jiggins7919 Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 It's not secret that our team is getting worse, and each week we appear to be losing by more and more points. Mike Pettine has now lost 13-15 I believe, and it's not only the losses, but WHY we're losing that has many fans and analysts beyond concerned. Mike Pettine is a defensive coach that has a terrible defense. One of the biggest reasons for the failure of our franchise is the fact we start over every two years, and sometimes after one season. As a compromise to keeping SOME continuity, how many of you fans would be open to keeping Farmer and Pettine IF Haslam stipulated that Pettine had to bring in a new defensive coordinator? Regardless of what Pettine and O'Neil say, there is something very wrong with our defensive scheme. The players have said more than once that they feel they are not put into positions to succeed. For example, we're down to our second and third team defensive backs, yet O'Neil continued to play WAY too much Cover Zero (no safety help on deep ball). I forget the exact numbers, but I heard that against Cover Zero, Big Ben was basically perfect for a million yards and two deep touchdowns. Never mind the 140 yards or so in pass interference calls that all came against Cover Zero (I believe). Could we bring in a proven defensive coordinator to help turn things around quickly? If Haslam opens the check book, which he has done, and throws some big money at someone with a RECENTLY proven scheme...can our defense get better? That way we keep our head coach, we don't start all over, and we let Ray and Pettine continue to build together and learn from their mistakes. Does anyone have any solid candidates in mind for a quality DC? Sorry Mike, I know O'Neil is your boy, but he's in way over his head. In other words, he completely sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 I would qualify that. Farmer has to change his attitude about drafting skilled O players early or adios MF. Smurfs are great for getting long yardage, but absolute detriments in the red zone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickers Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Id just as well dump both idiots and start over,,, they clearly dont have it., Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Dick LeBeau.......at 77 years old he would be better than the pile of shit we have running the defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Could we bring in a proven defensive coordinator to help turn things around quickly? If Haslam opens the check book..... Does anyone have any solid candidates in mind for a quality DC? Reality is that there aren't just a bunch of "proven" coordinators just sitting around waiting for a call.....and if they are(unemployed), then maybe they aren't very good, right? The NFL has rigid tampering rules for Coaches, so you cant even "talk" to an employed coach unless his team says its ok....and most wont do that....the ONLY exception is if you are planning to promote an Asst to Head Coach....but that exception does NOT exist for lower level promotions(ala coordinator).... So, where exactly would we go to get these "proven, qualified" coordinators??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiggins7919 Posted November 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 I know, that's the thing...just where would these qualified coordinators come from? So you either get a washed up retread, or you take a gamble on an up and comer. Whatever it is, we have to make the move. Our entire scheme is flawed, and that's being pointed out to us on a regular basis. I heard or read somewhere that Carson Palmer "couldn't snap the ball fast enough" when he saw our Cover Zero defense, and that just goes to show you that nobody is afraid of what we do, and rightfully so. We obviously don't do Cover Zero all the time or anything, but that's just an example of teams exploiting what we do, and us not having an answer. It's been stated before, but does anyone remember the 3rd and long we had against the Bengals very early in the game? When O'Neil blitzed Campbell AND K'Waun Williams, which left Armonty Bryant covering Marvin Jones? Yeah...dumb. As far as who is available, we'll have to wait and see who gets fired after the season. There's always people that get cut loose, and the thing about looking for just a coordinator is they usually get cut along with the head coach, regardless of how their side of the ball performed. The more I think about it, the more this scenario just doesn't seem likely. I mean, defense is Pettine's baby, so basically he would be admitting that his entire scheme is a failure, and he doesn't know what he's talking about. Pretty tough to swallow, but in the face of losing his job, perhaps he could stomach it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 I know, that's the thing...just where would these qualified coordinators come from? So you either get a washed up retread, or you take a gamble on an up and comer. ... Our entire scheme is flawed, and that's being pointed out to us on a regular basis..... It's been stated before, but does anyone remember when O'Neil blitzed Campbell AND K'Waun Williams, which left Armonty Bryant covering Marvin Jones? Yeah...dumb. As far as who is available, we'll have to wait and see who gets fired after the season. defense is Pettine's baby, so basically he would be admitting that his entire scheme is a failure Washed up retreads and up and comers are not proven coordinators.....so, lets