Clevfan4life Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 I've been saying for the last 2-3 years this our most talented edge guy. We're such a better team with 4 down lineman and him being one of the DE's. Even though he was still doing an alright job as the 5 tech DE last year, his talents are really wasted as a DL in a 3-4. He shouldn't be the guy fighting off a whole lot of double teams. He should be lined up against the tackle. We'd have such a better rotation throughout the whole front too. I think we get Kruger too tired throughout the game by standing him up and playing him kind of like a weak side backer. I saw a little bit of year one Kruger today on some snaps when he had his hand in the ground, problem is he got tired and then started coming off the line slow. Our DL rotation could be Meder, Shelton, Starks, Hughes, D. Bryant. Our DE rotation could consist of A. Bryant, Kruger, Solomon, Orchard, Mingo. Both Bryants can be moved around through the whole line as depth if some injury occurred...Mingo could be moved to the LB'ing corp if there was a matchup there....we just need to have most of these aforementioned guys on the field more together. I feel like our current scheme is slightly nerfing us even though we had a good game today. I think our edges aren't getting the rotation they need cause it looks like they get tired and something bounces big time to the outside. That's my only explanation for some of the glaring edge collapses today. But we shored up the interior for sure that was a good job out of someone. Not sure if it was a scheme tweak or not, but someone ought to do an analysis on the game tape to see why interior runs were for the most part stuffed today. Back to Armonty though, guy has serious pass rush skills. Best hand fighter on our team, only Desmond matches up with him. Would love to see packages with Shelton and Meder in the interior and the Bryants lined up as DE's. I think we'd be seeing more consistent pressure with that front than any line since the team came back to Cleveland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comeonman Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Agreed. Would love to see that four man front. Good post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opal312 Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Really good post! Do you have any input with the coaching staff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kvoethe Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 + 1 someone should forward this to pettine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted September 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 + 1 someone should forward this to pettine well, if I grew out a goatee I could pass as a convincing impersonator of his. Then I could sneak into some team meetings maybe. DC would be running base 4-3's all day next week and Pettine would walk up to Oneil and say when did you decide this? lols Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 PFF gave AB 3 sacks yesterday.....nice start! And, speaking of LB's....looks like Craig Robertson wants his job back from Kirksey..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 PFF gave AB 3 sacks yesterday.....nice start! And, speaking of LB's....looks like Craig Robertson wants his job back from Kirksey..... Kirksey blowing up that screen to Douglas though...pretty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted September 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 PFF gave AB 3 sacks yesterday.....nice start! And, speaking of LB's....looks like Craig Robertson wants his job back from Kirksey..... I see no reason why Robertson and Kirksey are mutually exclusive on this team. There should be a constant rotation of those guys. And frankly i'd love to see a base 4-3 with Dansby, Kirksey and Robertson in there all at the same time with Mingo coming in for specific cover duties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 I see no reason why Robertson and Kirksey are mutually exclusive on this team. There should be a constant rotation of those guys. And frankly i'd love to see a base 4-3 with Dansby, Kirksey and Robertson in there all at the same time with Mingo coming in for specific cover duties. Can we change you to 'Clevefan4-3life'? Seriously though, Robertson's best season to date was his first, running out of Dick Juaron's 4-3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Seriously though, Robertson's best season to date was his first, running out of Dick Juaron's 4-3. Id debate that.....for sure.... He was not good in 2012 and led the team in missed tackles(and was the 3rd from last rated player on the team)....and in 2013 he was just terrible(lowest rated player on the team)....2014 was his first year with a positive score.....ever..... And, now, so far(2 games in).....he is our top rated player on D..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Maybe I'm misremembering, but 2012 he went from UDFA to full time starter next to DQ in the 4-3. 2013 and the change from OLB to ILB he struggled, then last year he was decent splitting time with Kirksey. Either way, he's solid now. Something else I've been thinking - Mingo to ILB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Maybe I'm misremembering, but 2012 he went from UDFA to full time starter next to DQ in the 4-3. 