Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Farmer hasn't done a damn good thing as GM. After all - Bitonio, McCown, Shelton, Orchard, Duke, Crow, Gabriel, Hawkins etc. just walked here on their own. Damn that Dwayne Bowe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Pettine confirms in this article that TP is the 3rd string QB. http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/190268/browns-mike-pettine-no-sign-of-dissatisfaction-from-johnny-manziel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Farmer hasn't done a damn good thing as GM. After all - Bitonio, McCown, Shelton, Orchard, Duke, Crow, Gabriel, Hawkins etc. just walked here on their own. Damn that Dwayne Bowe. Or Justin Gilbert. Thought Johnny Juicer could be straightened out. Passed on Odell Beckham to get us Maybe Mayle. Is he waiting for Josh Gordon to bail him out? Let TJ Ward walk. Traded up to get Terrance West. Overall, I'll give him a C minus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 The winner was Old Ray. "Hi, I'm Ray Farmer and if the drafts in your house are as bad as mine in the NFL, you need to call my friends at Universal Windows Direct today." Clear winner... lol Farmer hasn't done a damn good thing as GM. After all - Bitonio, McCown, Shelton, Orchard, Duke, Crow, Gabriel, Hawkins etc. just walked here on their own. I'll give him Bito, but McCown and Shelton were easy calls. If they weren't, then I wouldn't have made them. As for the rest... would you want to stake your GM job on that average-at-best list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Clear winner... lol I'll give him Bito, but McCown and Shelton were easy calls. If they weren't, then I wouldn't have made them. As for the rest... would you want to stake your GM job on that average-at-best list? Yes. Average is how you build the bottom of your team up - which is the first step to rebuilding your franchise. You don't take a cellar dweller, throw three top guys on there, and expect them to be contenders. You raise the floor which allows you do swing for the fences on top talent here and there. We haven't been even close to a complete team in ages. But three average drafts, with three average free agency periods fields a team that is....average, something that we haven't been for a long time. Look at this roster compared to 2012's and tell me we're not loads better on paper. And a GM's job is just that - on paper. It's the coaching staff's job to turn paper into playoffs. You scout, you make deals, and you take the guys who seem to give you the best chance to win. And then you throw it to your coaches and let them run with it. The only overlap that should occur between coach and GM is determining the identity of your team. Pettine said he wanted a physical team that would play strong defense, run the ball, and bully other teams. So Farmer gets him a corner, gets him a guard, gets him a talented veteran LB, and gets him a talented veteran SS. Pettine fails with this and says our run d should be better but we have no inside talent, our Secondary should be better but Farmer's corner is a bust, we don't have a QB who can manage games and we should be able to run the ball better but we have no OL depth. So Farmer gets him a DT, a utility OL, an RB, a proven veteran CB, a proven veteran DL, and a veteran QB. Pettine is failing again and now it's "oh Farmer can't pick players...he should have taken a WR". He's taking the guys Pettine said he needed. A GM needs to be judged on two things - did he improve the team and, if yes, did he mortgage the future in doing so? Farmer passes both of those tests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Look at this roster compared to 2012's and tell me we're not loads better on paper. And a GM's job is just that - on paper. It's the coaching staff's job to turn paper into playoffs. You scout, you make deals, and you take the guys who seem to give you the best chance to win. And then you throw it to your coaches and let them run with it. The only overlap that should occur between coach and GM is determining the identity of your team. Pettine said he wanted a physical team that would play strong defense, run the ball, and bully other teams. So Farmer gets him a corner, gets him a guard, gets him a talented veteran LB, and gets him a talented veteran SS. Pettine fails with this and says our run d should be better but we have no inside talent, our Secondary should be better but Farmer's corner is a bust, we don't have a QB who can manage games and we should be able to run the ball better but we have no OL depth. So Farmer gets him a DT, a utility OL, an RB, a proven veteran CB, a proven veteran DL, and a veteran QB. Pettine is failing again and now it's "oh Farmer can't pick players...he should have taken a WR". He's taking the guys Pettine said he needed. A GM needs to be judged on two things - did he improve the team and, if yes, did he mortgage the future in doing so? Farmer passes both of those tests. Paper never won a game TC. The question was asked on WKNR today- just WHO has Farmer brought in that's going to be one of our building blocks for the future? Bitonio? Our future is a LG? I sort of can buy your argument the coaching is monumentally bad, but I see an o-line that finally got McCown put on IR, and can't open holes for crap. Or a defense that loaded 7-8 in the box against a no-name Ravens RB and the guy was still ripping off 10 yard gains. IMHO- that's not all on coaching- it's about TALENT. Or do you want to tell me JJ Watt or Clay Matthews would look like shit if they were playing for the Browns? Ray let guys like Ward, Sheard, and Rubin walk, sorry if I think Whitner and Dansby weren't exactly what I'd call upgrades. Brought in a washed up Bowe at an exorbitant price (that the rest of the league passed on), drafted a cb in the first round who can't beat out a journeyman like Bademosi. Brought in Turbin, only to cut him. Traded up to take West. BTW, did you notice Williams get toasted on MNF? No GM bats 1.000, But saying I'm building a foundation with 5-7th round picks and UFAs doesn't cut it. You occasionally have to hit home runs on your premium picks, or you're going to wind up like the Browns mired @ 2-9. In Pettine's defense- this team is currently such a mess, I doubt even guys like Paul Brown or Vince Lombardi could salvage what's