Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted December 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2015 Bottom line TCPO if you think Danny's having the same impact in his rookie season as Haloti did in his, then your opinion is wrong.... Have a good one. Except that it's not - and if you're truly a coach, you must not be a good one. Take it easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted December 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2015 I think it's the scheme as a whole that is wrong for this league. The main problem is that we don't possess linebackers who CAN cover outside of Dansby at this point in time. For as poor as our defensive performance has been, we're currently ranked 18th in the league against #1 WR's, and 16th in the league against #2 WR's...but 29th against "Other WR's" and 23rd against RB's. This is because our LB's suck....and not a function of sceme. OLB's DO cover on other teams and our OLB's are rated dead last in the league for coverage... A team that plays man lock coverage on the outside is inherently a team that requires near perfection from its defensive staff. Zone coverage has its holes, but it's a solid crutch for teams that don't possess true cover corners or are transitioning players, coaches, etc. I'd love to see the percentage breakdown of man vs. zone called coverages, because I feel like we'd be near the top of the league in called man percentage. To me, if that's the case, that's a coaching issue. The Browns have said all along that we are a man coverage team and, last year, we were rated #1 in the league at this. So, why would they change that coming onto this season. One of the biggest issues.....(and you know it) .....has been the run defense. And, because our LB's have been SO deficient there. the staff has NO alternative but to get help up front....which means the Safeties play up(like linebackers). And when the safeties play up, the the DB's are alone......if we get help to the DB's, then they run right over us and kill us with slants and screens....why?.....because our LB's suck!!! And to say they haven't done anything is crazy....the caoches have been moving guys all over the lace TRYING to get some level o competence from them. And now, they have even pulled Kruger and Mingo out, cause they just arent getting it done.... Part of this is a Farmer problem, as that means he didn't supply the coaching staff with the coverage linebacker it needs to execute this scheme properly. This, right here, is the biggest failure on our D.... However, another problem then lies in the inability of the defensive coaching staff to recognize where the issues are and address them. If we're getting gouged through the air by RB's, slot WR's and TE's, then you would think we would naturally then shift to a higher percentage of zone and combo coverages to help our linebacking corps with the mismatches. As explained above, the coaches HAVE recognized it and made HUGE changes to who playing....how they're lining up.....etc.....problem is, that without the talent, no matter where we offer extra protection, they are just gonna go and expose the spot that not getting it.....so, give u the run or give u the long ball, but with these players one of those things is gonna happen.... Early in the season, Dansby was THE top coverage linebacker in the NFL, so what's changed? He is rated 3rd in the league...Dansby and Kirksey have dropped into coverage 700+ times this year and rushed the passer only 90....which tells you they are covering for EVERYBODY......Kruger is bitching that he :covers too much, yet he's dropped only 50 times and rushed the passer over 280 times.....yet he cant make a tackle..... Dansby has to cover for 400+ pass plays, yet leads the team with 81 tackles.... Kruger has to cover for only 50 plays, yet only has 13 tackles in 13 games....... Dansby cant do everything.....(but he;s trying) All I know is, this is the worst defensive performance a Browns team has put together with arguably the most talented roster on paper, so there is a disconnect somewhere. I dont see all this talent of which you speak.....our 3 all pro DB's have not performed.....and our OLB's bite.....and without OLB's, you cant win..... I can't recall a time in the past when we had a five Pro Bowl players on our defense at the same time along with the top rated NT in his draft class. Regardless of their performance this year, ON PAPER that is the most talented defense we've seen. Once again, on paper. So the flaw in this defense is on Farmer, then, despite the fact that he got a top rated cover corner to pair opposite of Haden, a former Pro Bowl strong safety, one of the best cover ILB's, the most versatile DT available in FA, and the top rated NT in the draft this year - all things that Pettine NEEDED to run this scheme. Now he NEEDS an OLB and it's Farmer's fault for not supplying him with that. Forgive me if I just don't have faith in Pettine then. Because we'll go out and get him a cover OLB and then he'll NEED a top DE. And then we'll get him that and he'll NEED a 7'7" FS with chainsaw arms. I agree that our OLB's are terrible. But at some point, it's on the coaching staff to win with what the fuck they have - we spent a TON of money and time on defensive personnel and they still can't win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted December 7, 2015 Report Share Posted December 7, 2015 