Haslam calls mtg with upper management tonight

[gftChris]

Mud, I've touched on that before with Montgomery and the missing OL coach, but I didn't realise it was so widespread.

 

That being said if I remember rightly, Joker Philips, our WR coach, had no experience, yet Benjamin's having a breakout year. More luck than judgement? Benjamin was always going to come good just needed time? Other?

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

he's still going to be bad, you've got to know that right? Do you think he would have fared any better out there at tackle against Michael Johnson? How bout Mario Williams? Those guys would pee on him just as much as Peko and Atkins did.

 

 

 

I think he would have fared SLIGHTLY better against a 267 lb. Michael Johnson, instead of a 305 lb. Geno Atkins or a 325 lb. Domata Peko. Erving's main weakness coming out of Florida State was that he didn't possess the lower body strength needed for an interior line position at the NFL level yet.

 

He's a rookie playing in a position he barely practiced at and is ill-suited for, going up against two of the better interior defensive linemen in the league. He would have had troubles anywhere you threw him, but throwing him at LG against Atkins and Peko and expecting anything other than struggles was just wishful thinking.

 

Would he have trouble with Mario Williams? Sure, most right tackles in the league do. So is your main argument that he would have trouble as a rookie against Pro Bowl talent?

[cdl15]

Erving couldn't stop guys that no one in the league has been able to stop? wtf?? He got dominated by them AFTER they basically beat the shit outta Bitonio and couldn't return? FUCK THAT GUY.

 

We hold this team to a certain standard. And one of them standards is if we draft you, You had better be probowl talent in 3 starts or you will never be good enough for our juggernaut team.

[Mudfly]

Mud, I've touched on that before with Montgomery and the missing OL coach, but I didn't realise it was so widespread.

 

That being said if I remember rightly, Joker Philips, our WR coach, had no experience, yet Benjamin's having a breakout year. More luck than judgement? Benjamin was always going to come good just needed time? Other?

They are all inexperienced Chris.....joker too.....

 

I guess my point is that if people think these guys arent being coached well, then lets take an honest look at who is doing the coaching and not just fire Pettine because he's the guy at the top.....

 

Doesnt mean that every coach is doing a bad job.....ala Joker......"some" of them HAVE to know what they are doing.....cant be that every single person in this organization is bad.....so, lets determine which ones and fix it.....

 

If Im looking at position groups and their performances.....Im keying in on the RB's, LB's, O line and D line as groups that are under performing.....and therefore, keying in on those coaches....

 

But I think the DB's, WR's, TE's and QB''s seem to at least meet their base expectations...so, maybe they are being coached ok.....

 

So....thats where Id start.....

[gftChris]

They are all inexperienced Chris.....joker too.....

 

I guess my point is that if people think these guys arent being coached well, then lets take an honest look at who is doing the coaching and not just fire Pettine because he's the guy at the top.....

 

Doesnt mean that every coach is doing a bad job.....ala Joker......"some" of them HAVE to know what they are doing.....cant be that every single person in this organization is bad.....so, lets determine which ones and fix it.....

Seems we'd do OK sticking with Kevin O'Connell at QB coach, Joker at WR is ok - though his inability to get Bowe engaged is a negative, and Gabriel seems to have taken a step backwards.

 

On the flip side (lol), Wilbert Montgomery has been coaching since 1997 and our backs look awful between the tackles.

 

Brian Angelichio, our TE position is somewhere in between, but I guess we can call him a positive, given Barnidge.

 

Honestly, it doesn't seem like the inexperienced position coaches - Joker, O'Connell - are the problem. OL coach is missing - unfair to expect a rookie to step in at the last minute; and RB coach is the most experienced of the lot.

 

 

On the D side, Weaver is our DL coach, and held that position in Buffalo and New York (asst) under Pett. Not super experienced, but not a rookie.

 

Our LB coach, Chuck Driesbach - I'm assuming is the same as the guy that was at the bills a couple years ago:

 

 

Chuck Driesbach enters his first year as an NFL coach after 36 years in the college ranks including five (2007-11) as Assistant Head Coach and Defensive Coordinator at Rice University. He is entering his 37th year of coaching, including 20 years as a defensive coordinator.

http://www.buffalobills.com/team/coaches/driesbach_chuck/4f634514-da81-4a75-82d8-149c9c6d5f57

 

First year in the NFL...37th year coaching.

