Did i not say not just a few days ago that ambivalence to the seperation of church and state....

[Clevfan4life]

Would come back to bite some ass? Behold......i give you "after school satan". http://www.cbsnews.com/news/after-school-satan-satanic-temple-portland-approved/?ftag=MSF0951a18

 

Ok so this article was from last sept but apparently there was a supreme court ruling years ago that paved the way for religious studies on public school property. So we have after school satan and i couldnt be tickled more pink if someone threw a bucket of pink paint on me.

 

After school satan just has a ring to it, its so catchy.

[MLD Woody]

The real hero of the Bible

[Clevfan4life]

The real hero of the Bible

Indeed

[OldBrownsFan]

I don't think it took much of a prophet to see this coming Cleve so I wouldn't pat yourself on the back too hard. Sure there are unintended consequences sometimes. Let the one or two students go to their satan club while the bulk go to the Christian based clubs. Don't get me wrong I hate the idea of the few parents who would send their children to a satan club after school but if to keep that from happening is to do away with the Christian clubs then so be it. Matter of fact my guess the only reason for a satan club is trying to do away with after school Christian clubs.

[Clevfan4life]

I don't think it took much of a prophet to see this coming Cleve so I wouldn't pat yourself on the back too hard

 

oh I will pat myself silly thank you very much. and then after a nap i might just pat myself all over again you don't know.

[Osiris]

So once you get past the name this club actually has nothing to do with Satan. Why call it that? Seems like it would just alienate people. Better to call it Rationalist Club.

[MLD Woody]

I don't think it took much of a prophet to see this coming Cleve so I wouldn't pat yourself on the back too hard. Sure there are unintended consequences sometimes. Let the one or two students go to their satan club while the bulk go to the Christian based clubs. Don't get me wrong I hate the idea of the few parents who would send their children to a satan club after school but if to keep that from happening is to do away with the Christian clubs then so be it. Matter of fact my guess the only reason for a satan club is trying to do away with after school Christian clubs.

Don't kid yourself. The bulk aren't going to either club.

[VaporTrail]

So once you get past the name this club actually has nothing to do with Satan. Why call it that? Seems like it would just alienate people. Better to call it Rationalist Club.

 

Satan was the rationalist in the Bible.

[Clevfan4life]

 

Satan was the rationalist in the Bible.

Well if satan is lucifer, which there has always been a philosophical/theological debate over....then he was the one who told god (in the old old versions of the OT) that the human experiment was doomed to failure. I forget the exact words attributed to that conversation but i remember upon reading it saying to myself "that ngr nailed it god damn".

 

So whether or not these stories of gods are fantasy, it shows at least that a long long time ago....there were humans that likely had a better grasp of the human condition than we have now.

[Clevfan4life]

Hail satan peace and blessings be upon him

[Osiris]

Satan was the rationalist in the Bible.

That's funny. It's the opposite in the Quran.

[OldBrownsFan]

That's funny. It's the opposite in the Quran.

 

And the bible as well. The bible clearly lays out who the enemy is and it is not people but the satanic influences behind the things people do:

 

Ephesians 6:12 We do not wrestle against flesh and blood but against principalities ,powers, the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in heavenly places..

 

*for those who think there is only one heaven in the bible it clearly lists there are three heavens...

[Westside Steve]

So once you get past the name this club actually has nothing to do with Satan. Why call it that? Seems like it would just alienate people. Better to call it Rationalist Club.

Because being an asshole is the prime directive.

It has nothing to do with rationality.

 

WSS

[Osiris]

Because being an asshole is the prime directive.

It has nothing to do with rationality.

WSS

It would seem so in this case. If it weren't for the name it sounds like a club I would send my kids to.

[Osiris]

And the bible as well. The bible clearly lays out who the enemy is and it is not people but the satanic influences behind the things people do:

 

Ephesians 6:12 We do not wrestle against flesh and blood but against principalities ,powers, the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in heavenly places..

 

*for those who think there is only one heaven in the bible it clearly lists there are three heavens...

