Polian to Rams or Bears Move Over Sashi .....

[The Gipper]

 

Temper, temper, Gip...

 

Didn't do the search did you? If you had, you'd know I don't think it is "one guy". The search term was a clue.

No, and I never will. Just fucking say it or shut the fuck up. In case you hadn't see the thread in the Barber Shop you should know that I am not feeling well enough to play stupid games at this point.

[Tour2ma]

Never have been in the Barber Shop... at least I don't think I have.

 

Sorry you're ill...

 

Get better... so I can ride your ass again...

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

 

 

Well, if you don't trust him to be a good evaluator and you think he's terrible at his job, and the reports are that the Browns love Mitch Trubisky, it stands to reason that you don't believe Mitch Trubisky is a good football player.

 

No, it doesn't. That is illogical. I am nothing but logical. I am not trusting "his"...whoever the fuck "he" is.. evaluation of Trubisky. I am trusting my own and the fact that the Browns know they need a QB.

 

 

Perfect. Problem solved. We'll just take Myles Garrett instead.

 

 

So you're saying that you have the same evaluation of talent of Trubisky that the Browns have?

 

But I thought the Browns talent evaluation was terrible? So either Trubisky is bad, you're bad, or the Browns know what they're doing.

[Tour2ma]

I saw that coming...

[The Gipper]

 

So you're saying that you have the same evaluation of talent of Trubisky that the Browns have?

 

No. That is not what I am saying. I am saying that the Browns should have the same evaluation of his talent that I do. that they should recognize that they need a QB. That they should recognize that he is likely the prospect they should be "honing in" on.

 

But I thought the Browns talent evaluation was terrible? So either Trubisky is bad, you're bad, or the Browns know what they're doing.

Or Trubuski is good, I am good, and they are smart enough to follow along. Which hopefully they are.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

 

So you're saying that you have the same evaluation of talent of Trubisky that the Browns have?

 

No. That is not what I am saying. I am saying that the Browns should have the same evaluation of his talent that I do. that they should recognize that they need a QB. That they should recognize that he is likely the prospect they should be "honing in" on.

 

But I thought the Browns talent evaluation was terrible? So either Trubisky is bad, you're bad, or the Browns know what they're doing.

Or Trubuski is good, I am good, and they are smart enough to follow along. Which hopefully they are.

 

 

So you had your own evaluation of Trubisky before the Browns ever did?

[The Gipper]

 

So you had your own evaluation of Trubisky before the Browns ever did?

No, that is not what I said. Are you being purposely obtuse, or is this just the way of you?

 

I mean, now that Trump has been elected is it en vogue to be thick headed? (lets see the reaction that gets)

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

No, that is not what I said. Are you being purposely obtuse, or is this just the way of you?

 

I mean, now that Trump has been elected is it en vogue to be thick headed? (lets see the reaction that gets)

 

"Or Trubuski is good, I am good, and they are smart enough to follow along."

 

Curious verbiage there for someone who isn't claiming they were the first to do something.

[The Gipper]

 

"Or Trubuski is good, I am good, and they are smart enough to follow along."

 

Curious verbiage there for someone who isn't claiming they were the first to do something.

Well, I don't think it is me they have to follow, really. They just have to do the right, smart thing. And I believe drafting Trubisky is that thing.

But, if you want to give me credit, I will take it. How much does that pay?

[miktoxic]

i like the way some think or know it's a consensus thing, yet throw only one mug out there from the front office to speak of player acquisitions..........sashi.

 

if it's true that it is a consensus thing then i guess if one get's fired, they all get fired.

 

and berry was the guy for the colts since 2012? i can name only one good player they had drafted then AND since then.

 

thank god we got him!

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

i like the way some think or know it's a consensus thing, yet throw only one mug out there from the front office to speak of player acquisitions..........sashi.

 

if it's true that it is a consensus thing then i guess if one get's fired, they all get fired.

 

and berry was the guy for the colts since 2012? i can name only one good player they had drafted then AND since then.

 

thank god we got him!

Yeah, if one gets fired, they probably all get fired. That's normally how these things work.