 

Secondary coach, Jeff Hafley looks like a similar (though shorter) story, college coaching experience, not NFL.

 

I think many of the assistants are rookies or quite inexperienced, which might be contributing to the problem. that's fine if you're Bill Belichick, and you pick out guys like Newsome, Piolo, Lombardi etc who have all gone on to bigger and better things, but that's not going to happen very often. I agree, some experience is needed.

[TexasAg1969]

Gotta be a TC-patented, troll post... hole in the logic so big even Crow could run thru it...

 

Nah-he'd still try to make it around end.

[Unsympathetic]

This analysis is useful when talking about what coaches are getting results.

 

Dear god, don't blame a coach for Manziel's performance.

[jiggins7919]

Im a "dont fire Pettine guy" too.....

 

I do agree that the coaching is a big part of the problem and there's probably a communication breakdown between the top and the players. ....so the staff needs to be upgraded. Though, Im leaning toward making changes with the position coaches, and maybe coordinators, before I go after Pettine.....who really is just the guy who manages the coaches......

 

If you look at out position Coaches, they are painfully inexperienced.(just like the guys at the top)...none of them have any NFL experience and most are in new roles here. So, for example, we have a guy coaching our OLB's who played QB in College and has zero NFL coaching experience.....and you know what?.....our OLB's suck and seem lost......and this theme continues.....Our OL coach was thrust into his position because the other one was fired(and drunk) and he has zero NFL experience....he was "supposed" to be an asst, but now has the whole ball of wax, yet he has zero experience.....and, oddly, its the O line and OLB's that are struggling greatly....

 

So...Id say these types of guys are more likely to be the reasons for poor coaching, than Pettine.....Of course, Pettine is responsible for assembling a staff....and seems to have failed in that respect....but, I also know he had literally no one to pick from. So, the owner or GM really need to consider if Pettine is the problem, of if his staff is.......I get that the mob is lined up with their torches and pitch forks ready to hang someone....Im just hoping they dont string up the wrong guy.....again.....(or too many guys, just to make sure they get the right one)...

 

I also worry that these "kids" we have as Coaches really arent up to the task of developing new talent....hech, they are rookies themselves and also trying to learn a new job....and anybody learning a new job struggles a bit, so how are they supposed to be teaching, when they are still focused on learning??

 

So....If Im Haslem.....here's what Im doing...

 

Step 1, Im getting Pettine to offer an honest evaluation of his staff and then we are going out and getting some REAL NFL coaches to replace the kids....especially on Defense, which has the most glaring Coaching needs in terms of experience..... Im getting a quality LB Coach, RB coach, OL coach, DC and OC.....with experience....no more "Learning as we go".....plus as many other experienced coaches as Jimmys money can buy....

 

Step 2, Im getting after Farmer about the talent, which is seriously lacking. No coach is gonna win too many games with this team. Not a one. So, there has to be an ultimatum about acquiring talent and getting it properly developed and on to the field....I would also expect better control with the check book, because we have some "less than talented" players making a shit pile of money.....Id be mad to have the highest paid defense, which is nowhere even close to the most talented.....

 

Step 3....Im getting rid of a lot of dead weight. Right away too. We have some guys who are NOT buying into the system and, by doing this, are hurting the team. And we have some guys who are just a negative drain on everybody and everything associated with the team. Guys like Manziel, Bowe, Gordon, etc have all created massive negativity and bad bad public relations, while bringing us very little on the positive side or on the field....and it's been 100% on Pettine to deal with it....both in having to explain over and over why they suck and why they dont play....having to be their coach AND babysitter......and having to deal with all their issues and problems in the press,,,,,,all while Farmer hides in his office, as if HE wasnt the reason they are here.....

 

Step 4....Im STILL getting rid of dead weight....in terms of non-performing players.....Time to dump the guys who just arent good. Weve seen enough to know that guys like Mingo, Kruger & Bowe arent worth their paycheck....so get em outta here already.....we need players and these guys arent bringing that. PLUS, some of these guys are not helping the team with their attitudes and probably cause a lot of negative thinking & feelings in the locker room....time to chop ANYBODY who's not 100% in or who plays like shit......

