Clevfan4life Posted September 2, 2016 Report Share Posted September 2, 2016 Inknow you guys are gonna roll ur eyes and say not this again.... But im sorry our 3-4 personnel get manhandled, and that was the bears 2nd stringers to start the game. We were playing our 4 man looks for most of tje 1st half and we saw serviceable play there. I even saw armonty make one heck of an adjustment to grtting out to the flat after seemingly getting sealed inside. When we started seeing out 3-4 personnel they were getting slapped around. Even orchard didnt look all that great but he didnt look horrible. That cam johnson guy was getting tossed around. We just dont look solid when we're in tje 3-4. Nassib and ogbah still need work setting tje edge but im pleasantly surprised how the defense looks with them out there together. Our long down nascar packages kind of have the potential to be sick here in a year or two. You can give the big boys a breather and run armonty,nassib, ogbah and orchard. And one guy that i think would make one of the biggest impacts on defense in the 4-3 is schobert. To me he looks like a way better 4-3 blitzing olb'er. And even though youndont want him doing it all game, he doesnt look completely helpless locking up with a tackle like mingo did when a big boy would shoot him the stink eye. I know....this post gets repeated at tje beginning of every year. Im sick of it too cause every year i see personnel that are better fit for one scheme get shoehorned into another. I just hope finally horton see's that the new core of this defense are better fit for 4 man fronts. You can play with some 3-4 looks by leaving in orchard and schobert....but please dont make that our base defense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Post Posted September 2, 2016 Report Share Posted September 2, 2016 Fuck it. Let's go smoke some crack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted September 2, 2016 Report Share Posted September 2, 2016 Fuck it. Let's go smoke some crack. Hell yeah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted September 2, 2016 Report Share Posted September 2, 2016 I think most of us who have a better feel for defenses would totally agree that our players are a better fit for the 4-3. If we slog through the season still trying the 3-4 half the time, then Horton needs to see the door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted September 2, 2016 Report Share Posted September 2, 2016 I think most of us who have a better feel for defenses would totally agree that our players are a better fit for the 4-3. If we slog through the season still trying the 3-4 half the time, then Horton needs to see the door. I wasn't o.k. with Horton the first time he was here. I imagine if he still has the same types of struggles that he will see the door after a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrownsnMopar Posted September 2, 2016 Report Share Posted September 2, 2016 I can surely see Horton getting the Hue....way before Hue gets the shoe! Now on with the big show! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comeonman Posted September 2, 2016 Report Share Posted September 2, 2016 I can surely see Horton getting the Hue....way before Hue gets the shoe! Now on with the big show!Nice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted September 2, 2016 Report Share Posted September 2, 2016 Fuck it. Let's go smoke some crack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombo Posted September 2, 2016 Report Share Posted September 2, 2016 I gotta edit this topic title ... any suggestions? Zombo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted September 2, 2016 Report Share Posted September 2, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted September 2, 2016 Report Share Posted September 2, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombo Posted September 2, 2016 Report Share Posted September 2, 2016 OK, I went with the crack theme. Zombo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted September 2, 2016 Report Share Posted September 2, 2016 Here's the thing. The differences in personnel between the schemes are really only incredibly different at the backers. Beyond that the lineman are still very similar. Except the Nose might be a bit of a bigger guy asked to two gap on occasion. You don't have an issue with the 34 itself. You have an issue with your pass rushers and your gap assignments. Those same problems will transcend scheme. Can't rush the passer now? You won't consistently doing it the other way either. Can't stop the run? Same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjp28 Posted September 2, 2016 Report Share Posted September 2, 2016 I've always preferred the 4-3 system unless you absolutely do not have enough big guys to staff the D line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flugel Posted September 3, 2016 Report Share Posted September 3, 2016 Inknow you guys are gonna roll ur eyes and say not this again.... But im sorry our 3-4 personnel get manhandled, I like your thinking. If you've been reading the board since the draft - a lot of us seem to think we're wired better for a 4-3. I've been saying I'm sick of the passive 3-4 D in Cleveland since 99. Even when we had the #1 defense against the run in 1986, we weren't very good at hurrying passers. If you have the personnel to warrant the 3-4, it's fine. How frequently have we had the right LBer Corps here that makes that a fun defense