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The Quran - how is it that the world has such mass violence based on it?

calfoxwc

By calfoxwc
in POLITICAL DISCUSSION

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OldBrownsFan Newbie

OldBrownsFan

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Most people don't know the bible...no secret there. Again most of the verses of violence in the Old Testament are directed at a certain time at a certain place and not open ended like the verses in the koran are and that IS the problem here. The verses in the koran that speak of killing infidels where you find them are open ended and apply just as much today as when they were written.

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Osiris Newbie

Osiris

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Most people don't know the bible...no secret there. Again most of the verses of violence in the Old Testament are directed at a certain time at a certain place and not open ended like the verses in the koran are and that IS the problem here. The verses in the koran that speak of killing infidels where you find them are open ended and apply just as much today as when they were written.

 

This video quotes Timothy & Mathew which are New Testament. Furthermore, Timothy suggests that Old Testament teachings are considered completely valid when it says this:

 

"2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"

 

The New Testament also contains this:

 

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;…"

 

Now you will tell me that these took place at a certain time and place, and I will agree with you. I have repeatedly said the quotes from the Quran also took place at a certain time and place and context, and you will completely ignore it as you did last time.

 

I have no interest in tarnishing the Bible or Christianity. A good, loving Christian, Jew, Agnostic, Atheist, Budhist is more my brother than a hateful Muslim. I'm illustrating the point that you will take into account the circumstances of Bible verses because you are fond of Christianity or it is part of your identity, but you will not do the same thing for the Quran because you already hate Muslims.

 

I'll end this post with this:

 

r-CHURCHGODPREFERSKINDATHEISTS-600x275.j

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OldBrownsFan Newbie

OldBrownsFan

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Where is all the Islamic terrorism coming from? Who are the terrorists today inflicting so much misery on innocent people in the world? It is Islamic terrorism and these Islamic radicals use the koran to justify their evil deeds. There is no denying this. The Jews fight to keep a small piece of desert land in the Middle East and Christians are not engaged in world domination. Islamic radicals are and they have all the justification they need to cut off heads from their koran.

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OldBrownsFan Newbie

OldBrownsFan

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The New Testament also contains this:

 

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;…"

 

This is simply talking about it may cost a person his own family to be a follower of the Lord. I work with Jewish believers and it has cost them many times their family and their own families have turned on them because of believing in Jesus. This is what the bible calls rightly dividing the word.

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gftChris Newbie

gftChris

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This whole argument, every single time, is like:

 

"The quran is so full of violence! People can just take things and use it to justify violence!"

"So is the bible, there's lots of violence in the bible"

"Yeah, but, it's all about context, read the whole thing and you see how it's not about violence"

"Same with the quran, those parts talking about violence need to be taken in context"

"But the quran is so full of violence!"

 

Religious texts reflect the type of person you are. If you're a good person you will be inspired to do good; if you're a hateful person you will be inspired to hate.

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Osiris Newbie

Osiris

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Where is all the Islamic terrorism coming from?

 

Now you are asking the right question. Now ask, if both the Bible and Quran contain violent verses that when taken out of context can seem to promote violence, why is there more terrorism in the name of Islam than in the name of Christianity?

 

Yesterday I was talking to a Lebanese Christian friend about how her family had to leave Lebanon because of the civil war from 1975-1990. She said something that stood out:

 

"You and I both know that religion has nothing to do with war in the Middle East."

 

People who have lived there or are intimately familiar with it know this. It isn't a case of religion encouraging people to go to war. It's a case of people using religion to justify the war and violence they wish to conduct. Show me any war and I will show you how it is connected to power or resources: money, food, water, salt, oil, land, etc... There are few places on earth more devoid of resources than the Middle East. People have lived in the Middle East longer than most of the rest of the world, consuming the land's resources, and population growth is largely unchecked.

 

Now add to that the impact of British, French, Spanish, and American imperialism where those resources were further stripped and consumed by the occupying nations. Large parts of the Christian world don't have the resource problems that the Muslim world does and have not been impacted by imperialism.

 

Now let me ask you. Have you ever been poor? Have you ever had to count pennies? Have you ever been out on the street because of a lack of resources? It tends to make people pretty angry, and pretty desperate for a 'savior'. These are the kinds of people Daesh seek out and recruit, and in war-torn countries like Iraq and Syria, those people are plentiful.

