Starting to Soften on Keeping Pettine

[Flugel]

Believe it or not, a lot of this has to do with some great posting in here not only buffering my frustration but pointing out more accurate angles for conclusions. Hats off to everybody. On top of that, I keep losing sight of Pettine being in charge of all 3 stages today. While I remain frustrated with the defense, there's some silver linings I see here in some very important areas as well as some doable upgrades and problem solves:

 

1) QB is supposed to be the most important position on the team. This year, the least of all our problems on game day was the QB position regardless of what guy we turned to. The Defense was never going to protect our starter with a reasonable/doable margin of error so winning a close low scoring game was never going to be our reality. The more I think about it with Manziel - partying wasn't his only problem coming here. Nobody ever said "NO" all the while he was the most needed man in his 2 previous football programs prior to draft day. My guess is that wasn't exclusive to just football but at home as the son of 2 wealthy parents. He was a brat even before his football talent synergized that quality. The biggest part of Manziel's improvement process (aside from treatment) IMO was getting him to understand that success at the PRO level isn't possible without commitment and preparation at a PRO level. Offensive players here this year look at him as a credible leader on the field if my perception to what I'm watching is accurate.

 

2) Understanding #1 - the following beneficiaries emerged: Gary Barnidge, Travis Benjamin, and Joe Thomas and Alex Mack (in pass pro). We also had a promising rookie RB Duke Johnson presenting us with a nice prong of attack especially catching the ball.

 

3) The first 2 points mean we might actually some decent coaching going on at the following positions in particular: Tight End, Wide Receiver, QB, Offensive Line and RB. Let's hope Josh Gordon comes back with a better attitude than he had at the end of 2014; because adding him to Benjamin, Barnidge and Duke makes this a fun bunch to QB. There's 1 more variable that has to work that we haven't had much luck with regarding Gordon. Maybe the full year without football with only so much time left to go after the dream salary finally works in our favor? If that doesn't light the fanny of Gordon AND greedy agent attached at the hip - the alternative becomes curtains on the chance to be a millionaire at something the guy is extremely talented at. Difficult math? Doesn't have to be.

 

4) Because this defense is one of the worst we've ever seen - there's some obvious things that can be corrected beginning with bringing in a more experienced DC like a Jim Schwartz. Schwartz improved Buffalo's defense in 2014 to 4th overall from 20th overall in 2013 (under Pettine). Buffalo's record also went from 6-10 in 2013 to 9-7 in 2014 so maybe a combination/blend of Pettine and Schwartz could improve the effect and success of varying our fronts. In the process, Pettine wouldn't have to feel like he needs to babysit or hand hold a lesser experienced DC again.

 

5) This might invite some disagreement but what else is new coming from me? I think it's time for Special Teams Coach Chris Tabor to get his walking papers. I've seen enough of that continuity on Special Teams even though the premise of keeping some degree of continuity was a forgivable mistake. I don't think we've ever had a 2-3 year trend of more flags on our return units for ill-advised blocks. I can't remember if it was Brad Seeley or Ted Daisher or both - but we always seemed to have really respectable STs to the extent Josh Cribbs, Phil Dawson and Ryan Pontbriand made Pro Bowls. Outside of the Baltimore game, the 1 area of STs I didn't have any complaints about was our punt/kick coverage where Bademosi was awarded with a Pro Bowl invitation out of. He may not be a very good corner at this time; but he is very talented at breaking a double-press outside as a punt coverage gunner.

 

6) Some young/inexperienced guys like Orchard, Gaines (like this kid), Cooper, Shelton and Campbell are getting some experience under their belts. Looking forward to seeing injured rookie CB Ifo Ekpre-Olomu playing for us in 2016. I already mentioned Duke Johnson on the offensive side of the ball as well as our 22 year old QB if he stays. Also worth noting was the pleasant surprise of how well Armonty Bryant bounced back from injury.

 

7) It seems pretty easy to see what side of the ball needs the most help in the draft and possibly in free agency (although I wouldn't complain if we added another offensive lineman at the top of round 2).

 

8) In order to get #7 right - Farmer needs to get his walking papers within 2 weeks. He's the one guy that needs to go we all agreed on even when we argued whether Pettine deserved to be held as accountable. While many might not agree with Bill Parcells' "you are what your record says you are" like I do - they might be more inclined to agree with is "if you're going to judge me on the meal I cook - you better put me in charge of selecting the groceries for it." I'd rather have Pettine getting a BIG say on the next corner we need from the research/film collected by our scouting dept in tandem with a better FO guy than having him feeling like he still needs to spend time getting O'Neil up to speed enough to teach the defense the way it needs to be taught so that all the players buy into it. That's what made an idea like an experienced DC like Jim Schwartz an easy one.