So serious question for you. I have heard that Christianity takes the position that human beings are born with sin. This lends itself to the idea that human beings are in general bad until they learn to be good through religion. Is this true, and if so, is this idea in the OT or the NT?

[OldBrownsFan]

So serious question for you. I have heard that Christianity takes the position that human beings are born with sin. This lends itself to the idea that human beings are in general bad until they learn to be good through religion. Is this true, and if so, is this idea in the OT or the NT?

 

 

We believe all people are born with a sin nature.

 

If we are born in sin, how is it fair for God to judge us for our sin?

A common accusation against Christianity is that it unfairly judges people. In particular, some people say that God sets us up for failure and then punishes us for the failure that He caused. If that were true, it would indeed be an unfair situation. Is that the way Christianity works? Does God unfairly judge us for something we have no control over? The answers are found in the Bible.

 

To begin, we must find out what the Bible says about our being born in sin. David, the man after God’s own heart, wrote in Psalm 51:5, “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.” The apostle Paul wrote that we all gratify “the cravings of our sinful nature” (Ephesians 2:3). That means there is something naturally inside us that pushes us toward sin.

 

So, the Bible certainly does teach that we are born in sin. Did God just arbitrarily decide people were going to be born sinful? The answer is found in connection with the first man, Adam. When Adam was created (without sin) by God and placed in the garden of Eden, he was also given a simple law (Genesis 2:16–17). Adam disobeyed God’s law, and God pronounced him guilty and sentenced him to death. It was Adam’s choice to disobey that made him guilty before God. He was the father of the human race, and his traits were passed on to his children. Romans 5:12 says that sin entered the world through Adam, and death came through sin, because all sinned. As descendants of Adam, we received the sin nature passed down from our fathers. That makes us born in sin, with a natural inclination to do wrong.

 

Some might argue that we cannot choose our family, so God cannot hold us accountable for the sin nature. While we might not have any choice about how we’re born, the Bible is clear that we do have a choice about our sins. Earlier, we looked at Ephesians 2:3, which says that we gratify the cravings of our sinful nature. That is a choice. Romans 5:12 says that “all sinned.” We are sinners by deed as well as by nature. Our own sin condemns us, not just Adam’s. We are born in sin, but we continue to sin by our own personal choice. When we choose sin, we become guilty before God, and His judgment is fair.

 

God is not only fair, but merciful. The Bible’s teaching about personal sin doesn’t end with a declaration of man’s guilt. Romans 5, which tells us that sin and death entered the world through one man, also tells us of the greatest blessing, which also came through one man. God’s gift of grace came through Jesus Christ (Romans 5:15) and overflowed to many. Verse 19 says, “For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.” God is just in applying Adam’s sin to the entire human race, and He is just in applying Jesus Christ’s death to all who will receive Him by faith. Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world, so that the world might have life through faith in His sacrifice. That’s not “fair”—that’s grace!

 

https://www.gotquestions.org/born-in-sin.html

[Osiris]

 

 

We believe all people are born with a sin nature.

 

If we are born in sin, how is it fair for God to judge us for our sin?

A common accusation against Christianity is that it unfairly judges people. In particular, some people say that God sets us up for failure and then punishes us for the failure that He caused. If that were true, it would indeed be an unfair situation. Is that the way Christianity works? Does God unfairly judge us for something we have no control over? The answers are found in the Bible.

 

To begin, we must find out what the Bible says about our being born in sin. David, the man after God’s own heart, wrote in Psalm 51:5, “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.” The apostle Paul wrote that we all gratify “the cravings of our sinful nature” (Ephesians 2:3). That means there is something naturally inside us that pushes us toward sin.

 

So, the Bible certainly does teach that we are born in sin. Did God just arbitrarily decide people were going to be born sinful? The answer is found in connection with the first man, Adam. When Adam was created (without sin) by God and placed in the garden of Eden, he was also given a simple law (Genesis 2:16–17). Adam disobeyed God’s law, and God pronounced him guilty and sentenced him to death. It was Adam’s choice to disobey that made him guilty before God. He was the father of the human race, and his traits were passed on to his children. Romans 5:12 says that sin entered the world through Adam, and death came through sin, because all sinned. As descendants of Adam, we received the sin nature passed down from our fathers. That makes us born in sin, with a natural inclination to do wrong.