Absolutely correct. Well said. You realize that every single word in the remainder of your post was a perfect example of the fan attitude/behavior that Douche was criticizing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted December 7, 2015 Report Share Posted December 7, 2015 I think he would have fared SLIGHTLY better against a 267 lb. Michael Johnson, instead of a 305 lb. Geno Atkins or a 325 lb. Domata Peko. Erving's main weakness coming out of Florida State was that he didn't possess the lower body strength needed for an interior line position at the NFL level yet. I doubt even slightly... his feet weren't great at FSU. Not something that screams "put this guy with anchoring issues in space." That said, Geno ate up Bito in our first meeting. So I agree that you can't condemn Cam for all time based upon his showing Sunday. He should get stronger and learn to use his size as an asset. If Im looking at position groups and their performances.....Im keying in on the RB's, LB's, O line and D line as groups that are under performing.....and therefore, keying in on those coaches.... But I think the DB's, WR's, TE's and QB''s seem to at least meet their base expectations...so, maybe they are being coached ok..... So....thats where Id start..... QB's and DB's for me... maybe WR's... Can't give TE coach credit for Barn, a simply undiscovered talent, when Dray has underperformed. Also remember that Housler did not develop. I can't recall our off-season staff moves besides Flip and O'Connell. Did we make any? On the D side, Weaver is our DL coach, and held that position in Buffalo and New York (asst) under Pett. Not super experienced, but not a rookie. Our LB coach, Chuck Driesbach - I'm assuming is the same as the guy that was at the bills a couple years ago: First year in the NFL...37th year coaching. Your lack of NFL experience theme rings true, for ability to relate to pros mindset and gravitas to hammer home their points, if not actual knowledge. The other trap I see is the groupthink that so many Bills refugees might have brought. All I hear are a bunch of people repeating what they read and pumping out cliche after cliche.... And you have a funny way of throwing in the proverbial towel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted December 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2015 I doubt even slightly... his feet weren't great at FSU. Not something that screams "put this guy with anchoring issues in space." That said, Geno ate up Bito in our first meeting. So I agree that you can't condemn Cam for all time based upon his showing Sunday. He should get stronger and learn to use his size as an asset. His feet were less of a concern than his lower body strength, though. At least, in my opinion. Neither were great, but if you were to grade each on a 1-10 scale, I'd say 6 for footwork and 5.5 for LBS. He'll never be a road grader in the NFL. He's rangier and quicker, I still say he's infinitely more physically built to be a tackle than a center. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiggins7919 Posted December 7, 2015 Report Share Posted December 7, 2015 Here's a fun tidbit: After his reception yesterday, Tom Brady has more receiving yards than Dwayne Bowe this year. I will now go vomit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted December 7, 2015 Report Share Posted December 7, 2015 The buck stops at Pettine . . . period. Blaming the QB's for the piss poor clock management. . . That's just about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Absolutely on the buck... but not the rest. Yes, it's on the QB... and it is on his coach for not prepping him adequately... It may be on the OC for not seeing that the QB Coach prepped his QB(s)... It may be on the HC for not seeing that the OC and/or DC and/or ST have prepped their squads. But the first link, the QB's and his position coach's link, is the only one we know for sure that fell short. Also may be that the HC and OCs are not allocating adequate time to practice these teaching points, but that's TBD as well. Guys out there yesterday literally looked they didn't give a shit, to include Tramon Williams limply pointing to Gipson as he let A.J. green go WIDE open for a TD. Hmmmm... maybe fans like you are why Pet closed his postgame presser making a point of saying that the coverage in your example called for Tramon to play "trail coverage with help over the top"... 8:45 mark of the following video: http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/media-center/videos/Mike_Pettine_press_conference_Browns_vs_Bengals/92d96a3a-96a7-4c3a-ac75-b61dd44ce005 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted December 7, 2015 Report Share Posted December 7, 2015 He'll never be a road grader in the NFL. He's rangier and quicker, I still say he's infinitely more physically built to be a tackle than a center. Agree with build, but I never did see a NFL level OT talent. Has a chance to be a good ZBS Center chipping his way to 2nd level blocks while getting double-team assists in power blocking situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted December 7, 2015 Report Share Posted December 7, 2015 I agree with Tour (post of 2:26 pm). He expected help over the top which was not there. So the real question is, "Why not?" Did the safety not understand the coverage? Did the safety not have the speed to get there? (which seemed to be implied by the