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NOW...the trade is done....


Mudfly

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I know this is risky....and with a Johnny thread already going, I probably shouldnt start this one.....but since I have openly committed to believing that Gilbert will overcome his rookie year and bust out as a top flight CB.....and the fact that the draft is over.....why not review??...amazed it took this long.... ;)

 

So, its not been said yet.....but the Watkins Trade is now complete and no longer a "future" prospect......

 

Final tally...

 

Buffalo gets Sammy Watkins ....

 

Browns get Justin Gilbert - Cameron Erving - Ibraheim Cambell

 

My vote?.......I d take our 3 everyday of the week, especially on Sundays......slam dunk BROWNS!

 

and away we gooooooooooooooooo...............

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Buffalo...did they get to the playoffs? NO.

 

No magic twanger for the bills.

 

I'll say the trade was a big WIN for the Browns this year.

 

There is no way Watkins was a dramatic impact player like

the Browns are going to be getting with their picks.

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In addition to all the talent we added, it seems no one considers the price Buff paid....so I did a fun little exercise and reversed it....having the Browns making that same move to see how our team would evolve with the same type of trade ....so, "IF" we traded last years and this years firsts(as Buff did) for a WR(as Buff did), then we'd have a Watkins.......but no Gilbert, Shelton, Erving or Campbell....

 

And, yes, I know it's not real(unless your in Buff)....it's just an exercise....but, call me silly, I think MOST fans would be kinda pissed right about now #understatement?

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^Agree. I'll have a much stronger opinion this time next year.

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Sammy Watkins now with a bad Hip in football, I just hope the kid can show his talent he had at Clemson..(Except on us of course)

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I don't think it is even a question that Watkins is much better than Gilbert at this point in time. Bacon

*************************************

Well, great college wr vs great college db - the db has a harder job in the nfl, and Watkins had a

rib injury in preseason, then reinjured it.....

 

The Browns needed to be a complete team, this last draft did that. Okay, except they don't have a superstar

qb...whatever. I don't see Buffalo as being a far better team after the trade

 

It's just a far greater impact on the Browns, than Buffalo, and it's early.

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In addition to all the talent we added, it seems no one considers the price Buff paid....so I did a fun little exercise and reversed it....having the Browns making that same move to see how our team would evolve with the same type of trade ....so, "IF" we traded last years and this years firsts(as Buff did) for a WR(as Buff did), then we'd have a Watkins.......but no Gilbert, Shelton, Erving or Campbell....

 

And, yes, I know it's not real(unless your in Buff)....it's just an exercise....but, call me silly, I think MOST fans would be kinda pissed right about now #understatement?

 

Shelton we "earned" on our own so he cannot be part of the math. But I'd still take 3 healthy over one not so healthy any day plus Tuesday.

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Shelton we "earned" on our own so he cannot be part of the math. But I'd still take 3 healthy over one not so healthy any day plus Tuesday.

The scenario is the Browns trading two firsts for a WR. the Shelton pick would've been the second first rounder surrendered. The 4-1 math checks out.
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I know this is risky....and with a Johnny thread already going, I probably shouldnt start this one.....but since I have openly committed to believing that Gilbert will overcome his rookie year and bust out as a top flight CB.....and the fact that the draft is over.....why not review??...amazed it took this long.... ;)

 

So, its not been said yet.....but the Watkins Trade is now complete and no longer a "future" prospect......

 

Final tally...

 

Buffalo gets Sammy Watkins ....

 

Browns get Justin Gilbert - Cameron Erving - Ibraheim Cambell

 

My vote?.......I d take our 3 everyday of the week, especially on Sundays......slam dunk BROWNS!

 

and away we gooooooooooooooooo...............

 

Nice!

 

I'm a big history buff old enough to remember trading Paul Warfield to Miami so we could move up to #3 overall to draft Purdue QB Mike Phipps. Just when the solution to Larry Csonka, Mercury Morris and Jim Kiick on the ground was cheating a Safety up in run support - another former Purdue QB (and Earl Morral) could now bury that over the top with a HOF caliber WR. Gridiron chess made easy for Don Shula.