 

Some might argue that we cannot choose our family, so God cannot hold us accountable for the sin nature. While we might not have any choice about how we’re born, the Bible is clear that we do have a choice about our sins. Earlier, we looked at Ephesians 2:3, which says that we gratify the cravings of our sinful nature. That is a choice. Romans 5:12 says that “all sinned.” We are sinners by deed as well as by nature. Our own sin condemns us, not just Adam’s. We are born in sin, but we continue to sin by our own personal choice. When we choose sin, we become guilty before God, and His judgment is fair.

 

God is not only fair, but merciful. The Bible’s teaching about personal sin doesn’t end with a declaration of man’s guilt. Romans 5, which tells us that sin and death entered the world through one man, also tells us of the greatest blessing, which also came through one man. God’s gift of grace came through Jesus Christ (Romans 5:15) and overflowed to many. Verse 19 says, “For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.” God is just in applying Adam’s sin to the entire human race, and He is just in applying Jesus Christ’s death to all who will receive Him by faith. Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world, so that the world might have life through faith in His sacrifice. That’s not “fair”—that’s grace!

 

https://www.gotquestions.org/born-in-sin.html

 

Ok, thank you for the information. Are these sources from the Old Testament or New Testament?

[OldBrownsFan]

 

Ok, thank you for the information. Are these sources from the Old Testament or New Testament?

 

The sinful nature in all people is brought out in both the Old and New Covenants. The Old Covenant speaks to the truth that all are born in sin which the New Covenant also does but then adds what the sacrifice of Jesus means in giving us a new nature:

 

"The sin nature is that principle in man that makes him rebellious against God. When we speak of the sin nature, we refer to the fact that we have a natural inclination to sin; given the choice to do God’s will or our own, we will naturally choose to do our own thing.

 

Proof of the sin nature abounds. No one has to teach a child to lie or be selfish; rather, we go to great lengths to teach children to tell the truth and put others first. Sinful behavior comes naturally. The evening news is filled with tragic examples of mankind acting badly. Wherever people are, there is trouble. Charles Spurgeon said, “As the salt flavors every drop in the Atlantic, so does sin affect every atom of our nature. It is so sadly there, so abundantly there, that if you cannot detect it, you are deceived.”

 

The Bible explains the reason for the trouble. Humanity is sinful, not just in theory or in practice but by nature. Sin is part of the very fiber of our being; the stain runs deep—it’s in the warp and woof of our souls. The Bible speaks of “sinful flesh” in Romans 8:3. It’s our “earthly nature” that produces the list of sins in Colossians 3:5. And Romans 6:6 speaks of “the body ruled by sin.” The flesh-and-blood existence we lead on this earth is shaped by our sinful, corrupt nature.

 

The sin nature is universal in humanity. All of us have a sinful nature, and it affects every part of us. This is the doctrine of total depravity, and it is biblical. All of us have gone astray (Isaiah 53:6). Paul admits that “the trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin” (Romans 7:14, NLT). Paul was in his “sinful nature a slave to the law of sin” (Romans 7:25). Solomon concurs: “Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, / no one who does what is right and never sins” (Ecclesiastes 7:20). The apostle John perhaps puts it most bluntly: “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:7).

 

Even children have a sin nature. David rues the fact that he was born with the principle of sin already at work within him: “Surely I was sinful at birth, / sinful from the time my mother conceived me” (Psalm 51:5). Elsewhere, David states, “Even from birth the wicked go astray; / from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies” (Psalm 58:3).