 

9) Injuries can't be any worse to us than they've been in 2014 and 2015. Yeah, I know all teams have injuries but ones trying to overcome 4-12 from 2013 (following the cumulative effect of bad drafting here since 1999) haven't really made progress possible. When people were trying to point this out to me in the last few weeks, I didn't realize I was actually most pissed that Mike Pettine wasn't a miracle worker (not to be confused with Head Coach). Definitely my bad.

 

That about wraps up my I'm okay with Pettine the Dawg. I know I'm missing stuff so please feel free to add your points of agreement or disagreement.

 

Merry Christmas folks!

 

 

 

 

[Mark O]

I think someone else pointed out....the only issue with keeping Pettine and getting rid of Farmer is that the new GM is going to want "his" guy so basically Pettine has one year to turn everything around or he's going to be gone anyways.

 

Unless the new GM is someone promoted from within that understands there needs to be a working relationship between GM and HC.

[calfoxwc]

Solid, Flugels !

 

I think so, too. Pettine has been saying that the dline coach came up with a new scheme

vs the niners, and credited the offensive line coach for the improvement in the running game.

 

As well they should redesign some things.

 

If they would, it would be good to keep most of the staff intact, and

the Browns would be so much further ahead.

 

But failing to make serious changes, the Browns won't have a winning season next year, either.

 

And Farmer...The texting down to the OC last year... what is up with that?

 

If the players are playing so hard for this coaching staff, and the staff will look at themselves

and learn what they need to change....

 

I think it's a good idea to let them have another year. I'd replace Farmer with Peyton Manning in a NY second.

At least he makes funny commercials....

[TexasAg1969]

Hmmm hmmm hmmm Hmmm Humm Hmmm hmmm

[browns52]

Hmmm hmmm hmmm Hmmm Humm Hmmm hmmm

mr farmer you need to go...hmmm hmmm hmmm hmmm hmmm hmmm hmmm

[Canton Dawg]

Great post Flugs.

 

Like I said at the start of the season, we have a bunch of 1st and 2nd year people on this team (OC, DC, HC, & GM).

 

Combine that with a brutal schedule, our expectations should be somewhat tempered.

 

There were some bright spots along the way, I would think that the coaching staff should get another year.

[Unsympathetic]

In Kuharich I trust

 

He's the current #2 GM who should be promoted when Farmer is Monday'd

[miktoxic]

that's if farmer is fired.

 

remember the trio (haslam, pettine and farmer) all went on that pre-season outing. if promises were made i doubt if they were made only to one and not both parties. IMO (guessing here of course) haslam had that weekender to go over exactly what was going to happen if this year turned out to be exactly what it has turned out to be. hopefully he's looked around at the successful orgs and has learned some things. give the guys the chance you were giving them when they signed their contracts.

 

OR

 

just fire them. i heard mike dantoni is looking for a house in strongsville and he was a towel boy for the browns back in the 70s.

[Opal312]

If Ohio State can sign Greg Schiano as an assistant coach, the Browns could get Shwartz. They should be trying right now in fact. What's he doing now?

[Flugel]

Great post Flugs.

 

Like I said at the start of the season, we have a bunch of 1st and 2nd year people on this team (OC, DC, HC, & GM).

 

Combine that with a brutal schedule, our expectations should be somewhat tempered.

 

There were some bright spots along the way, I would think that the coaching staff should get another year.

 

Thanks CD! Well put. Part of the evaluation of this staff should also include how this team continued to rally throughout an absurd volume of injuries in 2014. The ole "Play Like a Brown" got us off to a 7-4 start refusing to cave into the excuse of injuries. The rest of the way, we had halftime leads or battled with playoff teams such as Indy, Carolina and Baltimore. That's what got me so pumped up heading into our last off season.

[Flugel]

While I firmly believe in Bill 3:14 "you are what your record says you are" - I also think we have enough talent to where it shouldn't take too long to flip it good.

 

It always feels better when I put it down in scribble:

Joe Thomas (had to be thinking in 2007 this 10-6 stuff is gonna spoil me the next 11-12 years or so)

Alex Mack (after turbulent return to action - he's made another Pro Bowl)

Mitch Schwartz (never been a bad run blocker and much improved pass protector praised by teammates for his intellect)

Joel Bitonio (his current replacement - Austin Pasztor impresses me too)

John Greco

Duke Johnson ("We got the Duke" only this version isn't Charles Grodin in "Midnight Run" trying to escape bounty hunter played by Robert DeNiro)

Travis Benjamin (How cool is it to have a mid-late round pick that shows us the reward for why we invest all the conditioning and coaching into?)