left of this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargograw Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Wow. That last TCPO post was phenomenal (can't quote on this terrible work computer otherwise I would). Farmer has gotten the players Pettine wanted, with the exception of Johnny. Farmer should continue to be here. He's smarter than anyone in the organization and he will be a star in time. Gipper, he didn't do it in the NFL, but Tannehill made the conversion to WR in college for a team, and was well above average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Wow. That last TCPO post was phenomenal (can't quote on this terrible work computer otherwise I would). Farmer has gotten the players Pettine wanted, with the exception of Johnny. Farmer should continue to be here. He's smarter than anyone in the organization and he will be a star in time. Gipper, he didn't do it in the NFL, but Tannehill made the conversion to WR in college for a team, and was well above average. ? he may have gotten Pettine what he wanted- but did he make the right choices? You don't churn the roster just to churn it. I see a zero sum (or negative) sum game here. Bito and Duke are the few pluses. Is Sheldon any better right now than Rubin, who is starting for the Seahawks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 ? he may have gotten Pettine what he wanted- but did he make the right choices? You don't churn the roster just to churn it. I see a zero sum (or negative) sum game here. Bito and Duke are the few pluses. Is Sheldon any better right now than Rubin, who is starting for the Seahawks? You're complaining because our rookie's floor is the same as the vet we released's ceiling? I mean, call me crazy but that's exactly how drafting should work IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargograw Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 I'm not even sure Rubin's starting. Is that accurate? He certainly was not very good here last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gumby73 Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Rubin is starting in Seattle on DL & still loves Ben not throwing it over him with a pick this past week. is he starting over injury IDK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 He's started all 11 games so far according to nfl.com and has a comparable number of tackles to Shelton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargograw Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Gotcha, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 So Danny Shelton was a good move. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 So Danny Shelton was a good move. WSS Well, assuming Shelton is playing at his floor and will improve, yeah. Rubin we know is at his ceiling and it ain't high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Well sure Chris, I assume he will continue to improve from his rookie season. I assume most guys will improve with some continuity but we've never had any. I'd heard a statement from Josh McCown that he'd never played in the same offensive scheme two years in a row or something. Imagine if the poor bastard had been on any successful team that kept the same system year after year. He could actually be in Brady or Roethlisberger territory. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Sorry but it's statements from Farmer to the effect we don't waste high draft picks on WR's and his follow through with the likes of Mayle in the 4th that lead me to the conclusion he is a tool. Meanwhile what has happened to the teams who did take those stellar WR's in the 1st/2nd? I'll let the researchers do the math, but I already know the results. None are sitting 2-9 I guarantee. And none are the worst team in the NFL in the ground game because people actually do fear getting burned over the top when they stack against the run on teams with decent receivers. With that philosophy alone he fails the smell test. And if Pettine agrees with that, then put them both back in the tool shed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Paper never won a game TC. The question was asked on WKNR today- just WHO has Farmer brought in that's going to be one of our building blocks for the future? Bitonio? Our future is a LG? I sort of can buy your argument the coaching is monumentally bad, but I see an o-line that finally got McCown put on IR, and can't open holes for crap. Or a defense that loaded 7-8 in the box against a no-name Ravens RB and the guy was still ripping off 10 yard gains. IMHO- that's not all on coaching- it's about TALENT. Or do you want to tell me JJ Watt or Clay Matthews would look like shit if they were playing for the Browns? Ray let guys like Ward, Sheard, and Rubin walk, sorry if I think Whitner and Dansby weren't exactly what I'd call upgrades. Brought in a washed up Bowe at an exorbitant price (that the rest of the league passed on), drafted a cb in the first round who can't beat out a journeyman like Bademosi. Brought in Turbin, only to cut him. Traded up to take West. BTW, did you notice Williams get toasted on MNF? No GM bats 1.000, But saying I'm building a foundation with 5-7th round picks and UFAs doesn't cut it. You occasionally have to hit home runs on your premium picks, or you're going to wind up like the Browns mired @ 2-9. In Pettine's defense- this team is currently such a mess, I doubt even guys like Paul Brown or Vince Lombardi could salvage what's left of this season. Paper doesn't win games? Then the NFL should eradicate GM's, because their job is 100% paper. Who has Farmer brought in for the future? Well, Bitonio, Shelton, Erving, Manziel, Gilbert, Ekpre Olomu, Duke, Orchard, Crowell...for starters. What's funny is, if you go back to the time these guys were taken... nearly everyone here is shitting their pants over these acquisitions, saying they are smart picks, guys we need, etc. But then they look like garbage on the field, or don't even see the field and the tune changes. Now they were dumb picks by a stupid asshole who doesn't know anything about the NFL. With the exception of Manziel, nearly everyone here was fine with our first round picks when they happened. But now he's garbage because they aren't playing well? If there's an underperformance from a player, point the fingers at the coach, not the GM. Look at