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Orchard covering Boldin


LondonBrown

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Wouldn't it be a better scheme to have a pro-bowl safety playing against their best WR, in the slot, then a rookie pass rushing OLB?

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You know what....Im out....

 

Our defense kicked ass today....the team won because of it....the Linebackers had their best game of the year, including Orchard....they had 5 sacks and the most tackles in game yet this year.....

 

.......and all you want to do is hack away at the coach because of some off hand(and incorrect) comment by Brady Quinn.....and one play that made zero difference in the game...

 

Lame as it gets....have fun....learn something about football....it'll do ya good....

 

Ima go enjoy the win.....

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HA!....I couldnt agree more......

 

They've cut his snaps by about 30 per game and, for the first time, today Armonty played the most.....Kruger has 5 tackles and 2 sacks in the last 7 games....TODAY Armonty had 7 tackles and 2 sacks....one game...

 

To be fair, SF is shit. You know I like Armonty, but the big game he had today had alot to do with how bad SF is. The Browns are not a team that are going to be dropping 10 sacks on even an avg team...as is evidenced by this season right?

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You know what....Im out....

 

Our defense kicked ass today....the team won because of it....the Linebackers had their best game of the year, including Orchard....they had 5 sacks and the most tackles in game yet this year.....

 

.......and all you want to do is hack away at the coach because of some off hand(and incorrect) comment by Brady Quinn.....and one play that made zero difference in the game...

 

Lame as it gets....have fun....learn something about football....it'll do ya good....

 

Ima go enjoy the win.....

I think 24 points from the offense helped.

 

Prior to this game, San Fran was scoring 14.8 points per game.

 

I agree the defense performed better than they had been, but don't act like this game was hinged on a strong defensive performance. We held a bad team to 4 points less than what they averaged per game...a bad team that has had to travel east two weeks in a row.

 

If you want to defend the coaches, that's fine. But don't get butthurt when you're the only one.

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In a 3-4 typical defense the Jack OLB is primarily a pass rusher. That requires a physique that isn't ideal for pass coverage. I don't mind the occasional zone coverage for an OLB but it didn't look like Orchard or Armonty Bryant vs Cinci were in zone coverage. If there are so many receivers out there that you need to put an OLB in coverage than maybe we should be in a nickel defense or dime defense. It's all about mismatches and I don't see the sense in making the opposing offenses job easier. We don't run a 4-3 defense where the OLB is expected to cover more.

 

I agree with this. Although I've given up trying to figure out who the jack and who the will is in our scheme. I don't think Oneil even knows. And it's not like it's some kind of "brilliant subterfuge" as evidenced by the fact that nearly every time we've tried it, we've gotten BURNED! This started back in preseason when I saw Kruger try and run with a TE across the middle on a 3rd and 15 against Buffalo....they converted it because, well, Kruger isn't a pass covering linebacker.

 

Some of you know full well I was screaming last year about why do we have two jack's on the field at the same time with Kruger and Sheard. And when we continued to do it this year I was still besides myself, it opens up way too many mismatches. In a 3-4 your will OLB'er HAS to be a smaller cover type that is also a speed rushing threat. That is Mingo. And if they didn't like Mingo they should have gotten another like him. You protect that will OLB'er in the run game with the 5 tech on his side. THe Jack is expected to be able to hold up on his own because he's more or less a slightly smaller DE that is athletic enough to drop back in zone. This defense is all over the place with it's personnel setups, if it worked consistently i'd have no complaints. We won today and that's great, but it's more because we played the one team in the league that at least right now with are more bereft of talent than we are...injuries included though.

 

Quinn was right to question that matchup. If it happened because we got substitutions mixed up or someone couldn't come into the game...hey fine you do with what you got. But we know now this is a willful scheme thing with this defense because we've seen it a number of times this year. And it makes no sense. It doesn't work. It will not work, not this year or the year after. A 260+ pound man isn't going to "learn the scheme" better to track men across the field many of whom run legit 4.3's. We'd be laughing our balls off if someone put a DE on Benjamin.

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I think 24 points from the offense helped.

 

Prior to this game, San Fran was scoring 14.8 points per game.

 

I agree the defense performed better than they had been, but don't act like this game was hinged on a strong defensive performance. We held a bad team to 4 points less than what they averaged per game...a bad team that has had to travel east two weeks in a row.

 

If you want to defend the coaches, that's fine. But don't get butthurt when you're the only one.

Q: Under Gabbert their scoring has been???

A: Up slightly to 17.3 ppg...

 

And SF's defense was averaging 24.3 ppg allowed... so don't pretend a strong offensive showing paved the way to victory.

 

As for being the only one... he's not. Mud's just the only one to put together detailed support cases on the defensive side... the kind of cases you enjoy making and debating.

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Yeah I think if he's befuddled than that says something. Isn't the Tampa 2 named after his 4-3 defense?

