Browns Foundation Players (decent read actually)

[jiggins7919]

http://www.scout.com/nfl/browns/story/1631124-browns-foundational-players

 

Before this season, many of us thought the Browns had the right combination of young talent and veterans to be competitive. My biggest concern was the passing offense but thought the run game and defense would do enough to make us competitive.

I (we?) were wrong.

While many ran to blame either GM Ray Farmer for not bringing in talent or HC Mike Pettine for how he used the talent, it was likely a both/and problem. The Browns have some talent but are missing some key pieces, while the talent on the roster could have been used better.

Farmer and Pettine are gone but many players still remain. The Browns are going in a different direction, this time with what feels like a long term view of what competing will look like.

It begs the question: Who are the foundational pieces on the Browns roster?

Not - Besides lower level rostered players, these players are just not a part of the long-term future for the Browns. Many may not make it into next year.

Johnny Manziel - Getting this one out of the way quickly. While Manziel might stick on the roster; he is a QB, his stock is at an all-time low, his contract is cheap and the team might not want to give in to his seeming desires to leave, Manziel is not a part of their future plans. Something could change but it would take a ton of effort and the passage of time with that effort for that to happen. Just don't see it.

Donte Whitner / Karlos Dansby - Whitner and Dansby were brought in to help Pettine put his defense in place and make a difference as veteran leaders who could still contribute. At different levels, they did just that. It wasn't enough but both were helpful for the Browns. Their time has passed. Donte is likely to be cut this season while Dansby could stick around for another year as his production hasn't dropped much.

Dwayne Bowe - Bowe was a downright disaster. Most blame it on getting into Pettine's doghouse but he also never seemed motivated or in shape as well. He has $2.85 million guaranteed to him from the Browns next year so we might see them give him a shot in Training Camp next year but he isn't for the long-term in Cleveland.

Brian Hartline - Hartline, along with Bowe, was brought in to help solidify the receiving corp. He actually played very well (30 catches in his last 4 games) and has a cheap contract. The Browns will keep him around for another year but, even at 30, it is hard to see him as their #3 WR for years to come.

Andrew Hawkins or Taylor Gabriel - Both of the Browns tiny WRs have struggled to stay healthy. Analytics show (and most Browns fans agree) that size is an important attribute for the position. The team is unlikely to keep both of these guys going forward with the age, upside benefit to Gabriel.

Tashaun Gipson - Call it a guess. Call it reading between the lines. Whatever it is, of all the Browns possible free agents, Gipson is the one I believe will not return. He was tentative coming back from his knee injury this year and didn't really seem to want to be here. The market for the undrafted FS should be hot. If his price tag comes down, a return is possible but highly unlikely.

Desmond Bryant / Paul Kruger - Two veterans brought in with big price tags and unlikely to be here in two years, maybe not after this off-season. Bryant has struggled with consistency, both in his play and his health. Kruger has shown flashes but many think he was misused often by Pettine. Both can still be productive but have big contracts and limited shelf life as impactful players.

Tramon Williams - The final free agent acquisition that just didn't do enough to make a difference. Williams was on the downside of his career when the team brought him in but the hopes were he would solidify the #2 corner spot. He still has $2.8 million owed to him even if he isn't on the team next year. If he makes the roster, at 32 years old, they will pay him $6.2 million. Doubt he gets that money.

To Be Determined - A few players who could be an important part of the Browns future but for a variety of reasons, it is still to be determined. This list is bigger than we would all want.

Joe Thomas - Not something most Browns fans want to hear, but Thomas is on the trade block. We have been spoiled by great tackle play but the team may decide to give him what he wants and recoup draft considerations. With the play of offensive linemen around the league, Thomas likely gets a 1st round pick and more for the Browns in return. A late 1st this year and a mid-round pick the following likely is enough to get it done. Like it or not.

Joe Haden - Haden is an interesting case. He is very talented but was overhyped by Browns fans for years. He is clearly a good #1 corner but not a shutdown, leave him on an island one. The Browns are unlikely to move him, for a variety of reasons, but his future is far more murky than we want to admit.