Gary Barnidge (This is another real good story. I wasn't smart enough to consider him as sufficient help receiving this year.

Andy Lee

Travis Coons (hey, I'll take a kicker that doesn't miss any kicks that aren't blocked as a wide eyed rookie)

Joe Haden (we'd have concussions too if countless ball carriers had full heads of steam around the edge. Playing in space can keep your brain there long term)

Tramon Williams (Made Pro Bowls when passers didn't have all day to throw)

K'Wuan Williams

Tashaun Gipson

Karlos Dansby (Many ideal instincts, 2 pic 6's and a new DC in a pear tree)

Nate Orchard (No peak a boo here - I see ya coming on strong here)

Johnson Bademosi (Made the Pro Bowl for Special Teams despite being a TD bulls eye for opposing game plans as a guy most frequently spotted for being in the wrong place at the wrong time - NFL cornerback)

Josh McCown/Johnny Manziel (Seen evidence from both to feel like either can win here if our defense gives them a reasonable margin or error. This is the most important place to establish continuity and these 2 seem to have a good working relationship)

Austin Pasztor (Very relieved to see a solid first guy off the bench here. Not saying he's perfect but I like what he's doing with his opportunity)

 

Names I wanted to put down but can't yet or any more:

Danny Shelton (lower your pad height and belly cargo and the keys to owning the middle are your's)

 

Paul Kruger (last time I mentioned him I almost found out where Jimmy Hoffa was buried. Does this have anything to do with HGH testing removing your favorite Baltimore tree bark snacks in 2015? Good Lord, we lost 10 sacks from you and it feels like we have Sadaam Hussein's 65 year old security guards in charge of sealing the edge while we take inventory of all our DBs that got concussions this year)

 

Bark Mingo - (I confess to liking his ability to drop into coverage like that INT in OT vrs Denver or another time he swatted down a pass near the goal line.The tackling should improve now that he's not playing with a separated shoulder any more. Had a really nice delayed x-stunt blitz near the end of 2014 that could get perfected IMO. BB has a similar wired guy named Jamie Collins, which might foreshadow where this Bark eventually finds a bite)

 

Craig Robertson - (After successfully filling in for Karlos Dansby down the stretch of 2014 in an effort I felt deserved Most Improved player - I have an easier time finding Waldo than Craig this year. Make sense? It shouldn't)

 

Xavier Cooper - (Can't help it - I like this guy a lot. I'm looking forward to seeing what a couple years of NFL weight room and fundamental polish does to him. Coaching is going to be very important to his NFL window)

 

Charles Gaines - (I like what I'm seeing and so does some of our recent commentators. Experience volume seems to be his only enemy)

 

Chris Kirksey - (I'll go with the lyrics from a great band "Who are you?" We need to know pretty soon)

 

Cam Erving - (Dom gummit - you seem like a great kid but you can't bend to save your NFL life)

[jiggins7919]

I agree with much of what the original post says. The biggest issue I see in this is that the defense is "Pettine's baby", and he's said as much. Even though he's not the defensive coordinator, he's still the head coach and has final say on whatever he wants. If O'Neil was doing something he didn't agree with, he could've changed it. If Pettine wanted to make an in-game adjustment, I have to believe he could've made it.

 

What nobody can possibly know, is whether ANY coach could've possibly done better with this roster. We didn't have the personnel to run the type of scheme we wanted, especially when the injuries started to pile up. Is this Pettine's fault for not adjusting to the "talent" he DID have, or is this Farmer's fault for not adapting the roster to what Pettine needed?

 

As other posters have noted, the biggest issue with firing Farmer and bringing somebody else in is that Pettine won't be the new GM's "guy"...just like Pettine wasn't Farmer's guy. Are we just going to keep making a similar mistake by forcing the new GM to make it work with Pettine, or are we going to just completely hit the reset button? Obviously nobody knows, but the more I think about it, the more I'm thinking they both go. Not saying that's what I want, but it's starting to make sense.

 

That being said, I can also make the argument for keeping Pettine. Our team obviously hasn't quit, they make public statements about hoping he stays, and I think starting over would stunt whatever growth Manziel has made. I also believe that our young "trouble makers", Gordon and Manziel, probably have an understanding with Pettine. Bullshit will not be tolerated. I want to see Pettine in charge of a team that has Manziel starting as the QB, and a team that has a verified weapon in Gordon. And I want Manziel named the starter IMMEDIATELY, like in freaking March. I want him getting every single rep in OTA's, minicamps, and whatever else there is. Gordon can apply for reinstatement in February I think, and I have no reason to believe that he won't be admitted back to the NFL.