 

I think this would be a more reasonable approach to fixing some of what ails this team......and honestly believe if they just fire everybody, we will be right back in the exact same position soon enough. No matter who the new coach is, he will have similar problems to Pettine, in assembling his staff.....and, everyone will see, that he will not win with the group we have in there now....

 

So....if Im firing people....its names like DeLeone, Montgomery, Fleury, Driesbach, Hafley.....and yes, Oneill & Flip are at risk too....though, if their egos would allow, I might just demote those 2 and keep em on staff at positions that are a bit more suitable to their skills and experience....

 

Anyhow.....I know this will be unpopular and you all are pretty set on hanging somebody.....but hopefully, Haslem doesnt have a torch and is taking a calmer, more reasonable approach to the next step....

 

 

This. All of this.

 

The one thing I disagree with is Josh Gordon. I know, I know...fool me once, fool me twice...fool me a dozen times. That being said, he's different because he HAS provided us with results when on the field. Gordon is not a bright bulb, let's get that straight. He actually comes off as intelligent, but he obviously lacks the responsibility and "life skills" needed to cut the mustard in the NFL. And once you're in the NFL disciplinary system, you HAVE to walk the line...on all fronts. I want to keep Gordon because I know what he's capable of. Players with his skill are rare in the NFL, and we've come this far, so why not wait and see what we can get out of him?

 

At one point Gordon passed about 70 tests in a row over a long span of time. I don't think he's a drug addict, but I'm also not qualified to make any findings on his status. He strikes me as a guy that can make it work, and while I don't have one shred of evidence to make that claim, it's a gut feeling I have. I hope we play it by ear, see how he reports (once he's reinstated), and just see how it goes. He's not expensive, and I honestly think he's going to make it.

[jiggins7919]

Erving couldn't stop guys that no one in the league has been able to stop? wtf?? He got dominated by them AFTER they basically beat the shit outta Bitonio and couldn't return? FUCK THAT GUY.

 

We hold this team to a certain standard. And one of them standards is if we draft you, You had better be probowl talent in 3 starts or you will never be good enough for our juggernaut team.

 

There is some truth to your statement, and I don't know many people that would write off a first round talent after three starts. I'm as hard on Erving as anyone, and granted, he's played against some nasty defenders, but I think what worries people is just how overmatched he looks. Should Erving be dominating? No, I don't think THAT'S fair, but should he be getting his ass blown apart on just about every play? Eh...probably not. But again, guard is not his position, and I'd love to see him at center. Perhaps some work in the weight room will help him? Maybe playing center will be a deciding factor, and perhaps he works on his leverage. When it comes to the "eye test", Erving is failing, and it doesn't help that announcers are calling him out either.

 

I'm not happy with how Erving started out his career, but I certainly wouldn't label the kid a bust. Let's see how he responds. I guess it'd be nice to have a first round pick explode onto the scene, but whatever. I do know Erving is a hard worker, and I do know he's an intelligent player that will do whatever he is asked. I'm rooting for him, but he simply MUST get his leverage down, and his strength up.

[Mudfly]

 

 

This. All of this.

 

The one thing I disagree with is Josh Gordon.

Yeah....I have some similar feelings and would be hesitant to dump him at this stage....unles I could get some value(which isnt likely)...

 

If you read a little closer, you'll see my real point was just to show some of these guys have brought more grief than good.....and that includes Gordon....

 

 

Guys like Manziel, Bowe, Gordon, etc have all created massive negativity and bad bad public relations, while bringing us very little on the positive side or on the field....and it's been 100% on Pettine to deal with it....both in having to explain over and over why they suck and why they dont play....having to be their coach AND babysitter......and having to deal with all their issues and problems in the press,,,,,,all while Farmer hides in his office, as if HE wasnt the reason they are here.....

 

So.....Pettine has had a LOT of "circus" shit swirling.....non stop......since he's been here......A LOT of it....