You and 149 are kidding, right?

 

You both know Gruden never coached D in his collegiate/Pro life... strickly coached Offense, right?

 

And you know the Tampa 2 was the brain child of Dungy and his DC, Lane Kiffin... You know the HC that Jon replaced, but was smart enough to keep his DC?

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You and 149 are kidding, right?

 

You both know Gruden never coached D in his collegiate/Pro life... strickly coached Offense, right?

 

And you know the Tampa 2 was the brain child of Dungy and his DC, Lane Kiffin... You know the HC that Jon replaced, but was smart enough to keep his DC?

 

no I didn't know htat, I thought Gruden was a D guy.

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Ha.....and just to see and, hopefully, settle it...I just found and watched the play again.....over and over....

 

1st down(following a punt)....and they have run personel with 2 wr, 2 te and a rb.....we counter with standard 3-4-4....

 

they break huddle and every man goes to the line, with the QB in an empty backfield....meaning 5 receiver set....

 

our guys adjust.....CB's take the wides.....inside backers take the TE's and orchard takes the slot(Kruger is rushing)....Gipson and Dansby play back 5 yards - spread and wait to play the ball.....

 

When snapped...Orchard looks to have first 5 yards of responsibility, with Gipsonright behind and coming up to play the ball...

 

To me.....defensed perfectly personnel wise and really the only option...which is why Brady Quinn comes off like a dumb ass.....didnt even see it was a 5 receiver set/////

That sounds like "graduate level" stuff Mud...

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Maybe i'm not remembering the play right but was't Orchard up at the line? Playing tight bump and run? I'm perfectly ok with him dropping into a zone and possibly giving up a short pass to Boldin but keeping him infront of him. If that's what was gonna happen hey fine, no complaints from me. But as we've seen a couple times this season, Oneil's put our OLB'ers in man coverage against slot wr's.

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Maybe i'm not remembering the play right but was't Orchard up at the line? Playing tight bump and run? I'm perfectly ok with him dropping into a zone and possibly giving up a short pass to Boldin but keeping him infront of him. If that's what was gonna happen hey fine, no complaints from me. But as we've seen a couple times this season, Oneil's put our OLB'ers in man coverage against slot wr's.

same difference.....the safeties were playing zone(safety valves) and it was a quick 4 yd slant and Orchard really just had to bump him off the line....like I said, Gipson was right there(10 yards off the line & 5yds behind Orchard and Gaines) to pick up coverage or make the tackle, depending on which one the ball went to.....

 

By design, we were set to prevent the long pass and keep things underneath....and it worked.....

 

3 plays later, the series was over.......honestly. the ONLY reason this thread is even here is because Brady Quinn made a stupid comment.....

 

We used our OLBs to cover 10 other pass routes, but no one is taking about that....why?.....because the TV talking heads didnt point it out for them and because the plays worked like they are supposed to....

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I would guess Jon Gruden knows more about defenses then ANYONE on this forum. Being an offensive coach means he studies defenses. And when he says the Browns defense is playing something he doesn't know what it was, I will take his word for it

 

Almost everyone on here thinks Bernie can pick apart a defense. But he's an offensive guy so what does he know

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Of course Gruden was smart to keep Kiffin as def cord in Tampa. If Gruden came here do you think he's keep O'neil? No way

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Brady Quinn is a doofus...

 

Look...OLBs have to cover....at least one on every play....thats what they do.....so if it's not Orchard, its gonna be Kruger or Armonty or Mingo....

 

Everybodies popular choice is Mingo...but then you're playing your worst backer every play....so instead, we use Orchard, Kruger and Armonty more often...but ONE of ems gonna have to cover...

 

And on the play in question?....Orchard had decent coverage, just gabbbed the guy....it happens...

....

BQ is a dumbass and didnt understand defenses...THAT s why he sucked...

So, what are the cornerbacks and safeties? Potted plants? The opponents best WR probably being covered by a LB only is absurd.

Should they be giving help coverage? Sure....but not primary coverage.

They should be covering RBs coming out on the field.

And hell, if it is a "passing down" then you would have the nickel defense in, no? 5 DBs.

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So, what are the cornerbacks and safeties? Potted plants? The opponents best WR probably being covered by a LB only is absurd.

Should they be giving help coverage? Sure....but not primary coverage.

They should be covering RBs coming out on the field.

And hell, if it is a "passing down" then you would have the nickel defense in, no? 5 DBs.

It wasn't a "passing" down, as Ive already said several times......it was 1st down, deep in their own territory and they had run personnel in.....2 te's and RB.....which is gonna be a run the high percentage of the time.....you dont normally play nickle personnel against 2 TE's and a RB....

 

and Orchard only had him for the first few yards, with Gipson right there to take the route.....

 

Again...there were 5 receivers at the line(and an empty backfield)).....we defensed it to keep the pass underneath and not allow a big gain....and it worked....