be clear about that......and change for the sake of change is a bad idea, when there is no "proven" answer available.... And I cant agree the "scheme" is flawed, just because a bunch of fans think it is....I can only agree that our guys aren't executing it nearly as well as the players in NY and BUFF did.....And, with the right people, it IS proven to work and is working right now in other cities...the scheme works.....with the right players.... The Armonty play(which Im already sick of hearing about) is an example of folks picking one play and using it over and over again to try to make some kind of a point about the scheme, when it was really just an opposing team exposing the mismatch(that exists on almost every play, if you know where to look)..... Look...teams play 11 on 11.....and if you go man to man, then every single player is on an island....including your CB's. If you give them help, say sending 2 safeties over the top like you suggest, then you've just left 2 large openings elsewhere that a good QB can exploit(ala Palmer)....so, put the safeties up top and watch them run all over us and din and dunk us to death...(then we can complain about run stopping and getting crushed by the screen)..... The real problem(on the Armonty play, for example) is that many of our players are one dimensional(esp the LB's). They CANT cover, but its their job anyway. Shame on the coaches for asking these guys to do their jobs and not make a million mental errors while they're at it....we cant just offer help to every player who is out manned....so, on any given play....with any team....on any sunday.....there are mismatches on the field and it's upto the players to win their matches and each team to win their mismatch... So....on that particular blitz....we sent a Safety and a corner, hoping to create a mismatch, and therefore, get a sack...thats what blitzes are(sending an extra man or 2).....and that left Armonty to cover.....and the other team saw that and won the mismatch.....had we gotten the sack?, no one would be talking about that coverage or even be aware of it ftm....and that happens on every blitz. so lets not keep cherry picking the one we got burned on and calling it a bad scheme...its just a freaking blitz, for christ sake.. So.....I guess Id accept another D coordinator, if a QUALITY one is available....but guess what, even with a new Coordinator, we still have the same players being asked to execute and win their matches......and Armonty and Kruger will STILL be incapable of pass coverage(something that all LB's are expected to do).....and blitz packages will still require extra bodies and leave a glaring weakness somewhere on the field.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargograw Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Jeremy Pruitt at Georgia will probably be gone once his boss is fired this year. He is only a couple years removed from a national championship as a DC and is from Saban's tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiggins7919 Posted November 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Washed up retreads and up and comers are not proven coordinators.....so, lets be clear about that......and change for the sake of change is a bad idea, when there is no "proven" answer available.... And I cant agree the "scheme" is flawed, just because a bunch of fans think it is....I can only agree that our guys aren't executing it nearly as well as the players in NY and BUFF did.....And, with the right people, it IS proven to work and is working right now in other cities...the scheme works.....with the right players.... The Armonty play(which Im already sick of hearing about) is an example of folks picking one play and using it over and over again to try to make some kind of a point about the scheme, when it was really just an opposing team exposing the mismatch(that exists on almost every play, if you know where to look)..... Look...teams play 11 on 11.....and if you go man to man, then every single player is on an island....including your CB's. If you give them help, say sending 2 safeties over the top like you suggest, then you've just left 2 large openings elsewhere that a good QB can exploit(ala Palmer)....so, put the safeties up top and watch them run all over us and din and dunk us to death...(then we can complain about run stopping and getting crushed by the screen)..... The real problem(on the Armonty play, for example) is that many of our players are one dimensional(esp the LB's). They CANT cover, but its their job anyway. Shame on the coaches for asking these guys to do their jobs and not make a million mental errors while they're at it....we cant just offer help to every player who is out manned....so, on any given play....with any team....on any sunday.....there are mismatches on the field and it's upto the players to win their matches and each team to win their mismatch... So....on that particular blitz....we sent a Safety and a corner, hoping to create a mismatch, and therefore, get a sack...thats what blitzes are(sending an extra man or 2).....and that left Armonty to cover.....and the other team saw that and won the mismatch.....had we gotten the sack?, no one would be talking about that coverage or even be aware of it ftm....and that happens on every blitz. so lets not keep cherry picking the one we got burned on and calling it a bad scheme...its just a freaking blitz, for christ sake.. So.....I guess Id accept another D coordinator, if a QUALITY one is available....but guess what, even