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Farmer and Pettine both fired. Official


DieHardBrownsFan

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No, some of this board mistakenly describes the browns as having a good offense. In about half their games this year they have scored a ridiculously low number of non garbage time points.

 

in the new York, Denver, st Louis, cincinatti, Pittsburgh, Kansas city, and seattle game the offense blew goats....that's almost half the games right there. In a few other games(like Arizona) the offense was dreadful for 60% of the game. I'm including the Denver game because the offense only scored 17 pts in a game where we had an ot possession *and* were set up multiple times inside the 50. That's a very poor points total given the game situations that took place.

 

How you take this to be a 'good' offense is beyond me.

 

The defense has sucked this year. But for much of the season so has the offense.

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As I have said often enough I vote for continuity. That being said why does he get a pass for this shitso defense?

Pet got his job here because he was a defensive coordinator.

On top of that O'Neill is his old assistant. Coach can't just take him aside and point out things that are fucked up?

I don't mind passing on a little benefit of the doubt but he wasn't hired to be an intern, he was hired to be the head coach.

 

WSS

 

We're not that far apart Steve. This is just what's behind my current angle on it all today.

 

I'll begin with your part in bold. Nobody had a pistol to Jimmy's temple saying you HAVE to avoid the interest level and experience volume of a Bruce Arians. I'm not sure why you want to blame Mike Pettine for Jimmy's decision to snub Arians but something compelled you to do so. If anything, this is a good enough warning Jimmy remains just as capable of missing the next type of Bruce Arians out there.

 

Moving on, I don't feel like asking Pettine to fire all our defensive coaches and most likely our STs Coach would be giving him a pass. I feel like it gives him the same 1 more chance you want Manziel getting at the end of his 2nd season here. Why would I feel he deserves 1 more chance?

 

Could it be that the person in charge (Farmer) of who Pettine plays gridiron chess with didn't understand who Khalil Mack was any more than he understood who Justin Gilbert was? That's just as terrifying as the Exorcist.

 

Furthermore, if I didn't see a 7-4 start response to the 2013 train wreck in spite of an absurd injury volume that put 3 Pro Bowl players on IR in 2014 (Mack, Gordon, Cameron) - I'd be more inclined to keep my earlier knee jerk of wanting Pettine to join Farmer in take a hikesies. At least the first year, Pettine could work around Farmer's land mines to the tune of play like a Brown. 1 more year of Farmer eclipsing progress as well as Pettine's bad choice of defensive coaches here and it just wasn't possible in 2015. Is it human or rational to understand that a 7-9 season that had the highest % of competitive football games we've seen since 2007 gave the staff of that bend don't break defense from 2014 the right for the chance to try to improve in 2015? Unfortunately such a view backfired for 2015 and Pettine has acknowledged he understands he has to upgrade coaches. My take is adding another former Baltimore Defensive Coach like Chuck Pagano as our DC plus his defensive assistants from Indy takes career of all that real quick all the way down to NFL experience volumes of staff.

 

I'm not any happier than you about the defense in 2015 or a Rookie Head Coach's decisions as to whom he would employ to coach it up. That said, the selection of coaches on the offensive side of the ball (except for Moeller) seemed to be pretty good ideas. Any complaints about McCown? Thomas? Duke? Barnidge? Benjamin? Mack? Schwartz? - How about Greco playing the best football of his career in 2014? Craig Robertson also filled in admirably enough to make me wonder if he didn't outright upgrade Karlos Dansby down the stretch of 2014. Even Kruger had a career high of 11 sacks in sacks in 2014 plus his hit on Brees gave us a pic 6 that we needed in a very close win. An undrafted Gipson made the Pro Bowl in 2014 so there were enough silver linings to shape where I'm at right now.

 

It'll be interesting to see how many of Farmer's draft choices in 2013 and 2014 are still playing in the NFL a few years from now while guys from previous regimes like Phil Taylor, Bark Mingo, Jordan Cameron, Josh Gordon haven't quite given us this elusive sense of continuity . Again, if you want you want get an idea of what it's like to play gridiron chess in Cleveland - go challenge someone to a game of chess where you only get to attack with your pawns while your opponent gets to play at full strength. Let me know how easy it is to look brilliant with the pawns.

 

The alternative to keeping Pettine is to race back to Jimmy's hiring criteria where a lot of his previous Head Coaching candidates like Whis and Kelly need jobs while Arians was ignorantly snubbed here. Sound like a better thing to trust? This alternative plus keeping Farmer looks like it can cause greater collateral damage than upgrading our defensive staff moving forward.