[Flugel]

I agree with much of what the original post says. The biggest issue I see in this is that the defense is "Pettine's baby", and he's said as much. Even though he's not the defensive coordinator, he's still the head coach and has final say on whatever he wants. If O'Neil was doing something he didn't agree with, he could've changed it. If Pettine wanted to make an in-game adjustment, I have to believe he could've made it.

 

What nobody can possibly know, is whether ANY coach could've possibly done better with this roster. We didn't have the personnel to run the type of scheme we wanted, especially when the injuries started to pile up. Is this Pettine's fault for not adjusting to the "talent" he DID have, or is this Farmer's fault for not adapting the roster to what Pettine needed?

 

As other posters have noted, the biggest issue with firing Farmer and bringing somebody else in is that Pettine won't be the new GM's "guy"...just like Pettine wasn't Farmer's guy. Are we just going to keep making a similar mistake by forcing the new GM to make it work with Pettine, or are we going to just completely hit the reset button? Obviously nobody knows, but the more I think about it, the more I'm thinking they both go. Not saying that's what I want, but it's starting to make sense.

 

That being said, I can also make the argument for keeping Pettine. Our team obviously hasn't quit, they make public statements about hoping he stays, and I think starting over would stunt whatever growth Manziel has made. I also believe that our young "trouble makers", Gordon and Manziel, probably have an understanding with Pettine. Bullshit will not be tolerated. I want to see Pettine in charge of a team that has Manziel starting as the QB, and a team that has a verified weapon in Gordon. And I want Manziel named the starter IMMEDIATELY, like in freaking March. I want him getting every single rep in OTA's, minicamps, and whatever else there is. Gordon can apply for reinstatement in February I think, and I have no reason to believe that he won't be admitted back to the NFL.

 

Nice job with that. Just to clarify, I'm well aware the defense is Pettine's baby and I've brought it up in defense of his rookie/soph DC getting too much credit for all of it's shortcomings. That said, Mike Pettine is now a Head Coach so if inexperience at DC is preventing him from being able to give equal attention to 2 other phases of football - it's time to look at the math. This defense could not only use more experience at DC but alternatives to Mike Pettine's path/experience. IMO, that won't stunt Mike's growth - it will beanstalk it. At 1 time or another all Head Coaches get canned so if Mike adds a guy like Schwartz who looks to be a betetr teacher than O'Neil is at this point in time - it's win-win in my book.

 

As I said, when Schwartz took over Buffalo's defense in 2014 - their Defense went from 20th overall in 2013 (4th vrs the pass, 28th vrs the rush) and a 6-10 record to 4th overall in 2014 (3rd vrs the pass, 11th vrs the rush) and a 9-7 record.

 

Even when Pettine was with the Jets as their DC, their defense started out strong and declined steadily thereafter:

2009, 1 year after Mangini got fired with a 9-7 record, NY's Defense rose to #1 overall under rookie DC Pettine (1st vrs pass, 8th vrs run) and a 9-7 record.

2010 NY's Defense was 6th overall (6th vrs pass, 3rd vrs run) and a 9-7 record plus 2nd consecutive AFC Championship appearance despite Sanchez at QB.

2011 NY's Defense was 20th overall (5th vrs pass, 13th vrs run) and an 8-8 record.

2012 NY's Defense was 20th Overall (2nd vrs pass, 28th vrs run) and a 6-10 record.

The only thing I don't know is how soon Pettine got total autonomy and empowerment but the regular season never really exceeded the 9-7 football Mangini had when he got fired (which was at 10-6 two years before he got fired). Why would I bring all this up? Again, I think it would be healthy to take Mike somewhat out of the comfort zone he got his NFL diapers in especially in a place when he hasn't inherited a group of guys coming off 9-7 football.

 

Even in Buffalo (2013) despite an impressive volume of sacks and a pass defense that was ranked 4th - ranking 28th vrs the run told a lot of teams why play into their favor? Their Defense ranked 20th overall and their overall record was 6-10. My guess is the inability to defend the run made it easy to overlook the nice story they had going hurrying passers. 1 more reason why I'd love to see alternatives to how to defend the run from a more experienced DC than we've been seeing here the last 2 years. This allows Mike to be a Head Coach instead of babysitting a guy not ready to be a DC yet.

