jiggins7919 Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Red zone scoring has been a problem for us ALL year, regardless of who our QB is. Has anybody else noticed that when we get down to either the red zone or even just before it that we NEVER throw the ball in the end zone? And when I say never, I mean I can barely remember ANY times where we attempted a pass in the damn pay dirt. I understand that the field gets compressed, and windows are smaller, but I'm so sick and tired of trying to scheme our way into the end zone. Obviously we threw it to Gary for a TD, but how many other times did we take a shot? Remember against the Jets and the Titans how Johnny came out early and completed deep passes for TD's? In the time we've seen Johnny play, how many passes like that have we seen? Nobody expects an 80 yard TD bomb every game, but I DO expect for an offense to take a few shots. Yes, Johnny has been under severe duress due to heavy blitzing and at times suspect OL, but that doesn't excuse the severe lack of aggressive passes. Before anyone crucifies me, I have not seen the film, and I do not know if we had any opportunities. Maybe the opposing defenses had double coverage deep every time, and we couldn't afford to risk a turnover, but even that isn't a good excuse for NEVER throwing it deep. Take a deep shot that either our guy or nobody gets. Maybe we get a huge pass interference call, or maybe *gasp* we complete the damn thing. We don't have the best receivers, I think that's been well documented. But what we do have are a couple of guys that can get deep, especially Benji. And this last game we had Gabriel back, so there's another guy that runs a solid deep route. Yet we don't ever see it. Ever. And it's not just about throwing a bomb from time to time, how about when we actually DO get close to scoring? When is the last time anybody saw us take a few shots from the 30? The 20? I remember one of the fg drives we had, we got around their 15 yard line, and we started out running the ball on first and second down. Both times, pretty much the same play, and both times, the same minimal result. By the way, Seahawks were ranked like 1 or 2 against the run, so I'm not sure those plays had such a great chance of working. I can see the first down run, but the second? LET THE KID TAKE A FEW SHOTS. So now you get to 3rd down and long, and they KNOW you're going to pass the damn ball, and the chances of completing a pass get that much harder. I realize we aren't exactly stocked with play makers, but good lord...take a few shots. Let Johnny try to rip one in there. Let Gary try to rise up and snatch another TD. Throw a deep wheel route to Duke. SOMETHING aggressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 So the theory is we held JM back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeverCleveland Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 This would be possible if the following conditions occur Flip calls a over the middle passing play, a bald eagle soars over Johnny, our o-line blocks (cough Erving Cough), our receivers get open, God decides to love Cleveland for a minute, our receivers catch the ball, and we don't commit a penalty and referee determines its a touchdown and not down on the 1 yard line. A tall task for our current offense ...hmm that could turn into a short joke about our receivers hahaaaaa......yeah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiggins7919 Posted December 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 Does nobody else notice this? I'm not saying anybody is holding him back, but am I the only one who doesn't think we take enough shots to the pay dirt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted December 22, 2015 Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 I'll be mostly watching the games back in the next week or two, I'll maybe keep an eye out for it then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unsympathetic Posted December 22, 2015 Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 I'm not sold on the notion that the ball not being thrown deep inherently means that a deep route isn't in any play in question. If anything, a deep route in play design clears a DB playing zone out of the area of an underneath route.. so I would expect a deep route on nearly every pass play that exists. They're also the routes most attentively marked by the defense. 1) JF not throwing it deep means that either JF didn't correctly recognize the coverage, again.. or that the defense knows JF is looking for the homerun rather than taking 10-yard slants. 2) McCown not throwing it deep means that Benji may have only beaten his man by one step, not the 3.5 needed for McCown's wounded ducks to flap their way to where he's going to be. Both are on the QB... not on the play design. I'd be into this thread... if thread was titled "Anticipate the damn deep route being open, QB!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted December 22, 2015 Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 OP assumes that not throwing it deep means that a deep route wasn't in the play. 1) JF not throwing it deep means that JF didn't anticipate the route getting open. 2) McCown not throwing it deep means that Benji may have only beaten his man by one step, not the 3.5 needed for McCown's wounded ducks to flap their way to the end zone. That's on the QB... not on the play design. I'd be into this thread... if thread was titled "Anticipate the damn deep route being open, QB!" Not sure why you're certain it's JM not 'anticipating' the open route when it could very easily be the receivers not actually getting open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted December 22, 2015 Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 Not sure why you're certain it's JM not 'anticipating' the open route when it could very easily be the receivers not actually getting open. Well....to me....the difference is that on a deep route you dont actually wait for the receiver to be "open"....if you do, then you're too late... And that is my take on Johnny....that he tends to wait till he see's an open receiver, before throwing it(which is often too late)....he needs to see the coverage and take advantage of mis-matches, which will often require him to throw the ball "before" someone gets open and will require the ball to arrive at the same spot that the WR will also arrive at....at the same time........ Lots of late passes and very few early(in stride) types of passes..... BUT, in terms of long passes, surprisingly, the Browns are right up there with the big boys.....as we are tied for 7th in the league for passes over 40+ yds......... TD passes?....now that is a different story...