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Osiris Newbie

Osiris

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This whole argument, every single time, is like:

 

"The quran is so full of violence! People can just take things and use it to justify violence!"

"So is the bible, there's lots of violence in the bible"

"Yeah, but, it's all about context, read the whole thing and you see how it's not about violence"

"Same with the quran, those parts talking about violence need to be taken in context"

"But the quran is so full of violence!"

 

Religious texts reflect the type of person you are. If you're a good person you will be inspired to do good; if you're a hateful person you will be inspired to hate.

 

Bingo.

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OldBrownsFan Newbie

OldBrownsFan

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Now you will tell me that these took place at a certain time and place, and I will agree with you. I have repeatedly said the quotes from the Quran also took place at a certain time and place and context, and you will completely ignore it as you did last time.

 

_______________________________________________________________________

 

Of course the verses of violence took place and a certain place and time but that is not my point. My point is they are open ended and apply just as much today as they did when they were written. Don't take my word for it look at what Islamic radicals are doing today.

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calfoxwc Grand Master

calfoxwc

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Os, with all due respect, I appreciate you stopping in and trying to explain. It's tough,

because I have no idea about the Koran/Quran.

 

But the question is valid - this is a world wide terror movement, claiming

the Koran as their all powerful weapon.

 

We don't see this anywhere else. It's just that. what IS the misunderstanding/deliberate

mininterpretation of the Koran, that tragically lends itself to radicalization ?

 

There are former radicals who decry what the Koran says, that enables this garbage,

and former Muslims who say that you know who was a very, very, very bad, vicious,

and immoral character for a historical figure. I just don't get it.

 

We don't see this giant, world wide vicious hellish terrorism with any other religion...

 

I wish I had some kind of understanding why this is happening. And, on edit,

I see that I just posted while you were posting - I appreciate that you are trying

to explain it. That helps.

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OldBrownsFan Newbie

OldBrownsFan

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Now let me ask you. Have you ever been poor? Have you ever had to count pennies? Have you ever been out on the street because of a lack of resources? It tends to make people pretty angry, and pretty desperate for a 'savior'. These are the kinds of people Daesh seek out and recruit, and in war-torn countries like Iraq and Syria, those people are plentiful.

 

______________________________________________

 

Jesus said we would always have the poor with us but for some reason other faiths don't use them as an excuse to go out and do evil deeds like Islam has done.

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gftChris Newbie

gftChris

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Come on, you cannot possibly be this dense. I don't often resort to personal attacks, but this is some serious dumb shit here.

 

You have on the one hand, islamic terrorists taking things out of context to justify terrorism, while the entire world tells them they have islam wrong, and you're saying it's the fault of the quran? Why then aren't there 1.6 billion terrorists since there's that many muslims in the world? Why are the main victims of radical islam muslims?

 

Because some seriously fucked up people have a seriously fucked up interpretation of the quran.

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OldBrownsFan Newbie

OldBrownsFan

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Come on, you cannot possibly be this dense. I don't often resort to personal attacks, but this is some serious dumb shit here.

 

You have on the one hand, islamic terrorists taking things out of context to justify terrorism, while the entire world tells them they have islam wrong, and you're saying it's the fault of the quran? Why then aren't there 1.6 billion terrorists since there's that many muslims in the world? Why are the main victims of radical islam muslims?

 

Because some seriously fucked up people have a seriously fucked up interpretation of the quran.

 

Get off your pompous English high horse. There has been polling done to show there are hundreds of millions of Muslims who condone or support terrorist groups like ISIS. Everyone is dense who doesn't who doesn't agree with Chris...OK.

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gftChris Newbie

gftChris

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Get off your pompous English high horse. There has been polling done to show there are hundreds of millions of Muslims who condone or support terrorist groups like ISIS. Everyone is dense who doesn't who doesn't agree with Chris...OK.

Tens* of millions of people living in backwards shit holes with little or no education and often lacking even reading comprehension.

 

Billions of people living around the world not supporting ISIS, and yet you and others continue to purport that it's just the muslim way, reading the kuran leads you to the natural conclusion that ISIS is the right thing to do.