Josh Gordon - A very talented player that just may not be able to overcome himself. While he is unsure of his contract status, the Browns have him next year and then he becomes a Restricted Free Agent if the team's beliefs are right. Gordon could be a #1 WR but he still has to be reinstated and then the new brain trust will make a decision.

Alex Mack / Mitchell Schwartz - The Browns likely don't want to see either of these players go but may not have a choice. Mack can get out of his contract while not allowing the Browns to Franchise/Transition Tag him. Schwartz is underappreciated by most fans but does a great job for the team. At least one of these two should be back if the Browns have their way but, along with Thomas, the OL could be undergoing a huge facelift this off-season.

Travis Benjamin - A skilled player, Benji was reportedly 75% done with a contract extension. He could be an important part of the Browns offense as the speed guy on the outside but whether he wants to stick around and whether the new regime wants to pay him is another discussion. A combination of Gordon and Benjamin is a good start to the WR grouping or both could be gone.

K'Waun Williams - Williams has all the makings of a good slot corner but concussions early in his career do not bode well for him long term. If they can protect his head, he could be a great piece on the secondary for the Browns.

Foundational Pieces - These are the guys who Browns fans should hope are a part of the turnaround. A lot will need to be added to this core but there is some talent here. You can also assume their first two picks in the upcoming draft better be added to this list.

Gary Barnidge - While Barnidge is a little older, he signed his contract extension and will be an important part of the Browns offense moving forward. In a perfect world he would develop as a blocker and/or be paired with a great blocking tight end but his ability to get open and make catches is huge.

Joel Bitonio - The Browns 2nd round pick came back down to earth in his second year but is still a great offensive lineman. He can play any position and could be Thomas' replacement, sliding one spot to the left. He is the one piece on the offensive line that the team can build around.

Duke Johnson - While Johnson may never be an every-down back, he is a superb weapon out of the backfield. He can get 10 - 15 carries a game while also catching 5 - 10 passe. The Browns lack dynamic players and Duke, as long as he stays healthy, is one they can build around.

Cameron Erving - The Browns second first round pick struggled mightily early in the season but started to come around in the last couple of games. Players can, and do, develop and many believe that Erving can be a very good interior linemen. If Mack leaves, Erving will take over at center. If not, one of the guard spots is bound to be open and he should settle in there for years to come.

Danny Shelton - The #12 overall pick had his ups and downs last year but flashed a ton of talent. He can fit in either an even or odd system (the Browns ran both a lot last year) and should continue to develop his technique and pad level to become an important part of the middle of the Browns defense.

Xavier Cooper - Cooper came on later in the season as well. A perfect 3 technique defensive lineman, he can also play in both systems and cause havoc rushing the passer from the inside. If the Browns were to draft Joey Bosa and stick with a 3-4, they would have a great, young line to build around.

Christian Kirksey - A linebacker that can play all over the field, Kirksey continued to develop in his 2nd year. Learning from Dansby has been great for Christian and he should anchor our linebacking corp for a long time to come.

Nate Orchard - Orchard was a defensive lineman in college and his transition to standing up and playing in coverage was surprising. He played well enough to give some confidence he can play in any system. He still needs to learn a couple more pass rush moves but all and all is a foundational piece for the Browns.

Pierre Desir - The young corner has had his ups and downs but many around the league believe he is a starting level CB right now. He has the size and athleticism to make that true especially if they can build his confidence in a new system.

Ibraheim Campbell - Campbell is the likely successor to Whitner this upcoming season. He played in 15 games this year and showed flashes of his ability to be a good safety at this level. Smart, aggressive and with fluid hips, the Browns did well to draft him this year in preparation for the future.

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That is it. 10 foundational pieces with only Barnidge, Bitonio and Kirksey really certain to be impactful for years to come. The TBD group could add a bunch of talent to the foundation group but there are question marks there for a reason. Even if 4 of the 7 in the TBD group are a part of the foundation of the team moving forward, that is only 14 players.

Maybe I overlooked someone. Maybe some of the younger players will break out under new leadership. Maybe the upcoming draft will supplement the core with some great players.

Or maybe a tear down is in order because the talent on the roster isn't very good.

What do you think about the Browns foundational pieces for the long haul?