 

Where did that leave us with our 1st round QB? He just needs experience and help. And we went skipping record on that until some QB that was told not to even bother thinking his arm was worthy of the NFL as a 13th round prospect depicted. In a division where Mel Blount could undress WRs down field like it was a hockey fight - many weighed whether or not to even remember the name Brian Sipe here. The Browns spent a lot of time square pegging Mike Phipps into around hole and it was always the same Poseiden Adventure. Sipe eventually got a chance with the same teammates Phipps always led to a stop sign. Guess what? He's the only League MVP I've seen on this franchise. Pocket presence? You bet. Improvise? Pulled more rabbits out of a hat than Houdini. Confidence and poise under pressure? The volume of late game comebacks gave us our first group of Kardiac Kids regardless of how the first 58 minutes went some Sundays. What else? For having such a weak arm, he averaged over 4000 yards a season over a 3 year stretch when that was unheard of back in BC (Before Cellphones). That was long before the NFL added rules to baby passing games and promote more scoring. Arm Strength? Sorry, he didn't have Brandon Weeden's/Derek Anderson's bionic arm - just the elite vision both those guys wished they had. If that vision is good enough, I've seen it overcome arm strengths in question in the 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s, etc. People often confuse slow reading QBs with weak arms, which can come into play with inexperienced QBs.

 

Where does all that leave us today with the young QBs we've invested in? If Manziel continues to shoot himself in the foot like an accurate sniper (hasn't missed yet) - Connor Shaw did NOT look too bad in his first start against a playoff defense. Like Sipe, his biggest question mark is arm strength. Now it's just a question of CAN he read progressions quick enough to get the throws there fast enough? And, will he get his arm stronger with a couple years of NFL strength and conditioning in him? Steve Spurrier has been known to hang his QBs out to dry in some pretty unsound protection schemes. That means they have to throw off a speed read or he gives them a timing pattern to an area of the field of a specified drop. If one is thinking Danny Wuerffel, Shaw has some damn good foot speed and quickness to make his improvise a little more NFL applicable. What intrigues me most about Shaw was his TD to INT ratio of 24:1 his last year at South Carolina. That can work pretty freakin good with a nice running game here.

 

I'm still hoping Johnny Blutarsky Jr hasn't completely killed Johnny Football just like I'm still hoping to see a fat guy in a red suit on a sled flying in the sky once a year. It wouldn't suck if there's still that QB that went into Nick Saban's house and OWNED it against a National Champion. Either way, I think fate has the right young guy here - while Pettine is the right guy in charge to let it play out without any premature knee jerk. The decision to bring McCown here with a strong running game that can provide plenty of 3rd and short situations doesn't suck either.

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Cocaine? :) The main thing Phipps lacked was leadership... which Sipe brought in spades. The contrast could not have been more stark.

 

 

As for the trade... as others said, still too early, but looking good.

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Nice!

 

I'm a big history buff old enough to remember trading Paul Warfield to Miami so we could move up to #3 overall to draft Purdue QB Mike Phipps. Just when the solution to Larry Csonka, Mercury Morris and Jim Kiick on the ground was cheating a Safety up in run support - another former Purdue QB (and Earl Morral) could now bury that over the top with a HOF caliber WR. Gridiron chess made easy for Don Shula.

 

Where did that leave us with our 1st round QB? He just needs experience and help. And we went skipping record on that until some QB that was told not to even bother thinking his arm was worthy of the NFL as a 13th round prospect depicted. In a division where Mel Blount could undress WRs down field like it was a hockey fight - many weighed whether or not to even remember the name Brian Sipe here. The Browns spent a lot of time square pegging Mike Phipps into around hole and it was always the same Poseiden Adventure. Sipe eventually got a chance with the same teammates Phipps always led to a stop sign. Guess what? He's the only League MVP I've seen on this franchise. Pocket presence? You bet. Improvise? Pulled more rabbits out of a hat than Houdini. Confidence and poise under pressure? The volume of late game comebacks gave us our first group of Kardiac Kids regardless of how the first 58 minutes went some Sundays. What else? For having such a weak arm, he averaged over 4000 yards a season over a 3 year stretch when that was unheard of back in BC (Before Cellphones). That was long before the NFL added rules to baby passing games and promote more scoring. Arm Strength? Sorry, he didn't have Brandon Weeden's/Derek Anderson's bionic arm - just the elite vision both those guys wished they had. If that vision is good enough, I've seen it overcome arm strengths in question in the 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s, etc. People often confuse slow reading QBs with weak arms, which can come into play with inexperienced QBs.

