bbedward Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 That's fine with me, I'd rather not either. There's too much ill will around here for anyone to have a completely objective view either way. I can evaluate JM entirely objectively and can say that he regularly makes the wrong read, struggles to get past the first or second progression, throws from his back foot in a clean pocket and has terrible footwork in general, leaves the pocket incorrectly consistently. It's so frustrating watching this asshole turn around and run 15 yards to the left and throw on the move across his body to the middle of the field - when he had a wide open guy and a clean pocket if he would have just seen it, stepped up, and made the damn throw. But it isn't worth debating since he won't be a Brown next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 Hey Tim, you could be right. I'm just stating what I would do if I own the team. Odds are that the Fresh Start gang is going to come out on top. 2 years from now if we are talking about next week's playoff game and how our new guy, Goff, will do then great. If, on the other hand, we're blathering about which one of Mel Kiper's butt boys to select as opposed to mortgaging the farm to get a journeyman like Kirk Cousins, what exactly will have been the difference? For all you recent convert to analytics ask yourself how often the complete reset has worked for us? (get out your slide rules and... Start!) WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 I can evaluate JM entirely objectively and can say that he regularly makes the wrong read, struggles to get past the first or second progression, throws from his back foot in a clean pocket and has terrible footwork in general, leaves the pocket incorrectly consistently. It's so frustrating watching this asshole turn around and run 15 yards to the left and throw on the move across his body to the middle of the field - when he had a wide open guy and a clean pocket if he would have just seen it, stepped up, and made the damn throw. But it isn't worth debating since he won't be a Brown next year. Can I just copy off of your paper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 Hey Tim, you could be right. I'm just stating what I would do if I own the team. Odds are that the Fresh Start gang is going to come out on top. 2 years from now if we are talking about next week's playoff game and how our new guy, Goff, will do then great. If, on the other hand, we're blathering about which one of Mel Kiper's butt boys to select as opposed to mortgaging the farm to get a journeyman like Kirk Cousins, what exactly will have been the difference? For all you recent convert to analytics ask yourself how often the complete reset has worked for us? (get out your slide rules and... Start!) WSS By that same reasoning, you can ask yourself any number of questions. How many times has taking a non-consensus top ranked QB worked for us? How many times has a QB with off-field concerns worked out in the NFL? How many times have sub 6'-1" QB's worked out in the NFL? There's any number of leading questions you can ask behind the guise of analytics. Each question will point to a different strategy. The trick of it is throwing out the meaningless or inconclusive data and developing a strategy around the metrics that have a high causal relationship with success. What those metrics are? I have a few inklings, but I'm sure we're just scratching the surface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbedward Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 ....a journeyman like Kirk Cousins I don't want Cousins here, especially since it would cost us more than he's worth - but he doesn't fit the definition of "journeyman" (yet) Our long-term guy isn't on the roster. The best place to find the long-term guy is in the draft. By all accounts if Goff is worth a #2 pick (he is), you take him there. The Browns haven't done this in a long time - the idea is nice that we can wait for our usual reject to develop or sign a young FA reject. But you have a top prospect, you take him. The idea would be you probably don't want to plan on tanking 2 years later to get another pick for the next top prospect. You take him when you have the chance, like we do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 How many times has taking a non-consensus top ranked QB worked for us? That's interesting... Wondering how many times we have ever taken the consensus, top-ranked QB? Couch? Phipps? That just may be the list... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 Because we didn't spend enough time or money on it last year. We just need to invest first rounders across the board - only then will we be good. Right? so we should keep it all as is? Was our offensive production last year nearly as big of a problem as the defense? Of course i'm not suggesting that the defense doesn't need firesaled, if that's what you think. It does. It needs a do over. Which is why we need to draft young talent instead of bringing in over the hill expensive FA's that come here for their last big check. Can't believe anybody's in the mood to pass on almost sure thing defensive talent on the level of Mack or better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 I can evaluate JM entirely objectively and can say that he regularly makes the wrong read, struggles to get past the first or second progression, throws from his back foot in a clean pocket and has terrible footwork in general, leaves the pocket incorrectly consistently. It's so frustrating watching this asshole turn around and run 15 yards to the left and throw on the move across his body to the middle of the field - when he had a wide open guy and a clean pocket if he would have just seen it, stepped up, and made the damn throw. But it isn't worth debating since he won't be a Brown next year. I completely agree. And all of those are aspects that can, conceivably, be fixed...which is my point. Not one single thing you pointed out is a physical flaw - all can be overcome by a true "student of the game." Had Manziel not been a completely immature asshole basket-case, he could have become a great NFL QB. But his failures are solely on his poor work ethic and his stubborn reliance on his own improvisation to overcome. Learning the playbook, buying into the offensive system, trusting the progression, studying the reads, and "plus" practice repetitions would have likely eliminated most of those issues. Instead, he learned just enough to get by, watched enough film to understand the larger concepts and then threw it all in the trash whenever he left the facility. In five years, for another franchise, after he hits rock bottom and climbs his way back up...maybe he could be something. But I don't want to wait and see, nor do I think anyone in their right mind should. The point is that he had all of the potential in the world and anyone who is objective in their analysis can at least admit it. Similarly, he solely fucked himself over and is entirely too immature to be a welcome asset and anyone objective in their analysis can also admit that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 so we should keep it all as is? Was our offensive production last year nearly as big of a problem as the defense? Of course i'm not suggesting that the defense doesn't need firesaled, if that's what you think. It does. It needs a do over. Which is why we need to draft young talent instead of bringing in over the hill expensive FA's that come here for their last big check. Can't believe anybody's in the mood to pass on almost sure thing defensive talent on the level of Mack or better. I'm not in that mood. I'm still firmly on board with the Bosa + Wentz draft. Investing in high draft picks doesn't guarantee success, just as investing in big name FA's doesn't guarantee success. Further, conducting a firesale and adding multiple new people doesn't guarantee success. I'm advocating smart acquisitions that make sense, not blanket defensive acquisitions just because we sucked last year. As I said, I'm still on board with the Bosa + Wentz draft, but that is contingent upon being able to at least add Wentz. Strong QB play is much more important than strong DE play. A great DE can only do so much when the QB is garbage. Ask JJ Watt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 By that same reasoning, you can ask yourself any number of questions. How many times has taking a non-consensus top ranked QB worked for us? ☆uh, never yet? And what's the difference if we can them with the entire staff every 18 months. And are we thinking that Goff is a consensus number one pic in the tradition of other number one picks? Or just a pretty good player in a shity match of quarterbacks ? ☆ How many times has a QB with off-field concerns worked out in the NFL? ☆ Joe Namath, Kenny Stabler, Ben Roethlisberger, Jim McMahon, Brett Favre, not sure how many other ones just because with Johnny it's the first time that partying has been national news. Other guys with off field problems are a lot worse than Johnny if I recall correctly☆ How many times have sub 6'-1" QB's worked out in the NFL? ☆ just in the last week there have been guys here lined up to blow Russell Wilson and Drew Brees. How many 6 foot 2 and over quarterbacks have failed?☆ There's any number of leading questions you can ask behind the guise of analytics. Each question will point to a different strategy. ☆ yes indeed there are ☆ The trick of it is throwing out the meaningless or inconclusive data and developing a strategy around the metrics that have a high causal relationship with success. What those metrics are? I have a few inklings, but I'm sure we're just scratching the surface. ☆ hey like I've been saying, that could be. I don't know that any other team has gone all in with analytics or not. I guess in 10 years when we are celebrating our tenth Super Bowl victory under coach Stephen Hawking, we will know we backed the right horse! ☆ WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 I completely agree. And all of those are aspects that can, conceivably, be fixed...which is my point. Not one single thing you pointed out is a physical flaw - all can be overcome by a true "student of the game." Since you are... I will... a little... Mechanics can be corrected... I agree. Even the tendency to revert to poor form under pressure can, given enough time and repetition, be eliminated. However, finding and flipping the switch that allows reads, recognitions, and progressions to come together to produce consistent decision making regardless of the moment's pressure??? That