 

Gordon, hopefully, will give us something....someday......but the truth is that he;s been here for 4 seasons now and has given us(and the team) a part of one good season.....the other 3 years and 4 games are shit.....

 

Mingo, Gilbert, Gordon and Johnny add up to 11 years of nothing, if you ask me......so, how long do we wait?

[Clevfan4life]

 

 

I think he would have fared SLIGHTLY better against a 267 lb. Michael Johnson, instead of a 305 lb. Geno Atkins or a 325 lb. Domata Peko. Erving's main weakness coming out of Florida State was that he didn't possess the lower body strength needed for an interior line position at the NFL level yet.

 

He's a rookie playing in a position he barely practiced at and is ill-suited for, going up against two of the better interior defensive linemen in the league. He would have had troubles anywhere you threw him, but throwing him at LG against Atkins and Peko and expecting anything other than struggles was just wishful thinking.

 

Would he have trouble with Mario Williams? Sure, most right tackles in the league do. So is your main argument that he would have trouble as a rookie against Pro Bowl talent?

 

I think he would have gotten beasted at will no matter where he was placed. Heck they probably would have let Atkins work on his DE is we put Erving out at tackle. The matchup favored them that well, lols. Hell I bet Kruger in practice bull's Erving out of his shoes.

[Clevfan4life]

Erving couldn't stop guys that no one in the league has been able to stop? wtf?? He got dominated by them AFTER they basically beat the shit outta Bitonio and couldn't return? FUCK THAT GUY.

 

We hold this team to a certain standard. And one of them standards is if we draft you, You had better be probowl talent in 3 starts or you will never be good enough for our juggernaut team.

 

ok I understand what you're saying and you're right to a point, but it's the way he was getting beat. Paizer came in and while Atkins pushed him back too, Paizer kept him infront of him.

[Mudfly]

Hell I bet Kruger in practice bull's Erving out of his shoes.

at least he's bulling somebody....

 

Yesterday.....Kruger had another game w/o a stop or tackle.......but, YAY, he had a sack.....

 

At least the coaches see this....they have cut his snaps AGAIN.....down to just 25 now......so, Im not seeing things...

 

He really does suck.....(mingo too).....

[slimdawg]

I'm honestly curious because I've watched it for 35 years here in Cleveland, particularly since coming back to the NFL. What could Haslem do? So many want nothing except to win "now" and that simpy isn't going to happen. To fix this cluster-fuck will take many years and it seems like the majority of Browns fans and media simply wouldn't tolerate that. The media is a joke and the fans are so unrealistic I'm not sure there is anything he could do.

For a Stooler fan, this is a very smart post. Cant argue with any of it, completely true.

[D Bone]

Why don't you look at the stats?

 

Dude, come on. Are you really saying that our doughboy has had the same impact as Haloti Ngata did his rookie year?? Come on, it's not even close.

[jrb12711]

The number one thing a coach can't do is lose the locker room and respect of his players. I'm almost positive based on a lot of pretty solid rumors that this has happened in Cleveland with Pettine. If that really is the case there's absolutely no way you can keep him for next season.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

Dude, come on. Are you really saying that our doughboy has had the same impact as Haloti Ngata did his rookie year?? Come on, it's not even close.

Yes, I'm saying that. Because statistically he has.

 

I think your problem is threefold - you are severely overvaluing Ngata's individual rookie season, you forget the Ravens defensive staff in 2006 and I also think you don't understand the role of a NT in a 3-4 scheme.

 

The 2006 Ravens defense is thought to have been one of the best, if not the best, defenses in NFL history. They allowed 12.6 points per game that season, which no other team has ever replicated. They also had longtime top-tier NT Kelly Gregg and 4x Pro Bowler Trevor Pryce on the defensive line, with a linebacking corps of Terrelle Suggs, Ray Lewis, Bart Scott and Adalius Thomas and two Pro Bowl corners in Samari Rolle and Chris McAlister. Oh, and also some guy named Ed Reed.

 

Secondly, Ngata played as a 3-tech DT in the Ravens 4-3 for much of that year, where he faced less double teams and was able to move about more freely. As a true 3-4 NT, Shelton is asked to eat up space, take double teams, and has a two gap responsibility, things that Ngata did not have to worry about in his rookie year.