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No, some of this board mistakenly describes the browns as having a good offense. In about half their games this year they have scored a ridiculously low number of non garbage time points.

 

in the new York, Denver, st Louis, cincinatti, Pittsburgh, Kansas city, and seattle game the offense blew goats....that's almost half the games right there. In a few other games(like Arizona) the offense was dreadful for 60% of the game. I'm including the Denver game because the offense only scored 17 pts in a game where we had an ot possession *and* were set up multiple times inside the 50. That's a very poor points total given the game situations that took place.

 

How you take this to be a 'good' offense is beyond me.

 

The defense has sucked this year. But for much of the season so has the offense.

Yep. It's "good offense" between the 20s for the most part. I just think most of us were surprised the offense wasn't the weak link this season.

 

In spite of that, I'd still prefer a top defensive player with our 1st draft pick in April.

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I don't think it matters if he is the hottest coaching candidate for the upcoming offseason. If you are going to fire Farmer, you need to get your GM first and have him hit the ground running to find a coach. Do NOT hire a coach then a GM after again. That is what got us in this mess, it is why we are always in this mess. Hire someone as a GM, let them run shit. If they don't work out, then fire/hire a new GM, and keep letting them make football decisions. I already do NOT like Haslems ability to hire a GM, but I'd prefer the input on a GM who we have zero clue about his hiring abilities than Haslem right now.

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If I owned this team, and increased my investment the way Jimmy has, I would go after whoever is at the top of my list

 

Give him $15 million a year and tell him you have COMPLETE control.

 

If you want to coach, so be it, if you want to hire a coach, so be it.

 

Just fix this CRAP!!!!!!!

No no no.

 

Marty had complete control, we went backwards. Coaching is hard enough, you can't play GM at the same time (Chip Kelly).

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How you take this to be a 'good' offense is beyond me.

 

The defense has sucked this year. But for much of the season so has the offense.

Maybe you have limited interpretive skills, I dunno.....Ill explain for you....my point was that the offense performed better than the defense, and that was opposite of the pre-season expectation.....

 

hence.... "over achieving" vs "under performing" ......get it now?

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Maybe you have limited interpretive skills, I dunno.....Ill explain for you....my point was that the offense performed better than the defense, and that was opposite of the pre-season expectation.....

 

hence.... "over achieving" vs "under performing" ......get it now?

 

No, I don't have limited interpretive skills. You do in this case. In the very post above you confuse under/overperforming with the offense being better than the defense. It's not an either/or thing. Even if the offense has performed better than the defense, that is a separate issue than the offense under or overperforming.

 

We are a 3-12 team, with all our wins coming against terrible teams. No unit has overachieved. Offense and defense have both been bad. The fact that one unit may have been better than another doesn't mean they both haven't sucked.

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I think Farmer is the #1 reason we haven't been able to do anything this year. I know Petine has a say in who we draft, but Farmer had the ability to draft who he damn well pleases. A back up Guard who can't do shit with a 1st round pick? 4th round WR that can't make it out of the preseason and no other team will even think of touching. We had 12 picks this year and who out of that group made any real contribution to the team other than Shelton? How about our 2 first round picks from the year before? We can't even get our top 10 CB on the fireld! This doesn't even mention the $12 million contract given to a WR who isn't good enough to be activated for games.

 

This thing is, if Farmer goes, I think you have to let Petine go. I think he could do better if he wiped most of his defensive staff and some of his offensive staff, but I don't want to hire another GM who has to come in and keep a coach he didn't hire. Let the GM hire the coach.

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Wolf is promising, wouldn't have been promoted by the Packers if that wasn't the case. Expect an out clause in the contract though, he's going to head back to GB once Thompson retires in 2018 if he does well.

 

Interesting. Here's a little devil's advocate: If he leaves his father's shadow and rights this ship - that'll be the closest thing anyone has ever seen to walking on water. Why would he hurry back to the shadow of success before him in lieu of the path he's earned elsewhere?

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No no no.

 

Marty had complete control, we went backwards. Coaching is hard enough, you can't play GM at the same time (Chip Kelly).

Bill Belichick doesn't seem to have trouble with it

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Maybe you have limited interpretive skills, I dunno.....Ill explain for you....my point was that the offense performed better than the defense, and that was opposite of the pre-season expectation.....

 

hence.... "over achieving" vs "under performing" ......get it now?