 

Where does all that leave us today with the young QBs we've invested in? If Manziel continues to shoot himself in the foot like an accurate sniper (hasn't missed yet) - Connor Shaw did NOT look too bad in his first start against a playoff defense. Like Sipe, his biggest question mark is arm strength. Now it's just a question of CAN he read progressions quick enough to get the throws there fast enough? And, will he get his arm stronger with a couple years of NFL strength and conditioning in him? Steve Spurrier has been known to hang his QBs out to dry in some pretty unsound protection schemes. That means they have to throw off a speed read or he gives them a timing pattern to an area of the field of a specified drop. If one is thinking Danny Wuerffel, Shaw has some damn good foot speed and quickness to make his improvise a little more NFL applicable. What intrigues me most about Shaw was his TD to INT ratio of 24:1 his last year at South Carolina. That can work pretty freakin good with a nice running game here.

 

I'm still hoping Johnny Blutarsky Jr hasn't completely killed Johnny Football just like I'm still hoping to see a fat guy in a red suit on a sled flying in the sky once a year. It wouldn't suck if there's still that QB that went into Nick Saban's house and OWNED it against a National Champion. Either way, I think fate has the right young guy here - while Pettine is the right guy in charge to let it play out without any premature knee jerk. The decision to bring McCown here with a strong running game that can provide plenty of 3rd and short situations doesn't suck either.

I really like Connor Shaw too. What amazed me was how he played in the Ravens game and the poise he showed for someone with such little preparation going into that game. He didn't look like a 3rd string quarterback with little preparation. He impresses me as a smart quarterback who will only get better with game experience. Shaw did have some great stats at South Carolina and I give Farmer credit for bringing him to Cleveland. Brian Sipe comes to mind as well with the potential of someone like Shaw.

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Flugel ...you really have a way of taking me back....in a good way..... ;)

 

My Dad had season seats forever, so I grew up going to all the games with him and have some very sketchy memories from my very youngest days....the names I attatch to my earliest memories are Kelly, Phipps & Pruitt.....Dad LOVED Leroy Kelly, so he was my first football hero(hate to say it, but I think Dad liked him better than Brown)(partly cause he was mad JB hit the road)

 

BUT....THE one memory that really sticks with me was trading Warfield to draft Phipps....Oh man my Dad was SO pissed off.....In fact, I think he still is now....HA!

 

I was probably like 8 then(dont remember the year) and the draft or first pick meant nothing to me really.....but I learned fast cause Dad was on the warpath and never stopped talking about it.....and so I looked at Phipps and could only think 'that poor guy better be really good or my Dad might completely lose his mind"....funny times....

 

Similar thing happened when we drafted Charlie White(no trade involved)....by then I was in HS and totally was pumped up about the pick.....heisman winner, flashy runner, yada yada....and it was the first time Dad and I disagreed on football.....he hated the pick and said BUST!.....And I was like "you're crazy!!"......he's the best ever!......of course, it wasn't the case.....He gave us less than 1000 yds over 4 seasons and was finally cut. Dad had been right. The good part for Charlie was that he straightened himself up(cocaine) and went on to play for his old coach, John Robinson, who got a pro-bowl performance from Charlie before he was done.....a flash of what "could have been"...if only......anyhoo....Im ramblin now.....

 

But yer right....Phipps was a tough nut to swallow.....but was easily forgotten once the FO redeemed themselves with the 13th? round pick of one Mr. Brian Sipe......

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Nice!

 

I'm a big history buff old enough to remember trading Paul Warfield to Miami so we could move up to #3 overall to draft Purdue QB Mike Phipps. Just when the solution to Larry Csonka, Mercury Morris and Jim Kiick on the ground was cheating a Safety up in run support - another former Purdue QB (and Earl Morral) could now bury that over the top with a HOF caliber WR. Gridiron chess made easy for Don Shula.