 

Thirdly, the Ngata career arc is thought to be the ideal way to progress a young NT. Typically, rookie NT's don't possess the experience and strength to hold down the fort as a true NT for their first few years, so they cut their teeth as a DT - which is what the Ravens did with Ngata. We are throwing Shelton in and expecting him to excel immediately as a true NT, and he's playing average - which is to be expected.

 

Fourth, despite making no changes to our ILB corps, we're experiencing better performance against runs between the guards. Last year, opposing defenses ran at us between the guards on 63% of plays, with a 4.63 A/YPA. This season, they are only getting around 4.2 A/YPA - not much of a difference, but it shows that Shelton, as a rookie, with no changes to our linebacking corps has made some impact.

 

Last season, our two worst areas for the defensive line were runs between guards and runs between right guard and tackle. This year, those are our two BEST areas.

 

So, all in all, yes Shelton is doing just fine and has the same impact Ngata did in his rookie year.

[Mudfly]

All I hear are a bunch of people repeating what they read and pumping out cliche after cliche....

 

Cliche #1) Pettine is losing the locker room?.....dont see it. These guys look to be playing hard and Ive only heard about one or 2 guys who are crying....And in a room with 53 people, there will ALWAYS be some who aren;t with the program...

 

Cliche #2) Players arent "being put in position to succeed"......HA!..The lamest argument ive heard yet and Ive heard it 100 times this week.....has asked many of those posters to show me how, but no one has....just a bunch of "kruger covering " comments(which are crap and untrue) and a bunch of "they are playing like shit, so that HAS to be the reason".....

 

Cliche #3) Pettine is a poor game manager and has poor clock management skills......Truth is that its the Coordinators who manage the game....and the QB's who have screwed up the clock the last couple of times....so, maybe the QB coach should teach his guys what to do during a 2 min drill....or the O coordinator should make it clear to his players that we have to be alert at the end of a half.....that is 2 minute drill 101 for most coaches....lastly, no matter how goofy some of the clock issues have been, we have not lost because of it......yesterday everyone was crying about it, even tough we got the FG(which was all we were getting anyway).....

 

So....people tell me Krugers is not being used right.....even though he rushes the passer 90% of the time.....does anyone get that is exactly what he did last year too?......that a guy like Kruger or a DB is really just going man against man and its NOT a scheme thing??.....its that one man wins and the other one loses....and our guys are losing those battles?.....

 

For the third time this week.....Im asking for one person to explain to me "why" the scheme is bad....or what are they doing that prevents our players from making plays.......or what, exactly, is Oneill doing that another DC wont do.....or vice versa....

[Pumpkin Eater]

Keeping an incompetent moron in a key position is never a recipe for success...no matter what the reason. Pettine is an incompetent moron in way over his head. The longer he is coach the more he is going to fuck up and the worse he will fuck everything up.

[D Bone]

I think your problem is threefold - you are severely overvaluing Ngata's individual rookie season, you forget the Ravens defensive staff in 2006 and I also think you don't understand the role of a NT in a 3-4 scheme.

 

Wow. I thought you knew football more based on some of your posts, but apparently, I was wrong. I have been coaching football for over a decade at the HS level - not something I publicize here a lot - but there you go. Take that for whatever you think it's worth, but trust me when I say I understand what the NT's responsibilities are in a 3-4 base. The Browns are seldom in 'just' a 3-4 base... They are all over the map. Even when they do have 3-4 base personnel on the field, they don't always line up in a true 3-4 base.

 

The next game, watch it like you were coaching. For 1 entire quarter watch Danny (that is if he isn't yanked for a UDFA again). He gets moved off the LOS more times than not, and out of those times, he is often 1 on 1 and not doubled. If you do watch Danny, you'll see what I'm talking about..... It's not every snap, some snaps he holds his own for sure, but he needs to win his 1 on 1's with a lot more consistency, so the offense will have to double him more then they are now.

 

He needs to add strength and lose weight this offseason if he ever has a chance to play like Ngata........ Being a giant, slow cream puff works in D1, but not in the NFL.

[Why?!?!?]

The buck stops at Pettine . . . period.

