GOP Candidates Fueled by Evangelical Insanity

[Clevfan4life]

I haven't researched it but my guess is the Old Testament law was probably one of the more civilized types of governance among the nations in the world at the time if not the most civilized. We look back on it now and it seems harsh but you have to put it in the time period.

 

I "refuse" on all grounds to look at slavery and rape relatively nor nostalgically. Cause humans back then knew it was wrong just the same as we do today. But they still did it cause they were brainfucked into believing that they were imperfect and thus couldn't possibly be held responsible for their imperfections...so why fight it right? You wanna rape go ahead and rape....just go to confession, pay your shekels say you're sorry yada yada you'll be fine.

[Westside Steve]

Probably some murderers, priests, farmers, bakers, etc.

That's not what I meant. Thousands, even hundreds of years ago many children were born because of rapes committed by conquering forces.

 

WSS

[OldBrownsFan]

What are you basing that on? Not saying it's necessarily the case but you're clearly saying you have no idea but are asserting it anyway.

 

(that's the opposite of science, btw)

 

How about an educated guess? Anyway my *educated guess* was correct:

 

 

 

Israel’s Codes of Conduct

Compared to Surrounding Nations

 

While the Old Testament codes may sometimes offend modern sensibilities, they are far less severe and arbitrary than others of the Near East. And they consistently reflect Israel’s unique encounter with the God of grace and compassion who revealed Himself to them in the exodus.

 

http://www.crivoice.org/lawcodes.html

[Pumpkin Eater]

In OT times an unmarried woman who was not a virgin would live a lonely desolate life. Therefore the verse provides repiration (whether it was consensual or not) by forcing him to provide for her for the rest of her life if her father approves of the marriage.

 

In those times there wasn't much time to feel sorry for yourself. The law realizes what's done is done and provides for the victim.

[MLD Woody]

 

How about an educated guess? Anyway my *educated guess* was correct:

 

 

 

Israels Codes of Conduct

Compared to Surrounding Nations

 

While the Old Testament codes may sometimes offend modern sensibilities, they are far less severe and arbitrary than others of the Near East. And they consistently reflect Israels unique encounter with the God of grace and compassion who revealed Himself to them in the exodus.

 

http://www.crivoice.org/lawcodes.html

Any source that isn't most likely very biased?

 

 

They're also referencing only the near east. You said the world

[MLD Woody]

That's not what I meant. Thousands, even hundreds of years ago many children were born because of rapes committed by conquering forces.

 

WSS

and that matters here because...

[OldBrownsFan]

Any source that isn't most likely very biased?

 

 

They're also referencing only the near east. You said the world

 

Sorry Woody but you won't get this information on The Daily Show or an episode of South Park.

[gftChris]

 

How about an educated guess? Anyway my *educated guess* was correct:

 

 

 

Israel’s Codes of Conduct

Compared to Surrounding Nations

 

While the Old Testament codes may sometimes offend modern sensibilities, they are far less severe and arbitrary than others of the Near East. And they consistently reflect Israel’s unique encounter with the God of grace and compassion who revealed Himself to them in the exodus.

 

http://www.crivoice.org/lawcodes.html

So since this is basically Old Testament, right? So we're looking for the most civilised country from about 4000bc to roughly 0 (ish). And the hypothesis is that jewish countries were more civilised than others?

[OldBrownsFan]

So since this is basically Old Testament, right? So we're looking for the most civilised country from about 4000bc to roughly 0 (ish). And the hypothesis is that jewish countries were more civilised than others?

 

What I said was the Old Testament law (which came under Moses) and seems harsh by today's standards was probably the most civilized type of justice of the world during that time period when compared to other nations.

[gftChris]

 

What I said was the Old Testament law (which came under Moses) and seems harsh by today's standards was probably the most civilized type of justice when compared to other nations of the world during that time.

I'm a little shaky on timelines, but that's what, 1000 bc? to maybe 30 ad?

[OldBrownsFan]

Moses was about 1500 BC.

[gftChris]

OK so that's the period we're aiming at - most civilised civilisation from 1500 bc to jesus time was, what, israel? In the world?

[Clevfan4life]

 

How about an educated guess? Anyway my *educated guess* was correct:

 

 

 

Israels Codes of Conduct

Compared to Surrounding Nations

 

While the Old Testament codes may sometimes offend modern sensibilities, they are far less severe and arbitrary than others of the Near East. And they consistently reflect Israels unique encounter with the God of grace and compassion who revealed Himself to them in the exodus.

 

http://www.crivoice.org/lawcodes.html

 

Since u seem to know a decent amount about the OT, tell me moar about this "special" relationship that the israelites had with god. They allegedly had a stop and chat with him and documented it,!so i wanna know something....did he at any point say "ummmmm, about this slavery business....ummm"

[OldBrownsFan]

OK so that's the period we're aiming at - most civilised civilisation from 1500 bc to jesus time was, what, israel? In the world?