That reasoning doesn't work very well. Our rushing offense was expected to be a top 10 unit this year, we were ranked near last in the NFL. Our passing offense wasn't expected to be better than last year... and it really didn't get any better or worse. Just cause you have a TE who comes damn near out of no where, it doesn't mean that our offense shouldn't be touched. Our RB, WR, and OL units got worse.Should we really keep those coaches?

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The biggest evil here has to be a personnel guy that doesn't even know who Khalil Mack is any more than he knows who Justin Gilbert is. He's had 4 first round picks in just 2 years with only 1 of them looking like he can eventually justify the draft value.

My memory has him dumping most of the scouts from the 2014 draft, who were all hold overs from Banner Lombardi

 

Here's some things I'd like to know about Farmer since he's responsible for our personnel:

 

Who does he have working for him in the scouting dept?

I have no clue who they are, but as stated above, they are "now" his guys.

 

How much does he weigh their time, energy and research?

No idea who plays what role

 

Does he have enough scouts since 7 of 12 darftees came from 1 conference?

That was pretty interesting there....makes you feel like too much time in one place and not enough time in some others...

 

Does he know the difference between best football ahead vrs best football in the rear view mirror (ie; Dwayne Bowe)?

Um Dwayne Bowe?.......and, though some are decent players, our Free Agent acquisitions have been McCown, Bowe, Austin, Dansby, Tramon, Starks, Whitner, Hartline, Burleson.....ALL of whom are past their best years.....(no "star FA's" yet)

 

Plus we tap second string guys and act like we just scored a major coup by signing up some stars......Hawkins?....Tate?...Kruger?....Housler?....

 

And....Ill add.....no good FA's at areas of really strong need......some of our best signing have been closer to lateral moves, because they replaced some already decent players, instead of "bad" players......Id admit that Whitner, Dansby, Starks, Tramon were all slight upgrades ....but not huge steps up from Ward, Jackson, Ruben or Skrine......

 

So, Id summarize Farmers FA deals as.....short lateral baby steps being taken by older men.....plus, a bunch of complete busts

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Interesting. Here's a little devil's advocate: If he leaves his father's shadow and rights this ship - that'll be the closest thing anyone has ever seen to walking on water. Why would he hurry back to the shadow of success before him in lieu of the path he's earned elsewhere?

 

 

That's a great point, I'd say it depends on his motivation. You can be the head of arguably the greatest NFL franchise, with no ownership to answer to and a team president who will give you plenty of time to succeed. You have final say on the head coach and roster and the chance to lead a new era in Packer football since Rodgers will be close to retirement. You can continue your father's legacy with the team that gave you started your career with or stick with the team you've build in Cleveland.

 

Of course he'll be competing for the job with John Schneider and John Dorsey so there's no certainty he'll be getting it.

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I'm not sure what Bruce Arians has to do with it and I'm not demanding the coach fire all his defensive assistance. I'm just saying if the defense sucks having had some experience at the position, should have gone to his mate and said hey let's do this or let's not do that.

 

And yes it would be nice to have Khalil Mack and yes we missed on Gilbert. But I don't remember anybody around the draft saying wait wait wait Gilbert is a train wreck!

 

Still, no matter what, it doesn't have much to do with the quarterback position.

 

And one more time fine another year. The excuses are going to be harder to listen to in 2016.

 

WSS

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The biggest evil here has to be a personnel guy that doesn't even know who Khalil Mack is any more than he knows who Justin Gilbert is. He's had 4 first round picks in just 2 years with only 1 of them looking like he can eventually justify the draft value.

My memory has him dumping most of the scouts from the 2014 draft, who were all hold overs from Banner Lombardi

 

Here's some things I'd like to know about Farmer since he's responsible for our personnel:

 

Who does he have working for him in the scouting dept?

I have no clue who they are, but as stated above, they are "now" his guys.

 

How much does he weigh their time, energy and research?

No idea who plays what role

 

Does he have enough scouts since 7 of 12 darftees came from 1 conference?

That was pretty interesting there....makes you feel like too much time in one place and not enough time in some others...

 

Does he know the difference between best football ahead vrs best football in the rear view mirror (ie; Dwayne Bowe)?

Um Dwayne Bowe?.......and, though some are decent players, our Free Agent acquisitions have been McCown, Bowe, Austin, Dansby, Tramon, Starks, Whitner, Hartline, Burleson.....ALL of whom are past their best years.....(no "star FA's" yet)

 

Plus we tap second string guys and act like we just scored a major coup by signing up some stars......Hawkins?....Tate?...Kruger?....Housler?....