[gftChris]

I wrote about this a week or two back. We have some very good players, but not many of them, some decent players, and a lot of 'guys' that could easily be replaced with similar from the scrap heap. Good teams, though, have a way of exploiting the meagre talents of the 'guys' by putting them in situations to utilise them, and 'guys' can masquerade as stars, while in Cleveland, we have a habit of making stars masquerade as 'guys', or just flat out downgrading them.

[jiggins7919]

Bah...I'm sorry Chris. I looked down the first page of posts, but I was lazy and didn't review further. I apologize. I guess I got excited after reading the article, and I thought it was well done.

 

I'm not saying we have a ton of talent or anything, but we definitely have some young guys that COULD develop into solid players, if not more. We absolutely need some of the young guys to exceed expectations, and I don't think that's asking too much. It happens all of the time in the NFL, so why not with us? The optimistic side of me says a new coaching staff will be able to better place our guys in successful situations. Nate Orchard simply HAS to develop into the pass rushing badass we sorely lack, and Shelton needs to be more consistent. Before his injury, I thought Jalyn Smith was the perfect draft pick to bring our defense together, but unfortunately he's severely banged up. I'd still like to keep Dez Bryant, but Kruger can be cut (unless new coaching staff feels like they can better use his abilities).

 

Our secondary and offensive line scare me the most, and the weird thing is, I thought those were our strongest areas. We could very easily be losing Schwartz, Mack, AND Thomas. There's really no way to recover well from that. Erving played a LITTLE better at the end, but safe to say we're all hoping that he's a better fit at center and comes into his own there. Again, he's another young player that we need to develop. The entire season will be predicated on our young pups getting better. They make the leap, and we're competitive. They don't, and we're awful again. I'm excited about our safety Campbell, and also the corner that was hurt all season. I forget his name, but he was a possible late first or second round talent before an awful injury. Oh, and we need Josh Gordon to play for us. I know I'm probably crazy, but I want him so badly. We are STARVED for playmaking offensive talent, and when on his game, he's unstoppable.

 

Just wish we weren't still looking for our QB, ya know? That just puts such a damper on everything.

[gftChris]

For sure this was better written than mine

[gftChris]

In terms of the talent search, I think Thomas stays, especially if Mack and Schwartz go. Then you retain four guys (JT, Bit, Erving, Greco) to start on the OL and only have one hole to fill.

 

It'd be great to pick up our next/first superstar QB in the draft, but I would be happy rolling with McCown next year and just getting good players, rather than trying to force something that isn't there. McCown isn't going to win us a superbowl, but he's reasonable enough to get us to a decent record with better play all around.

 

Fun fact - this year the browns threw for over 4000 yards, and 20 TDs to 12 INTs. Our INT percentage was among the lowest in the league. We also had two guys get around a thousand yards receiving. Now, that was supposed to be the weak spot on the team, right? So if the line plays up to its ability, not down to it's franchise average, and we get some run game going, things start getting interesting on O. If the D plays up to its price tag, things start getting *seriously* interesting.

 

It all of course depends on the head coach, of course, and the ability to put players in positions to utilise their talent - nobody in the NFL, not even Kruger, Bademosi, Bowe, Manziel or Gilbert, is completely talentless. For every player there's a reason they are in the league.

[gftChris]

On the interception percentage - Josh McBrown's is 1.4%. That's nestled neatly alongside Aaron Rodgers and Brandon Weeden, both also on 1.4%

 

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/quarterback-interception-rates/2015/

[bbedward]

The picture looks pretty bleak if we fail in the draft.

 

I said before if we get 2013 versions of Gordon, Gipson, Haden, Mack then things look a lot better for us. Especially if we get the 2015 Benji - but keeping Gipson, Mack, and Benji is questonable at this point. Getting Haden, Gipson, Mack back to their pro bowl level might be equally questionable.

 

I really, really hope we keep Schwartz...Another homegrown talent I'd hate to see walk for nothing.

 

Dansby will probably stay next year because what's the alternative - we probably have bigger needs to fill this year than finding his replacement - unless there's a lower end guy we think can develop into a solid center piece. I see QB/DE/OLB with picks #2/#32 as it sits right now.