to watch? The only LBer who showed up with ideal instincts against the pass was Dansby, who got injured in the back half of our 7 win season in 2014. I hate how married Horton is to the 5 technique (within his 3-4) playing 2 gap. This gets tough to watch when he moves girthier DT/NT pedigrees to the 5 technique (ie: Ahtyba Rubin, Phil Taylor, John Hughes and Jamie Meder) especially when the outside gap can stretch as far as the sideline. Consequently, we often had no outside contain turning plays inside toward pursuit. The first time Horton was here it felt like everyone was turning the corner on us while Buster Skrine and Joe Haden had to make a lot more tackles defending the run. It was a good thing both guys were good tacklers at the time; but the wear and tear of it all had Buster playing through an injured shoulder. In fairness, the last time Horton was here we had a lot of injuries up front so problem solving probably had to feel like a lot of square pegging round holes. The first press conference I heard him speak in back in 2013 was about the "hybrid fronts" and the "big men that can run and little guys that can hit." Sound like the Titanic meeting up with a midnight glacier? This wasn't exactly Dick LeBeau's roided up Pittsburgh Defense (ie; Pollyneedsahaircut, Porter, Harrison and whatever other junkies come to mind). Clearly, we didn't have that personnel so it became what can Ray do with what's here? When your front line foot speed is all 2 gap pedigrees, they're probably not going to be very helpful when we do get some containment outside turning ball carriers up inside toward pursuit. Sometimes our 235 lb OLB (Mingo) was asked to provide outside contain which was a lot like asking Raggedy Ann to consistently beat 320-330 lb athletes starting at LT in the NFL. Today, Nassib is listed in at 277 lbs in 1 NFL Preview while Ogbah is listed at 273 lbs when/if we consider using them both as DEs in a 4 man front. Cooper, not to be confused with Meder, should be able to share rotational reps with either guy. Same holds true with Armonty Bryant when he come off suspension. This way, guys like Hughes, Meder, Shelton and Paea can be our inside rotation in a 4 man front. Kirksey played OLB throughout college if we go to a 4 man front; so we could use him and Orchard as the 2 OLBs with Jones in the middle. Schobert and Scooby aren't ready for reps just yet but that may be subject to change. Meanwhile, Alexander showed up with the best first step instinct of our rookie LBer class at least during preseason vanilla. Living in Nashville, sports radio the last 2 years had countless Tits fans calling in complaining about the worst tackling on their team earning the right to draft 2nd overall in 2015 and 1st overall in 2016. There were a lot of massive zone blitz coverage breakdowns like some of the ghost towns we witnessed in coverage back in 2013. The need to bring in the real Dick LeBeau as a consultant to the guy wanting to be the next Dick LeBeau in 2015 meant Horton remained just as in over his head as he was here previously. Let's hope Hue can challenge him to be more than just a 1 trick pony. Let's also hope Horton hears a Hue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted September 3, 2016 Report Share Posted September 3, 2016 Excellent write-up Flugs! My son the D coach would be proud of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flugel Posted September 3, 2016 Report Share Posted September 3, 2016 Excellent write-up Flugs! My son the D coach would be proud of you. Thanks Ag! That's really cool that your son coaches football. Believe it or not, I used to coach high school football in Upstate NY way back in B.C. (Before Cellphones not to be confused with Before ColorTV). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flugel Posted September 3, 2016 Report Share Posted September 3, 2016 Here's the thing. The differences in personnel between the schemes are really only incredibly different at the backers. Beyond that the lineman are still very similar. Except the Nose might be a bit of a bigger guy asked to two gap on occasion. You don't have an issue with the 34 itself. You have an issue with your pass rushers and your gap assignments. Those same problems will transcend scheme. Can't rush the passer now? You won't consistently doing it the other way either. Can't stop the run? Same thing. This is a really good post Tia - thank you! I've seen different variations of the 3-4 defense dating back as far as Curley Culp on the Nose in Houston back in the 70s. Some Pro Bowl NTs like Casey Hampton and Bob Golic weren't 1 gappers. That said, Golic's backup David Puzzuoli would get us as many as 5 to 6 sacks from the NT position just in limited back-up duty reps. That means our DC changed what he asked our our NTs at the time based on his perception of strength the player offered us. The invaluable guys wired for either scheme up front (that don't come along every draft) are the JJ Watt and Richard Seymour types. People forget when BB showed up to NE, had a Pro Bowl MLB Ted Johnson warranting the ability to stay in a 4-3 until an outrageous volume of injuries up front forced his hand to go to a 3-4 defense. This is when a Richard Seymour comes in handy. I once thought JJ Watt could be a Poor Man's Richard Seymour without realizing I would later be saying Seymour was a Poor Man's JJ Watt. IMO the Robert Quinn pedigrees that come along with some impressive up field pass rush skills along