tiamat63 Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 The Apostle Paul listed a number of sins that would keep a person from entering the kingdom. Homosexuality was just one of them, not the only one. Christians like myself do not hate gays but will never cross a line and condone gay b ehavior and take sides against clear bible teaching against homosexuality in both the Old and New covenant. Nobody knows the exact date of the Lord's return. We just look at the signs of the end times. They are staring at us now. Im well aware of the sins referenced by Saint Paul. I do believe that idolaters and adulters are actually listed before homosexuality, correct? Now that's not to say that each sin doesn't hold equal weight as I don't suspect they are listed in descending order of severity. So be that the case, why do we tend to focus on one yet not the others? Also, much like my former pastor - I would love to hear your time table on Jesus' return. I always hear the 'like a thief in the night' and 'nobody knows when the lords return' however im consistently told (even though men do not know) that we're in the 'end times'. So that means presumably soon...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 Yes Cal, being smarter and learning more is evil and should be avoided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted May 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 Im well aware of the sins referenced by Saint Paul. I do believe that idolaters and adulters are actually listed before homosexuality, correct? Now that's not to say that each sin doesn't hold equal weight as I don't suspect they are listed in descending order of severity. So be that the case, why do we tend to focus on one yet not the others? Also, much like my former pastor - I would love to hear your time table on Jesus' return. I always hear the 'like a thief in the night' and 'nobody knows when the lords return' however im consistently told (even though men do not know) that we're in the 'end times'. So that means presumably soon...? We shouldn't focus on one sin and not the others. They are all sin and that has always been my point. "The Bible says we cannot know the time of the Lord's return (Matthew 25:13). But the Scriptures make it equally clear that we can know the season of the Lord's return (1 Thessalonians 5:2-6): "You yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night... But you brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night or darkness; so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober." This passage asserts that Jesus is coming like "a thief in the night." But then it proceeds to make it clear that this will be true only for the pagan world and not for believers. His return should be no surprise to those who know Him and His Word, for they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to give them understanding of the nature of the times." The article I am posting lists 50 signs (and that was what we were told to look for) that the Lord is soon returning. http://www.lamblion.com/articles/articles_signs11.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 Yes Cal, being smarter and learning more is evil and should be avoided. Log *********************************************************** No, Log, ...disproving the stupid idea that education makes everybody smarter and gives everybody great reasoning skills, does not equal the inverse, either. The subject, you are glossing over, is the Woody/Tiam connection to dissing the Bible, and dissing cultural values and morality in the Bible, as a foundation for what actually gives people a guide to being a better person, better reasoning skills, and smarter. Doesn't mean that the guide is misused, or that Christians are better than everybody else. The constant woody notion that education makes for superiority ranks up there with the nazis' arrogance of superiority because of their race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 Tiam - in the Bible, it talks about "when the olive tree leaves spring forth" or something like that. The explanation is, the rebirth of Israel. As a tribe, they were assaulted endlessly, always, as explained in the Bible. The rebirth of the Israeli tribe is the creation of Israel in 1948. Since then, things have transpired ... the loss of morality, etc, rampant, extreme evil (I suppose you can include the doecsh sp?, and anti-Bible attacks around the globe).... and there are other signs, which, OBF just posted, I notice. If you know all those signs, you can interpret the goings on today, and understand that we are spiraling into big, serious trouble. Historically, society after society has fallen and crumbled, from a lack of morality and goodness in cultural values. Empire after empire. Civilization after civilization. The Bible explains this, and it's true. The Soviet Union crumbled, even. And Tiam, there is no timetable, smartass tattoo, but the trends and predictions are there to observe. If you go by the warnings of the Bible, we seem to be running downhill towards a cliff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 And as OBF posted: "The article I am posting lists 50 signs (and that was what we were told to look for) that the Lord is soon returning." http://www.lamblion....les_signs11.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 Holy shit cal, have you ever missed the point that hard? Please show me where I said education gives everyone great reasoning skills... The point was that, as we become more educated, we develop as a people. Are we not smarter as a whole than we were in the Middle Ages? The 1800s? Kids from each generation will be more educated than the previous (tho mot as drastic). No fucking shit you can find bad people that had great educations. That doesn't devalue it at all. A point you and OBF both missed, I never said this increased education means we're "more good". Just that we adv as a people. More of us are scientifically and mathematically literate. That's incredibly important. The point was, as more people become more educated, the need for religion will diminish. And this has been happening for centuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 No you are missing the point. People are not inherently good and education will not make them that way. If you don't think people are born with a sin nature you need to watch some young children, they are naturally selfish and disobedient. It is human nature that education is not going to improve. Do you think education is going to "evolve" human nature. You are sadly mistaken. What do you think communism was about? If everyone in society is equal, then everyone will choose to act properly. They will work to the best of their ability and