Flugel Posted March 19, 2016 Report Share Posted March 19, 2016 As me and others have said already - I'm fine with keeping McCown to start the year with but open to thorough research we've been seriously lacking. I've been studying up a guy that kept jumping out at me at the combine - Brandon Doughty. Right now he's rumored to have a Andy Dalton type arm strength on the deep ball heading into the draft. Then again, Dalton finally showed me in 2015 that it is possible to improve it. Like Dalton, he'd have Hue overseeing the what needs to get better. There's also Tom Brady's pre-draft arm strength as well as what BB told him he needed to do in order to go from blue jeans to suiting up on Sundays. He was told he needed to get stronger. You know the rest. Like Wentz, Doughty comes from a small school program at Western Kentucky. Like Wentz, he's got pretty good height at 6'3" but he was a 3 year starter. You can book it that he'll get nitpicked this time of year. That said, we're looking for an ideal starting point for a guy we don't have to draft until a mid-late round. These are his numbers the last 2 years: 2014 67.9 cmp % 4830 yds 8.8 ypa 49 TD 10 INT 2015 71.9 cmp % 5055 yds 9.4 ypa 48 TD 9 INT Yeah but did he win like Wentz? Well, Western Kentucky finished 12-2 ranked 24th in the AP poll with an offense that averaged 40 points a game. Their Head Coach was a QB here in Cleveland for a cup of coffee - Jeff Brohm. Like I reminded people in Tour's thread about Chad Kelly when RGIII was most of America's darling in the mock drafts at the #2 slot overall - the team that drafted him also drafted another QB later (Kirk Cousins). We have 11 draft picks without a situation that will welcome an inexperienced wide eyed rookie QB into early starts 2016 if we're being completely honest with ourselves. Why not draft 1 or 2 rookie QBs mid to late that can watch Josh McCown play crash test dummy for the duration he's interested/ survives. Who's for sure the only guys right for this are Goff and Wentz? I thought I was but I'd be sleeping under bridges if I had to peg QBs right for a living at least in pertinence to Cleveland. Silver lining? Maybe the next Wayne Chrebet, Victor Cruz or Wes Welker looking to see what place not only offers him the best chance to make a team but ideal playing time. That goes for more positions that just WR. As much as the NFL media will have fun laughing at our situation - my guess is Sashi + 2 Harvards + Hue Jackson = Cleveland becoming the Undrafted FA Capital of the NFL. Along with that, I can see this group doing well to land some final cuts elsewhere than can help us today. Seattle nailed a lot of late round picks which helped them get their cap healthy. But, they stopped Sleepless in Seattle the SAME draft all the mock drafts in cyberspace exhausted their love on Luck and RGIII while they took Russell Wilson in the part of the draft we might have decent QB options. If you want defense first, I can think of easier things to hate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted March 19, 2016 Report Share Posted March 19, 2016 Have you watched Western Kentucky play at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted March 19, 2016 Report Share Posted March 19, 2016 They were a division opponent with Marshall. So I watched them a few times. I don't see more than an NFL backup if that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrb12711 Posted March 19, 2016 Report Share Posted March 19, 2016 Flugel, I appreciate the post but couldn't disagree with you more on Doughty. I was interested in him and started watching some tape and it was clear he was the product of the system by a wide margin I watched his whole start in the East/West game and he looked really bad. He threw two bad interceptions and just rattled hard by even that small amount of pressure for the scouts. One game doesn't make a player I suppose but I don't see with him at all. I do agree with you however that I'd be fine taking 2 qb's in the draft with one being the later rounds. Actually, Vernon Adams would be that guy for me who starred in the same game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flugel Posted March 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2016 Have you watched Western Kentucky play at all? Yes, and so did the people that had the 12-2 team averaging 40 points a game at Western Kentucky ranked 24th in the AP Poll. Nashville isn't really all that far from Western KY plus that program played 2 SEC Teams (one was Vandy whom they beat); so they were on as frequently here as Memphis State. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted March 19, 2016 Report Share Posted March 19, 2016 A late pick on a project QB would not be a bad thing, if you believe we can improve on Shaw (which I do). But only if we pass on the top prospects But this whole take two thing eludes me... If we spend our #2 on a QB, that QB will get the reps, the attention, the grooming. The project QB will not develop on a diet of TC scraps that disappear once the season starts. Cousins? Pending 2016 confirmation, it may just turn out he wasn't a project QB after all, but rather an underestimated prospect all along. But, it is also worth noting, a prospect who did not develop until the QB he followed was completely out of the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flugel Posted March 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2016 They were a division opponent with Marshall. So I watched them a few times. I don't see more than an NFL backup if that. I appreciate your feedback Logic and wouldn't mind seeing some ideas you have about QBs you'd be interested in if we went defense first in this draft. When it comes to QBs though - isn't your comment above the type of thing people were only willing to see out of Russell Wilson especially in comparison to THE RGIII? They'll go to their graves refusing to see an efficient leader that spends a lot of time in the film room and working to be the best he can be for one of the best teams in the NFC. Weeden had the bionic arm that slotted him way above Wilson right? Tannehill had the height Wilson lacked so guess who automatically had the stronger arm and better vision in the mock drafts popularity circles? The more people read those plus watching videos of their greatest moments in college - the more they tend to see what they're being told to see. How do we know the only 2 right QBs in this draft for us are Wentz and Goff? We don't and that's the beauty of how many different directions a team like our's can go in this draft. Long before that.a guy like Joe Montana was a no no anywhere above round 4 especially if one looked at his college passing stats; before Brady Quinn got ordained as the alleged "most pro ready" QB of his draft class. Before that, a guy like Rick Mirer was round 1 material? Or how about the year we were only smart enough to be weighing the difference between Couch and Akili Smith when the NFL team coming off the worst record in 98 says "thank you for gift wrapping us McNabb." And why weren't we interested? He played in a Veer Option Offense at SU very similar to the one Brett Favre played in at So Miss so we deemed it too unconventional while the playbook of Hal Mumme Jr at Kentucky consisted of huddle dirt. And you said you watched him only a few times right? What were people saying about Cardale after only seeing him a few times during the 2014 season/post season? This goes for me too, but didn't the 2015 story of Cardale remind us there's more to QB evaluation that just 3 games? If your angle is the competition faced, how can you give Cardale tougher opponents than 2 teams in the BCS playoffs (1 being Bama and the other being the team that won the first round playoff game game). That said, 1-2 assessments later showed us the same guy flat lining against lesser opponents in 2015. So is he the next Derek Anderson or Cam Newton? So IMO we're drafting a QB that shows up with a good starting point in Doughty. You don't have to agree; but I'm thinking he's very similar to Andy Dalton coming out; but the school size and schedule slips him into mid-late round bargain area. Come to think of it, how many competitive defenses did Weeden, RGIII, and even Dalton have to face on their regular season schedules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawg2fan Posted March 19, 2016 Report Share Posted March 19, 2016 The problem I see is Josh will not play more 5 or 6 games (Injury prone). So this QB will have to come in and perform right away. Hmmm! It's worth a gamble, just not sure its the right one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flugel Posted March 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2016 A late pick on a project QB would not be a bad thing, if you believe we can improve on Shaw (which I do). But only if we pass on the top prospects But this whole take two thing eludes me... If we spend our #2 on a QB, that QB will get the reps, the attention, the grooming. The project QB will not develop on a diet of TC scraps that disappear once the season starts. Cousins? Pending 2016 confirmation, it may just turn out he wasn't a project QB after all, but rather an underestimated prospect all along. But, it is also worth noting, a prospect who did not develop until the QB he followed was completely out of the way. I probably did a bad job of articulating this but the take 2 idea was only meant if we pass on the QB at #2 especially now that we are being awarded 3 comp picks to our originally scheduled draft volume of 8. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flugel Posted March 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2016 Flugel, I appreciate the post but couldn't disagree with you more on Doughty. I was interested in him and started watching some tape and it was clear he was the product of the system by a wide margin I watched his whole start in the East/West game and he looked really bad. He threw two bad interceptions and just rattled hard by even that small amount of pressure for the scouts. One game doesn't make a player I suppose but I don't see with him at all. I do agree with you however that I'd be fine taking 2 qb's in the draft with one being the later rounds. Actually, Vernon Adams would be that guy for me who starred in the same game. Okay, at least I know where you are coming from and I appreciate your specifics why. The only thing I'll caution you and others on is how much to make out of an All Star Game even though you acknowledged 1 game doesn't make a player. For example, Charlie Frye was the MVP of the Senior Bowl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flugel Posted March 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2016 The problem I see is Josh will not play more 5 or 6 games (Injury prone). So this QB will have to come in and perform right away. Hmmm! It's worth a gamble, just not sure its the right one. Starting any rookie QB in Cleveland with the massive rebuild underway is a gamble at best IMO. I feel like we would be setting him up for failure at the extent of exhausting the guy's confidence way before it's necessary. We have the worst WR Corps of my lifetime when 3 TDs led them in TD receptions in 2014 and 5 TD receptions led them in 2015. Sometimes the inexperienced QBs sentenced to the mess here on the perimeter have become public enemy #1 by the end of September. There is no Marvin Harrison and Marshall Faulk