 

Israel's system of justice under the law of Moses as compared to justice systems of other nations during the same time period is what I am looking at.

[OldBrownsFan]

 

I "refuse" on all grounds to look at slavery and rape relatively nor nostalgically. Cause humans back then knew it was wrong just the same as we do today. But they still did it cause they were brainfucked into believing that they were imperfect and thus couldn't possibly be held responsible for their imperfections...so why fight it right? You wanna rape go ahead and rape....just go to confession, pay your shekels say you're sorry yada yada you'll be fine.

 

Two schools of thought on that and I fall on the side of not judging people centuries ago with today's standards as I don't think it is fair. Cultures and environments change and many times people are a product of their environments.

[Clevfan4life]

 

Two schools of thought on that and I fall on the side of not judging people centuries ago with today's standards as I don't think it is fair. Cultures and environments change and many times people are a product of their environments.

Ill allow that standard of judgement for things like oral and anal.......not when it comes to the forcible deprivation of a persons freedom. The concept of "owning" another human being is, was and always will be repellant to those with real souls. Whatever "it" was that allowed this back then has no place being looked at as a source for modern morality. Because if the simple basics got airballed, everything else is tainted.

[OldBrownsFan]

The claim is often made that the Bible approves of slavery, implicating God as its supporter, since rules governing slavery can be found in the both the Old and New Testament. Since virtually everyone agrees that forced, involuntary servitude is morally wrong, how can Christians justify the Bible's apparent support of slavery?

What the Old Testament says about slavery

First, we must recognize that the Bible does not say God supports slavery. In fact, the slavery described in the Old Testament was quite different from the kind of slavery we think of today - in which people are captured and sold as slaves. According to Old Testament law, anyone caught selling another person into slavery was to be executed:

"He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death." (

Exodus 21:16

)

So, obviously, slavery during Old Testament times was not what we commonly recognize as slavery, such as that practiced in the 17^th century Americas, when Africans were captured and forcibly brought to work on plantations. Unlike our modern government welfare programs, there was no safety-net for ancient Middle Easterners who could not provide a living for themselves. In ancient Israel, people who could not provide for themselves or their families sold them into slavery so they would not die of starvation or exposure. In this way, a person would receive food and housing in exchange for labor.

So, although there are rules about slavery in the Bible, those rules exist to protect the slave. Injuring or killing slaves was punishable - up to death of the offending party.¹ Hebrews were commanded not to make their slave work on the Sabbath,² slander a slave,³ have sex with another man's slave,⁴ or return an escaped slave.⁵ A Hebrew was not to enslave his fellow countryman, even if he owed him money, but was to have him work as a hired worker, and he was to be released in 7 years or in the year of jubilee (which occurred every 50 years), whichever came first.⁶ In fact, the slave owner was encouraged to "pamper his slave".⁷

What the New Testament says about slavery

Since many of the early Christians were slaves to Romans,⁸ they were encouraged to become free if possible, but not worry about it if not possible.⁹ The Roman empire practiced involuntary slavery, so rules were established for Christians who were subject to this slavery or held slaves prior to becoming Christians. The rules established for slaves were similar to those established for other Christians with regard to being subject to governing authorities.¹⁰ Slaves were told to be obedient to their master and serve them sincerely, as if serving the Lord Himself.¹¹ Paul instructed slaves to serve with honor, so that Christianity would not be looked down upon.¹²

As with slaves, instructions were given to their masters as to how they were to treat their slaves. For example, they were not to be threatened,¹³ but treated with justice and fairness.¹⁴ The text goes on to explain that this was to be done because God is the Master of all people, and does not show partiality on the basis of social status or position.^{13, 14}

There is an interesting letter in the New Testament (Philemon^15-21) that gives some insight into the problems encountered in the early Christian church regarding the issue of slavery. Paul, the author of the letter, is writing from a Roman prison awaiting trial.¹⁵ He is writing to Philemon, who runs a local Christian church out of his house¹⁶ (since Christianity was highly persecuted at this point in time). Philemon, we find out, is the master of the slave Onesimus, who has escaped but has been converted to Christianity by Paul.¹⁸ In the letter, Paul indicates that he is sending Onesimus back to Philemon.¹⁹ However, Paul says that he has confidence that Philemon will "do what is proper"¹⁷ although Paul wants him to do it by his "own free will".²⁰ Even so, Paul indicates that Onesimus would be a great aid in helping him spread the gospel.¹⁹ Paul ends the letter by saying that he has "confidence in your obedience" and indicates that he knows Philemon "will do even more than what I say."²¹ Although Paul did not directly order Philemon to release Onesimus from slavery, it would have been difficult to come away with any other conclusion from his letter.