 

Where did that leave us with our 1st round QB? He just needs experience and help. And we went skipping record on that until some QB that was told not to even bother thinking his arm was worthy of the NFL as a 13th round prospect depicted. In a division where Mel Blount could undress WRs down field like it was a hockey fight - many weighed whether or not to even remember the name Brian Sipe here. The Browns spent a lot of time square pegging Mike Phipps into around hole and it was always the same Poseiden Adventure. Sipe eventually got a chance with the same teammates Phipps always led to a stop sign. Guess what? He's the only League MVP I've seen on this franchise. Pocket presence? You bet. Improvise? Pulled more rabbits out of a hat than Houdini. Confidence and poise under pressure? The volume of late game comebacks gave us our first group of Kardiac Kids regardless of how the first 58 minutes went some Sundays. What else? For having such a weak arm, he averaged over 4000 yards a season over a 3 year stretch when that was unheard of back in BC (Before Cellphones). That was long before the NFL added rules to baby passing games and promote more scoring. Arm Strength? Sorry, he didn't have Brandon Weeden's/Derek Anderson's bionic arm - just the elite vision both those guys wished they had. If that vision is good enough, I've seen it overcome arm strengths in question in the 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s, etc. People often confuse slow reading QBs with weak arms, which can come into play with inexperienced QBs.

 

Where does all that leave us today with the young QBs we've invested in? If Manziel continues to shoot himself in the foot like an accurate sniper (hasn't missed yet) - Connor Shaw did NOT look too bad in his first start against a playoff defense. Like Sipe, his biggest question mark is arm strength. Now it's just a question of CAN he read progressions quick enough to get the throws there fast enough? And, will he get his arm stronger with a couple years of NFL strength and conditioning in him? Steve Spurrier has been known to hang his QBs out to dry in some pretty unsound protection schemes. That means they have to throw off a speed read or he gives them a timing pattern to an area of the field of a specified drop. If one is thinking Danny Wuerffel, Shaw has some damn good foot speed and quickness to make his improvise a little more NFL applicable. What intrigues me most about Shaw was his TD to INT ratio of 24:1 his last year at South Carolina. That can work pretty freakin good with a nice running game here.

 

I'm still hoping Johnny Blutarsky Jr hasn't completely killed Johnny Football just like I'm still hoping to see a fat guy in a red suit on a sled flying in the sky once a year. It wouldn't suck if there's still that QB that went into Nick Saban's house and OWNED it against a National Champion. Either way, I think fate has the right young guy here - while Pettine is the right guy in charge to let it play out without any premature knee jerk. The decision to bring McCown here with a strong running game that can provide plenty of 3rd and short situations doesn't suck either.

 

 

Masterful post, Tom.. ''

 

Love it!.. Shaw just so intrigues Me.. And yes.. I'm old enough to remember the good old days of Sipe passin the ball to Ozzie,Rucker, Greg Pruitt and Dave Logan. And hell.. Calvin Hill was mighty fine catchin passes out of the backfield. But Shaw is the unknown quantity here. What he did in his short stint last season was pretty impressive. This also factors in why the Browns felt they didn't need to draft at the QB position. I gotta believe they see something in him. And I have seen enough to warrant seeing more..

 

I have always believed Our QB would come in an obscure way.. And it still feels like that to me...

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Cocaine? :) The main thing Phipps lacked was leadership... which Sipe brought in spades. The contrast could not have been more stark.

 

 

As for the trade... as others said, still too early, but looking good.

 

 

I don't have the answer for your latest case of twisted nipples. If I make you that nervous you should probably put me on ignore.