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted December 22, 2015 Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 ... plus "open" is a whole different thing at the NFL level. And then there's redzone "open"... Look at the 9th play of our initial Q4 drive... around the 10:00 mark... it's 3rd and 5 at the 10. I don't have the all-22, but from the broadcast live shot and replays, it looks like: - They blitz emptying the middle of the field. - Barn runs the left seam with a back tight on his outside shoulder. - The throw to the inside will be there, but is not made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted December 22, 2015 Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 ... plus "open" is a whole different thing at the NFL level. And then there's redzone "open"... Look at the 9th play of our initial Q4 drive... around the 10:00 mark... it's 3rd and 5 at the 10. Ok.....challenge accepted.......here it is on coaches tape.... A few notes first: All 3 receivers on the left were open for a quick pass Gabe was WIDE WIDE open, in the flat, for an easy walk into the end zone.... Had Johnny stepped up, he coulda walked thru a huge hole himself or passed to Barn.... There is DEFINITELY a blown block by Duke, who let the early pressure in on the right.... But....Johnny went the wrong way 100%(too soon too)....ran right, when all his receivers(and the big hole) were left..... Shot 1 shows the immediate hole opening between Thomas & Pasztor and that Gabes man has let him go in order to rush.....Johnny is looking to the left...... Shot 2...Gabe is wide open....benji is open....Barnidge is about to cut.....the hole in the line is HUGE.....Duke is seen going left, leaving the LB open.....and Johnny is already running the wrong way.....completely missing 3 or 4 opportunities..... Last shot just shows how open Benji and Gabe were.....cant see Johnny, but he is getting tackled on the far right side.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted December 22, 2015 Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 I've just looked at this play - Manziel has about half a second before pressure is in his face. I'm not certain, but I'm guessing that's maybe one read, and if barnidge isn't the first read, then there's no chance it'll get there. He escapes the pressure, in a way, but then is limited by his running direction to only one side of the field. edit: the pressure is from KJ Wright, completely unblocked to the QB. second edit: there is a hole, but the moment he would have taken off for the hole, it's blocked by duke johnson running his route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiggins7919 Posted December 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 Yeah, Duke either ran his route or went to block the left rushing defender. If it's the play I'm thinking of, Duke immediately ran left to get a piece of the left defender. But yeah, Manziel making this play to Gary would've been insane. He would've had to trust the route, trust where he knew the defenders were, and place a nice ball to the juicy part of the field. And turnovers in the red zone are just killers, so throwing it up to the middle probably goes against everything he knows. But what a great still-shot. You can see the far back defender running left, so Gary would've had the middle open if Johnny somehow had his head up and lobbed the ball to him. Bang-bang play...maybe he'll get there one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted December 22, 2015 Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 I've just looked at this play - Manziel has about half a second before pressure is in his face. I'm not certain, but I'm guessing that's maybe one read, and if barnidge isn't the first read, then there's no chance it'll get there. He escapes the pressure, in a way, but then is limited by his running direction to only one side of the field. edit: the pressure is from KJ Wright, completely unblocked to the QB. second edit: there is a hole, but the moment he would have taken off for the hole, it's blocked by duke johnson running his route. It definitely was a snap snap play...and would have required a quick decision and a deep knowledge and comfort with where your receivers are.....which takes a LOT of time.....years even?... And Duke probably made the biggest error on this play by abandoning the guy on the right..... But....look at the first shot I posted which shows better depth of where Johnny and Duke were.....he easily had the space and time to step up after Duke gets by....woulda worked... Heres another shot an instant after yours.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted December 22, 2015 Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 It's the difference between reading defenses/defenders and looking for open receivers... Look at Mud's 2nd pic. The Safety is turning to leave since his CB has two WRs in his area. As soon as this turn is seen... and JM is looking in that direction... the throw to Barn has to be made. EDIT: As for Duke's choice... since we have 4 OL blocking 3 defenders, it does not look that bad. Schwartz could have slid out on the LOLB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
browns52 Posted December 22, 2015 Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 Red zone scoring has been a problem for us ALL year, regardless of who our QB is. Has anybody else noticed that when we get down to either the red zone or even just before it that we NEVER throw the ball in the end zone? And when I say never, I mean I can barely remember ANY times where we attempted a pass in the damn pay dirt. I understand that the field gets compressed, and windows are smaller, but I'm so sick and tired of trying to scheme our way into the end zone. Obviously we threw it to Gary for a TD, but how many other times did we take a shot? Remember against the Jets and the Titans how Johnny came out early and completed deep passes for TD's? In the time we've seen Johnny play, how many passes like that have we seen? Nobody expects an 80 yard TD bomb every game, but I DO expect for an offense to take a few shots. Yes, Johnny has been under severe duress due to heavy blitzing and at times suspect OL, but that doesn't excuse the severe lack of aggressive passes. Before anyone crucifies me, I have not seen the film, and I do not know if we had any opportunities. Maybe the opposing defenses had double coverage deep every time, and we couldn't afford to