 

What I like about Pettine's background is he has played QB before a Division I football program told him he was smart enough to play QB at defending the pass. Look what stuck with him throughout his coaching experience in a passing era for the most part. An ability to defend the pass. If he was doing the self -evaluation he should be doing - I think he'd agree with me that he could look to a better design against the run than he's been clinging to the last 4 years. Aside from that, I love seeing what Barnidge did to expedite a new contract even if Farmer wasn't smart enough to initiate. Meatball on spaghetti, Manziel's comments are HUGE in terms of how much respect Pett's earned not just with Johnny but many others. Just goes to show how much this blowhard knows while I was spending so much time certain he had lost most of the veterans here.

[ATENEARS]

I still don't like the fact that our defense nabbed us turnovers late in a couple close ball games and the offense went backwards from those possessions. Mix in the poor clock management, and the really dumb team penalties (too many players on the field, etc..). I didn't care for the 'games' being played with the players heads, and I've always hated the media leaks that crush players confidence that seem to come from Pettine.

 

I wasn't pleased with how we attempted to fix glaring holes (blocked FG's in particular) with even worst solutions. I don't care if those decisions/calls came from coordinators or not, the average fan could see that those were poor bandaids and Pettine should be on top of all.

 

I hate the way this team poorly manages Public Relations. They seem to think that "any News" is good exposure as if they were Miley Cyrus or the Kardashians. I'm not sure who is at the helm of these media disasters, but if I were the head coach of a sports team I'd have a say in the shape of the teams public character and persona.

 

I couldn't comprehend any of the above coming from a regime of a 'GREAT COACH' .... therefore, I'm no Pettine fan.

[Flugel]

I still don't like the fact that our defense nabbed us turnovers late in a couple close ball games and the offense went backwards from those possessions. Mix in the poor clock management, and the really dumb team penalties (too many players on the field, etc..). I didn't care for the 'games' being played with the players heads, and I've always hated the media leaks that crush players confidence that seem to come from Pettine.

 

I wasn't pleased with how we attempted to fix glaring holes (blocked FG's in particular) with even worst solutions. I don't care if those decisions/calls came from coordinators or not, the average fan could see that those were poor bandaids and Pettine should be on top of all.

 

I hate the way this team poorly manages Public Relations. They seem to think that "any News" is good exposure as if they were Miley Cyrus or the Kardashians. I'm not sure who is at the helm of these media disasters, but if I were the head coach of a sports team I'd have a say in the shape of the teams public character and persona.

 

I couldn't comprehend any of the above coming from a regime of a 'GREAT COACH' .... therefore, I'm no Pettine fan.

 

Understood but the first version of BB was here for 5 years like another NFL team had a first version of Pete Carroll. I remembered Bill calling out Derrick Alexander and his personal trainer in the media before he learned the hard way how he should move forward in dealing with the media. Now we see why he is the way he is front of a mic today. Winning was far from immediate and there were head games being played with a promising young RB like Earnest Hunter and some other guys. It took us 4 years to make the playoffs with BB's staff that included Ozzie Newsome, St Nick Saban, Kirk Ferentz, Jim Schwartz and others.

 

I can't argue what you point out about his coordinators especially the DC and STs coach. My guess is if he's spending too much time babysitting a guy that's not ready to be an NFL DC - it's going to show up in areas you specified.

 

An inexperienced Head Coach is going to make errors even BB who now sports the most Superbowl rings of any active Head Coach. Does Pete Carroll make his 3rd Superbowl this year? Quite a difference from the first version we witnessed prior to the need to depart for USC.

[tiamat63]

 

 

4) Because this defense is one of the worst we've ever seen - there's some obvious things that can be corrected beginning with bringing in a more experienced DC like a Jim Schwartz. Schwartz improved Buffalo's defense in 2014 to 4th overall from 20th overall in 2013 (under Pettine). Buffalo's record also went from 6-10 in 2013 to 9-7 in 2014 so maybe a combination/blend of Pettine and Schwartz could improve the effect and success of varying our fronts. In the process, Pettine wouldn't have to feel like he needs to babysit or hand hold a lesser experienced DC again.

 

 

Won't happen barring a Scrooge level Christmas heart turn around or threatening Pettine's job. It would require a rather dramatic departure from our schematic approach to his defense.

 

Which is sad because I firmly believe in the hands of Schwartz this defense could be quite good.

[Canton Mike]

I still don't like the fact that our defense nabbed us turnovers late in a couple close ball games and the offense went backwards from those possessions. Mix in the poor clock management, and the really dumb team penalties (too many players on the field, etc..). I didn't care for the 'games' being played with the players heads, and I've always hated the media leaks that crush players confidence that seem to come from Pettine.