 

Blaming the QB's for the piss poor clock management. . . That's just about the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

 

And if you want to blame the coordinators for everything that's fine . . . But shouldn't Pettine have done something about seeing the same mistakes over and over again. Or how about mentioning that whatever scheme they are trying to run isn't working.

 

For example of bad coaching let's look at the defensive backfield. Our DB's have been left out on islands all year long. You can say that they aren't talented enough, but isn't it up to coaching to realize hey our guys aren't talented enough to play man every down and give them some safety help.

 

Or how about seemingly every guy on our defense being told or thinking they have to lose weight to be able to play on the scheme. Somethings just not right with that picture.

 

I realize that the players aren't world beaters, but the coaching staff can't continually use that as an excuse and make ZERO adjustments to the scheme. They have to be able to adjust.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

All I hear are a bunch of people repeating what they read and pumping out cliche after cliche....

 

Cliche #1) Pettine is losing the locker room?.....dont see it. These guys look to be playing hard and Ive only heard about one or 2 guys who are crying....And in a room with 53 people, there will ALWAYS be some who aren;t with the program...

 

Cliche #2) Players arent "being put in position to succeed"......HA!..The lamest argument ive heard yet and Ive heard it 100 times this week.....has asked many of those posters to show me how, but no one has....just a bunch of "kruger covering " comments(which are crap and untrue) and a bunch of "they are playing like shit, so that HAS to be the reason".....

 

Cliche #3) Pettine is a poor game manager and has poor clock management skills......Truth is that its the Coordinators who manage the game....and the QB's who have screwed up the clock the last couple of times....so, maybe the QB coach should teach his guys what to do during a 2 min drill....or the O coordinator should make it clear to his players that we have to be alert at the end of a half.....that is 2 minute drill 101 for most coaches....lastly, no matter how goofy some of the clock issues have been, we have not lost because of it......yesterday everyone was crying about it, even tough we got the FG(which was all we were getting anyway).....

 

So....people tell me Krugers is not being used right.....even though he rushes the passer 90% of the time.....does anyone get that is exactly what he did last year too?......that a guy like Kruger or a DB is really just going man against man and its NOT a scheme thing??.....its that one man wins and the other one loses....and our guys are losing those battles?.....

 

For the third time this week.....Im asking for one person to explain to me "why" the scheme is bad....or what are they doing that prevents our players from making plays.......or what, exactly, is Oneill doing that another DC wont do.....or vice versa....

 

I think it's the scheme as a whole that is wrong for this league.

 

The main problem is that we don't possess linebackers who CAN cover outside of Dansby at this point in time. For as poor as our defensive performance has been, we're currently ranked 18th in the league against #1 WR's, and 16th in the league against #2 WR's...but 29th against "Other WR's" and 23rd against RB's. So, while our secondary as a whole has been injured and ineffective, the real detriment to the team has been the mismatches in coverage on receivers that AREN'T flankers or split ends.

 

A team that plays man lock coverage on the outside is inherently a team that requires near perfection from its defensive staff. Zone coverage has its holes, but it's a solid crutch for teams that don't possess true cover corners or are transitioning players, coaches, etc. I'd love to see the percentage breakdown of man vs. zone called coverages, because I feel like we'd be near the top of the league in called man percentage. To me, if that's the case, that's a coaching issue.

 

Part of this is a Farmer problem, as that means he didn't supply the coaching staff with the coverage linebacker it needs to execute this scheme properly. However, another problem then lies in the inability of the defensive coaching staff to recognize where the issues are and address them. If we're getting gouged through the air by RB's, slot WR's and TE's, then you would think we would naturally then shift to a higher percentage of zone and combo coverages to help our linebacking corps with the mismatches.

 

Early in the season, Dansby was THE top coverage linebacker in the NFL, so what's changed? I don't have a Sig Stats membership to PFF, so I can't tell you.

 

All I know is, this is the worst defensive performance a Browns team has put together with arguably the most talented roster on paper, so there is a disconnect somewhere.