commentators). So to me either of these being the case falls on the coaches. If the players don't understand the coverage, then either it is too complicated or it was not communicated well enough for the player to know what they were doing. If it's a skill thing then it's poorly designed for the player in question and should not even be in use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted December 7, 2015 Report Share Posted December 7, 2015 Our Safties rotated out of a Cover 2 just prior to the snap. I'm guessing that is where the error was. So the question is who made that call... Gip or Whitner? A deep outside responsibility would be unusual for a one-deep look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted December 7, 2015 Report Share Posted December 7, 2015 I agree with Tour (post of 2:26 pm). He expected help over the top which was not there. So the real question is, "Why not?" Did the safety not understand the coverage? Did the safety not have the speed to get there? (which seemed to be implied by the commentators). So to me either of these being the case falls on the coaches. If the players don't understand the coverage, then either it is too complicated or it was not communicated well enough for the player to know what they were doing. If it's a skill thing then it's poorly designed for the player in question and should not even be in use. Blown assignments = losses. It did make Williams look real bad. But getting back to clock management at the end of the half. I don't know (or really care) who was responsible, but that was a Pop Warner error. & it's not the first time it's happened either. Letting 40 seconds run off before the two minute warning, and then running the clock down to 0:03 when you had the opportunity for one more play to toss one in the end zone is inexcusable in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrb12711 Posted December 7, 2015 Report Share Posted December 7, 2015 Of course it's blown coverage, no one is arguing that. What I'm saying is that he literally didn't give a shit it happened, you can tell at least IMO in his demeanor. It was an "oh well" moment when it should be a get pissed moment. It's just my opinion, but I just see a bunch of guys quitting out there, not putting in 100% and not caring when they look bad. That all points back to coaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted December 7, 2015 Report Share Posted December 7, 2015 Our Safties rotated out of a Cover 2 just prior to the snap. I'm guessing that is where the error was. So the question is who made that call... Gip or Whitner? A deep outside responsibility would be unusual for a one-deep look. As I watched none of the game, I'm going to take a crack at this one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5KmHsFXAyk Starts @ 37seconds in. - You have '11' personnel on the field vs our nickel. - Looks like Gaines to the boundary? - Two fast threats to the field + a back. Fast threat and the inline TE to other side. Pettine's word is that Tramon was in man/trail and Gip over the top? Some things I find curious. Both Gip AND Donte weren't playing over the top. So this isn't 2 man under. It's also not a traditional cloud/roll because Whitner would be moving towards the middle of the field. Instead he's walking over the #2 in what looks like it might be a double team or just man on. So I presume you have Gaines in a MEG, Kwuan is playing outside to inside on the slot with Dansby tracking the back. Carlos gets the read and moves to bracket the slot shallow, there is no additonal threat to Gip's side. - It's a possible miscommunication call from O'Neil? - Bad check by the safeties? - Piss poor communication between Gip and Tramon? - Misunderstanding by the safeties? - Gip flat out played it like an asshole? (most likely) As a DB, If I see that neither the #2 and/or #3 to my side are vertical, I'm going to shade over the #1 if I'm playing the field side to give that man help. I'll be lining up outside the hash and not too close to the numbers to help disguise my look. Tramon failed on getting a decent jam on Green. No easy task. AJ is tall, strong and has long arms. But a good jam allows a few things. - Gives me time to read my keys and attack run to fill - Recover (if necessary) - Rotate over the top - Plus it does tend to invite some ill-advised deep balls for QB's that simply don't look off the safety. Ultimately I think Gip played it very, very bad. He has no additional coverage responsibility and this is what I HATE about production/TV film, I can't see if he was caught flat-footed from the ball action. edit: Something very concerning about this. IF Gip was in fact meant to roll over the top and I'm right about Whitner man on with the TE, then you have a gigantic mismatch there that invites more doubt into O'Neil's calls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Gip blowing it does fit with report in this or another thread that Tramon was pointing at Gip. As for the TE match up... With Eifert out, can't be all that scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bringbackbrownie2 Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 I say fire Pettine, fire O'Neil, promote Flip to interim coach, start Johnny, give him a Terrelle Pryor, start Gilbert across from Tramon, and let's see what we have for the future. 4 game audition. ^Literally this. I still want Flip around.. We could go without a DC the rest of the way and still improve.