 

I wasn't pleased with how we attempted to fix glaring holes (blocked FG's in particular) with even worst solutions. I don't care if those decisions/calls came from coordinators or not, the average fan could see that those were poor bandaids and Pettine should be on top of all.

 

I hate the way this team poorly manages Public Relations. They seem to think that "any News" is good exposure as if they were Miley Cyrus or the Kardashians. I'm not sure who is at the helm of these media disasters, but if I were the head coach of a sports team I'd have a say in the shape of the teams public character and persona.

 

I couldn't comprehend any of the above coming from a regime of a 'GREAT COACH' .... therefore, I'm no Pettine fan.

 

Agree 100%. To me, the sentence I have bolded is the kiss of death for ANY head coach. That just CAN'T happen!

 

Mike

[StinkHole]

I've always liked Pettine. Don't feel a coach needs to be fiery to be good.

 

However...After being down 27-13 to the Donkeys Tomlin tells his DBs not to blink or he'll cut their eyelids off!!!

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/pittsburgh-steelers/post/_/id/16976/mike-tomlins-motivational-stocking-stuffers-spread-steelers-cheer

[WalterWhite]

Dead Man Walking

[Flugel]

 

Won't happen barring a Scrooge level Christmas heart turn around or threatening Pettine's job. It would require a rather dramatic departure from our schematic approach to his defense.

 

Which is sad because I firmly believe in the hands of Schwartz this defense could be quite good.

 

It's a very good point you bring up here T.

 

My guess behind my softening process here is he's going to be given a chance to save his job as a Head Coach if he can come to terms with the following:

1) There's no reason to be so loyal to a defensive scheme that has failed him against the run in the last 4 consecutive years on 3 different franchises per the stats I posted.

2) Jimmy O'Neil doesn't pack the NFL experience volume necessary to help a talent/depth deprived defense with a lot of injuries so it's time to read the writing on the wall. Cleveland is not O'Neil's match made in Heaven. In doing so, Pettine can allow himself to spend more time acting as a Head Coach with all 3 phases than remaining as a full time baby sitter of Defensive Coordination that has allowed over 30 points in all of our last 6 losses. I think week 1 reminded us Revis and Cromartie aren't here in more ways than 1.

 

Those aren't difficult things to come to terms with especially after he's told Farmer is getting his walking papers in an effort to make life easier on the Head Coach.

 

Anyway I do this - it involves a lot of if's unfortunately. Turning the 2013 trainwreck into a 7-4 start last year where countless injuries were never required as an excuse showed me something in Pettine I should have never forgotten this year.

[Westside Steve]

I'll go on record for giving Pettine one more year just for the continuity.

 

Maybe he'll prove me wrong.

 

The teams with the highest turnover rate seem to suck the worst for the most part.

 

WSS

[Mudfly]

Well......a very interesting read.....HA!

 

This MUST be my christmas present from the board......

[The Gipper]

I've always liked Pettine. Don't feel a coach needs to be fiery to be good.

 

However...After being down 27-13 to the Donkeys Tomlin tells his DBs not to blink or he'll cut their eyelids off!!!

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/pittsburgh-steelers/post/_/id/16976/mike-tomlins-motivational-stocking-stuffers-spread-steelers-cheer

Then, would you be willing to trade Pettine for Tomlin straight up?

[bbedward]

The team seems to respect Pettine and is still playing to win, and I like the way Flip has done for the most part. Defense has trended positively late in the season despite injuries.

 

If I was a betting man I'd bet on Pettine staying.

[Flugel]

Well......a very interesting read.....HA!

 

This MUST be my christmas present from the board......

 

Remember this thread I started Mud?

[Flugel]

Believe it or not, a lot of this has to do with some great posting in here not only buffering my frustration but pointing out more accurate angles for conclusions. Hats off to everybody. On top of that, I keep losing sight of Pettine being in charge of all 3 stages today. While I remain frustrated with the defense, there's some silver linings I see here in some very important areas as well as some doable upgrades and problem solves:

 

1) QB is supposed to be the most important position on the team. This year, the least of all our problems on game day was the QB position regardless of what guy we turned to. The Defense was never going to protect our starter with a reasonable/doable margin of error so winning a close low scoring game was never going to be our reality. The more I think about it with Manziel - partying wasn't his only problem coming here. Nobody ever said "NO" all the while he was the most needed man in his 2 previous football programs prior to draft day. My guess is that wasn't exclusive to just football but at home as the son of 2 wealthy parents. He was a brat even before his football talent synergized that quality. The biggest part of Manziel's improvement process (aside from treatment) IMO was getting him to understand that success at the PRO level isn't possible without commitment and preparation at a PRO level. Offensive players here this year look at him as a credible leader on the field if my perception to what I'm watching is accurate.