2013 and the change from OLB to ILB he struggled, then last year he was decent splitting time with Kirksey. Either way, he's solid now. Something else I've been thinking - Mingo to ILB? Might be a good idea, he's got the coverage skills apparently. Maybe he could be a flex guy put him at OLB or ILB based on the scheme where you need a coverage LB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 He'd be a menace running free behind Shelton on blitzes...but does he have the smarts to take over from Dansby as 'QB of the D'? Or is Kirksey fully earmarked for that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 PFF gave AB 3 sacks yesterday.....nice start! And that was out of??? Likely one of the morphilicious 2-4 or 5 looks. Seems like we don't spend enough time in our base D to worry about its label... especially since it doesn't even look like a 3-4 half of the time. Even saw some unbalanced 4-3 looks yesterday... shifted into a couple IIRC. Cleve, I was so with you in past years, but can't get worked up about it anymore... sorry... I see no reason why Robertson and Kirksey are mutually exclusive on this team. And both were OLBs in past lives. I still do not see why they don't get a shot outside now. Undersized to take on the run? A bit, but their quicks might more than compensate. Maybe I'm misremembering, but 2012 he went from UDFA to full time starter next to DQ in the 4-3. 2013 and the change from OLB to ILB he struggled, then last year he was decent splitting time with Kirksey. Either way, he's solid now. Something else I've been thinking - Mingo to ILB? Kinda remembering the same plus Fort came in 2013 and bumped Robertson inside... maybe??? Mingo at ILB? Scares me vs. the run... not seeing the read/reaction outside, so how could he process the middle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted September 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 well here's my thing about the 4-3 with "our" current personnel. Mingo as an ILB in a 3-4? Not likely, but Mingo as a 4-3 OLB'er and we have something special imo. I was thinking of putting there before I saw what Denver did with Von Miller when they went back to the 4-3. Not sure what they're running this year, but the past year or so they had 4 downlineman with Miller roaming around the LOS...maybe blitz, maybe drop back....it's hell for an offensive line that is looking at 4 down lineman to have to also keep track of one of the elite pass rushers in the NFL. Mingo is never going to shine having to put his hand down, or even stand up rush, against tackles that are waiting for him. Offensive schemes are just too good now they know how to nerf a pure edge guy. That's why I like 4 down beasts that occupy the OL, and also take the shortest edge to the QB. This limits his ability to step up, so if he gets flushed he has to flush up and out.....possibly right into the waiting arms of the 5th rusher in the form of a blitzing LB'er, CB or Safety. What those bigger DE"s on the end also can do is set the edge and push their guy inward so that they can still disrupt the bounce but also are pinching the off guard lanes that have been burning us for awhile. With our current edges, if they guess to the inside they have to completely disengage and dive backwards a little...which a good RB will read and bounce right off that. That's what I thought I saw happen on a couple big running plays yesterday. No defense is perfect, there's always going to be weaknesses. I just see Krugers most productive year as having been at Blt where they used him strictly as a DE in their 4-3 packages. He's just going nowhere as 3-4 OLB'er. Remember our offensive lineman talking about what a load he was to block? Bet no o line talks like that about him now...if they did Petting wouldn't be standing him and moving him around trying to spring him into the backfield. We put 15 lbs of muscle back on him he starts to explode like a proper DE and probably gets his power edge rush back. If for matchups sake we wanna run the 3-4 for a game than we have the personnel for that too. I just want this bullshit to stop with 4 DL and Kruger standing up as the 5th guy. What in the all fuck is the point of that? That's not his game. Let Mingo do that. Your'e just tiring Kruger out by running him all over the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 And that was out of??? Likely one of the morphilicious 2-4 or 5 looks. Seems like we don't spend enough time in our base D to worry about its label... especially since it doesn't even look like a 3-4 half of the time. Even saw some unbalanced 4-3 looks yesterday... shifted into a couple IIRC. Kinda remembering the same plus Fort came in 2013 and bumped Robertson inside... maybe??? Not sure how he got em until I go back and rewatch.... On the 4-3 3-4 thing...if you remember at the end of last season, I tracked that and showed we used a 5-2 dime like package "most" of the time.....and had plenty of 3 man and 4 man line sets....so, Id say there is no "base set"....and if there is, its a 5-2 that looks a lot like a dime to me...... And you remember correctly(better than I did)....Robertson played Will his first season....and then moved inside for '13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted September 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Not sure how he got em until I go back and rewatch.... On the 4-3 3-4 thing...if you remember at the end of last season, I tracked that and showed we used a 5-2 dime like package "most" of the time.....and had plenty of 3 man and 4 man line sets....so, Id say there is no "base set"....and if there is, its a 5-2 that looks a lot like a dime to me...... And you remember correctly(better than I did)....Robertson played Will his first season....and then moved inside for '13 yeah those 5 man fronts are junk though cause they're incorporating mostly 3-4 personnel. I want both Bryants in the game consistently. Des you can move from DL to DE in a 4-3 seamlessly. But like I said we have other guys like Kruger and Solomon