with how often he makes backside clampdown tackles for losses when he's often untouched in blocking schemes neglecting to hinge him off aren't - can be liabilities against the run when the running play comes directly at them. Someone pointed this out about Nassib struggling on occasion when the run came directly AT him. This is why you don't want a Quinn or a Nassib handcuffed to a Dick LeBeau 3-4 alignment assigned to a 2 gap integrity at a 5 technique. Neither guy is wired to be Brett Keisel. The risk-reward intrigue of it all is if this pass rusher can get his defense a sack for a big loss ultimately turning the next down and distance into an inevitable passing situation. Quinn has made 2 Pro Bowls for all his sacks, QB pressures and backside tackles for losses despite the reality that many teams prefer to run right at him. The defense in Pittsburgh under LeBeau that Ray Horton got his defensive coaching potty training in used to have young LBers in training watching roided/raged up Pro Bowl performers in front of them for a year or 2 before they were ready to begin with enough knowledge to be comfortable/successful in the complex schemes. With the exception of occasional slants to the wide side of the field (or strength of offensive formation) while LBers sraped the other way, their d-line were usually responsible for a 2 gap integrity so their LBers could make the plays. Our situation beginning in the draft room since 1999, says this isn't the right place to implement such a scheme where all success is predicated off the quick/instinctive LBer Corps behind a skilled personnel group eating blockers up front. Mike Vrabel actually struggled as a DE in Pittsburgh before BB found a much better niche for him standing up as a LBer in NE. The personnel we have at LBer right now will probably struggle in pass coverage regardless of whether we have 3 or 4 up front. Therefore, why not choose the front and gap scheme that gets people like Meder (at DT) and guys like Ogbah and Nassib (at end) up field enough to hurry a throw or cause a RB to belly back or change direction (which can also help pursuit). Having Orchard as an OLBer also invites the ability to use a lot of x-stunt blitzes. On these plays,our DE gets the walk off coverage duty outside in the flats while Orchard gets the sic em duty shooting inside from his OLBer spot. At this time, we don't look like we have very many guys wired to be good 5 techniques playing solid 2 gap so why gag on it more than we have to? If we go 0-16 square pegging the round hole, the DC is a goner explaining why we shouldn't even attempt it in the first place with this personnel group. Furthermore, I just don't think we have the speed, instincts and experience volume from our LB Corps within a Dick LeBeau system to where we could expect them to play fast enough to succeed. That being the case, do we coddle up in a fetal position rope a dope? Or do we swing and sting with a little sic em, sock em and sack em? You can't win a fight if you refuse to throw a punch... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted September 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2016 I dont care anymore either about 4-3 vs 3-4. U run what u've got the talent for period end of discussion. I dont see any identity whatsoever when we're in a 3-4. Our edges routinely get routed from just one blocker. I saw ogbah and nassib make sone mistakes with pad angles when they tried to set thevedge and had to deal with more than one guy. But at least they have the ability right now to collapse the pocket, the edge protect will come when they get stronger. I just see a better rotation at DE than i see at the 3-4 olb'er position. I also see llb'ers that csn do both but seem like they're better fit for the 4-3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flugel Posted September 4, 2016 Report Share Posted September 4, 2016 I dont care anymore either about 4-3 vs 3-4. U run what u've got the talent for period end of discussion. I dont see any identity whatsoever when we're in a 3-4. Our edges routinely get routed from just one blocker. I saw ogbah and nassib make sone mistakes with pad angles when they tried to set thevedge and had to deal with more than one guy. But at least they have the ability right now to collapse the pocket, the edge protect will come when they get stronger. I just see a better rotation at DE than i see at the 3-4 olb'er position. I also see llb'ers that csn do both but seem like they're better fit for the 4-3. Precisely! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted September 4, 2016 Report Share Posted September 4, 2016 Here's the thing. The differences in personnel between the schemes are really only incredibly different at the backers. Beyond that the lineman are still very similar. Except the Nose might be a bit of a bigger guy asked to two gap on occasion. You don't have an issue with the 34 itself. You have an issue with your pass rushers and your gap assignments. Those same problems will transcend scheme. Can't rush the passer now? You won't consistently doing it the other way either. Can't stop the run? Same thing. Not sure, tia... Only through the 1st QTR of the Bears preseason game, but it seems to me we play with a different attitude in 4-3. Could be as simple as our rook "DEs'" comfort level with being in a 3-point, but that ain't nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopDawg31 Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 