Williams, Dansby, Starks, and Whitner. These guys were capable veterans with recent Pro Bowls/ All Pro nominations under their belts. Then they come here and....all of a sudden they suck eggs? You're worried about our run production and think it's Farmer's fault? We have five linemen that were taken in the first 37 picks of the NFL Draft. Two of these linemen were stellar only a year ago and were consistently stellar throughout their careers. Did they just all of a sudden forget how to play? TP was cut and Turbin was taken when Famrer was suspended, then Turbin was released when Farmer came back. Now we have TP again. I'm not saying it's obvious what happened in that situation...but it should be pretty obvious. The only legitimate gripe anyone has is Dwayne Bowe...well, we needed to spend to meet the floor of the cap in the offseason. Bowe can't contribute if he doesn't see the field and guess who has final say on game day rosters? Hint: it's not Farmer. The fact that you can even try and make a case to defend Pettine is hilarious. Farmer has gotten Pettine the players he's asked for (especially with Gilbert who was supposedly 100% Pettine's guy) and Pettine has shit the bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Sorry but it's statements from Farmer to the effect we don't waste high draft picks on WR's and his follow through with the likes of Mayle in the 4th that lead me to the conclusion he is a tool. Meanwhile what has happened to the teams who did take those stellar WR's in the 1st/2nd? I'll let the researchers do the math, but I already know the results. None are sitting 2-9 I guarantee. And none are the worst team in the NFL in the ground game because people actually do fear getting burned over the top when they stack against the run on teams with decent receivers. With that philosophy alone he fails the smell test. And if Pettine agrees with that, then put them both back in the tool shed. But aren't we a top 10 receiving team? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 4 out of the top 5 WR's in this years draft did zippo.....zero....nada #1) Amarie Cooper had a decent season....exact same #'s as Travis Benjiman has, but with a better team & QB....and was not available to us anyway..... Kevin White, DeVante Parker and Breshard Perriman all missed the entire season with injuries.....and Jaelon Strong just isnt very good.... So....had we picked one of those "TOP 5" WR's with our first pick this year, he'd be sitting right now and we'd be wondering how they are healing from that surgery............ Year before?......yeah, we could have tapped Watkins or Evans, but both are just doing "ok", at best.....again, not lighting it up or really making a big difference for their teams......and, this year, Travis has outperformed both of these guys too.... Teams that just spent big on all the "star wr's" are Oak, Buff, TB, NO, NYG, CHI, MIA, BALT & TEX......and none of them realized a big offensive boost or got that much better.....most are still at the bottom, with us..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 That list of teams makes brutal reading. The only team that's taken a first round WR that I can remember the last couple of years that's doing well this year is Carolina...and Benjamin has been out all season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 That list of teams makes brutal reading. The only team that's taken a first round WR that I can remember the last couple of years that's doing well this year is Carolina...and Benjamin has been out all season. And I went back like 5 years and didnt find a single one that's made a big difference.....but I did see that only about 20% of the first rounders have played like first rounders......so, yeah, we can tap one of the "great ones"....then cross our fingers..... And, I honestly believe the odds are better than 20%, that JG will come back and play well...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargograw Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 His moves on receivers are certainly yet another credit to Farmer's resume. And if Pettine actually played Dwayme Bowe that fact might be even more clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 And I went back like 5 years and didnt find a single one that's made a big difference.....but I did see that only about 20% of the first rounders have played like first rounders......so, yeah, we can tap one of the "great ones"....then cross our fingers..... And, I honestly believe the odds are better than 20%, that JG will come back and play well...... Seems like good receivers, like running backs, can come from anywhere in the draft. For every OBJ, there's an Antonio Brown. For every Julio Jones, a TY Hilton, for every Mike Evans a Martavis Bryant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Lest we forget Josh Gordon lighting it up with Brandon Weeden. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 ...and Jason Campbell, and Brian Hoyer, and pretty much whoever we had back there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdl15 Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 I have to agree with TCPO on this one. Browns fans believe this mess can be fixed in 2-3 years. Well guess what it cant. I would die to have the browns be an "average" looking football team. Everyone keeps beating their chest demanding we find a qb that is going to lead us to the super bowl. Meanwhile we haven't had a RB that has tallied more than 40 yards in 6 straight games. Manziel fags kept calling McCown and Hoyer average like we are so sick and tired of all the "average" qbs walking into Berea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdl15 Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Gordon has to put a lot of work in. Even when he was top WR in league he was still one of the worst route runners out their Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Only in Cleveland could someone be excited about picking up a player no one else wanted, and we cut once already.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Only in Cleveland could someone be excited about picking up a player no one else wanted, and we cut once already.... And if we resign Josh Lenz, they might have a parade...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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