with a new Coordinator, we still have the same players being asked to execute and win their matches......and Armonty and Kruger will STILL be incapable of pass coverage(something that all LB's are expected to do).....and blitz packages will still require extra bodies and leave a glaring weakness somewhere on the field.... I see what you're saying, as there will often be times players are asked to be on islands, or be in coverage the opponent doesn't expect, but we aren't a good blitzing team. In fact, we may be the worst blitzing team I can remember seeing in a while. And sure, if we sacked the QB, we wouldn't be having this conversation, but we have 16 (or so) sacks this season, and I believe 7 or 8 of those came against a rookie QB. We have games where we basically don't even TOUCH the opposition's QB, and that's very frustrating. And your point about having the same players next year isn't something I totally agree with. We had very similar personnel last season, in fact, almost ALL the same, and we were much better. Yeah, we were awful against the run, but we were pretty good against the pass. So if we have the same players in the same system, why aren't they playing at the same level? Maybe the injuries, but probably because opponents have scouted us to death, and know exactly what the weaknesses are. We aren't adjusting, we aren't playing with discipline, and we simply aren't making plays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob806 Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Washed up retreads and up and comers are not proven coordinators.....so, lets be clear about that......and change for the sake of change is a bad idea, when there is no "proven" answer available.... That's my fear. Anybody we hire is most likely a rookie coach, and we've had plenty of that with Shurmer, Crennell, & Pettine. Some guys need time to "get it," as a head coaching gig is such an upgrade from coordinator. While I'm not crazy about the slide under Pettine, bringing in another newbie to learn on the job and bring in another philosophy will almost certainly take time to gel. I think most of us don't want to hear and wait that it will take more time to "turn it around." Pettine was 7-4, beating the Steelers and Bengals along the way. I'm willing to give him more time despite this season being a disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opal312 Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 We keep missing on draft picks while teams drafting behind are having more success. Why was Gilbert inactive and a 6th round pick playing at Pittsburgh? Farmer needs to draft better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargograw Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 We keep missing on draft picks while teams drafting behind are having more success. Why was Gilbert inactive and a 6th round pick playing at Pittsburgh? Farmer needs to draft better. Or Pettine needs to activate better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 I would qualify that. Farmer has to change his attitude about drafting skilled O players early or adios MF. Smurfs are great for getting long yardage, but absolute detriments in the red zone. I watched PG's video of Gordon's highlights- and it about made me ill. In the Red Zone, with Smurfs, you're taking away jump balls to the corner out of the game plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Dawg Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 The Armonty play(which Im already sick of hearing about) is an example of folks picking one play and using it over and over again to try to make some kind of a point about the scheme, when it was really just an opposing team exposing the mismatch(that exists on almost every play, if you know where to look) It sure does. I was watching the Raiders/Steelers game and during the replay of an Amari Cooper TD, the guy in coverage? None other than Mr Facemask himself, LB Arthur Moats. I can also recall Cleveland LB Scott Fujita unsuccessfully trying to to cover RB Reggie Bush. The mismatches happen frequently, the only time it gets brought to the forefront is when a big play is involved. Good post Mud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richiswhere Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Dick LeBeau.......at 77 years old he would be better than the pile of shit we have running the defense. Ummm 77 year old Dick Lebeau in his first year with the Titans has taken their defense from 27th in 2014 to 5th in 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gumby73 Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Get Gregg Williams the DC out of St. Louis Rams before they move west. I am so tired of watching his D whack people like they did us. If he gets the right people in the right places he has HC potential. His price cant be bad & knows how to build a Defensive Front that beats the man in front of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Dawg Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Get Gregg Williams the DC out of St. Louis Rams before they move west. I am so tired of watching his D whack people like they did us. If he gets the right people in the right places he has HC potential. His price cant be bad & knows how to build a Defensive Front that beats the man in front of you. Having 4 first round draft picks on the DL helps too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opal312 Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 The Browns have had more,picks than the