is a whole different level of effort. And it is an effort that is atop the physical. Developing both of the above against the tide of reinforcement perpetuated by the Heisman-fueled, fame machine that is JFF? Impossible... Too many years of too much success ingraining the JFF playground way too deeply to be rooted out. You just can't generate an IF big enough to do that... even as a supposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbedward Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 I completely agree. And all of those are aspects that can, conceivably, be fixed...which is my point. Not one single thing you pointed out is a physical flaw - all can be overcome by a true "student of the game." Had Manziel not been a completely immature asshole basket-case, he could have become a great NFL QB. But his failures are solely on his poor work ethic and his stubborn reliance on his own improvisation to overcome. Learning the playbook, buying into the offensive system, trusting the progression, studying the reads, and "plus" practice repetitions would have likely eliminated most of those issues. Instead, he learned just enough to get by, watched enough film to understand the larger concepts and then threw it all in the trash whenever he left the facility. In five years, for another franchise, after he hits rock bottom and climbs his way back up...maybe he could be something. But I don't want to wait and see, nor do I think anyone in their right mind should. The point is that he had all of the potential in the world and anyone who is objective in their analysis can at least admit it. Similarly, he solely fucked himself over and is entirely too immature to be a welcome asset and anyone objective in their analysis can also admit that. The thought is nice, but I don't characterize those flaws as "small potatoes" Even QBs with incredible work ethic can never get to the point of being able to have NFL-level pocket presence, go through progressions as quickly as you need to at an NFL level, or read an NFL level defense. Footwork also a hard fundamental thing to clean up. Basically make the correct decision quickly, under pressure + consistently and accurately deliver the football. Yea he "could" fix all of those problems - or come up with a way to overcome them. But you know, so could Brandon Weeden and Brady Quinn. That's really why I like Goff so much, because he is already really good at all of those things that many others before him just could never figure out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 http://espn.go.com/nfl/photos/gallery/_/id/8395099/image/9/version/mobile/len-dawson-6-foot-0-short-quarterbacks I didn't know about a lot of these guys. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbedward Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 And if we're going to keep comparing Bosa to Watt then I'm gonna start comparing Goff to Aaron Rodgers. Only seems fair Like the way Goff keeps his feet moving and physically turns his body while going through progressions across the field. Very Aaron Rodgers-esque. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 Since you are... I will... a little... Mechanics can be corrected... I agree. Even the tendency to revert to poor form under pressure can, given enough time and repetition, be eliminated. However, finding and flipping the switch that allows reads, recognitions, and progressions to come together to produce consistent decision making regardless of the moment's pressure??? That is a whole different level of effort. And it is an effort that is atop the physical. Developing both of the above against the tide of reinforcement perpetuated by the Heisman-fueled, fame machine that is JFF? Impossible... Too many years of too much success ingraining the JFF playground way too deeply to be rooted out. You just can't generate an IF big enough to do that... even as a supposition. The shame of it all is that he actually did change from his Heisman season to his second A&M season. He led the SEC in rushing with over 1400 yds, but he decided in the off season he had to become more of a passer so he went out to California to get that fixed. His running yardage dropped almost in half, his completion % went from 68% to 69.9% and his QB rating went from 155 to 173. Passing TDs went up appreciably and running TDs went down in a similar fashion. So he has demonstrated the ability to change over time just as he was doing this year compared to 2014, but his immature jackassery has clouded the picture beyond salvage with the Browns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoodums19 Posted January 11, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 And if we're going to keep comparing Bosa to Watt then I'm gonna start comparing Goff to Aaron Rodgers. Only seems fair Like the way Goff keeps his feet moving and physically turns his body while going through progressions across the field. Very Aaron Rodgers-esque. I'm honestly completely sold on Goff at this point, watched some of his highlights and the kid has a natural ability to find the open receiver. Can throw on the run and has good mechanics. Haven't seen a qb the Browns drafted as NFL ready as him before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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