awaiting our new QB, which soon thereafter added guys like Edge James, Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark (also All American performers in college like Harrison and Faulk were if memory serves me right). We have a bunch of guys that couldn't start anywhere else that would struggle to make other football teams. For example, Pryor was unemployed. This means a lot of extra attention aimed at Barnidge and a progression read loaded with uh-oh. I thought Phil Simms said it best when he looked at Hawkins and Gabriel in the formation saying look at what Cleveland is surrendering at the WR position right now with it's size disadvantage against this physical secondary secondary. Sound like an educated NFL passer who knows the difference between acceptable and unacceptable? Now, if talent around QB in many important areas changes significantly during the draft - my take about how early we should start a rookie QB is subject to change. We can keep Connor Shaw if we need another stunt man with starts under his belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted March 19, 2016 Report Share Posted March 19, 2016 lynch is a bum. if they selected him for whatever reason their analytics would say that analytics means jack shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted March 19, 2016 Report Share Posted March 19, 2016 I probably did a bad job of articulating this but the take 2 idea was only meant if we pass on the QB at #2 especially now that we are being awarded 3 comp picks to our originally scheduled draft volume of 8. Just a thought. Got ya... cast a wider net into the depths of Days 2 and 3... If the evaluations are there to place the QB "projectspects" in the midst of other position players, then maybe, but there are more and more position players I like on Days 2 and 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joedawg69 Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 Looking at what we have on our roster, taking one QB early 1st, 2nd, or 3rd round, and then taking a second QB later in the 4th, 5th, 6th, or 7th round would be fine with me so long as they are doing it because both were the best picks available. I would not mind getting Goff or Wentz but I am not going to be upset if we don't either. So long as we don't reach with our picks, I will be happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrb12711 Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 Okay, at least I know where you are coming from and I appreciate your specifics why. The only thing I'll caution you and others on is how much to make out of an All Star Game even though you acknowledged 1 game doesn't make a player. For example, Charlie Frye was the MVP of the Senior Bowl. Yeah true-honestly in just my opinion he didn't pass the eye test at all. He looked like a man playing with boys in really the 2nd/3rd tier of draft prospects. I know my smell test means jack shit but just how I felt about how he looked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flugel Posted March 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 Looking at what we have on our roster, taking one QB early 1st, 2nd, or 3rd round, and then taking a second QB later in the 4th, 5th, 6th, or 7th round would be fine with me so long as they are doing it because both were the best picks available. I would not mind getting Goff or Wentz but I am not going to be upset if we don't either. So long as we don't reach with our picks, I will be happy. Understandable, we have 11 picks. Also consider this. If you were an undrafted FA eyeing up your best chance to not only make an NFL roster but to get significant playing time right away - would there be a better choice for you than Cleveland in 2016? How could there be? Look what Seattle did in the mid-late rounds as well as 2 of their starting WRs being undrafted (Kearse & Baldwin). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joedawg69 Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 Very true Fugel, very true. It is hard to say what you can find later in the draft if you have the coaching talent needed to polish diamonds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flugel Posted March 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 Yeah true-honestly in just my opinion he didn't pass the eye test at all. He looked like a man playing with boys in really the 2nd/3rd tier of draft prospects. I know my smell test means jack shit but just how I felt about how he looked. Appreciate your honesty my man. One thing you should always do is trust your eye balls. When I watched the combine, I had to rewind twice all day and both times it was him. Then I remembered this is the guy they kept calling a potential steal for somebody mid-late in the draft on sports radio here in Nashville. I can't remember if it was Frank Wycheck or Blaine Bishop (both former Titans) but he had a big fan here thinking he could make an NFL roster. So, I checked out the numbers and saw 96 TD passes in the last 2 years. He punctuated his career with a 12-2 record in 2015 with over 5,000 yards passing and a 71.9 comp % in an offense that scored 40 points a game with receivers he's developed chemistry with. I saw him beat Vandy easier than (SEC Runner-up) Florida could. I summed it all up as the right NFL coach with the right system should be able to develop him. All that said J, when it comes to QBs I'm kind of like Bart Simpson giving advice on behavioral etiquette. 