The Gipper Posted August 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2016 Weeden is better than Phipps. Because of how high he was drafted and the fact the he was drafted in an era where you developed young starters and took the lumps a lot longer, Phipps got quite a long look ... But he was really awful. I don't know if Weeden is better than Phipps. I kinda see them together hanging on the same vine. I only gave Phipps a bit more of a break because, as noted, he was the primary starter in a playoff year. But, yes, they are very similar. As for Oher, maybe it's your terminology. "Borderline" makes a reader think Borderline Bust in a thread about busts. If you mean Solid ... Then say solid. If you are a tackle drafted #23 and you start every year for the first 8 years of your career, and you are the starting left tackle on two Super Bowl teams, that's a solid career and a good pick for the team that drafted him and won a Super Bowl with him playing left tackle. Well, I will say, he is not shite. How about serviceable. Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted August 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2016 Bingo....Larry Anderson fumbled the OT kickoff, Browns recovered on the 23 yd line...but wait, the "whistle blew." I'm still not over it. Can we find a video of that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Post Posted August 9, 2016 Report Share Posted August 9, 2016 Re: being right. I am. Do as you're told. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted August 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2016 Bingo....Larry Anderson fumbled the OT kickoff, Browns recovered on the 23 yd line...but wait, the "whistle blew." I'm still not over it. The game was heading to sudden death. For the Browns, it was a chance to finally exorcise some demons despite blowing the lead. For Cleveland, the loss came in the most agonizing way possible: an egregious miscall. Returning the opening kickoff of the extra session, Larry Anderson fumbled for the second time, and the Browns appeared to recover. Fans watched in stunned disbelief as the orange helmets pointed toward the opposing end zone, indicating a key turnover. However, the officials ruled that their whistles had blown prior to the fumble, and the stadium erupted in glee. Across television monitors throughout the Steel City and along the shores of Lake Erie, it was entirely apparent that Anderson fumbled. In that day, prior to instant replay, it didn't matter. The Steelers maintained possession. (And Steeler fans wonder why fans of other teams feel that the refs always seem to do something to favor them. They think we are deluded. We are not. It really does happen that way.) For some reason the youtube site that accompanied the above statement says that "the video has been terminated due to multiple third party infringement. Yea....it is probably been infringed by others who have tried to put together a litany of video's where the Steeler constantly got help from the refs. The following year, in Pittsburgh, it happened again. The Browns were leading by 10 points midway through the 4th quarter....and this happened: The Steelers response drive saw a throw to Franco Harris in the flats cause more fans' hearts to hit their throats. Harris, who caught nine receptions to lead all receivers in the game, appeared to possibly fumble along the sideline. The officials incorrectly ruled that he was down by contact and the ball only dislodged because of the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted August 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2016 Do as you're told. As I tell myself, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaconHound Posted August 9, 2016 Report Share Posted August 9, 2016 I'd put Haden, Mack & Metcalf in the borderline group. Haden and Mack haven't reached their career end and have peaks, valleys & injuries. Metcalf was a kick returner taken with the 13th pick. I like Metcalf but you gotta be an every down or three down guy in the top 20. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted August 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2016 I'd put Haden, Mack & Metcalf in the borderline group. Haden and Mack haven't reached their career end and have peaks, valleys & injuries. Metcalf was a kick returner taken with the 13th pick. I like Metcalf but you gotta be an every down or three down guy in the top 20. Let's see if any single person in here agrees with you. I don't. Though, I will say, that as an offensive weapon, Metcalf was often misused by Bill Belichick. Instead of getting him out in space where he could do his magic, BB would too often just send him up the middle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaconHound Posted August 11, 2016 Report Share Posted August 11, 2016 Let's see if any single person in here agrees with you. I don't. Though, I will say, that as an offensive weapon, Metcalf was often misused by Bill Belichick. Instead of getting him out in space where he could do his magic, BB would too often just send him up the middle. Many in here believe Pryor is a Pro Bowl WR this season, not the best measuring stick. I guess 8,000 yards is pretty solid over a 13 year career and he probably was a bit underutilized. Yeah I'm probably off on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
77Bunghole Posted August 11, 2016 Report Share Posted August 11, 2016 Here is the breakdown for The Bengals since 1966: Too Soon to Tell: Cedric Ogbuehi Darquez Dennard Tyler Eifert...though he seems on the way to a plus grade Busts: Mike Cobb Akili Smith David Pollack David Verser Glen Collins Chris Perry Greg Cook David Klingler Pete Koch Kijana Carter Jack Thompson Reinard Wilson Rickey Dixon Emanuel King Billy Brooks Ricky Hunley Jason Buck Keith Rivers Borderline players: Jermain Gresham Charles Alexander Peter Warrick Brian Blados Bill Kollar Wilson Whitley Mike Reid Archie Griffin Andre Smith Dave Rimington John Copeland Joe Kelly Brian Simmons Tim McGee James Francis Ross Browner Levi Jones Glen Cameron Alfred Williams Leon Hall Vern Holland Plus players: Kevin Zeitler AJ Green Sherman White Darryl Williams Jonathan Joseph Eddie Edwards Eddie Brown Bob Johnson Dan Wilkinson Blair Bush Isaac Curtis Takeo Spikes Willie Anderson Justin Smith Carson Palmer Anthony Munoz The Bengals breakdown is as follows: Too soon: 5% Busts: 30.5% Borderline: 35.5% Plus players: 27.1% It seems more Bengals were more middle of the road rather than bust or hits. IMO, several borderline players should be listed in the