Rams. It's who they pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gumby73 Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Having 4 first round draft picks on the DL helps too. Williams no name DB's are taught & know how to whack & cover too. Williams did his job to get all 4 also. Shelton & Dez Bryant is a start. We yuck it up to stumble on a Bosa & a OLB our DB's may not have to cover to long at all. When the problem for 2 seasons has been we can't stop the run, Williams answer has always been Were going 4 up front & were coming after you. I welcome that change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browns149 Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 I would rather see Pettine stay then Farmer 4 1st round picks and none of them are impact players They said they wanted to build through the draft Farmer's drafts have been AWEFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Ummm 77 year old Dick Lebeau in his first year with the Titans has taken their defense from 27th in 2014 to 5th in 2015 and they're 2-8. so i guess they shoulda drafted some OL along the way huh? cuz mariota didn't have time to scratch his balls let alone throw any tonite......dumbass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 and they're 2-8. so i guess they shoulda drafted some OL along the way huh? cuz mariota didn't have time to scratch his balls let alone throw any tonite......dumbass. and he missed some wide open long passes when he did have time to look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiggins7919 Posted November 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 From what I heard on the Browns Radio Show, nobody from the "Rex Ryan Tree" is really having great defensive success. I mean, the Bills have a pretty good defense, but it's not what many people thought it would be. Mario Williams has voiced his displeasure with the system on multiple occasions, and it primarily has to do with him not being granted the ability to rush the QB as much as he wants to. Pettine's scheme is flawed, and the proof is in the pudding. We have an expensive defense with veteran free agents and high draft picks, yet we yield no results. We were awful against the run last year, and this year I believe we're somehow worse. But the question is, why were we so good against the pass last year, only to be DREADFUL this season? What has changed? Sure, we had some injuries, but what team doesn't? The most alarming part of all this failure, is the direction our team is going. We used to lose somewhat close games, and now we're just getting our collective asses whipped. Blowouts are not the norm in the NFL. You see a few each week, but seldom do you see one team get their ass handed to them on a platter multiple weeks in a row. NFL Insider Adam Caplan was on our radio show yesterday, and he was asked about Pettine's future. He said he's definitely on the hot seat, and "something has to change". He didn't give specific details, but he said that it's obvious something has to change due to how poorly the defense is playing. He didn't have any answers as to why we are so bad against the run, and he wasn't a fan of using DL to cover people. He talked about the "Rex Ryan Tree", and how nobody from that group is having a whole lot of defensive success. It was a very informative interview, and I recommend it. He didn't slam our Browns, but he didn't sugarcoat it either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiggins7919 Posted November 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 and he missed some wide open long passes when he did have time to look. Yeah he did, which is uncharacteristic of his play. His accuracy is generally awesome, but he missed Delanie Walker on a stop and go move that would've been huge. You don't get many opportunities in the NFL for big plays, and when they present themselves, you have to cash in or you lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingfooldoug Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 My one real hope is that the coaching staff is adapting to the cba limits on player practice(so stupid) time and the reg season games are an extended form of preseason in order to see what you do have and what may work. Most rookies do not just step in and make a difference. They usually need special high intensity training that doesn't seem to be allowed anymore. I don't figure the coaches to be stupid either. Young and inexperienced yes. I hope they learn by mistakes and will come together as a solid unit. If we don't give them at least 3 years to get the team to winning ways.... SQUARE ONE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiggins7919 Posted November 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 There's a big part of me that says "no matter what, Pettine and Farmer need a third year", as we've tried switching staff every year or two, and where has that gotten us? Perhaps they do need time to hone their craft, iron out the wrinkles, and work out the problems that have surfaced. We've been miserable for the better part of 17 years, what's another year of failure? But...I'd be lying if I said that another year of these two didn't terrify me as well. Mainly because of the DIRECTION we are going. In my eyes, the Browns were a team that might usually lose, but you knew they'd come to play and it would probably be a close game. Now, we're just getting our ass whipped, and the scores aren't close anymore. Could we be doing the franchise a disservice by keeping everyone around