1 time when all of America told us our only choice was Tim Couch - the QB who went to the team with the worst record in 1998 was Donovan McNabb at #2 overall in 1999. Their fan base booed the pick for a Ricky Williams who would eventually take a marijuana sabbatical from football while all McNabb did was lead Philly to the playoffs from about 2000 through 2010/2011.That included 5 NFC Championship Appearances and 1 SB. I was born and raised in Upstate NY always interested in SU Football and I didn't have the first freakin clue what this guy was ready to do.Was popular opinion right about Ricky Williams being the answer to all of Philly's problems? All I knew allegedly was Tim Couch was the only thing that made sense. The more I read that everywhere - the more I believed it. I don't think he was bad considering we made the playoffs in 2002; but he wasn't the same game changer McNabb turned out to be. McNabb was doing everything Peyton Manning was doing without the Dallas Clarks, Reggie Waynes, Marvin Harrisons, Marshall Faulks/Edge James although Villanova's Brian Westbrook was a big help and TO was there for a cup of coffee. I didn't have the QB intellect to project such a thing from the 1 college program I saw more than all others. When I read the Veer Option offense was too unconventional for consideration - I bought it hook line and sinker. Andy Reid? He already Coached up a QB in GB from that style of offense at So Miss that rushed for well about 3500 yards in his high school career (Brett Favre) so he felt he had the perfect system match for McNabb. The numbers, post seasons, Pro Bowls and Conference MVPs tell us Reid got the best game changer in the 99 draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickers Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 Trade down, take Lynch use the extra pick for O Lunch sucks Tommy.. just draft Goff and roll...Wow.. I said "lunch" instead lynch.. hmm it will fit well in the NFL. LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 I have my doughts... WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 Trade down, take Lynch use the extra pick for O To trade down, you need someone willing to trade up. Lynch is slotted to go mid late first round. You probably remember how much Atlanta had to give the Browns to move up to take Julio Jones. & why the sudden change of heart? You always wanted us to take the stud when we were drafting high. lynch is a bum. if they selected him for whatever reason their analytics would say that analytics means jack shit. Maybe not a bum but a over rated Captain Checkdown, if you want to believe the analytic charts. He's a big step down from Goff or Wentz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargograw Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 PFF is obsessed with this kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 Understandable, we have 11 picks. Also consider this. If you were an undrafted FA eyeing up your best chance to not only make an NFL roster but to get significant playing time right away - would there be a better choice for you than Cleveland in 2016? How could there be? Look what Seattle did in the mid-late rounds as well as 2 of their starting WRs being undrafted (Kearse & Baldwin). Michael Bennett was an undrafted free agent as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 I think I figured out my issue with multiple QB picks in the draft... only one plays at a time. Unique among the starting 22 if you make a slight allowances for RBs. I have my doughts... Please close the window. I feel a draught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 I think I figured out my issue with multiple QB picks in the draft... only one plays at a time. Unique among the starting 22 if you make a slight allowances for RBs. Please close the window. I feel a draught. Or at least open the tap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted March 21, 2016 Report Share Posted March 21, 2016 I think I figured out my issue with multiple QB picks in the draft... only one plays at a time. Unique among the starting 22 if you make a slight allowances for RBs. Please close the window. I feel a draught. Fair enough. Next round is on me. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted March 21, 2016 Report Share Posted March 21, 2016 Trade down, take Lynch use the extra pick for O That is one possible plan. I think it may be something the analytics guys may endorse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted March 21, 2016 Report Share Posted March 21, 2016 To trade down, you need someone willing to trade up. Lynch is slotted to go mid late first round. You probably remember how much Atlanta had to give the Browns to move up to take Julio Jones. & why the sudden change of heart? You always wanted us to take the stud when we were drafting high. Ghoolie has maintained all along that Lynch is a stud.... Maybe not a bum but a over rated Captain Checkdown, if you want to believe the analytic charts. He's a big step down from Goff or Wentz. Or not......no one really knows for sure at this point. See the thread where it was listed that Russell Wilson was the 6th QB taken in his draft. Behind the Christian Ponders/Blaine Gabberts/Jake Lockers etc. All I am saying is: we don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargograw Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 PFF is obsessed with this kid. Actually I was wrong on this. It's Matt Johnson from Bowling Green that they love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Ghoolie has maintained all along that Lynch is a stud.... I proposed this elsewhere: Taking Bosa at #2...then trading up from 32 to take Lynch. Re this proposal: Does anyone think that Lynch will drop to #32? What would have to be given up to move into the mid 1st round to get him? (Assuming the PBBJ guys think enough of him to do so) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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