take only what they need from the community. Does Marxism, Communism or socialism work? Weve already seen the Soviet Union abandon it. China is abandoning it. In practice, a few rule and oppress the masses keeping them in poverty. Taxes go way up, and productivity goes way down, etc. People are basically selfish and dont work for the good of society. Its only those in leadership, with all the privileges, who tell everyone else how wonderful Marxism, Communism or Socialism is. The early church had a form of communism. They had a type of wealth re-distribution where those who had more than they needed shared with other churches who were in need. That system only worked because the early church had changed hearts and the love of God in their lives. It is the nature of man, the heart that is corrupt and needs what Jesus said to be born again. Education will never touch that or improve it. No, I'm pretty sure you're missing the point. To start, I never said education makes people good... Education will advance us as a people. That doesn't mean we'll all be good people. It just means we'll become more advanced as a whole and hopefully work past things like religion, that hold no scientific base to them. Communism? Socialism? Wtf? How did you get on this path? (tho I enjoy the comment that socialism is always bad, unless it is for Jesus... Because God...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 Yes Cal, being smarter and learning more is evil and should be avoided. Liberal elitists and their education. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 I don't get how people think that becoming more educated, or less religious, means being more immoral in some way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blowe Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 I'm not religious and I am in a university. Does that make me evil? Yes? Cool. Actually, my moral compass is solid and I think I'm a pretty friendly and respectful guy even if we may disagree. Here's what I would be interested in reading because your guys banter and ignoring of others just to get your own point across has become extremely boring: Christians of this board, make a compelling argument that Christianity is correct without using the bible as a source. Because if the bible makes you correct then why is the Koran incorrect? (Besides the appalling nature of some of the savage things the Koran teaches) And before I get labeled as a libtard let's be clear that my vote consistently goes to the right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 I don't get how people think that becoming more educated, or less religious, means being more immoral in some way. You didn't know that all astronauts are just waiting to murder someone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted May 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 Wait, what? I don't believe in the stories in an old book so I have no faith or hope? I hope we can get to a point where religion is not a major part of society. I have faith that, as we become more intelligent as a whole, we'll get there. I will take my hope and faith over what you just listed. Knowledge does not always translate into wisdom. What do you mean as we get more intelligent we'll get there? The technology is great but the nature of man has not evolved through knowledge. People today are excatly like they were in bible times but with cell phones and lap taps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 I will take my hope and faith over what you just listed. Knowledge does not always translate into wisdom. What do you mean as we get more intelligent we'll get there? The technology is great but the nature of man has not evolved through knowledge. People today are excatly like they were in bible times but with cell phones and lap taps. Wowza. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 I will take my hope and faith over what you just listed. Knowledge does not always translate into wisdom. What do you mean as we get more intelligent we'll get there? The technology is great but the nature of man has not evolved through knowledge. People today are excatly like they were in bible times but with cell phones and lap taps. Reeeeaaaallllllyyyy? Still waiting for that time table. Also, for the Koran and its teachings being 'brutal' lets not forget the Old Testament does have its moment that aren't shining examples of how to NOT be brutal. Cal - please don't lump me in with other atheists. I carry a certain degree of faith, however much like anything else I apply logic and critical thinking to avoid full indoctrination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted May 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 Reeeeaaaallllllyyyy? Still waiting for that time table. Also, for the Koran and its teachings being 'brutal' lets not forget the Old Testament does have its moment that aren't shining examples of how to NOT be brutal. Cal - please don't lump me in with other atheists. I carry a certain degree of faith, however much like anything else I apply logic and critical thinking to avoid full indoctrination. I posted a link to a site with 50 signs we are living in the end times. if you can't see it pray about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 I will take my hope and faith over what you just listed. Knowledge does not always translate into wisdom. What do you mean as we get more intelligent we'll get there? The technology is great but the nature of man has not evolved through knowledge. People today are excatly like they were in bible times but with cell phones and lap taps. Ummmm.... Not quite. For one we understand the Earth isn't 6,000 years old. Ancient man didn't understand why the sun disappeared every night, so they used religion to explain it. Our "modern" religions are just a step up. We eventually learned why the sun disappears, what causes a strong harvest, etc, so we shunned and laughed at these ancient religions. Modern man is now getting that same type of grasp on much more complex issues (evolution, creation of the earth, the universe, etc) and we will take the same path with these modern religions. Someone today won't worship a Norse god because he has a basic understanding of the world. What will happen as our understanding grows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted May 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 I'm not religious and I am in a university. Does that make me evil? Yes? Cool. Actually, my moral compass is solid and I think I'm a pretty friendly and respectful guy even if we may disagree. Here's what I would be interested in reading because your guys banter and ignoring of others just to get your own point across has become extremely boring: Christians of this board, make a compelling argument that Christianity is correct without using the bible as a source. Because if the bible makes you correct then why is the Koran incorrect? (Besides the appalling nature of some of the savage things the Koran teaches) And before I get labeled as a libtard let's be clear that my vote consistently goes to the right. I found this on the net which dealt with logic that I thought was interesting: https://carm.org/logic-apologetics This is one that I knew I was doing but didn't know how to avoid it. I have never studied the bible to debate it, I just accept it. All my arguments would come from the bible. http://www.gotquestions.org/circular-reasoning.