any QB in recent history and that's his bargaining chip. The fly in the ointment is actually Manziel.

Do the Browns go out on a limb and insinuate that Jonnny's their guy for the future to pressure Hoyer to sign for less or worse yet, force Hoyer out? Both sides could be treading on thin ice. If Hoyer's forced out and Johnny Football is a bust "You got a lotta splainin' to do Lucy !" Either way it will be interesting to see how this shakes out.

 

GO BROWNS !