 

McCown is staying no matter what, but I also see us drafting a QB no matter what - likely there at #2 overall. He was very smart with the football this year and is more than good enough to win football games - he's just a couple years from retirement though. Great guy to have in a Browns uni - more of a player-coach.

 

Shelton has all the makings to develop into a solid anchor on the DL - despite the haters. A bit more practice on technique and maybe hitting the weights in an off season might see a supreme sophomore year.

 

Many of the others are TBD...but I like some of the things we've seen from Orchard, Cooper, Desir, DJohnson, and Kirksey

 

Really I don't think the picture is as bleak or the sky is falling as much as everyone seems to think. We're not 1 year away, but we aren't 5 either from being competitive in the division.

[gftChris]

Another thing to consider is that if Schwartz leaves, we will be in position to draft either Bosa or, more pertinently, Laremy Tunsil, the consensus top tackle in the draft. He could slot in at RT, giving us the eventual successor to JT when he retires, or is traded.

[bbedward]

Another thing to consider is that if Schwartz leaves, we will be in position to draft either Bosa or, more pertinently, Laremy Tunsil, the consensus top tackle in the draft. He could slot in at RT, giving us the eventual successor to JT when he retires, or is traded.

 

My boner is for Goff, but the Titans are proably about 50/50 for Tunsil/Bosa. I see them leaning towards Tunsil but who knows.

 

Regardless, it'd suck to have to draft a high-end OT prospect to replace one that we let walk in FA.

 

Bitonio very well may be JT's successor when he asks for a trade or retires, too. Erving would likely be Mack's successor - given our current roster anyway.

 

I dig Calhoun at #32 at the moment as well as a Bosa consolation prize, but he may not fall that far.

[jiggins7919]

Another thing to consider is that if Schwartz leaves, we will be in position to draft either Bosa or, more pertinently, Laremy Tunsil, the consensus top tackle in the draft. He could slot in at RT, giving us the eventual successor to JT when he retires, or is traded.

 

Ya know, I didn't even think about that, and it's worth considering. It might not be a sexy pick, but it would be vital to both our running game and the eventual progression of a young QB (whenever we take one). To your previous post, I too am more than happy to roll with McCown rather than "force" an early draft pick for a QB UNLESS we absolutely love one.

 

I would also trade back in the draft, but NOT very far. I don't see this happening this year unless somebody falls in love with either Goff or Lynch, but it's a possibility. I wouldn't go further back than around the 10-12 range.

[gftChris]

For a while my draft wants have been:

 

1. Bosa

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Maybe Goff

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Meh

 

If Bosa's not there, I'm all about trading down. You can probably pick up a great player down until about #5 - Bosa, Tunsil, Hargreaves, Ramsay, and previously Jaylon Smith would be good value. As it is, there are some good players available, though depending on how we handle free agency, not necessarily at a position of great need.

[Tour2ma]

Interesting read...

 

I'd take issue with the categorization of two players: Des Bryant as "Not" and Barn as "Foundational".

[TexasAg1969]

I think all Superbowl teams are built on defense first. I really like Cooper's and Orchard's upsides and agree with the article that adding Bosa to that mix along with Selton really gives us a huge upside. The hard decision will be at pick #2 for us. If we trust Josh Gordon then a later round WR makes sense. Of course I still think adding Henry as a power inside player opens this offense up because he has to be accounted for every play running, receiving or blocking. In the game tonight take a look at his pass blocking skills. Nothing to sneeze at and something our team lacks totally with our current backs who tend to get run over in route to the QB.

[Tour2ma]

... pass blocking skills... something our team lacks totally with our current backs who tend to get run over in route to the QB.

Not even close to true, Ag...

[MasterDog]

The word "Foundation" should not be lumped with "Manziel" .

[gftChris]

The word "Foundation" should not be lumped with "Manziel" .

It's not...

[TexasAg1969]

Not even close to true, Ag...

 

Seems several times a game our RB's got run over or slipped right past. Did I miss something this season? Seems like multiple times I recall our QB getting his clock cleaned and either the RB was not there when he should have been or had one of the other two options happen. At any rate Henry has been trained by a pro coach to be a real blocking asset on plays when he does not carry the ball. And in his case size & strength do matter-a lot.