 

Even in the poll you're quoting, the vast, vast majority of muslims condemn ISIS. Which is more likely, that the billions who condemn it understand the kuran properly, or the tens of millions who support it do?

 

It's not about disagreeing with me making you dense, it's you inability to apply your own logic to things in a consistent way. Plenty of people disagree with me but I don't think they're dense. Typical lib false victimisation...

 

*Tens, because your hundreds include those who 'don't know' - not exactly a show of overwhelming support.

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OldBrownsFan Newbie

OldBrownsFan

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Tens* of millions of people living in backwards shit holes with little or no education and often lacking even reading comprehension.

 

Billions of people living around the world not supporting ISIS, and yet you and others continue to purport that it's just the muslim way, reading the kuran leads you to the natural conclusion that ISIS is the right thing to do.

 

Even in the poll you're quoting, the vast, vast majority of muslims condemn ISIS. Which is more likely, that the billions who condemn it understand the kuran properly, or the tens of millions who support it do?

 

It's not about disagreeing with me making you dense, it's you inability to apply your own logic to things in a consistent way. Plenty of people disagree with me but I don't think they're dense. Typical lib false victimisation...

 

*Tens, because your hundreds include those who 'don't know' - not exactly a show of overwhelming support.

 

The poll said between 63 million to 287 million people (just out of 11 countries and if someone doesn't not know it is wrong to kill innocent people in the name of Islam that is a huge problem as well). Best case scenario tens of millions versus hundreds of millions the fact remains there are huge numbers of Muslims supporting terrorism and not some small insignificant amount. The open ended verses of violence in the koran is used for justification of evil (killing infidels) around the world. The koran itself is the problem.

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bbedward Proficient

bbedward

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I know a lot of muslims - they are good people. The majority of ones who are becoming "radicalized" are the ones over in the war torn and less educated countries in the middle east, maybe not a coincidence.

 

One guy I went to high school with is about to get his doctorate I believe, 2 guys from Saudi Arabia lived in my house for a bit in Toledo so there were always a bunch of other dudes over - they'd cook some pretty good food and were pretty fun.

 

Obviously islamic terrorism is a huge problem, but consider the fact that Isis has killed WAY more muslims than any other group.

 

It's not really an educated opinion to say "the quran is evil christianity is great because it's context" Every verse in the quran can be taken in similar historical contexts - such as the tribes who were attacking mohammed followers at the time.

 

Many people choose to take Christian/Jewish verses out of context, many choose to take Quran verses out of context.

 

Including Hitler, who was an "evangelical christian" at the time - and the crusades, about ~23 million people have been killed in the name of Christianity.

 

People still die in the name of Christianity, but maybe less so since most Western countries are more educated and pretty stable now.

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LogicIsForSquares Apprentice

LogicIsForSquares

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I know a lot of muslims - they are good people. The majority of ones who are becoming "radicalized" are the ones over in the war torn and less educated countries in the middle east, maybe not a coincidence.

 

One guy I went to high school with is about to get his doctorate I believe, 2 guys from Saudi Arabia lived in my house for a bit in Toledo so there were always a bunch of other dudes over - they'd cook some pretty good food and were pretty fun.

 

Obviously islamic terrorism is a huge problem, but consider the fact that Isis has killed WAY more muslims than any other group.

 

It's not really an educated opinion to say "the quran is evil christianity is great because it's context" Every verse in the quran can be taken in similar historical contexts - such as the tribes who were attacking mohammed followers at the time.

 

Many people choose to take Christian/Jewish verses out of context, many choose to take Quran verses out of context.

 

Including Hitler, who was an "evangelical christian" at the time - and the crusades, about ~23 million people have been killed in the name of Christianity.

 

People still die in the name of Christianity, but maybe less so since most Western countries are more educated and pretty stable now.

Oh I don't think all muslims are bad. However, I don't think they have a leg to stand on when it comes to trying to explain that the religion is peaceful when the guy who set the standard was prone to decapitating folks.

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OldBrownsFan Newbie

OldBrownsFan

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I know a lot of muslims - they are good people. The majority of ones who are becoming "radicalized" are the ones over in the war torn and less educated countries in the middle east, maybe not a coincidence.