that can also play DE in a 4-3. Solomon can also play OLB'er in the 3-4 if we choose to show that. I'm just trying to figure out how we shore up our edges cause right now they're shit. That's why I think base fronts are important. If we can get ahead of teams so they have to throw more, than we can start showing some more exotic looks to free up guys to the QB. But I think we have to start coming out and running base 4-3 with the right personnel. And to me right now, that looks like the Bryants starting the game at DE with Kruger rotating in with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Not sure how he got em until I go back and rewatch.... On the 4-3 3-4 thing...if you remember at the end of last season, I tracked that and showed we used a 5-2 dime like package "most" of the time.....and had plenty of 3 man and 4 man line sets....so, Id say there is no "base set"....and if there is, its a 5-2 that looks a lot like a dime to me...... And you remember correctly(better than I did)....Robertson played Will his first season....and then moved inside for '13 Now that you mention it... I remember you doing that... I was referring to the look with two down in a 3-point and a mix of DBs and LBs standing around... with maybe 3 more up making a 5-2 look. Same thing? Maybe a dime-nickle hybrid... ... let's call it a "dickle"... ... or not... On my memory... obviously I had help from, Chris... but what I do distinctly remember is when they played Robertson in and Fort outside, I thought Horton(?) got it exactly backwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flugel Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Id debate that.....for sure.... He was not good in 2012 and led the team in missed tackles(and was the 3rd from last rated player on the team)....and in 2013 he was just terrible(lowest rated player on the team)....2014 was his first year with a positive score.....ever..... And, now, so far(2 games in).....he is our top rated player on D..... Me too Mud! I thought last year he played the best football I've seen from him. His first step instinct was way better than I had seen it whether we're talking getting to the right place at the right time in coverage or vrs the point of attack. If I had to pick a most improved Defensive Player on this team in 2014 - it was Craig Robertson. Looks like he's picking up right where he left off in 2014 in our first 2 games. The LBer I thought played his very best football in Jauron's 4-3 was D'Qwell Jackson in terms of where he made most of his tackles vrs the point of attack. Aside from how good Armonty looked bouncing back from a knee injury, I thought John Hughes played a pretty nice game inside yesterday as well as Randy Starks and Meder (loved his sack). Shelton was a beast. When they were collapsing the pocket into Mariota - that helped run Mariota right into the guys coming from the outside whether it was a DB like K'Wuan Williams blitzing or Armonty off the edge. Fun to watch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted September 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Bottom line is the Browns have to figure out a way to basically start Armonty. Like I said previously he's kind of wasted as a 5 tech 3-4 DE...can still do it but I want to see him against a tackles outside shoulder all day. Well not all day cause I want a good rotation in there but you guys get what i'm saying. I'm open to discussion on who the other edge should be, but I think there's no question that Armonty is our best pass outside pass rusher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Bryant played just shy of 70% of the snaps at the weekend http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2015/9/21/9364043/browns-week-2-defensive-snap-counts-vs-titans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted September 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 works for me, should have had him in more against the Jets too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Bottom line is the Browns have to figure out a way to basically start Armonty. Like I said previously he's kind of wasted as a 5 tech 3-4 DE...can still do it but I want to see him against a tackles outside shoulder all day. Well not all day cause I want a good rotation in there but you guys get what i'm saying. I'm open to discussion on who the other edge should be, but I think there's no question that Armonty is our best pass outside pass rusher. Looks like the Browns agree with you.....he has played 45 passing downs and rushed the QB 45 times......thats 100%..... Its him and Kruger pretty much as designated rushers.....they have combined to rush the passer 97 times in 2 games.... Those 97 rushes have produced 4 sacks, 3 hits and 6 hurries.....so getting to QB 14 times out of 97 attempts While 13 other players(6 linebackers, 3 safeties, 4 CBs) have all combined to rush the passer only 44 times...... Those 44 rushes produced 2 sacks, 1 hit and 2 hurries.....getting to QB 6 times out of 44.....(about the same).... Just some interesting numbers for those interested how we are using these guys.... And, no doubt, so far AB has been the best outside rusher.... Gotta say....not LB's, but Randy Starks and D Bryant seem to be creating good pressure too(lots of hurries and hits) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted September 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Does armonty have all 4 of those sacks? I don't remember krugs getting one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted September 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 And the way we rush Kruger, kind of those delayed stand up rushes where he tries to feel his way down the line for an opening...that's not gonna get the job done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Does armonty have all 4 of those sacks? I don't remember krugs getting one. No....PFF doesnt do 1/2 sacks(and thats where Im pulling #'s from).......though they do "reassign" sacks..... so they have AB with 45 rushes for 3 sacks, 1 hit and 1 hurry ........and Kruger with 52 rushes for 1 sack, 2 hits and 5 hurrys Plus, AB has more overall stops and tackles, yet has played 40 fewer snaps..