 

Where did the sin nature come from? Scripture says that God created humans good and without a sinful nature: “God created man in His own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them” (Genesis 1:27). However, Genesis 3 records the disobedience of Adam and Eve. By that one action, sin entered into their nature. They were immediately smitten with a sense of shame and unfitness, and they hid from God’s presence (Genesis 3:8). When they had children, Adam’s image and likeness was passed along to his offspring (Genesis 5:3). The sin nature manifested itself early in the genealogy: the very first child born to Adam and Eve, Cain, became the very first murderer (Genesis 4:8).

 

From generation to generation, the sin nature was passed down to all of humanity: “Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned” (Romans 5:12). This verse also presents the unsettling truth that the sin nature leads inexorably to death (see also Romans 6:23a and Ephesians 2:1).

 

Other consequences of the sin nature are hostility toward God and ignorance of His truth. Paul says, “The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God” (Romans 8:7–8). Also, “the person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit” (1 Corinthians 2:14).

 

There is only one Person in the history of the world who did not have a sin nature: Jesus Christ. His virgin birth allowed Him to enter our world while bypassing the curse passed down from Adam. Jesus then lived a sinless life of absolute perfection. He was “the Holy and Righteous One” (Acts 3:14) who “had no sin” (2 Corinthians 5:21). This allowed Jesus to be sacrificed on the cross as our perfect substitute, “a lamb without blemish or defect” (1 Peter 1:19). John Calvin puts it in perspective: “For certainly, Christ is much more powerful to save than Adam was to ruin.”

 

It is through Christ that we are born again. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” (John 3:6, ESV). When we are born of Adam, we inherit his sin nature; but when we are born again in Christ, we inherit a new nature: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!” (2 Corinthians 5:17).

 

We don’t lose our sin nature once we receive Christ. The Bible says that sin remains in us and that a struggle with that old nature will continue as long as we are in this world. Paul bemoaned his own personal struggle in Romans 7:15–20. But we have help in the battle—divine help. The Spirit of God takes up residence in each believer and supplies the power we need to overcome the pull of the sin nature within us. “No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God” (1 John 3:9). God’s ultimate plan for us is total sanctification when we see Christ (1 Thessalonians 3:13; 1 John 3:2).

Through His finished work on the cross, Jesus satisfied God’s wrath against sin and provided believers with victory over their sin nature: “‘He himself bore our sins’ in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness” (1 Peter 2:24). In His resurrection, Jesus offers life to everyone bound by corrupt flesh. Those who are born again now have this command: “Count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus” (Romans 6:11).

 

https://www.gotquestions.org/sin-nature.html

[Osiris]

 

The sinful nature in all people is brought out in both the Old and New Covenants. The Old Covenant speaks to the truth that all are born in sin which the New Covenant also does but then adds what the sacrifice of Jesus means in giving us a new nature:

 

"The sin nature is that principle in man that makes him rebellious against God. When we speak of the sin nature, we refer to the fact that we have a natural inclination to sin; given the choice to do God’s will or our own, we will naturally choose to do our own thing.

 

Proof of the sin nature abounds. No one has to teach a child to lie or be selfish; rather, we go to great lengths to teach children to tell the truth and put others first. Sinful behavior comes naturally. The evening news is filled with tragic examples of mankind acting badly. Wherever people are, there is trouble. Charles Spurgeon said, “As the salt flavors every drop in the Atlantic, so does sin affect every atom of our nature. It is so sadly there, so abundantly there, that if you cannot detect it, you are deceived.”

 

The Bible explains the reason for the trouble. Humanity is sinful, not just in theory or in practice but by nature. Sin is part of the very fiber of our being; the stain runs deep—it’s in the warp and woof of our souls. The Bible speaks of “sinful flesh” in Romans 8:3. It’s our “earthly nature” that produces the list of sins in Colossians 3:5. And Romans 6:6 speaks of “the body ruled by sin.” The flesh-and-blood existence we lead on this earth is shaped by our sinful, corrupt nature.

 

The sin nature is universal in humanity. All of us have a sinful nature, and it affects every part of us. This is the doctrine of total depravity, and it is biblical. All of us have gone astray (Isaiah 53:6). Paul admits that “the trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin” (Romans 7:14, NLT). Paul was in his “sinful nature a slave to the law of sin” (Romans 7:25). Solomon concurs: “Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, / no one who does what is right and never sins” (Ecclesiastes 7:20). The apostle John perhaps puts it most bluntly: “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:7).