[miktoxic]

Yeah, if one gets fired, they probably all get fired. That's normally how these things work.

 

yeah, i know arod. amazing how some can think a coordinator here or there can get canned and keep the rest of the staff together BUT in the FO that's unheard of,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,??

[gftChris]

i like the way some think or know it's a consensus thing, yet throw only one mug out there from the front office to speak of player acquisitions..........sashi.

 

if it's true that it is a consensus thing then i guess if one get's fired, they all get fired.

 

and berry was the guy for the colts since 2012? i can name only one good player they had drafted then AND since then.

 

thank god we got him!

Sashi gets to speak because he has final say. Gather the consensus from scouts & coaches, then make a decision. That's his job, so he does the speaking. Make sense?

 

In terms of who's involved in the discussions, start with Andrew Berry, who unlike you think was *not* involved in drafting. He was head of pro scouting. So there's that. And if you look at the players we've brought in from other teams, it doesn't look so bad (Collins, Taylor, Reynolds, Cooper, Davis etc).

 

Our director of college scouting is a guy called Bobby Vega. He's been in scouting, basically exclusively with the browns, for 10 seasons. Take that for what you will.

 

But equally importantly, you have the coaches. Everyone was raving about Hue Jackson being such a great football mind when he was hired a year ago, now he's taken over the 3-13 browns who were stripped bare of veteran talent and all of a sudden he's a know-nothing jackass? No, not buying it. If he's fired he walks in to another OC gig anywhere. Al Saunders, the WR coach, has been coaching in the league for 30+ years, he knows his stuff. Pep Hamilton has been coaching for 20 years, including OC, HC positions, and QB coaching. Kirby Wilson is the 'run game coordinator' or some shit. He, apparently, "has coached five running backs who rank in the top 25 for career rushing yards (Emmitt Smith #1, Curtis Martin #4, Edgerrin James #11, Adrian Peterson #17 and Thomas Jones #25)". So he knows talent.

 

The D side is less experienced, but the point remains - the 'football guys' in the front office are Hue Jackson and his senior coaches, Saunders, Hamilton, Horton. They, along with the scouts, make up the 'football brain trust' and Sashi is there to pull it all together. If you've got most of those guys agreed on a prospect, they're probably decent.

[Mudfly]

Gather the consensus from scouts & coaches, then make a decision. That's his job, so he does the speaking. Make sense?

 

Everyone was raving about Hue Jackson being such a great football mind when he was hired a year ago, now he's taken over the 3-13 browns who were stripped bare of veteran talent and all of a sudden he's a know-nothing jackass? No, not buying it. If he's fired he walks in to another OC gig anywhere.

To me, this consensus thing is another word for compromise.....and Shashi does more than the speaking....he is the bottom line....period

 

and "everyone" wasnt raving......just a bunch of people who instantly decided because he had one season as a HC he must be great....dude has barely even been an OC and never lasted more than one year in that role....

 

most of his career has been as a position coach, including at the Bengals.....where he was for 7 years...3 as WR's coach, 1 as ST asst, 1 as DB coach, 1 as RB coach....then, finally, OC.....

 

Such a brilliant offensive mind that they made him the ST asst and then DB coach....???

[miktoxic]

if sashi is the 'bottom line' and get's final say then the consensus argument goes right out the window doesn't it?

 

bottom line someone has to have the title of GM......not co-GM or assistant GM, but GfuckingM.

[gftChris]

if sashi is the 'bottom line' and get's final say then the consensus argument goes right out the window doesn't it?

 

bottom line someone has to have the title of GM......not co-GM or assistant GM, but GfuckingM.

I'm not sure you really understand still.

[flyingfooldoug]

I understand that of our 4 man gm team, that they have a combined on field football experience of 0, zero, Nada, nil, nothing! Add a player to the mix.

[Tour2ma]

Thanks for the help, Chris...

 

To me, this consensus thing is another word for compromise.....and Shashi does more than the speaking....he is the bottom line....period

 

Sounds like something an autocratic businessman used to making decisions would say...

 

if sashi is the 'bottom line' and get's final say then the consensus argument goes right out the window doesn't it?