plus player category. They include Mike Reid, John Copeland, Brian Simmons, Tim McGee, James Francis, Alfred Williams and Leon Hall. Greg Cook was a casualty of injury. Cook was the best in the game at his position. Bill Walsh thought he was destined to win a few Super Bowls. He was that good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted August 12, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 IMO, several borderline players should be listed in the plus player category. They include Mike Reid, John Copeland, Brian Simmons, Tim McGee, James Francis, Alfred Williams and Leon Hall. Greg Cook was a casualty of injury. Cook was the best in the game at his position. Bill Walsh thought he was destined to win a few Super Bowls. He was that good. I don't think so....as for an overall career the guys you mention either didn't last long or didn't produce up to their draft position. They stay in the middle of the road category. And yes, a short career can lead to an "average" ranking. The one guy I thought about was Reid.....I know he was a good player, but he was only in the league 5-6 years. And, yes, an injury can cause someone to be a bust. As with Cook the same can be said for Kijana Carter. Unfortunate, yes, but they still get the bust grade as they just didn't have much of a career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombo Posted August 14, 2016 Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 Mike Reid was excellent. 2 time All-Pro, 4 time all-AFC, retired to become a singer. If you get five years from a guy and he excels at the top of the league for four of them, he's a plus. Zombo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted August 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2016 Mike Reid was excellent. 2 time All-Pro, 4 time all-AFC, retired to become a singer. If you get five years from a guy and he excels at the top of the league for four of them, he's a plus. Zombo I would want 8-10 years out of a guy like that to be a plus. (and he quit to play piano, not sing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombo Posted August 15, 2016 Report Share Posted August 15, 2016 I would want 8-10 years out of a guy like that to be a plus. (and he quit to play piano, not sing). Any system that has Mike Phipps and Mike Reid in the same category is flawed. One was a very good player for their team, one was a very bad player for their team. Reid was a two-time All Pro, considered the best of the best at his position. Mike Phipps threw 40 TDs to 81 INts in his time in Cleveland and consistently was ranked as one of the worst at his position. Mike Reid left to become a full-time musician and songwriter, he does indeed sing: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted August 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2016 OK, but I would be willing to drop Phipps down to bust....and put Reid on borderline plus vs. borderline bust. I probably should have had better categories like: Plus Solid Borderline Bust. And Reid probably should have stuck to the piano. I mean, he is not totally unfortunate as a singer....but he won't cause anyone to forget Freddy Mercury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Post Posted August 15, 2016 Report Share Posted August 15, 2016 "bend but don't break Gipper" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted August 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2016 "bend but don't break Gipper" Good leaders are alway flexible. George Washington had that reputation, as did Abe LIncoln, and Teddy Roosevelt. As do I. Hell, they should just put me up on Mt. Rushmore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Post Posted August 15, 2016 Report Share Posted August 15, 2016 Good leaders are alway flexible. George Washington had that reputation, as did Abe LIncoln, and Teddy Roosevelt. As do I. Hell, they should just put me up on Mt. Rushmore. Mt Rushmore humm... Gipper, I do believe that's way after your time. You should stick to hyroglifics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdawg1 Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 I don't think so....as for an overall career the guys you mention either didn't last long or didn't produce up to their draft position. They stay in the middle of the road category. And yes, a short career can lead to an "average" ranking. The one guy I thought about was Reid.....I know he was a good player, but he was only in the league 5-6 years. And, yes, an injury can cause someone to be a bust. As with Cook the same can be said for Kijana Carter. Unfortunate, yes, but they still get the bust grade as they just didn't have much of a career. Leon Hall a borderline player? That is just silly. He was a top-10 CB for a long time. He has certainly had a better career than Joe Haden who was listed as a "plus player." Levi Jones and Brian Simmons were also very good players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted August 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 Leon Hall a borderline player? That is just silly. He was a top-10 CB for a long time. He has certainly had a better career than Joe Haden who was listed as a "plus player." I am not buying that at all....and, again, borderline doesn't mean borderline bust. Leon Hall has played for 9 years...and has not made a single Pro Bowl. I think you have to make some Pro Bowls to be considered a plus player. Joe Haden has only played 6 years and made several Pro Bowls. Joe is a Pro Bowl player, Hall is not. Levi Jones and Brian Simmons were also very good players. I would have to do more research on them....or actually, you need to produce evidence of your opinion before I revise my ranking. But clearly you guys are freaked out over semantics with the term borderline. Like I said, I probably needed to break this down into the 4 categories that I had put above, instead of the original just 3 categories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted August 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 Many in here believe Pryor is a Pro Bowl WR this season, not the best measuring stick. I guess 8,000 yards is pretty solid over a 13 year career and he probably was a bit underutilized. Yeah I'm probably off on that one. Eric Metcalf's 2 punt returns to beat the Steelers in that one game makes him a plus player in the minds of the Browns....no matter what else he did in his career. Fair to say? After watching that again, you can tell how happy Chris Collinsworth was to have that happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdawg1 Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 Leon Hall a borderline player? That is just silly. He was a top-10 CB for a long time. He has certainly had a better career than Joe Haden who was listed as a "plus player." I am not buying that at all....and, again, borderline doesn't mean borderline bust. Leon Hall has played for 9 years...and has not made a single Pro Bowl. I think you have to make some Pro Bowls to be considered a plus player. Joe Haden has only played 6 years and made several Pro Bowls. Joe is a Pro Bowl player, Hall is not. Levi Jones and Brian Simmons were also very good players. I would have to do more research on them....or actually, you need to produce evidence of your opinion before I revise my ranking. But clearly you guys are freaked out over semantics with the term borderline. Like I said, I probably needed to break this down into the 4 categories that I had put above, instead of the original just 3 categories. Not that PFF is the be all end all, but I'll take their word over evaluating players based on how many pro bowls they made. https://www.profootballfocus.com/five-years-of-pff-grades-top-10-cornerbacks/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted August 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 Not that PFF is the be all end all, but I'll take their word over evaluating players based on how many pro bowls they made. https://www.profootballfocus.com/five-years-of-pff-grades-top-10-cornerbacks/ Well, I will take my own judgment. And the judgment of NFL players, coaches etc. who vote on the Pro Bowl. There is no point in time that I would ever agree to trade Joe Haden for Leon Hall in their prime.. And another ranking system: PFR would tend to agree with my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted August 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 Leon Hall a borderline player? That is just silly. He was a top-10 CB for a long time. He has certainly had a better career than Joe Haden who was listed as a "plus player." Levi Jones and Brian Simmons were also very good players. Levi Jones might make it to a "solid player", not a Plus player. Never in 9 years made the Pro Bowl. His CA is about average for a tackle. Make him a "solid"...not a plus The same for Simmons. No Pro Bowls. Jones had a better annual average CA. His running mate Takeo Spikes is more what I had in mind for a plus player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdawg1 Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 The pro bowl is really about the worst way to evaluate players. It's not really worth discussing if you are sold on this idea that only players that make pro bowls are good. Vince Young made 2 pro bowls, was he a plus player? Joey Galloway never made the pro bowl. Fred Taylor never made a pro bowl. Marques Colston never made a pro bowl. All great players. Haden was good early in his career but hasn't been good since 2013. Hall has always been good even if he hasn't made pro bowls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombo Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 I think we can officially cross Mingo into the bust side. No contract next year and playing in the 4th Q of 2nd preseason game ... Done. Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Dawg Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 Justin Gilbert has just officially crossed into "bust" territory last night in my opinion. There are several posters on this board that placed his shortcomings on the previous coaching staff. This guy can't tackle, or cover a receiver and there's no way in hell Hue and company will be able to "coach him up". I also agree with Zombo, it's time to part ways with Mingo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Mike Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 Justin Gilbert has just officially crossed into "bust" territory last night in my opinion. There are several posters on this board that placed his shortcomings on the previous coaching staff. This guy can't tackle, or cover a receiver and there's no way in hell Hue and company will be able to "coach him up". I also agree with Zombo, it's time to part ways with Mingo. I wonder WHY Gilbert even attempts to play...he shows the energy & passion of a "slug". Neither he nor Mingo show any instincts. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Dawg Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 I wonder WHY Gilbert even attempts to play...he shows the energy & passion of a "slug". Neither he nor Mingo show any instincts. Mike Absolutely Mike, Gilbert & Mingo are certainly athletic freaks and have the tools to be elite. For some unknown reason (lack of football talent?) they just show no signs of potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted August 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 The pro bowl is really about the worst way to evaluate players. It's not really worth discussing if you are sold on this idea that only players that make pro bowls are good. Vince Young made 2 pro bowls, was he a plus player? Joey Galloway never made the pro bowl. Fred Taylor never made a pro bowl. Marques Colston never made a pro bowl. All great players. Haden was good early in his career but hasn't been good since 2013. Hall has always been good even if he hasn't made pro bowls. Hall has been average at best...except perhaps for one year. Haden had a bad year last year due to injuries. You think you know more than the players of the NFL, the coaches of the NFL, the GMs of the NFL...who have put Joe Haden into the Pro Bowl....and who have never seen fit to put Hall into the Pro Bowl. Hall: an average NFL player. Serviceable, yes. Probably better than a lot of guys the Browns have had.....but not a plus player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted August 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 Justin Gilbert has just officially crossed into "bust" territory last night in my opinion. There are several posters on this board that placed his shortcomings on the previous coaching staff. This guy can't tackle, or cover a receiver and there's no way in hell Hue and company will be able to "coach him up". I also agree with Zombo, it's time to part ways with Mingo. Who picked those guys? What kind of talent evaluation system do we have? (not to mention the JMZ fiasco) Are Danny Shelton and Cam Erving playing at anything even approaching a C level grade of performance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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