 

Even children have a sin nature. David rues the fact that he was born with the principle of sin already at work within him: “Surely I was sinful at birth, / sinful from the time my mother conceived me” (Psalm 51:5). Elsewhere, David states, “Even from birth the wicked go astray; / from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies” (Psalm 58:3).

 

Where did the sin nature come from? Scripture says that God created humans good and without a sinful nature: “God created man in His own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them” (Genesis 1:27). However, Genesis 3 records the disobedience of Adam and Eve. By that one action, sin entered into their nature. They were immediately smitten with a sense of shame and unfitness, and they hid from God’s presence (Genesis 3:8). When they had children, Adam’s image and likeness was passed along to his offspring (Genesis 5:3). The sin nature manifested itself early in the genealogy: the very first child born to Adam and Eve, Cain, became the very first murderer (Genesis 4:8).

 

From generation to generation, the sin nature was passed down to all of humanity: “Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned” (Romans 5:12). This verse also presents the unsettling truth that the sin nature leads inexorably to death (see also Romans 6:23a and Ephesians 2:1).

 

Other consequences of the sin nature are hostility toward God and ignorance of His truth. Paul says, “The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God” (Romans 8:7–8). Also, “the person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit” (1 Corinthians 2:14).

 

There is only one Person in the history of the world who did not have a sin nature: Jesus Christ. His virgin birth allowed Him to enter our world while bypassing the curse passed down from Adam. Jesus then lived a sinless life of absolute perfection. He was “the Holy and Righteous One” (Acts 3:14) who “had no sin” (2 Corinthians 5:21). This allowed Jesus to be sacrificed on the cross as our perfect substitute, “a lamb without blemish or defect” (1 Peter 1:19). John Calvin puts it in perspective: “For certainly, Christ is much more powerful to save than Adam was to ruin.”

 

It is through Christ that we are born again. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” (John 3:6, ESV). When we are born of Adam, we inherit his sin nature; but when we are born again in Christ, we inherit a new nature: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!” (2 Corinthians 5:17).

 

We don’t lose our sin nature once we receive Christ. The Bible says that sin remains in us and that a struggle with that old nature will continue as long as we are in this world. Paul bemoaned his own personal struggle in Romans 7:15–20. But we have help in the battle—divine help. The Spirit of God takes up residence in each believer and supplies the power we need to overcome the pull of the sin nature within us. “No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God” (1 John 3:9). God’s ultimate plan for us is total sanctification when we see Christ (1 Thessalonians 3:13; 1 John 3:2).

Through His finished work on the cross, Jesus satisfied God’s wrath against sin and provided believers with victory over their sin nature: “‘He himself bore our sins’ in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness” (1 Peter 2:24). In His resurrection, Jesus offers life to everyone bound by corrupt flesh. Those who are born again now have this command: “Count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus” (Romans 6:11).

 

https://www.gotquestions.org/sin-nature.html

 

Okay, thank you for the Christian perspective. The Muslim perspective is different, but I wasn't asking for the sake of theological debate.

[OldBrownsFan]

 

Okay, thank you for the Christian perspective. The Muslim perspective is different, but I wasn't asking for the sake of theological debate.

 

They were good questions. I would think even without my Christian faith I would believe people are inherently born with a sinful nature though. The evidences are there from childhood on up.

[Osiris]

 

They were good questions. I would think even without my Christian faith I would believe people are inherently born with a sinful nature though. The evidences are there from childhood on up.

 

Also, is this perspective held by all branches of Christianity, or is it specific to Catholics or Protestants or other groups?

[OldBrownsFan]

 

Also, is this perspective held by all branches of Christianity, or is it specific to Catholics or Protestants or other groups?

 

All the branches I am aware of believe in original sin. One big difference is that Protestants believe Jesus is the only one born without sin while Catholics believe Mary was also born without sin.