 

2) Understanding #1 - the following beneficiaries emerged: Gary Barnidge, Travis Benjamin, and Joe Thomas and Alex Mack (in pass pro). We also had a promising rookie RB Duke Johnson presenting us with a nice prong of attack especially catching the ball.

 

3) The first 2 points mean we might actually some decent coaching going on at the following positions in particular: Tight End, Wide Receiver, QB, Offensive Line and RB. Let's hope Josh Gordon comes back with a better attitude than he had at the end of 2014; because adding him to Benjamin, Barnidge and Duke makes this a fun bunch to QB. There's 1 more variable that has to work that we haven't had much luck with regarding Gordon. Maybe the full year without football with only so much time left to go after the dream salary finally works in our favor? If that doesn't light the fanny of Gordon AND greedy agent attached at the hip - the alternative becomes curtains on the chance to be a millionaire at something the guy is extremely talented at. Difficult math? Doesn't have to be.

 

4) Because this defense is one of the worst we've ever seen - there's some obvious things that can be corrected beginning with bringing in a more experienced DC like a Jim Schwartz. Schwartz improved Buffalo's defense in 2014 to 4th overall from 20th overall in 2013 (under Pettine). Buffalo's record also went from 6-10 in 2013 to 9-7 in 2014 so maybe a combination/blend of Pettine and Schwartz could improve the effect and success of varying our fronts. In the process, Pettine wouldn't have to feel like he needs to babysit or hand hold a lesser experienced DC again.

 

5) This might invite some disagreement but what else is new coming from me? I think it's time for Special Teams Coach Chris Tabor to get his walking papers. I've seen enough of that continuity on Special Teams even though the premise of keeping some degree of continuity was a forgivable mistake. I don't think we've ever had a 2-3 year trend of more flags on our return units for ill-advised blocks. I can't remember if it was Brad Seeley or Ted Daisher or both - but we always seemed to have really respectable STs to the extent Josh Cribbs, Phil Dawson and Ryan Pontbriand made Pro Bowls. Outside of the Baltimore game, the 1 area of STs I didn't have any complaints about was our punt/kick coverage where Bademosi was awarded with a Pro Bowl invitation out of. He may not be a very good corner at this time; but he is very talented at breaking a double-press outside as a punt coverage gunner.

 

6) Some young/inexperienced guys like Orchard, Gaines (like this kid), Cooper, Shelton and Campbell are getting some experience under their belts. Looking forward to seeing injured rookie CB Ifo Ekpre-Olomu playing for us in 2016. I already mentioned Duke Johnson on the offensive side of the ball as well as our 22 year old QB if he stays. Also worth noting was the pleasant surprise of how well Armonty Bryant bounced back from injury.

 

7) It seems pretty easy to see what side of the ball needs the most help in the draft and possibly in free agency (although I wouldn't complain if we added another offensive lineman at the top of round 2).

 

8) In order to get #7 right - Farmer needs to get his walking papers within 2 weeks. He's the one guy that needs to go we all agreed on even when we argued whether Pettine deserved to be held as accountable. While many might not agree with Bill Parcells' "you are what your record says you are" like I do - they might be more inclined to agree with is "if you're going to judge me on the meal I cook - you better put me in charge of selecting the groceries for it." I'd rather have Pettine getting a BIG say on the next corner we need from the research/film collected by our scouting dept in tandem with a better FO guy than having him feeling like he still needs to spend time getting O'Neil up to speed enough to teach the defense the way it needs to be taught so that all the players buy into it. That's what made an idea like an experienced DC like Jim Schwartz an easy one.

 

9) Injuries can't be any worse to us than they've been in 2014 and 2015. Yeah, I know all teams have injuries but ones trying to overcome 4-12 from 2013 (following the cumulative effect of bad drafting here since 1999) haven't really made progress possible. When people were trying to point this out to me in the last few weeks, I didn't realize I was actually most pissed that Mike Pettine wasn't a miracle worker (not to be confused with Head Coach). Definitely my bad.

 

That about wraps up my I'm okay with Pettine the Dawg. I know I'm missing stuff so please feel free to add your points of agreement or disagreement.

 

Merry Christmas folks!

 

 

 

 

 

This was where I last stood on things when that pov wasn't popular at all. Who do we suppose I was praising most in my very first sentence above?

[Mudfly]

 

Remember this thread I started Mud?