risk a turnover, but even that isn't a good excuse for NEVER throwing it deep. Take a deep shot that either our guy or nobody gets. Maybe we get a huge pass interference call, or maybe *gasp* we complete the damn thing. We don't have the best receivers, I think that's been well documented. But what we do have are a couple of guys that can get deep, especially Benji. And this last game we had Gabriel back, so there's another guy that runs a solid deep route. Yet we don't ever see it. Ever. And it's not just about throwing a bomb from time to time, how about when we actually DO get close to scoring? When is the last time anybody saw us take a few shots from the 30? The 20? I remember one of the fg drives we had, we got around their 15 yard line, and we started out running the ball on first and second down. Both times, pretty much the same play, and both times, the same minimal result. By the way, Seahawks were ranked like 1 or 2 against the run, so I'm not sure those plays had such a great chance of working. I can see the first down run, but the second? LET THE KID TAKE A FEW SHOTS. So now you get to 3rd down and long, and they KNOW you're going to pass the damn ball, and the chances of completing a pass get that much harder. I realize we aren't exactly stocked with play makers, but good lord...take a few shots. Let Johnny try to rip one in there. Let Gary try to rise up and snatch another TD. Throw a deep wheel route to Duke. SOMETHING aggressive. red zone scoring has been a problem every year, not just this yr...Our ol sucks on opening holes,and we don't have a true power back to make it worse, so we can't run it in and we don't have that big time reciever ala dez bryant etc etc.to throw to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted December 23, 2015 Report Share Posted December 23, 2015 Guys, that's the kind of play that only a few QBs in the league can make, if we're expecting Manziel to see and make that play every time then we'll be waiting a long time. Maybe in five years? Ten? Twenty? Need to find other ways to score, like when he's rolling out and we have an unmarked receiver running parallel in the end zone, per your other still, but there's a slew of bodies in between them, so maybe he's unseen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted December 23, 2015 Report Share Posted December 23, 2015 More experience = better play. With time and reruns in the film room on plays like this will eventually pay off. Every new NFL QB has growing pains. To not expect that is foolish. Whomever it is needs a healthy stable OL with a real running game and a proper set of high caliber WR's. Give him all that and he will be the Browns QB. I think we have the players (when returned from injuries) already in the OL with the possible exception of center with Mack leaving. Erving just is not ready IMHO to be the starting center. He and Shelton need the same S&C specialist to sculpt them into dominant NFL players. There are some decent ones that should still be there in 4th or 5th round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiggins7919 Posted December 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2015 Red zone scoring has been a huge issue AGAIN, but my problem is why we don't take shots in the actual damn end zone. Like one of our first drives that actually got inside the 20. We start out with run, then run. We gained a total of ONE DAMN YARD. Would I like to be able to run the ball in the end zone?? Shit yeah, I'd freaking love it. But we have like 2 or 3 rushing td's from our RB's ALL YEAR, so what in the damn world does our coaching staff think is going to happen against the best rushing defense in the league? "Oh, maybe we'll trick them! Wait, it didn't work on first down? I bet they'll fall for it on second down!" But even when we do pass the ball from around the 25 or closer, we hardly ever throw it all the way to the end zone. We throw countless horizontal pass routes, and hope our guy breaks 5 tackles for a score. We throw the WR screen, the RB flare pass, hell...we even threw to our FB a few times. How many have worked? When was the last time anybody saw our team execute all of the blocking needed for one of those plays to work? Maybe it's a function of having tiny WR's. Nobody can go up and get the ball. But there are more routes than just a fade or jump ball. Let Johnny try and thread the needle. He throws a pick, so what? Let him learn. Not to mention, probably our best red zone play is when we're passing the ball, the protection breaks down, and Johnny has to make a play on the run. He's thrown a TD to Duke that way, and Gary. It's got about a 4000% better chance to work than a delayed handoff on first and second down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted December 23, 2015 Report Share Posted December 23, 2015 Guys, that's the kind of play that only a few QBs in the league can make, if we're expecting Manziel to see and make that play every time then we'll be waiting a long time. Maybe in five years? Ten? Twenty? Id think more than a few QB's would make that play.......but thats just my opinion.... Bottom line......this isnt an effort to knock Johnny.....but just an illustration showing the difference between a rookie trying to find a receiver and a veteran QB who doesnt need to look, but just knows by glancing at the D and having an awareness of where his receivers will be...and when........ Takes time....lots of time......and considering we change OC's every year..... started like 10 different QB's over the last 2 years.....and now have gone through approx 47 different receivers and RB's.....its little wonder no one is in sync...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted December 23, 2015 Report Share Posted December 23, 2015 I agree on that, for sure. Part of Manziel's "I want pett to stay" thing was about changing systems again, learning new verbiage, rather than actually getting to grips with the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted December 23, 2015 Report Share Posted December 23, 2015 More experience = better play. With time and reruns in the film room on plays like this will eventually pay off. I wish it was that simple, Ag... "Oh, maybe we'll trick them!" Could be worse... we could have called a middle screen from the 2-yd line like Shaun Peyton did. I agree on that, for sure. Part of Manziel's "I want pett to stay" thing was about changing systems again, learning new verbiage, rather than actually getting to grips with the system. So it's not a father image thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.