 

bottom line someone has to have the title of GM......not co-GM or assistant GM, but GfuckingM.

 

If that's the way it works, yes, but there' nothing that says that is our way and plenty that says it is not.

 

For one thing, no one in our FO has the title, "GM". You can look for yourself...

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/front-office.html

 

What was Sashi praised for when Haslam (or the Haslams) selected him? Facilitation... bringing minds together... driving consensus building. That is his job #1.

 

Can minds meet in every instance? No. And when that happens his role is to recognize it and decide when it is time to close the book on the discussion, and move the FO onto the next decision. This is the nature of the vast majority of his decisions.

 

But remember the definition of consensus... it is a position, a decision, that all can accept. That all can at minimum "live with". All do not have to embrace it, love it to the same degree, but all must be at least "OK with it". It is not the same as "settling" or "compromising". And it is not good enough that all are merely "OK with it".

 

Will there ever come a time when Sashi weighs the pros and cons of deadlocked staff and makes a decision in the absence of a consensus? Yes... but only if one side's argument is far stronger than the others is AND if there is no consensus alternative available. This will be rare and it will not involve Sashi alone in a closet with a DVD of a player's game tape.

 

How do I "know" the above? Because I did this job for about seven years... and I was damn good at it... at least that was the consensus of my "stakeholders", my internal customers and even my peers.

 

One last point... but it's an important one. Folks here can't get their head around a non-football guy in Sashi's role. I will tell you that the biggest obstacle to his job, the biggest threat to our FO's decision process is if its Facilitator comes into the process with an opinion. A strong "football guy" couldn't do what Sashi is charged with doing.

 

I've been there, too. Keeping a constant check that as Facilitator you do not steer or otherwise inject yourself, your opinion, your bias into the decision significantly adds to what is already an taxing job... a mentally, and occasionally even physically, exhausting job.

 

 

Sorry, Gip... I ended up explaining it again anyway... albeit in a slightly different way... hopefully a better way.

 

Although I doubt there will be consensus on that point...

[The Gipper]

I fully understand that the Browns entire scouting staff has input into the decisions that are made. But it is still Sashi with the final decision.

If 9 out of 10 scouts say we need to take X player, I suspect Sashi says, yes, lets take X.

But if 4 say lets take Y, and 3 say lets take Z and 2 say lets take Q, and one says lets take # then Sashi will likely be the one to say that we are taking the guy he chooses....his final word. (after he runs it past the owner....at least for the first round picks)

[gftChris]

I fully understand that the Browns entire scouting staff has input into the decisions that are made. But it is still Sashi with the final decision.

If 9 out of 10 scouts say we need to take X player, I suspect Sashi says, yes, lets take X.

But if 4 say lets take Y, and 3 say lets take Z and 2 say lets take Q, and one says lets take # then Sashi will likely be the one to say that we are taking the guy he chooses....his final word. (after he runs it past the owner....at least for the first round picks)

That's a stupid way of choosing things. For example you can probably remove the guys who only get 2 and 1 vote, and tell those three scouts to pick between the first two candidates. Maybe you've got 4 votes for Trubsiky, 3 for Watson, 2 for Falk and 1 for Mahones. Then you eliminate Falk and Mahones, and tell the scouts to pick between Trubisky and Watson. Maybe you then find it's 7-3 Trubisky.

 

On the other hand, you might find that of the Trubisky supporters, you have a couple that are like "Trubisky is great but Watson's really good too, can't go wrong either way" and others are like "Watson's the shit, Trubisky's just shit" and all ten scouts are happy that Watson is a top 20 QB but Trubisky splits opinions.

[gftChris]

The only problem can be what's known here as the 'pizza express issue'. Not sure if you guys have the same chain? I'm sure there's an equivalent. Basically you get a group of people going out to dinner and trying to decide where to go. People have their own ideas, but the vegetarian doesn't want to go the steak house, the other one doesn't do spicy food, there's always one who just doesn't like 'foreign food' so you end up at a standard chain pizza place, because everybody's *ok* with pizza.

[wargograw]

We don't eat pizza in America.

[TexasAg1969]

We don't eat pizza in America.