 

Yes, I do.....and, if you remember, this came after 2 months of me standing(virtually) alone against the whole lynch mob board, who INSISTED this team was LOADED with talent, that Pettine was misusing and, basically, ruining.....while I screamed to the heavens that it was talent talent talentless.....and everyone(including you) said it was coaching....and Farmer(Mr. Trade back).....

 

Yet....suddenly.....EVERYONE claims it was common knowledge and this strip HAD to happen....as if you all weren't just telling about all the great talent this team had JUST LAST FALL.....

 

 

This was where I last stood on things when that pov wasn't popular at all.

Now, after reading that post, in which you're talking defense and our extensive needs on defense.....yet, we draft 4 WR's and you're like thats GREAT!......and when you're screaming to fire Farmer, then post how Shashi gets the amazing idea to trade back for quantity and how billiant that is....sheesh

 

I took heaps of shit for defending Pettine and saying it was talent...heaps of shit.....yet, NOW, its basically the prevailing thought that "everyone knew this team didnt have talents, blah blah blah"....my ass....what a load of crap....

 

I took heaps of shit on pointing out how shitty Kruger was and spent, god only knows how many hours, hearing you guys(yeah you) pointing out how good Kruger was and that Pettine and Oneill just didnt know how to use him(or Shelton), cause god only knows Shelton was bad because Pettine rotated him in and out, cause him to be tired from running to the sideline(yep, that was you too).....YET, this year, it AGAIN is the prevailing thought that everyone knew this and it was a GREAT move by Shashi to cut Kruger......and Shelton, even when he's not being rotated in and out, looks pretty much the same....

 

Blah blah blah....

 

Believe me....I remember these talks too and Ive been on the opposing side WAY more....and, for the most part, my arguments have PROVEN OUT to be correct....And, unlike Ghoolie, I dont usually go on an "i TOLD YA SO RANT"....But, IF i DID, it would be a very very long diatribe.......

 

So....sorry if Im not crazy about Hue or Shashi, sorry if my observations go against the grain, sorry if I dont see great talent, where others apparently do.....but Im not gonna start playing the company line because you guys cant stand to hear quality observations that miss the mark you are aiming for....

 

Contradiction contradiction contradiction....

[mjp28]

This is good stuff for a Saturday morning read.

[Flugel]

 

Yes, I do.....and, if you remember, this came after 2 months of me standing(virtually) alone against the whole lynch mob board, who INSISTED this team was LOADED with talent, that Pettine was misusing and, basically, ruining.....while I screamed to the heavens that it was talent talent talentless.....and everyone(including you) said it was coaching....and Farmer(Mr. Trade back).....

 

Yet....suddenly.....EVERYONE claims it was common knowledge and this strip HAD to happen....as if you all weren't just telling about all the great talent this team had JUST LAST FALL.....

 

Now, after reading that post, in which you're talking defense and our extensive needs on defense.....yet, we draft 4 WR's and you're like thats GREAT!......and when you're screaming to fire Farmer, then post how Shashi gets the amazing idea to trade back for quantity and how billiant that is....sheesh

 

I took heaps of shit for defending Pettine and saying it was talent...heaps of shit.....

 

We drafted 2 edge rushers early in our 2016 draft priority and cut Kruger while getting exchange value for Mingo's football instincts of a raccoon crossing the highway at night time. It wasn't exactly brilliant intellect that went into cutting Pryor last year only to bring him back so late - he got very little game experience and development. We also drafted a couple LBers and 2 DBs. Kindred impressed me while Schobert didn't look bad in his first action.

 

I'm not going to pretend I didn't veer into wanting Pettine gone for a brief period when I thought he lost some very important veteran support on this team he previously earned/built up in 2014. That said, it was only about 5 weeks of the 2 years (32 games) he was here. I began 2015 only pissed at Farmer and didn't start changing my tune on Pettine until after the Cincy game in November whether I was right or wrong in doing so. My frustration with O'Neil was way longer. You did a great job of bringing me back around on Pettine.

 

Nobody is asking you to not be frustrated with what you dealt with any more than they have been asking you to predict flawless football in 2016. People that enjoy your loyalty and passion just like seeing you with a game face but I promise there will be no pistols to your temple while you are in wait and see mode. Again, I compliment about 98-99% of your posts because you make it easy to do that. You're one of the best posters I've ever read in my cyberspace existence that began in 1998 so I respect your opinions more than you think. I thought you and I had a great conversation a few weeks ago when you clarified what you're frustrated with and why you remain passionate about it.

[Tour2ma]

Flugs... told you Mud was calling you out...