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Gip blowing it does fit with report in this or another thread that Tramon was pointing at Gip. As for the TE match up... With Eifert out, can't be all that scary. It's still Donte in coverage after dealing with physical issues during the season. I'm skeptical. Also, I have a feeling the call would have been the same with Eifert in as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcam222 Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 The only thing I don't like about the Bowe pickup is the pricetag. We had a need for a player like him. I think/hope Farmer is smart enough to go House of Cards on this thing and earn Haslam's trust, positioning himself to be kept while Pettine fired. He seems sharp like that. We had a need for a guy like Bowe?? Let's see 6'2 , check, slow as shit , check , lazy as fuck on Sunday's, check. Hell we needed me!! Shit id have taken the 10 snaps he's been in on for say $4 million. In addition I'd have done the team laundry and mowed the field. I'd have brought way more value to the Browns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted December 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 We had a need for a guy like Bowe?? Let's see 6'2 , check, slow as shit , check , lazy as fuck on Sunday's, check. Hell we needed me!! Shit id have taken the 10 snaps he's been in on for say $4 million. In addition I'd have done the team laundry and mowed the field. I'd have brought way more value to the Browns. He also would have been our second leading receiver last year, so there is that. The sheer amount of ignorance in this fan base is outstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bringbackbrownie2 Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 He also would have been our second leading receiver last year, so there is that. The sheer amount of ignorance in this fan base is outstanding. So do you feel if he would have played this year he would have been worth the 9 million? If not, it's hard to call others ignorant.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted December 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 So do you feel if he would have played this year he would have been worth the 9 million? If not, it's hard to call others ignorant.. We had to spend the 9 million regardless, if he had replicated even his 2014 season it would have been a large WR threat we didn't have. I don't have a problem with the acquisition, it made sense 5 months ago. I have a problem with him not even seeing the field, despite the fact we've been out scored by like 90 points over the last five or so weeks. Fuck, if Alex Mack wanted to play FB at the end of the Bengals game, he should have got the chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 so who owes what? didn't someone say everyone would be fired today end of biz? come on blowhards,,,,,where you at? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 so who owes what? didn't someone say everyone would be fired today end of biz? come on blowhards,,,,,where you at? I didn't bet anything Mik. Crap, the Rams just fired their offensive coordinator, and they're playing a lot better than the Browns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted December 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 I didn't bet anything Mik. Crap, the Rams just fired their offensive coordinator, and they're playing a lot better than the Browns. Hogwash. You can't fire a coordinator without firing the head coach, and you can't fire the head coach without firing the GM. Everybody knows that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Bone Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Hogwash. You can't fire a coordinator without firing the head coach, and you can't fire the head coach without firing the GM. Everybody knows that. Sarcasm? I can't tell with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Sarcasm? I can't tell with you. I'm sure he was kidding... http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000596620/article/st-louis-rams-fire-oc-frank-cignetti-after-another-loss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted December 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Sarcasm? I can't tell with you. Not surprising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Bone Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Not surprising. Yep, I never could understand stupid......... My bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 so who owes what? didn't someone say everyone would be fired today end of biz? come on blowhards,,,,,where you at? Most Cleveland media are saying after the end of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted December 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Yep, I never could understand stupid......... My bad. It doesn't seem like you can really understand anything, it's not your fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Gip blowing it does fit with report in this or another thread that Tramon was pointing at Gip. As for the TE match up... With Eifert out, can't be all that scary. So? That is his excuse for covering the grass in front of him instead of the live human being wide receiver that is next to him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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