 

LOL!

[Tour2ma]

I fully understand that the Browns entire scouting staff has input into the decisions that are made. But it is still Sashi with the final decision.

If 9 out of 10 scouts say we need to take X player, I suspect Sashi says, yes, lets take X.

But if 4 say lets take Y, and 3 say lets take Z and 2 say lets take Q, and one says lets take # then Sashi will likely be the one to say that we are taking the guy he chooses....his final word. (after he runs it past the owner....at least for the first round picks)

 

No... Sashi is not the judge... not "The Decider"... and he is not polling 10 scouts. Stop trying to put him into the "weeds". This is consensus driven, organizational decision making, not the hierarchical dictate-driven system of Paul Brown or Bill Polian that you have stuck in your head.

• He has two heads of Scouting to produce two boards: one draft, one FA.
• He has an Analytics group to produce the same two boards.
• He facilitates the merging of the boards with Cap input to develop a Player Personnel Strategy.

In the first two activities, he won't be in the working sessions. On those he'll get progress reports. He will sit in the independent meetings to formulate each group's final board. He may or may not participate in these, but to the extent he does it will be to drive the process, not its product. He will take a ton of notes.

 

In the third activity, the merger process, he'll not only be in the meeting, he will drive it, run it looking for:

• unanimity, either pro or con, which he will test for "groupthink" error.
• general, but not strong, agreement that he needs to flesh out.
• strong disagreement to probe.

This is when his notes will come out. He'll use them to:

• surface dissenting views he heard in the pre-meetings to test what he now hears... especially if unanimity is now all he is hearing.
• develop general agreements in to solid positions all can live with, i.e., form consensus.
• facilitate strong disagreement discussion to develop the each side's understanding of the others position and see if there's hope for consensus and recognize when there is no hope.

Consensus may come in many forms. In the discussion one side might "win over" the other... as in "convince", not "beat". More likely would be adjusting a player's grouping on the final board... as in "if he falls to us here," or "if he accepts this lower offer."

 

But sometimes consensus will not be reached; a significant divide will persist. The default position for that case should be to pass on a player and in his stead go after a consensus choice.

 

I guarantee you it will not be Sashi mulling a split-decision case over and then taking it to Jimmah. Simply is not Sashi's role and he knows it. He also knows it's not Jimmah's role.

 

Jimmah? His can be any role he wants it to be, but hopefully he's learned his limitations. And the above process is our greatest hope that Jimmah remembers lessons of the past.

 

The above process means that when the full Player Personnel Strategy (including budget) is presented to Jimmah by Sashi and the departments heads, if/when Jimmah asks, "Why is Player X (who he just read Mel Kiper rave about on the flight to Berea) is so low on our Board?" The group can respond, "WE don't think he's worth the higher pick/offer because..."

[Tour2ma]

That's a stupid way of choosing things. For example you can probably remove the guys who only get 2 and 1 vote, and tell those three scouts to pick between the first two candidates. Maybe you've got 4 votes for Trubsiky, 3 for Watson, 2 for Falk and 1 for Mahones. Then you eliminate Falk and Mahones, and tell the scouts to pick between Trubisky and Watson. Maybe you then find it's 7-3 Trubisky.

 

On the other hand, you might find that of the Trubisky supporters, you have a couple that are like "Trubisky is great but Watson's really good too, can't go wrong either way" and others are like "Watson's the shit, Trubisky's just shit" and all ten scouts are happy that Watson is a top 20 QB but Trubisky splits opinions.

 

That's a technique, just like 10-4 voting, to try to cull a pile of ideas/alternatives down to the best few, but not one I see employed here.

 

Players simply get grades based on individuals' objective and subjective independent evaluations. Once done a ranking falls out, and then the ranking is discussed, as not all turn out as expected.

[flyingfooldoug]

Seems like Dee Haslam keeps getting left out of the equation. She gets the same vote as Jimbo. I'm just guessing but I bet their votes carry more weight than Stosh's vote.

[Tour2ma]

*** sigh ***

 

I quit...