 

One guy I went to high school with is about to get his doctorate I believe, 2 guys from Saudi Arabia lived in my house for a bit in Toledo so there were always a bunch of other dudes over - they'd cook some pretty good food and were pretty fun.

 

Obviously islamic terrorism is a huge problem, but consider the fact that Isis has killed WAY more muslims than any other group.

 

It's not really an educated opinion to say "the quran is evil christianity is great because it's context" Every verse in the quran can be taken in similar historical contexts - such as the tribes who were attacking mohammed followers at the time.

 

Many people choose to take Christian/Jewish verses out of context, many choose to take Quran verses out of context.

 

Including Hitler, who was an "evangelical christian" at the time - and the crusades, about ~23 million people have been killed in the name of Christianity.

 

People still die in the name of Christianity, but maybe less so since most Western countries are more educated and pretty stable now.

 

I agree that people have done evil in the name of about all religions (and if not in the name of religion humans find other ways to justify evil deeds) but it is the scale of terrorism being done today in the name of Allah that stands out above all others. Radical Islam does prey on uneducated people in third world countries (most likely the saps they get to wear a suicide bomb) but there are also many educated Muslims involved some of whom are from Europe and the United States. I don't believe for a second Hitler was a Christian and the crusades are not a good comparison in that this happened many centuries ago and there are no crusades today. If we are honest the main problem with the terrorism today is coming from one religion. I'm not saying others have not and are not doing evil I am speaking of the scale and amount coming from one religion over all others. The only way to really fight the problem is to be honest about it and there are way too many Muslims supporting terror groups like ISIS. Not all, not even close to a majority but still in the hundreds of millions range. Too many.

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MLD Woody Grand Master

MLD Woody

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How many Muslims from educated, developed countries have done terrible things as a part of ISIS. You said "many", so I'm curious.

 

Why do you say Hitler wasn't a Christian?

 

 

Look at the twitter posts I showed where educated Christians from America showed support for a terrorist attack by a Christian (PP shooting). Now try that in an uneducated, poor, third world country.

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Osiris Newbie

Osiris

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Get off your pompous English high horse. There has been polling done to show there are hundreds of millions of Muslims who condone or support terrorist groups like ISIS. Everyone is dense who doesn't who doesn't agree with Chris...OK.

 

 

Right, the fact that people join the group indicates that people are supporting it. This does not mean that the Quran itself supports their actions. As Chris said, good people will find motivation for good deeds in their religious texts, and bad people will find motivation for bad deeds in their religious texts. Were you to conduct the same poll of Christians during the Crusades you would get similar results.

Tens* of millions of people living in backwards shit holes with little or no education and often lacking even reading comprehension.

 

Billions of people living around the world not supporting ISIS, and yet you and others continue to purport that it's just the muslim way, reading the kuran leads you to the natural conclusion that ISIS is the right thing to do.

 

Even in the poll you're quoting, the vast, vast majority of muslims condemn ISIS. Which is more likely, that the billions who condemn it understand the kuran properly, or the tens of millions who support it do?

 

It's not about disagreeing with me making you dense, it's you inability to apply your own logic to things in a consistent way. Plenty of people disagree with me but I don't think they're dense. Typical lib false victimisation...

 

*Tens, because your hundreds include those who 'don't know' - not exactly a show of overwhelming support.

 

Bingo again. As I've stated before, the illiterate can not hope to understand the Quran and are vulnerable to people who would give them a corrupted message.

 

 

The poll said between 63 million to 287 million people (just out of 11 countries and if someone doesn't not know it is wrong to kill innocent people in the name of Islam that is a huge problem as well). Best case scenario tens of millions versus hundreds of millions the fact remains there are huge numbers of Muslims supporting terrorism and not some small insignificant amount. The open ended verses of violence in the koran is used for justification of evil (killing infidels) around the world. The koran itself is the problem.

 

It is indeed a huge problem, as the Quran explicitly states that killing innocent people is wrong. The verses in the Quran are not open-ended, so I don't know why you keep repeating that. Furthermore, the Quran refers to Jews and Christians as The People of the Book and includes them among the believers (in other words, the opposite of 'infidel'). On the other hand, a Catholic once told me I was going to hell for not being a Chrisitan...

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