 

And....Ill add.....no good FA's at areas of really strong need......some of our best signing have been closer to lateral moves, because they replaced some already decent players, instead of "bad" players......Id admit that Whitner, Dansby, Starks, Tramon were all slight upgrades ....but not huge steps up from Ward, Jackson, Ruben or Skrine......

 

So, Id summarize Farmers FA deals as.....short lateral baby steps being taken by older men.....plus, a bunch of complete busts

 

Thanks Mud!

 

The hard thing about Skrine if anyone can see it like Travis Benjamin is you spend all this time committing patience, training and growing pains to hopefully celebrating the return value on your investment. Skrine runs 4.3s and is a great open field tackler that I'm guessing we could have kept considering how much green went toilet bound on Bowe knows paid vacation. This guy even tackled well despite playing through a slight shoulder separation. Bad move to let a team that didn't even need him take him away. He wasn't perfect and he had some tendencies to grab when he got gassed but experience, tackling and know-how wouldn't have been the issue we're seeing from other corners filling in here this year.

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I'd vote fire both and keep flip. hire an experienced coach. Hire a kickass GM.

You don't keep an OC as the OC. You don't do that to HC candidates. You hire an HC and let him decide who, if anyone, he holds over from the prior regime.

 

Just pay the money

 

It isn't our money, and the team is worth Almost DOUBLE what Jimmy paid for it.

Easier to just offer one of your prized HC candidates a piece of the team...

 

The problem is that despite the bluster and the pontifications on this board we really don't know anything about the personal dynamics among the three key players.

Agree, but would be shocked if Jimmah did not already have a good sense of this. It is the one thing he should definitely have a feel for when it comes to his direct reports. It has to have been a major piece of the retreat effort in early 2015.

 

 

My Bottom Line: I fire Farmer...

 

As pointed out above ultimately the talent decisions are his. I hated his weird, mid-year presser and all of its movie references. I hated his portrayal of every personnel decision being mutually agreed by all. That's not owning his job... his responsibility. Consensus building is not what earns him his paycheck.

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"I hated his portrayal of every personnel decision being mutually agreed by all. That's not owning his job... his responsibility."

 

There it is for me in a nutshell Tour. I could not stand that mealy mouthed comment trying to spread the blame around for what belongs squarely on his plate as GM.

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Please, fire him. Pettine, along with McNeil will be back in Buffalo within minutes..

As in Rex will snap up Pet as his DC?

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I really think Pettine will be back next year, I think there was a lot going on behind the curtains we do not know about and shit is going to hit the fan in the off season, But I do believe Pettine is safe. I may be wrong but our whole front office and team is just about to come unglued ;and we will just have to sit and watch

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See....I dont even get these rumors......(and what does "extensive work" mean????).....

 

The Browns are described as having an over achieving offense, with Flip being one of the season bright spots....

 

And a team with an under performing defense.....which is the primary reason this team isnt winning.....

 

So.....good offense - bad defense.....and the rumor is that we want to hire an offensive coach to fix it?....

 

Ok...... :wacko:

I think we just need a good HEAD COACH....regardless if he is offense or defense oriented.

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No, some of this board mistakenly describes the browns as having a good offense. In about half their games this year they have scored a ridiculously low number of non garbage time points.

 

in the new York, Denver, st Louis, cincinatti, Pittsburgh, Kansas city, and seattle game the offense blew goats....that's almost half the games right there. In a few other games(like Arizona) the offense was dreadful for 60% of the game. I'm including the Denver game because the offense only scored 17 pts in a game where we had an ot possession *and* were set up multiple times inside the 50. That's a very poor points total given the game situations that took place.

 

How you take this to be a 'good' offense is beyond me.

 

The defense has sucked this year. But for much of the season so has the offense.

I guess it is the theory of relativity. In relation to our defense our offense seemed good....not in relation to other offenses around the league.

(That said....the defense played well enough to win vs San Fran....and vs. KC....but the offense only showed up on one of those games)

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Wolf is promising, wouldn't have been promoted by the Packers if that wasn't the case. Expect an out clause in the contract though, he's going to head back to GB once Thompson retires in 2018 if he does well.

Why would he do that if he was really having success here? The tradition of the Browns is nearly as great as the traditions of the Packers.....plus....it is Green Bay. Nice small town. Nothing against it. Like it very much.

But there is no reason to go back there if you are really hitting home runs in Cleveland....which has about an equal rabid fan base.

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