[The Gipper]

 

No... Sashi is not the judge... not "The Decider"... and he is not polling 10 scouts. Stop trying to put him into the "weeds". This is consensus driven, organizational decision making, not the hierarchical dictate-driven system of Paul Brown or Bill Polian that you have stuck in your head.

• He has two heads of Scouting to produce two boards: one draft, one FA.
• He has an Analytics group to produce the same two boards.
• He facilitates the merging of the boards with Cap input to develop a Player Personnel Strategy.

In the first two activities, he won't be in the working sessions. On those he'll get progress reports. He will sit in the independent meetings to formulate each group's final board. He may or may not participate in these, but to the extent he does it will be to drive the process, not its product. He will take a ton of notes.

 

In the third activity, the merger process, he'll not only be in the meeting, he will drive it, run it looking for:

• unanimity, either pro or con, which he will test for "groupthink" error.
• general, but not strong, agreement that he needs to flesh out.
• strong disagreement to probe.

This is when his notes will come out. He'll use them to:

• surface dissenting views he heard in the pre-meetings to test what he now hears... especially if unanimity is now all he is hearing.
• develop general agreements in to solid positions all can live with, i.e., form consensus.
• facilitate strong disagreement discussion to develop the each side's understanding of the others position and see if there's hope for consensus and recognize when there is no hope.

Consensus may come in many forms. In the discussion one side might "win over" the other... as in "convince", not "beat". More likely would be adjusting a player's grouping on the final board... as in "if he falls to us here," or "if he accepts this lower offer."

 

But sometimes consensus will not be reached; a significant divide will persist. The default position for that case should be to pass on a player and in his stead go after a consensus choice.

 

I guarantee you it will not be Sashi mulling a split-decision case over and then taking it to Jimmah. Simply is not Sashi's role and he knows it. He also knows it's not Jimmah's role.

 

Jimmah? His can be any role he wants it to be, but hopefully he's learned his limitations. And the above process is our greatest hope that Jimmah remembers lessons of the past.

 

The above process means that when the full Player Personnel Strategy (including budget) is presented to Jimmah by Sashi and the departments heads, if/when Jimmah asks, "Why is Player X (who he just read Mel Kiper rave about on the flight to Berea) is so low on our Board?" The group can respond, "WE don't think he's worth the higher pick/offer because..."

OK, well, this description perhaps tells why they are considered a mamby pamby bunch. No one is in charge, they all sing Kumbaya (or is that Brad Kaaya). Its a circle jerk the way you call it. Does it work? Not great results so far.

Maybe we do need a Sonny Weaver.

[miktoxic]

*** sigh ***

 

I quit...

 

HA!!!!

 

well i learned a thing or two in your explanation(s):

 

1. lot more involved than meets the eyes/ears as a fan.

 

2. you must be pretty good at black jack.

[Tour2ma]

OK, well, this description perhaps tells why they are considered a mamby pamby bunch. No one is in charge, they all sing Kumbaya (or is that Brad Kaaya). Its a circle jerk the way you call it. Does it work? Not great results so far.

Maybe we do need a Sonny Weaver.

 

A "strong man" at the top does not make an organization strong... it makes it compliant, dependent. How'd Holmgren work out? Farmer? Lombo? How many "strong", football-knowlegable GMs are there in the league right now? How many successful ones? Great ones?

 

We've fished in that lake for decades now with little to show for it. We've (Jimmah has) simply decided to fish in a different lake... and the pond next to it... simultaneously.

 

Sashi is in charge... of the process... of the organization. In no way is it a "circle jerk". It's a new approach. Its success is not guaranteed, but its failure is far from obvious.

 

You base your assessment on a single year... an as of yet incomplete single year. A year where I'm still not sure we have a certifiable bust in the 14-player haul. One where in my old, "Bust" thread you managed to mention one player, Shon Coleman, who was still rehabbing at the time. And in the process ignore a trade that gives us our only shot a landing one of the prize UFAs of 2017.

 

2. you must be pretty good at black jack.

 

The game where you tag folks with a leather pouch filled with lead shot? I'd be better at that than the card game. Last time I sat at a table I had a couple Korean women cussing me out... in two languages.

 

Thanks for the positive feedback...