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted September 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Plus, AB has more overall stops and tackles, yet has played 40 fewer snaps..... Oh no shit? not surprised though now that I think about it. Just kind of jarring I would imagine to see it on paper that our high priced starter is getting beat out by a guy that was the backup 5 tech last year. So AB rushes the passer better and is more useful in the run game. Why is Kruger starting again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Kruger was officially credited with a half sack vs. TN... Its (A.Bryant) and Kruger pretty much as designated rushers.....they have combined to rush the passer 97 times in 2 games. Those 97 rushes have produced 4 sacks, 3 hits and 6 hurries.....so getting to QB 14 times out of 97 attempts While 13 other players(6 linebackers, 3 safeties, 4 CBs) have all combined to rush the passer only 44 times. Those 44 rushes produced 2 sacks, 1 hit and 2 hurries.....getting to QB 6 times out of 44.....(about the same).... Couple of impressions/ questions I want to check... 1. The ratio of sacks to hits to hurries seem off. Seems like most teams, teams with strong pass rushes, they climb on the order of 1:2:4... Yes? 2. We've faced a total of 61 passes. So we are blitzing over 2/3rds of the time??? Or are the stats counting two blitzers on a single play as two blitzes??? Or are they counting our 4th lineman, Kruger, as a blitzer? 3. The effectiveness of our blitzes seems pretty weak at 6 of 44. And again the ratio seems off... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
htownbrown Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Film Breakdown: Armonty Bryant’s 2.5 sacks vs. TennesseePosted 1 hour ago Kevin Jones Staff Writer @Mr_KevinJones Facebook a a The former DE is making the transition to LB look easy To have success in the NFL, you have to be able to evolve. The best players on defense can adapt themselves at a moment’s notice like a chameleon. Armonty Bryant, 25, has done that to begin the 2015 season. In training camp, Cleveland converted its former defensive lineman into a budding outside linebacker and the smooth transition has been evident. The slender 6-foot-4,265-pounder rewarded the shrewd coaching staff by punching in 2.5 sacks against the Titans and bringing constant pressure throughout the afternoon. Why is the switch working so effectively for the Browns? At East Central Oklahoma, Bryant rushed the quarterback from the two-point stance. He’s reached back into his memory bank with ease. Bryant has been taking advantage of his wiry frame to get lower than offensive linemen, dip his shoulder and get around the edge quickly. Let’s dive into one of sacks to show No. 95’s growth. Situation: Titans ball, second quarter, first-and-10, at the Tennessee 39-yard line, Browns leading 14-0 Bryant has been in the backfield on multiple plays early in the game but has yet to make a big play. Even so, Tennessee shades two tight ends, Anthony Fasano and Chase Coffman, to the right side in hopes of slowing Bryant down. Bryant is fully expecting to get double-teamed by the tight ends – or at the very least chipped on his way to the quarterback. Side note: How many rookies are already commanding double-teams like Danny Shelton (green circle). Inexplicably, neither tight end touches Bryant. “I saw the tackle and the tight end talking before the snap and I think they miscommunicated,” Bryant said. “It was loud.” Now in his third NFL season, Bryant is athletic and tall enough to pass for an NBA small forward. He’s salivating at a one-on-one matchup with Titans rookie right tackle Jeremiah Poutasi. But before charging at quarterback Marcus Mariota, Bryant has a trick up his sleeve. Shuffling his feet two steps backward, Bryant leans his shoulder in, making Poutasi think he’s actually dropping in coverage. Bryant calls the advanced pass rushing technique Coffee House. “It’s like taking a little coffee break,” Bryant said. “You fake like your dropping and then, boom.” Poutasi blocks down on Jamie Meder, giving Bryant an HOV lane to go hunting in the backfield. This is Poutasi’s “oh shucks” moment. It’s too late. Bryant gobbles up Mariota and breaks down the relentless wall at a key point early in the game. “We just kept fighting, kept pushing, and it paid out,” Bryant said. As Mike Pettine always says, the big first down sack put Tennessee behind the sticks on second and third down. Christian Kirksey blew up the next screen pass for a loss and Mariota hit Dexter McCluster on a check-down pass well short of the first down. The difference on defense from Week 1 to Week 2 was the pass rush. Without it, the secondary gets left hung out to dry. With it, and with Bryant progressing at this rate, the Browns are a fortified front that can bewilder offenses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Good read... "The slender 6-foot-4,265-pounder... now in his third NFL season, Bryant is athletic and tall enough to pass for an NBA small forward." I wonder how good his hands are... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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