for another year? What really hurts is the fact we thought we were close last year. Hell, we were 7-4 and SOARING higher than we ever had. The wheels came off, we got zip from the QB position, and many people felt that we were a QB away from being competitive. All offseason, we heard about how we're going to stop the run, run the ball ourselves, "minimize the qb position", and play tough football. We constantly heard about our "elite OL", and our "elite secondary". What the hell happened?! Our secondary has been banged up, sure, but we've given up about 21 td's, and only picked off 6 passes! Not only can we not stop the run (aside from last week), but we can't get a run off before our back gets drilled 3 yards in the damn backfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingfooldoug Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 There's a big part of me that says "no matter what, Pettine and Farmer need a third year", as we've tried switching staff every year or two, and where has that gotten us? Perhaps they do need time to hone their craft, iron out the wrinkles, and work out the problems that have surfaced. We've been miserable for the better part of 17 years, what's another year of failure? But...I'd be lying if I said that another year of these two didn't terrify me as well. Mainly because of the DIRECTION we are going. In my eyes, the Browns were a team that might usually lose, but you knew they'd come to play and it would probably be a close game. Now, we're just getting our ass whipped, and the scores aren't close anymore. Could we be doing the franchise a disservice by keeping everyone around for another year? What really hurts is the fact we thought we were close last year. Hell, we were 7-4 and SOARING higher than we ever had. The wheels came off, we got zip from the QB position, and many people felt that we were a QB away from being competitive. All offseason, we heard about how we're going to stop the run, run the ball ourselves, "minimize the qb position", and play tough football. We constantly heard about our "elite OL", and our "elite secondary". What the hell happened?! Our secondary has been banged up, sure, but we've given up about 21 td's, and only picked off 6 passes! Not only can we not stop the run (aside from last week), but we can't get a run off before our back gets drilled 3 yards in the damn backfield. Check the 1st 3 or 4 years when noll took over the stealers. His wins were pretty scarce then. Is it the same thing? wish I knew that but I do know that there is only one way to find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 I see what you're saying, as there will often be times players are asked to be on islands, or be in coverage the opponent doesn't expect, but we aren't a good blitzing team. In fact, we may be the worst blitzing team I can remember seeing in a while. And sure, if we sacked the QB, we wouldn't be having this conversation, but we have 16 (or so) sacks this season, and I believe 7 or 8 of those came against a rookie QB. We have games where we basically don't even TOUCH the opposition's QB, and that's very frustrating. So if we have the same players in the same system, why aren't they playing at the same level? Maybe the injuries, but probably because opponents have scouted us to death, and know exactly what the weaknesses are. We aren't adjusting, we aren't playing with discipline, and we simply aren't making plays. So your point is what???......that we shouldnt blitz or rush the QB, maybe just stop that stuff all together?......BRILLIANT In your words....we have the same players & same system that we had success with last year.....YET, when they dont play well, the obvious answer is scrap the system?.....didnt you just get done saying it worked last year?...... Last year we had the #1 pass defense in the league.....and only 8 games later you all say scrap the system....fire be the coach....yada yada yada.... Think about this.....we also had 3 out 4 DB's in the pro-bowl, right?......Remember our pro-bowl safety, the one who led the league in interceptions?....he blew out a knee and has not returned to form....PLUS, he's missed a bunch of games with new injuries......Remember our pro-bowl CB Joe Haden.....mr lock down....he's missed almost the entire season with injuries and has played VERY poorly when in.......Donte Whitner also has played injured and missed games....as well as Jordon Poyer, who is SUPPOSED to be backing these guys up...... so when you take 3 Pro bowlers out of the equation, does it make sense to blame the poor play on the COACH??? ...or his system??? And, I will add, that the #1 pass defense(which we had last year) REALLY adds to our ability to rush the passer. If no one is open, then the QB holds the ball a bit longer, which allows our average pass rush guys to get to the QB.....BUT, if the pass defense breaks down, then any decent QB is gonna get the ball out faster.....completing more passes, while diminishing the pass rush and number of sacks.... Plus, when you have the best group of DB's in league, but your team is one of the worst at stopping the run.....do you sent your extra help to the DB's or do you load up to stop the run?......cause we cant do both.... So, with all this in mind....isnt it POSSIBLE.....that the poor play of Joe Haden and Tashau Gipson, coupled with the extensive DB injury list, has MORE to do with the defensive breakdowns, than the coaching or the system?......because THAT is what has changed from last year...the personnel and their individual performances....