Based on what we saw in the preseason, I think Horton is going to mix it up with 4 man fronts. At some point Ogbah and Nassib need to be on the field at the same time. All the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flugel Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 Based on what we saw in the preseason, I think Horton is going to mix it up with 4 man fronts. At some point Ogbah and Nassib need to be on the field at the same time. All the time. Agreed! Plus, the last time Horton was here and we had Ahtyba Rubin and Phil Taylor slow footin their outside gap integrity out of a 5 technique 2 gap role while opponents seemed to turn the corner on us with ease. Our depth chart currently shows Hughes and Paea as the DE/5 Techniques which doesn't expedite our pass rush while it doesn't exactly promise us improvement over Hughes and Taylor. The difference this time around is we don't have as many injuries on the d-line forcing the desperate move to put the big guys in quick sand. In fairness, Horton did say he wanted to use hybrid fronts the first time he was here. Des Bryant is a good 5 technique so his absence makes that front even less intriguing. If opposing OCs see 3 chubby mannequins in a 3 point, we're looking at burnt toast in the secondary or the equivalent of BINGO FREE SPACE against the sweeps. The good 3-4 defenses I've seen over the years always sported great and/or experienced LBer Corps justifying the purpose of scheme and alignment. Are we impressive enough or deep enough to keep putting 4 LBers out there? Kirksey does have OLB in his past while I would LOVE to see an x-stunt blitz utilizing Orchard from an OLB spot. While a 3-4 may give our LBers smaller, more defined zones to cover - the guys up front look like passers will have all day to exploit our zone coverages and transitions. Last time Horton was here we had Ghost towns out there. I have to believe he remembers this. If not, Horton Hears a Boo better turn into Horton Hears a Hue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 The obvious........Coaches Bullychuck and Payton have taken Sheard and Kruger and put them back at DE.... Maybe thats why they win Super Bowls.....just thinking out loud.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flugel Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 The obvious........Coaches Bullychuck and Payton have taken Sheard and Kruger and put them back at DE.... Maybe thats why they win Super Bowls.....just thinking out loud.... Dick Jauron had Sheard at DE too. That didn't suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 Dick Jauron had Sheard at DE too. That didn't suck. Nope....if folks remember, Sheard had a very strong rookie year and quickly became one of my favorite Browns and one, I was hoping, would develop into a GREAT player.... But, in year 2, following his strong showing at DE......Ray Horton showed up and switched him (and Paul "same story" Kruger) to OLB......the rest is (very ugly) history... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flugel Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 Nope....if folks remember, Sheard had a very strong rookie year and quickly became one of my favorite Browns and one, I was hoping, would develop into a GREAT player.... But, in year 2, following his strong showing at DE......Ray Horton showed up and switched him (and Paul "same story" Kruger) to OLB......the rest is (very ugly) history... Zactly! But yeah, Sheard was a Defensive Player of the Year in the Big East coming out of a 3 point stance before Jauron tapped his assets. Horton came in and renamed him "Stay." These young edge rushers used to exploding up field aren't used to "Come here STAY" commands. I've seen a lot of paralysis from analysis from guys trying to make the transition from DE to OLB. It's a big reason I remain reluctant to trust it over the years Mud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Mike Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 Please, PLEASE let us play a 4-3. I'm certainly no expert, but the 3-4 has always struck me as a game long prevent D & I despise prevent Ds. Let the young guys learn OJT.....my choices for front 7..... Nassib, Shelton, Meder, Ogbah Orchard, Davis, Kirksey. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 Not sure, tia... Only through the 1st QTR of the Bears preseason game, but it seems to me we play with a different attitude in 4-3. Could be as simple as our rook "DEs'" comfort level with being in a 3-point, but that ain't nothing. Hence my emphasis on mentioning the biggest difference are the OLB's. To me, finding a collegiate DE and turning him into successful 2pt player might be the hardest thing to project and coach. It takes quite a while before you reap any real benefits. Biggest exceptions to that rule I can think of would be Aldon Smith and Mack. However both of those players had time and coaching as rush linebackers while still in school. Now that I think of it, Aldon really didn't play from a 2pt much in his monster rookie year. Ogba and Carl have not received that type of time at the position before. Plus I don't see either possessing the physical makeup for the spot. Seeing that most defenses spend their time in the nickel, I'd say we'll be in our four man front 65-70% of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 Home movie of you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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