 

Anyway, in order to establish leadership cred with teammates - one must consistently possess the right inventory of intangibles/assets in his performance. I feel like I shared as many of those specifics as I could for Sipe. Consequently, I'm quite pleased with the feedback from those of our fans that don't share your sour grapes. :)

 

As for Phipps, he obviously wasn't going to be a credible leader with stats like these:

Year Team G GS Att Cmp Pct Yds YPA TD T% Int I% Lg Sack Rate

1970 Cleveland (NFL) -- -- 60 29 48.3 529 8.8 1 1.7 5 8.3 53t 7/86 49.9

1971 Cleveland (NFL) -- -- 47 13 27.7 179 3.8 1 2.1 4 8.5 39 0/0 14.6

1972 Cleveland (NFL) -- -- 305 144 47.2 1,994 6.5 13 4.3 16 5.2 80t 23/183 61.0

1973 Cleveland (NFL) -- -- 299 148 49.5 1,719 5.7 9 3.0 20 6.7 51t 44/362 49.4

1974 Cleveland (NFL) -- -- 256 117 45.7 1,384 5.4 9 3.5 17 6.6 55 33/280 46.7

1975 Cleveland (NFL) -- -- 313 162 51.8 1,749 5.6 4 1.3 19 6.1 48 28/261 47.5

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I know this is risky....and with a Johnny thread already going, I probably shouldnt start this one.....but since I have openly committed to believing that Gilbert will overcome his rookie year and bust out as a top flight CB.....and the fact that the draft is over.....why not review??...amazed it took this long.... ;)

 

So, its not been said yet.....but the Watkins Trade is now complete and no longer a "future" prospect......

 

Final tally...

 

Buffalo gets Sammy Watkins ....

 

Browns get Justin Gilbert - Cameron Erving - Ibraheim Cambell

 

My vote?.......I d take our 3 everyday of the week, especially on Sundays......slam dunk BROWNS!

 

and away we gooooooooooooooooo...............

Still too early. Looking promising though.

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Shaw just so intrigues Me.. And yes.. I have always believed Our QB would come in an obscure way.. And it still feels like that to me...

Now that you mention it like that....Kosar kind of came to us in an obscure way too.....considering "he" manipulated his draft status so he could play for the Browns.

 

If he hadn't chosen the Browns, then the Browns never could have chosen him....

 

So, the reality is that Otto Graham is the only 1st round QB we've ever chosen in the regular draft that actually worked out....

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I really like Connor Shaw too. What amazed me was how he played in the Ravens game and the poise he showed for someone with such little preparation going into that game. He didn't look like a 3rd string quarterback with little preparation. He impresses me as a smart quarterback who will only get better with game experience. Shaw did have some great stats at South Carolina and I give Farmer credit for bringing him to Cleveland. Brian Sipe comes to mind as well with the potential of someone like Shaw.

Connor Shaw could be the equivalent of Brian Sipe....in theory. Sipe was 13th round pick...330 overall. He would have been a UDFA in today's world.

Which is what Shaw was. Plus Sipe spent 2 years on the Taxi Squad....as Shaw could have done...but for the injuries.

So, you never know.

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I'll take Watkins, Mack, Mosley, Martin, Beckham, Evans, or just about anyone over Justin Gilbert.

 

We got anal fucked on that trade like we did in 2012. Those trades are meaningless if you squander them.

Too early to tell.....yet you have jumped to conclusion already.

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Now that you mention it like that....Kosar kind of came to us in an obscure way too.....considering "he" manipulated his draft status so he could play for the Browns.

 

He he hadn't chosen the Browns, then the Browns never could have chosen him....

 

So, the reality is that Otto Graham is the only 1st round QB we've ever chosen in the regular draft that actually worked out....

The Browns did not choose Otto Graham in the draft. He was a first round pick of the Lions in 1944....but he was in the military.....playing for Paul Brown at the Great Lakes Naval Academy....and after the war he chose to come play with PB and the Browns rather than go play for Detroit. He was a Free Agent...and signed with the competitor league.

You are pretty much right though....the Browns HAVE screwed the pooch with their 1st round QB picks. Bobby Garrett, Phipps, Couch, Quinn, Weeden,....and maybe JMZ?

So,,,,really, NONE of them have worked out.

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The Browns did not choose Otto Graham in the draft. He was a first round pick of the Lions in 1944...So,,,,really, NONE of them have worked out.

Wow!.....I did not know that.....thanks for the correction...

 

So...yeah....Im really with Nickers now....and I guess the odds say he's right too.....

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I'll take Watkins, Mack, Mosley, Martin, Beckham, Evans, or just about anyone over Justin Gilbert.

 

We got anal fucked on that trade like we did in 2012. Those trades are meaningless if you squander them.