(not the scheme or approach) And what about Kruger, Mingo and the rest of the guys crying because they are being used differently or asked to cover?......to me, different means "adjustments".....So, I ask you AGAIN....is it possible we are asking people to cover(who usually dont), as a way to get help to where it's needed?.....isnt switching guys around, a way to "try" to stop the bleeding or adjust to cover the weaknesses??.......and if that is so, why say they aren;t making adjustments when they OBVIOUSLY are???? I think if our DB's were up to snuff (ala last year), we'd be seeing MUCH better defense.....and a MUCH better pass rush....and the "scheme" wouldnt even be in the discussion..... The team needs better talent....more versatile talent.....and better execution....Without those 3 things, you can scheme till the cows come home and it wont make any difference.....zip nada none... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiggins7919 Posted November 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Mudfly...not sure why you get so animated. The NFL is all about making adjustments. So if our talent was adequate two years ago, just what has changed? Is it that other teams are now emulating the teams that had success against us, and now we are struggling to combat that? While not stellar, it seemed that our pass rush was better last year, so why did that change? Yes, we've had injuries, but that happens to most teams every year. So is it Farmer's responsibility to have the team better stocked, or is it Pettine's fault for not preparing them better? There is something wrong with our scheme, especially against the run. It's been talked about on several articles, as our players have said things like "we aren't sure what to do", and "imagine trying to define mud." Our players aren't always sure what gap to attack, and when there is indecision, the players aren't attacking as quickly as they should be. I see your point about the injuries to our pass defense. Losing Haden, Whitner, Williams, and Gipson is a lot for any team to shoulder, but why is the run defense STILL so awful? If it was awful last year, worse this year, and our players are about the same...is it just because we lack talent, or is there a way to schematically make it better? For example, Pettine was groomed by Rex Ryan. Ryan has about the most expensive defensive line in the league, and it's full of talent, yet they give up 24 points a game. I understand that the DL is one component of a defense, but Rex runs a similar system, and they're giving up a bunch of points. So isn't that proof that maybe it's time to make SOME kind of philosophical change on defense? You can't blame the coach for injuries, that's just ridiculous. What really worries me is that the defense is seriously flawed, but nobody really seems to know WHY. Pettine himself has said he's scratching his head in regard to the chunk plays and the poor play. There really isn't one thing you can point to and say, "AHA! This is the problem we must fix!" The players are confused and unsure of assignments. They have said they don't feel like they are put into position to succeed. I believe on any losing team there will be some degree of bellyaching, and it's much easier to blame the coach than to look in the mirror and say "It's my fault." I'm not saying we need to reinvent the wheel or anything, but the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Maybe you're right...maybe it IS a severe talent deficiency, but the NFL, more than any other professional sport, promotes parity. Our talent simply can't be that far off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Mudfly...not sure why you get so animated. Animated?.....not sure what that means, as Ive always thought I was one of the more reasonable posters.....just trying to respondto your many many long long comments.....unless, of course you dont want discussion or counter points and would rather just be blah blah blah.... The NFL is all about making adjustments. So if our talent was adequate two years ago, just what has changed? Im certainly not convinced it was adequate.....we were 4-12 if you remember...... While not stellar, it seemed that our pass rush was better last year, so why did that change? I just gave you a very convincing argument on why it changed(at least my perspective)....no need for me to do it again..... Yes, we've had injuries, but that happens to most teams every year. Yes it does. And when teams lose their better players, they usually experience diminished results and performance from those who fill in. We are no different. So is it Farmer's responsibility to have the team better stocked, or is it Pettine's fault for not preparing them better? Yes it is. And he gets 7 picks a year, plus whatever FA's are out there. So, in 2 years, he has replaced about 40 out of 53 players in an attempt to get better. But, I dont know of many GM's that can completely flip a less than average roster into a great roster in 2 seasons..... . There is something wrong with our scheme, especially against the run. It's been talked about on several articles, as our players have said things like "we aren't sure what to do", and "imagine trying to define mud." Our players aren't always sure what gap to attack, and when there is indecision, the players aren't attacking as quickly as they should be. You mean our LB's, dont you?...If they dont know where to go, maybe they arent paying attention. They sure didnt say this last year and the only ones saying it now