MLD Woody Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 Who is giving Germany a pass? The German pastor who wrote about doing nothing when the Nazis came after the Jews admitted he was wrong and what happened was because too many like him didn't speak out because the groups the Nazis were going after did not affect him and by the time it did there was nobody to come to his aid. The moral of that story is you stick up for justice no matter whose ox is getting gored because if you allow it you might be next on the agenda.Logic made the point good, non Christian countries have always existed.You seemed to be making the point that Japan did bad things in WW2 because they weren't Christian. Logic pointed out that Germany, a Christian nation, also did terrible things. I was just adding on to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 woodypeckerhead strikes again. Meanwhile, Einstein denies he was an atheist... http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/06/11/einsteins-personal-letters-give-insight-into-how-he-advised-his-children-how-he-believed-in-god/ He also said the belief in a personal God "is child like". He was an avowed agnostic just based on saying he doesn't understand fully everything about man and the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 Sure, Christians are children of God. That's an allegory. To what extent there are allegories in the Bible, I have never studied enough to know. But he was not using "child like" as a derogatory term. I choose to see the incredible, complex existence of our natural, biological world as not a fluke of a big bang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 I never was an atheist. Probably for the main reason that I could never stomach the notion that this human experience was the beginning and end of my consciousness. I always intrinsically knew that there was something more to me than this silly human expression. Suffice to say I was never a huge fan of humanity, ever. I can remember being as young as 5-6 years old having the realization this was bullshit. The hows and why's escaped me at the time. I would say that experience has kept you from being an atheist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 Sure, Christians are children of God. That's an allegory. To what extent there are allegories in the Bible, I have never studied enough to know. But he was not using "child like" as a derogatory term. I choose to see the incredible, complex existence of our natural, biological world as not a fluke of a big bang. That is fine to feel that way so long as you aren't trying to project pity on others for not believing in your personal savior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 Also, Einstein wasn't referring to it in the context of having a child like sense of wonderment. ""It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously."- Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 Logic made the point good, non Christian countries have always existed. You seemed to be making the point that Japan did bad things in WW2 because they weren't Christian. Logic pointed out that Germany, a Christian nation, also did terrible things. I was just adding on to that. You see evil atrocities on a large scale in non Christian countries on a much greater scale. It can happen in a western Christian country like Germany in WW2 although Hitler and his henchmen were as far away from being a Christian as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 Also, Einstein wasn't referring to it in the context of having a child like sense of wonderment. ""It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously."- Einstein Einstein believed in God but not a personal God. "In developing the theory of relativity, Einstein realized that the equations led to the conclusion that the universe had a beginning. He didn't like the idea of a beginning, because he thought one would have to conclude that the universe was created by God. So, he added a cosmological constant to the equation to attempt to get rid of the beginning. He said this was one of the worst mistakes of his life.Einstein became a deist - a believer in an impersonal creator God. Albert Einstein received instruction in both Christianity (at a Roman Catholic school) and Judaism (his family of origin). When interviewed by the Saturday Evening Post in 1929, Einstein was asked what he thought of Christianity. "To what extent are you influenced by Christianity?" "As a child I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene." "Have you read Emil Ludwig’s book on Jesus?" "Emil Ludwig’s Jesus is shallow. Jesus is too colossal for the pen of phrasemongers, however artful. No man can dispose of Christianity with a bon mot!" "You accept the historical existence of Jesus?" "Unquestionably! No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life."7 So, although Einstein was not a Christian, he had great respect for Jesus, and recognized that He was an amazing figure in history. So, what was the reason Einstein rejected the existence of a personal God? Einstein recognized the remarkable design and order of the cosmos, but could not reconcile those characteristics with the evil and suffering he found in human existence. How could an all-powerful God allow the suffering that exists on earth? Einstein's failure to understand the motives of God are the result of his incorrect assumption that God intended this universe as His ultimate perfect creation. Einstein could not get past the moral problems that are present in our universe. He assumed, as most atheists do, that a personal God would only create a universe which is both good morally and perfect physically. Where Einstein erred was in that thinking that there was a god who designed the universe, but designed it in such as way as to allow evil without a purpose. If the universe were designed and it included evil, then there must have been a purpose for that evil. However, according to Christianity, the purpose of the universe is not to be morally or physically perfect, but to provide a place where spiritual creatures can choose to love or reject God - to live with Him forever in a new, perfect universe, or reject Him and live apart from Him for eternity. It would not be possible to make this choice in a universe in which all moral choices are restricted to only good ones. Einstein didn't seem to understand that one could not choose between good and bad if bad did not exist. It's amazing that such a brilliant man could not understand such a simple logical principle. Albert Einstein was not a Christian or even a theist (one who believes in a personal God), probably because he failed to understand why evil existed. These days, those who fail to understand the purpose of evil not only reject the concept of a personal God, but also reject the concept of God's existence altogether. If you are an agnostic or atheist, my goal for you would be to recognize what Albert Einstein understood about the universe - that its amazing design demands the existence of a creator God. Then, go beyond Einstein's faulty understanding of the purpose of the universe and consider the Christian explanation for the purpose of human life and why evil must exist in this world. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/einstein.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 Einstein said he believed in "Spinoza's god" to be exact. I can see the interest in that outlook on a higher being but I choose to believe that we will eventually have it all figured out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legacy Fan Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 Einstein said he believed in "Spinoza's god" to be exact. I can see the interest in that outlook on a higher being but I choose to believe that we will eventually have it all figured out.Please don't take this as me calling you naive, but I'm not holding my breath. We can't even overcome evil - complex shit like the order & design is quite out of reach, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 Please don't take this as me calling you naive, but I'm not holding my breath. We can't even overcome evil - complex shit like the order & design is quite out of reach, imo. I guess I am an eternal optimist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legacy Fan Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 Godspeed.... Errr, good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 Godspeed.... Errr, good luck. Haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 Please don't take this as me calling you naive, but I'm not holding my breath. We can't even overcome evil - complex shit like the order & design is quite out of reach, imo. I wonder what kind of complex shit mankind thought we'd never understand 200 years ago... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 Einstein believed in God but not a personal God. "In developing the theory of relativity, Einstein realized that the equations led to the conclusion that the universe had a beginning. He didn't like the idea of a beginning, because he thought one would have to conclude that the universe was created by God. So, he added a cosmological constant to the equation to attempt to get rid of the beginning. He said this was one of the worst mistakes of his life.Einstein became a deist - a believer in an impersonal creator God. Albert Einstein received instruction in both Christianity (at a Roman Catholic school) and Judaism (his family of origin). When interviewed by the Saturday Evening Post in 1929, Einstein was asked what he thought of Christianity. "To what extent are you influenced by Christianity?" "As a child I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene." "Have you read Emil Ludwigs book on Jesus?" "Emil Ludwigs Jesus is shallow. Jesus is too colossal for the pen of phrasemongers, however artful. No man can dispose of Christianity with a bon mot!" "You accept the historical existence of Jesus?" "Unquestionably! No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life."7 So, although Einstein was not a Christian, he had great respect for Jesus, and recognized that He was an amazing figure in history. So, what was the reason Einstein rejected the existence of a personal God? Einstein recognized the remarkable design and order of the cosmos, but could not reconcile those characteristics with the evil and suffering he found in human existence. How could an all-powerful God allow the suffering that exists on earth? Einstein's failure to understand the motives of God are the result of his incorrect assumption that God intended this universe as His ultimate perfect creation. Einstein could not get past the moral problems that are present in our universe. He assumed, as most atheists do, that a personal God would only create a universe which is both good morally and perfect physically. Where Einstein erred was in that thinking that there was a god who designed the universe, but designed it in such as way as to allow evil without a purpose. If the universe were designed and it included evil, then there must have been a purpose for that evil. However, according to Christianity, the purpose of the universe is not to be morally or physically perfect, but to provide a place where spiritual creatures can choose to love or reject God - to live with Him forever in a new, perfect universe, or reject Him and live apart from Him for eternity. It would not be possible to make this choice in a universe in which all moral choices are restricted to only good ones. Einstein didn't seem to understand that one could not choose between good and bad if bad did not exist. It's amazing that such a brilliant man could not understand such a simple logical principle. Albert Einstein was not a Christian or even a theist (one who believes in a personal God), probably because he failed to understand why evil existed. These days, those who fail to understand the purpose of evil not only reject the concept of a personal God, but also reject the concept of God's existence altogether. If you are an agnostic or atheist, my goal for you would be to recognize what Albert Einstein understood about the universe - that its amazing design demands the existence of a creator God. Then, go beyond Einstein's faulty understanding of the purpose of the universe and consider the Christian explanation for the purpose of human life and why evil must exist in this world. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/einstein.html What I got from this was "Look! Einstein believed in a creator, and he's crazy smart. If he believes everyone should." Then later "Be smarter than Einstein. Go past his mistake and realize the Christian god is the one true god." How can you have it both ways? (and I will still respond to your numbered list later. Been very busy st work. In the plant now...joy) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legacy Fan Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 I wonder what kind of complex shit mankind thought we'd never understand 200 years ago...The same stuff we still don't (the order & design). Not talking about iPhones & penicillin here Woodrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 http://gawker.com/5978464/louisiana-senator-wants-to-know-if-e-coli-could-evolve-into-a-human Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 What I got from this was "Look! Einstein believed in a creator, and he's crazy smart. If he believes everyone should." Then later "Be smarter than Einstein. Go past his mistake and realize the Christian god is the one true god." How can you have it both ways? (and I will still respond to your numbered list later. Been very busy st work. In the plant now...joy) You can make a very good case logically for the existence of God and I am speaking outside of any religion. Einstein saw this with his research. I like knowing we have a personal God myself. The bible is a living word with layers of meanings. You can read a scripture verse for decades and suddenly see something you had never seen before out of that verse. Here is one example: The first miracle Jesus did was turning the water into wine at the wedding feast. When they drank the wine He created out of the water they were amazed that they had saved the best wine for last. God has saved the best for last (new heavens and new earth) and I believe that was the message and reason Jesus did that miracle. I think He had a more important mission than to cater a wedding. No matter what we go through in this life the message of the cross is to keep the faith, better things are in store for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 What is your "very good case logically" for the existence of god? And if you like believing in personal god, that's fine, but there is no proof of that either. Of course scripture can be interpreted differently after decades. As our understanding of the world grows religious scripture will be interpreted differently by some to fit our new understanding. That's the beauty of the verses being so vague. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 http://gawker.com/5978464/louisiana-senator-wants-to-know-if-e-coli-could-evolve-into-a-human Hahaha. That's awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 What is your "very good case logically" for the existence of god? And if you like believing in personal god, that's fine, but there is no proof of that either. Of course scripture can be interpreted differently after decades. As our understanding of the world grows religious scripture will be interpreted differently by some to fit our new understanding. That's the beauty of the verses being so vague. Here is a logical argument on the existence of God: 1. Something exists. 2. Nothing does not produce something. 3. Something must have always existed. 4. The universe has not always existed ...then a conclusion can be validly drawn from these premises. 5. There must be an eternal power beyond the universe that caused the universe to come into existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 And that eternal power is our lord and savior Peter Pan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 And that eternal power is our lord and savior Peter Pan. Woody asked for a logical argument for the existence of God and my point was outside of any religion the argument for God could be made logically. The point was not defining God but as to existence of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 Here is a logical argument on the existence of God: 1. Something exists. 2. Nothing does not produce something. 3. Something must have always existed. 4. The universe has not always existed ...then a conclusion can be validly drawn from these premises. 5. There must be an eternal power beyond the universe that caused the universe to come into existence. Nothing can produce a net of nothing. 0 = -1 + 1. How do you know our universe, its parent universe, or some greater cosmic field hasn't always existed? Why does that external power have to be a god? You can't really prove or disprove the general idea of a god. Science isn't really there yet, if it will ever be. Your "logic" argument does not really add any support to a god though. Either way, 99% of what you've said that myself and others have disagreed with has to do with your "personal", Christian god beliefs, and the lack of proof for that. Which we've tried to point out.n Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 Please don't take this as me calling you naive, but I'm not holding my breath. We can't even overcome evil - complex shit like the order & design is quite out of reach, imo. It actually isn't as hard as it seems. "Some" people had it figured out thousands of years ago, well before the old testament. If you read up on what the human "ego" really is and what people were saying about it long long ago...it starts to become more clear. What's a mystery is how the ego has overtaken us so thoroughly. The ego is vastly more complex than just simple arrogance which is what we've come to associate the word ego with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 of course negative one doesn't really exist in a real world situation, does it? WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 Nothing can produce a net of nothing. 0 = -1 + 1. 0+0=0...0x0=0..............0=-1+1....100=-100+101.....500=-500+501...are you making a proper comparison? Not believing even using math is an illustration of something physical coming into being out of nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 The point being missed in all these debates is that most of us have a gut instinct that "more" exists beyond this place in some shape or form we can't fathom. However, humans have made it sport to make shit up since pretty much we began this whole thing....and then try to hold our made up shit over other people. I see this genetically inherited behavior in virtually every single religious person I have "ever" met. They simply cannot be comfortable in their own faith. They "have" to have other people around them who believe in the same unknowable and unproveable narratives about what happens to us when we die. So much so that they will become violent, aggressive, accusative etc, etc, against any people who hold differing views. And in doing so most often go completely perpendicular to their own made up doctrines. Then the sneaky double speak comes out about oh this was justifiable and that was a direct order from God and who are you to question the will of god that we so clearly understand blah blah blah. ^^^When this is all said and done, that last paragraph was the sum total of the human experience. How fucking sad is that? We're gonna have to go "home" having written that piece of shit story? That was our grand novel in this universe? To fuck each other silly over made up bullshit? Utterly shameful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 Put others ahead of yourselves, love your neighbor as yourself, blessed are the peacemakers, a new commandment I give you to love one another, God is love and he that dwells in love dwells in God, love is the fulfillment of the law, no greater love than to lay your life down for the brethren, ....I could go on and on (and on and on) with the teachings of Jesus and New testament teachings that speak of a better way to live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 Put others ahead of yourselves, love your neighbor as yourself, blessed are the peacemakers, a new commandment I give you to love one another, God is love and he that dwells in love dwells in God, love is the fulfillment of the law, no greater love than to lay your life down for the brethren, ....I could go on and on (and on and on) with the teachings of Jesus and New testament teachings that speak of a better way to live. You wouldn't get many arguments from me on the general goodness of NT teachings. When it comes to the "fulfilling" the old law stuff though that's horseshit. The NT is a "clear" deviation from the OT. They just couldn't bring themselves to admit that the OT was a load of moosecrap so the wrote in stuff like Jesus saying i'm here to fulfill the old laws. If he was indeed real he absolutely did not continue the old laws, he rewrote them...which is why they strung him up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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