 

yet, somehow, it didnt?......

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It wasn't a "passing" down, as Ive already said several times......it was 1st down, deep in their own territory and they had run personnel in.....2 te's and RB.....which is gonna be a run the high percentage of the time.....you dont normally play nickle personnel against 2 TE's and a RB....

 

OK, fine...the LBs should be covering the TEs/RB

 

and Orchard only had him for the first few yards, with Gipson right there to take the route.....

OK, then...he really just was providing "help" not primary coverage?

 

Again...there were 5 receivers at the line(and an empty backfield)).....we defensed it to keep the pass underneath and not allow a big gain....and it worked....

I thought you just said they had 2 TEs and a RB.....not it is 5 WRs.....which is it?

 

yet, somehow, it didnt?......

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I would guess Jon Gruden knows more about defenses then ANYONE on this forum. Being an offensive coach means he studies defenses. And when he says the Browns defense is playing something he doesn't know what it was, I will take his word for it

 

Almost everyone on here thinks Bernie can pick apart a defense. But he's an offensive guy so what does he know

Of course Gruden was smart to keep Kiffin as def cord in Tampa. If Gruden came here do you think he's keep O'neil? No way

When cornered... attack!

 

Two questions:

When was the last time Gruden devised a game plan?

In that time have Defenses remained stagnant?

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What attack?

 

It was stated Gruden doesn't know defenses, because he was an offensive coach. And that's false.

 

And I agreed that Gruden was smart for keeping Kiffin.

 

 

How is that attacking anyone?

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When cornered... attack!

 

Two questions:

When was the last time Gruden devised a game plan?

In that time have Defenses remained stagnant?

Generally, yeah. There are new wrinkles added week-by-week, sure. But in general that last defensive "breakthrough" was really the Tampa 2. There was a cool spot on this exact topic probably two years ago, actually.

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It wasn't a "passing" down, as Ive already said several times......it was 1st down, deep in their own territory and they had run personnel in.....2 te's and RB.....which is gonna be a run the high percentage of the time.....you dont normally play nickle personnel against 2 TE's and a RB....

 

and Orchard only had him for the first few yards, with Gipson right there to take the route.....

 

Again...there were 5 receivers at the line(and an empty backfield)).....we defensed it to keep the pass underneath and not allow a big gain....and it worked....

 

yet, somehow, it didnt?......

 

See, this is why I asked for a screen shot.

 

If the opposition comes out in '12' personnel then You're probably going to find us in something along of the lines of our base defense.

 

If our Dline and LB play was where most of us would want it to be - then you'd find many coordinators also look at using a big nickel in those situations. Especially in today's NFL where inline TE's just don't have the heart to block (most of the time)

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I would guess Jon Gruden knows more about defenses then ANYONE on this forum. Being an offensive coach means he studies defenses. And when he says the Browns defense is playing something he doesn't know what it was, I will take his word for it

 

Almost everyone on here thinks Bernie can pick apart a defense. But he's an offensive guy so what does he know

First off while I am not really a Gruden fan I do agree with you that he know more about defense than anyone on this forum.

 

Now this not necessarily directed at Browns149 but more at every one who has brought up the Gruden commit on not knowing what defense the Browns were playing. It was sarcasm if you remember the play the Ravens receiver was so wide open it was ridiculous and while I'm yelling at the TV "what the fuck kind of defense was that", Gruden was being a little more kind with his words.

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See, this is why I asked for a screen shot.

 

If the opposition comes out in '12' personnel then You're probably going to find us in something along of the lines of our base defense.

 

If our Dline and LB play was where most of us would want it to be - then you'd find many coordinators also look at using a big nickel in those situations. Especially in today's NFL where inline TE's just don't have the heart to block (most of the time)

They did come in with 12 personnel and had run on 7 of 10 first downs....many with the same personnel group...

 

I cant get my screen shot to load(says that extension doesnt work here)....but here it is in small form....hopefully you can see it....

\

 

post-28424-0-32600100-1450195044_thumb.png

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They did come in with 12 personnel and had run on 7 of 10 first downs....many with the same personnel group...

 

I cant get my screen shot to load(says that extension doesnt work here)....but here it is in small form....hopefully you can see it....

\

 

attachicon.gifScreenshot_2.png

Since you have the play up, would you mind pointing out who is whom and where they started? Because if they're in 12 personal, I wouldn't expect a WR in the slot, and a RB/TE outside. Is the outside receiver on their left/our right a WR?

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Ok.....what you have are the RB and a WR split wide and covered by our CB's.....which makes sense to me.....

 

The 2 TE's are inside and covered by Dansby and Robertson......(Kruger is lined up to rush the passer)......

 

And then you have the WR in the slot with Orchard......

 

Note: Whitner and Gipson are playing back and splitting the LB coverage.......and the LB's are lined up outside their respective players, trying to funnel them inside where there is safety help waiting.....

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