[jiggins7919]

Mingo has 13 solo tackles, and 20 combined. Kruger has 12 solo tackles, and 2.5 sacks. TWELVE TACKLES?! Wouldn't he accidentally get a few more? We have such a deficiency in our outside linebacking corp, that it's not even funny. They don't have a nose for the ball, they don't get pressure on the qb, and they must be the easiest opponent for every OL. It doesn't seem possible that they are so bad. Mingo was a high pick, and Kruger was a high priced free agent. Just....UGH. Farmer didn't select Mingo, so I can't blame him, but I DO blame him for not finding other people that can make a difference.

 

I wish we had some young defenders I could get excited about, but we really don't. I am interested to see that corner we took late that had the knee injury, but coming off a major injury is a tall task. Hopefully Orchard and Shelton will make second year leaps, and K'Waun can stay healthy. I also think Haden makes a comeback, and this year is not a fair representation of him as a player. I assume Gipson will go (can we tag him?), Gilbert won't pan out, Starks will go, and several others won't come back. It's going to be a crazy offseason, that's for sure.

 

As fans, many of us wanted an owner that opened the check book, and it appears that we have it. Our defense carries a staggering price of $82 million, and suffice to say, they completely suck and are devoid of talent. Yes, we've had injuries, but we also haven't developed any young talent. Cleveland isn't a desirable place to come as a free agent, I think that's fair, so teams like us have to overpay for talent. Well, we overpaid, but we didn't get the corresponding talent. We don't stop the run, rush the passer, or generally make things difficult for the opposition.

[gftChris]

Farmer was asst. GM when we picked Mingo, fwiw.

[Why?!?!?]

Bottom line the Browns need a coach who looks at the players and says "how can I scheme around these guys?" Instead of "how do these guys fit into my scheme"

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

Wow. I thought you knew football more based on some of your posts, but apparently, I was wrong. I have been coaching football for over a decade at the HS level - not something I publicize here a lot - but there you go. Take that for whatever you think it's worth, but trust me when I say I understand what the NT's responsibilities are in a 3-4 base. The Browns are seldom in 'just' a 3-4 base... They are all over the map. Even when they do have 3-4 base personnel on the field, they don't always line up in a true 3-4 base.

 

The next game, watch it like you were coaching. For 1 entire quarter watch Danny (that is if he isn't yanked for a UDFA again). He gets moved off the LOS more times than not, and out of those times, he is often 1 on 1 and not doubled. If you do watch Danny, you'll see what I'm talking about..... It's not every snap, some snaps he holds his own for sure, but he needs to win his 1 on 1's with a lot more consistency, so the offense will have to double him more then they are now.

 

He needs to add strength and lose weight this offseason if he ever has a chance to play like Ngata........ Being a giant, slow cream puff works in D1, but not in the NFL.

 

In this entire response, you refuted zero claims. It took you a lot of words to say "I know football, I coach a high school, Shelton is fat" and nothing else of substance.

 

I watch every game like I'm coaching - and I see a rookie NT who gets about half of the defensive snaps for no reason. I'll have to wait until I get home to watch the full tape again, but just from the NFL.com highlights that I can easily access here...

 

2nd and 8, Shelton takes on a double team, reads the play action and washes down, then Robertson (who is supposed to fill the gap) runs directly into Shelton's back and Shelton disengages and knocks him over, despite there being at least 4 yards of open space to the right of Shelton.

 

1st and goal, Shelton stands directly up, takes on a double team, literally throws #61 Russell Bodine off of him, is in position to make the play at the LOS, and Jamie Meder gets washed down so hard that he rolls over Shelton's leg and knocks him down.

 

3rd and 1, Shelton takes on a double team and gets moved back 6 inches.

 

Shelton is playing like a rookie, no better, no worse. He has a high pad height and he's not strong enough to consistently play inside yet, but he's playing exactly how he should. However, he's on the field for only half of the defensive plays, and he's getting blown up by our own defensive players the other half.

[jrb12711]

All I hear are a bunch of people repeating what they read and pumping out cliche after cliche....

 

Cliche #1) Pettine is losing the locker room?.....dont see it. These guys look to be playing hard and Ive only heard about one or 2 guys who are crying....And in a room with 53 people, there will ALWAYS be some who aren;t with the program...