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted May 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 Ummmm.... Not quite. For one we understand the Earth isn't 6,000 years old. Ancient man didn't understand why the sun disappeared every night, so they used religion to explain it. Our "modern" religions are just a step up. We eventually learned why the sun disappears, what causes a strong harvest, etc, so we shunned and laughed at these ancient religions. Modern man is now getting that same type of grasp on much more complex issues (evolution, creation of the earth, the universe, etc) and we will take the same path with these modern religions. Someone today won't worship a Norse god because he has a basic understanding of the world. What will happen as our understanding grows? The bottom line for me is this: If I am right I have lived the best life possible and I go on to be with the Lord either at death or when He returns. I would not change a thing. If I am wrong I still have lived the best life possible and I would not change a thing. Either way I win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 The bottom line for me is this: If I am right I have lived the best life possible and I go on to be with the Lord either at death or when He returns. I would not change a thing. If I am wrong I still have lived the best life possible and I would not change a thing. Either way I win. Investing into nonsense my whole life would make me a little upset in hindsight if I was wrong. But that is only me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 The bottom line for me is this: If I am right I have lived the best life possible and I go on to be with the Lord either at death or when He returns. I would not change a thing. If I am wrong I still have lived the best life possible and I would not change a thing. Either way I win. That's great, and I hope you are happy either way, and I'm sure you will be. Personally, I'm sure that as long as someone leads a good life, a loving, just god would accept them either way and you'll end up in the same situation. If any god is not loving or just, I wouldn't be too happy about worshipping it. But all that's irrelevant, people can believe what they want to believe. Just, leave anything that requires faith at the door when dealing with things that affect everyone who doesn't share that faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 What they said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted May 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 Investing into nonsense my whole life would make me a little upset in hindsight if I was wrong. But that is only me. I have had a few miracles happen along the way. Let alone the lifestyle I got away from probably would have done me in long before now. The bible is full of wisdom I have used and it has always worked in daily life. I have seen prayer and faith in that old book change things. I have no doubt about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted May 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 That's great, and I hope you are happy either way, and I'm sure you will be. Personally, I'm sure that as long as someone leads a good life, a loving, just god would accept them either way and you'll end up in the same situation. If any god is not loving or just, I wouldn't be too happy about worshipping it. But all that's irrelevant, people can believe what they want to believe. Just, leave anything that requires faith at the door when dealing with things that affect everyone who doesn't share that faith. God is loving and just. That is why He sent His Son. Christians are called to share their faith. That is all I am doing. I know many Christians today who are grateful someone once reached out to them with the gospel (good news) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 God is loving and just. That is why He sent His Son. Then believing or not believing is irrelevant as long as we're good people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 https://youtube.com/_-agl0pOQfs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted May 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 Then believing or not believing is irrelevant as long as we're good people? Jesus said you must be born again. There is only one way to be born again, Romans 10:9,10. I won't type the scripture as it won't hurt you to look it up. It does not matter what your church denomination is what matters is are you born again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 Jesus said you must be born again. There is only one way to be born again, Romans 10:9,10. I won't type the scripture as it won't hurt you to look it up. It does not matter what your church denomination is what matters is are you born again? So, it's compulsory to believe in god and jesus to enter heaven? Because, there are presumably people still alive today who have no concept of any abrahamic religion. A thousand years ago, there were probably many many more who didn't. Would a loving and just god create people, then give them no chance to enter heaven? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted May 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 So, it's compulsory to believe in god and jesus to enter heaven? Because, there are presumably people still alive today who have no concept of any abrahamic religion. A thousand years ago, there were probably many many more who didn't. Would a loving and just god create people, then give them no chance to enter heaven? This is a good article that deals with that: http://www.letusreason.org/Apolo17.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 This is a good article that deals with that: http://www.letusreason.org/Apolo17.htm I'm struggling to find a response in there that isn't basically "fuck 'em, they should just know" - care to summarise a different angle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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