God does not distinguish between slaves and freemen

Contrary to the claims of many skeptics, the New Testament proclaims that all people are equal in the eyes of God - even slaves:

• There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28)
• knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free. (Ephesians 6:8)
• And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him. (Ephesians 6:9)
• a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all. (Colossians 3:11)

Conclusion

The idea that God or Christianity encourages or approves of slavery is shown to be false. In fact, anybody who was caught selling another person into slavery was to be executed. However, since voluntary slavery was widely practiced during biblical times, the Bible proscribes laws to protect the lives and health of slaves. Paul, the author of many of the New Testament writings, virtually ordered the Christian Philemon to release his Christian slave from his service to "do what is proper". In addition, numerous verses from the New Testament show that God values slaves as much as any free person and is not partial to anyone's standing before other people.

 

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/slavery_bible.html

[Clevfan4life]

so why were they called slaves instead of "employees"? Am I to believe that all those women and children from conquered Canaan just voluntarily signed up for "employment"? Is this some more shifty scheisty jew speak, for which they've been famous for since written history began, to absolve them of wrong doing?

[OldBrownsFan]

so why were they called slaves instead of "employees"? Am I to believe that all those women and children from conquered Canaan just voluntarily signed up for "employment"? Is this some more shifty scheisty jew speak, for which they've been famous for since written history began, to absolve them of wrong doing?

 

Cleve your anti antisemitism is showing.

[Clevfan4life]

My best friend in the area is s jew i give him this shit slmost every day. I gave him my phone the other day and told him to ask it to call a jew....and his phone started ringing. True story. I troll him endlessly.

[Clevfan4life]

Oh and this isnt about the new testsment. Only old. I know the new testament whitewashes the old laws

[OldBrownsFan]

My best friend in the area is s jew i give him this shit slmost every day. I gave him my phone the other day and told him to ask it to call a jew....and his phone started ringing. True story. I troll him endlessly.

 

Glad to hear that. I look at Jewish history and I see an amazing people. Maybe some day you will come to realize what Mark Twain did about the Jewish history:

 

http://www.hsje.org/Mark_twain_The_Jews.htm

[LogicIsForSquares]

That's not what I meant. Thousands, even hundreds of years ago many children were born because of rapes committed by conquering forces.

 

WSS

It was a different time, yes. However, Cal was trying to argue the point that the rules from the Old Testament still apply today and that Jesus didn't change that whole thing.

[calfoxwc]

Wait, I was not. I've always said the opposite of that. You're thinking cleve? or did I mistype?

[Clevfan4life]

 

Glad to hear that. I look at Jewish history and I see an amazing people. Maybe some day you will come to realize what Mark Twain did about the Jewish history:

 

http://www.hsje.org/Mark_twain_The_Jews.htm

 

He's a good dude that's all I care about cause I know him personally. He is in finance though, "of course". So I relentlessly quiz him on how many people he's surely swindled throughout the week. As for any generalizations both positive and negative about any group of people, i'm not that much for. However, if you want some eye opening stuff, read what some of our founders said about jews. They didn't want em in the country. Washington and Jefferson thought that the moment we let them in they'll swindle the hard working man out of his earnings. I mean that's almost direct quotation.

[Clevfan4life]

Wait, I was not. I've always said the opposite of that. You're thinking cleve? or did I mistype?

 

So you're saying Jesus's actual teachings were to wipe out the OT? Well.....welcome to light Cal, you finally got it right. Need some shades for that blinding sun?

[LogicIsForSquares]

Wait, I was not. I've always said the opposite of that. You're thinking cleve? or did I mistype?

"Sure sounds like Jesus thought the Old Testament still applied."

 

That and your comment that the moral laws from the Old Testament still applying gave me that impression. if that isn't what you meant then I think it got lost in translation.

[calfoxwc]

It was a different time, yes. However, Cal was trying to argue the point that the rules from the Old Testament still apply today and that Jesus didn't change that whole thing.

No, I quoted Vapor:my comments are almost always under the asterisks.

 

Posted Yesterday, 05:26 PM

Matthew 5:18

 

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

 

Sure sounds like Jesus thought the Old Testament still applied.

[calfoxwc]

Matthew 5:18

 

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

 

Sure sounds like Jesus thought the Old Testament still applied.

weren't me.

[calfoxwc]

So you're saying Jesus's actual teachings were to wipe out the OT? Well.....welcome to light Cal, you finally got it right. Need some shades for that blinding sun? Cleve

******************************************

See above. All the religious laws in the OT were impossible to follow. We all fall short of the Glory of God.

That's what Jesus died for our sins on the Cross. It's call the Grace Gift of salvation.

that's why:

John 3:16New International Version (NIV)

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.