 

We're usually on the same page but I could not disagree with you more on this statement. Guys out there yesterday literally looked they didn't give a shit, to include Tramon Williams limply pointing to Gipson as he let A.J. green go WIDE open for a TD. I don't see guys playing hard at all, just a bunch of people who have given up.

[Mudfly]

 

I think it's the scheme as a whole that is wrong for this league.

 

The main problem is that we don't possess linebackers who CAN cover outside of Dansby at this point in time. For as poor as our defensive performance has been, we're currently ranked 18th in the league against #1 WR's, and 16th in the league against #2 WR's...but 29th against "Other WR's" and 23rd against RB's.

This is because our LB's suck....and not a function of sceme. OLB's DO cover on other teams and our OLB's are rated dead last in the league for coverage...

 

A team that plays man lock coverage on the outside is inherently a team that requires near perfection from its defensive staff. Zone coverage has its holes, but it's a solid crutch for teams that don't possess true cover corners or are transitioning players, coaches, etc. I'd love to see the percentage breakdown of man vs. zone called coverages, because I feel like we'd be near the top of the league in called man percentage. To me, if that's the case, that's a coaching issue.

The Browns have said all along that we are a man coverage team and, last year, we were rated #1 in the league at this. So, why would they change that coming onto this season. One of the biggest issues.....(and you know it) .....has been the run defense. And, because our LB's have been SO deficient there. the staff has NO alternative but to get help up front....which means the Safeties play up(like linebackers). And when the safeties play up, the the DB's are alone......if we get help to the DB's, then they run right over us and kill us with slants and screens....why?.....because our LB's suck!!!

 

And to say they haven't done anything is crazy....the caoches have been moving guys all over the place TRYING to get some level o competence from them. And now, they have even pulled Kruger and Mingo out, cause they just arent getting it done....

 

Part of this is a Farmer problem, as that means he didn't supply the coaching staff with the coverage linebacker it needs to execute this scheme properly.

This, right here, is the biggest failure on our D....

 

However, another problem then lies in the inability of the defensive coaching staff to recognize where the issues are and address them. If we're getting gouged through the air by RB's, slot WR's and TE's, then you would think we would naturally then shift to a higher percentage of zone and combo coverages to help our linebacking corps with the mismatches.

As explained above, the coaches HAVE recognized it and made HUGE changes to who playing....how they're lining up.....etc.....problem is, that without the talent, no matter where we offer extra protection, they are just gonna go and expose the spot that not getting it.....so, give u the run or give u the long ball, but with these players one of those things is gonna happen....

 

Early in the season, Dansby was THE top coverage linebacker in the NFL, so what's changed?

He is rated 3rd in the league...Dansby and Kirksey have dropped into coverage 700+ times this year and rushed the passer only 90....which tells you they are covering for EVERYBODY......Kruger is bitching that he :covers too much, yet he's dropped only 50 times and rushed the passer over 280 times.....yet he cant make a tackle.....

 

Dansby has to cover for 400+ pass plays, yet leads the team with 81 tackles....

Kruger has to cover for only 50 plays, yet only has 13 tackles in 13 games.......

 

Dansby cant do everything.....(but he;s trying)

 

All I know is, this is the worst defensive performance a Browns team has put together with arguably the most talented roster on paper, so there is a disconnect somewhere.

 

I dont see all this talent of which you speak.....our 3 all pro DB's have not performed.....and our OLB's bite.....and without OLB's, you cant win.....

[Mudfly]

 

We're usually on the same page but I could not disagree with you more on this statement. Guys out there yesterday literally looked they didn't give a shit, to include Tramon Williams limply pointing to Gipson as he let A.J. green go WIDE open for a TD. I don't see guys playing hard at all, just a bunch of people who have given up.

Like I said before, with 53 guys, some are gonna give up and some are gonna bitch....

 

But, to my eye, it looks like just a handful......

 

Losing sucks....guys get down about it.....some even quite.....doesnt mean that the coach has "lost the locker room"....

 

Again....a popular cliche to use when things look bad....

[D Bone]

Bottom line TCPO if you think Danny's having the same impact in his rookie season as Haloti did in his, then your opinion is wrong.... Have a good one.