 

That was an entertaining way of putting it; and I understand some of your frustration.

 

However, his overall value wasn't just from being a corner. Mike Mayock called him the best return man in the draft, which he got the chance to do 0% of the time. As a result, we used much lesser talents to return punts/kickoffs for the entire 2014 season.

 

Think back to our Jax game that wasn't going well for us. What put that game on FUBAR rather than potential suck it out mode was changing the punt returner in the second half to somebody we hadn't used yet (Poyer), who proceeded to play Santa Claus and misjudge the football right into the hands of Jax for first and goal from inside our 10 yard line. Just 1 KO or punt return for a TD that day means Blake Bortles has to beat us instead of Cleveland taking care of that for Blake.

 

In any of the games we had second half leads or tie scores with Baltimore, Pitt, Carolina, Buffalo, Baltimore II, or Indy - just 1 STs return for a score changes everything that day. We just kept a scoring weapon benched. Think back to Eric Metcalf being drafted up in round 1. His ability to return kicks for TDs is a BIG reason we were the last AFC team to beat Buffalo in a playoff game before they won 4 straight AFC Championships. His 2 punt returns for TDs vrs Pittsburgh was the reason we could beat that rival on a day our offense was about as forgettable that day as our offense was against Jax in 2014. Then again, watching Kevin Mack make Greg Lloyd wake up to smelling salts ranks up there with any any of our memories vrs Pittsburgh. Who was the knucklehead spitting in Lloyd's face to get physical before the TKO? Oh yeah, a former BACKUP LBer in Cleveland named Bill Cowher.

 

If we never used Eric in our return game, guess what fans would have thought of his overall 1st round draft value? The same thing you're thinking about Gilbert today.

 

Pettine didn't leave me with a lot of doubts about his ability to coach. The Gilbert situation seemed like an exception to that rule especially when our alternatives to returning punts/kicks were head scratchers. If he wasn't even outplaying K'Wuan Williams at corner, I can't say that I understand the reluctance to use Gilbert in our return game. Returning kicks is the most instinctive role in terms of how much prep time it would have stolen from his role as a corner. A return man either reads the wall or he doesn't. It's a lot vision, instincts, speed and agility - that Gilbert has.

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I'll take Watkins, Mack, Mosley, Martin, Beckham, Evans, or just about anyone over Justin Gilbert.

 

We got anal fucked on that trade like we did in 2012. Those trades are meaningless if you squander them.

 

hilarious.

 

i think by the end of the year you'll have changed your mind.

 

oh and btw, it's funny how you omit others you had on your love list from last year's draft including manziel and borland.

 

one can't play and another quit.

 

as a matter of fact i'll wager our picks (4 mentioned above) will work out better as a whole for the browns than the other teams drafts work out for them.

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Now that you mention it like that....Kosar kind of came to us in an obscure way too.....considering "he" manipulated his draft status so he could play for the Browns.

 

If he hadn't chosen the Browns, then the Browns never could have chosen him....

 

So, the reality is that Otto Graham is the only 1st round QB we've ever chosen in the regular draft that actually worked out....

 

Exactly! And what specifically expedited Bernie's success? 2 RBs that gained over 1000 yards apiece plus a HOF TE = playoffs in Miami as a rookie QB. We had a 20-3 halftime lead over Miami back when Shula was the Head of the Rules Committee. In the 2nd half, we were still imposing our will on the ground - but there were a lot of flags that smelled fishier than Miami's mascot. Apparent first downs conversions were suddenly turning into 3rd and long scenarios that serial killed a few 2nd half drives...

 

In 1986, Lindy Infante was hired to be our OC. His priority was to change the number handoffs into more short passes to RBs. Therefore, our RBs combined for 123 receptions with 3rd down RB Herman Fontenot leading us with 47. While Shanny liked the ole fashioned quick pitches and laterals (that were proned to sloppiness/fumbles) - Infante preferred the swing passes/wheel routes to bury defenses drooling to blitz his Qb with 125 lb pound cleats. He was busting undisciplined zone transitions all over the league; and spreading out teams horizontally. And don't forget, Ozzie was a former All American WR that could still line up and exploit a defense like a WR better than he could probably ever block or help set an edge as a TE.

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