are the guys who cant get it done....basically Kruger & Mingo. Watch them play....its not scheme thats causing them to miss tackle after tackle and, basically, get owned on every play....its talent, execution and effort.... I see your point about the injuries to our pass defense. Losing Haden, Whitner, Williams, and Gipson is a lot for any team to shoulder, but why is the run defense STILL so awful? If it was awful last year, worse this year, and our players are about the same...is it just because we lack talent, or is there a way to schematically make it better? Here's an example....our DB's are hurting and the back ups(Bademosi, Poyer, Desir, etc) are getting beat. So.....we gotta adjust to get them help. That means a LB might have to cover....or a safety might stay back an extra couple of seconds....and that takes away from the rush defense. And that works both ways....we bring guys up(like we did last year) and it leaves the CB's alone(which you were complaining about in a previous post).....Technically, our run isnt worse this year(it's about the same actually), but we dont have the pass D we had last year.....and finally...YES...right now, it looks to me like we lack the talent to be a solid defense.....great LB's can cover, rush or play the run.......good LB's can do at least 2 of those things.....our LB's mostly do one thing....so they are exposed and not happy about it....so, a guy like Kruger, who only knows how to rush, is gonna complain that the coaches are putting him in position to fail, because they've asked him to play the run or cover a TE.....thats on Kruger, not the Coaches.... For example, Pettine was groomed by Rex Ryan. Ryan has about the most expensive defensive line in the league, and it's full of talent, yet they give up 24 points a game. I understand that the DL is one component of a defense, but Rex runs a similar system, and they're giving up a bunch of points. So isn't that proof that maybe it's time to make SOME kind of philosophical change on defense? Wait....what???.....because Pettine is from the Ryan tree and Ryans D isnt doing well this year, that is proof that Pettine needs to change his philosophy??.......thats a crazy argument....so, no....Ryans team isnt proof of anything here....2 separate unrelated entities.... You can't blame the coach for injuries, that's just ridiculous. What really worries me is that the defense is seriously flawed, but nobody really seems to know WHY. And you do?......and since no one knows, we'll just fire the DC and change the philosophy we've been successful with?.....again....you're not making much sense here(honestly)... Pettine himself has said he's scratching his head in regard to the chunk plays and the poor play. There really isn't one thing you can point to and say, "AHA! This is the problem we must fix!" Thats because it isnt one thing....and thats what Pettine has been saying. One game its the run D....another game its penalties.....we stop the run perfectly for 2 qtrs, then allow it to blow up in the third.....so every game, when they review film, its something new....someone missing their spot....someone getting a penalty....etc etc.....if it was just one thing, it would be fixed by now..... and it's much easier to blame the coach than to look in the mirror and say "It's my fault." There it is....and the guys belly aching only started recently....when THEIR play was being questioned....and unlike those players, Pettine is actually willing to stand up and say "I and WE have to get better"....but guys like Kruger aint saying that....and if they cant accept they need to play better and i they cant buy into the system, then how will that work out??? I'm not saying we need to reinvent the wheel or anything, but the definition of insanity is doing the same , thing over and over and expecting a different result. Again....I see us making adjustments.....but when we do, everyone starts crying why are we doing that??.... And if you have an extended history of success within a system, why would you change it and go to something you dont have faith in?.....when you do something over and over with other players and get GOOD results, then do you change it the second it doesnt work?.....or stick with what you know works until they get it right? Maybe you're right...maybe it IS a severe talent deficiency, but the NFL, more than any other professional sport, promotes parity. Ha...NFL promotes parity, which means all teams have equal talent?.......I dont think so.... Ill say it again....we need better players and we need our DB's back.....Armonty, Mingo & Kruger are not high caliber LB's and wouldnt even start on most other teams(and LB is the heart of any defense).....We also replaced 1/2 of our D line this year, which is a sign the FO doent think the talent was there either....they took a step in the right direction, but w/o help from the LB's, you cant stop the run....period....And if the LB's cant cover anyone either(w/o crying), then you cant stop the pass either.... So....like I said way way earlier......changing the DC and/or scheme probably will not get you much better results..... add some talent at LB and get our DB's back and things will change for the better.... And dump those guys who are bucking the system and pointing fingersbecause they are counter productive to what the team is trying to accomplish....if they aren't gonna buy into the system, then there is ZERO chance they will improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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