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Q & A: 'Joe the Plumber'


Guest mz.

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Guest mz.

Just a great read.

 

Conservatism is about the basic rights of individuals. God created us. As far as the government goes, the Founding Fathers based the Constitution off of Christian values. It goes hand-in-hand. As far as the Republican Party? I felt connected to it because individual freedom should not be legislated by the federal government.

 

As good as that start is, it gets better.

 

You know, God is pretty explicit in what we're supposed to do—what man and woman are for. Now, at the same time, we're supposed to love everybody and accept people, and preach against the sins. I've had some friends that are actually homosexual. And, I mean, they know where I stand, and they know that I wouldn't have them anywhere near my children.

 

Seem pretty conflicted, eh JtP? Seems like most of the New Right feels the same way. We know T does, as he's stated this many, many times albeit less "eloquently" than JtP (if that's possible). God tells you to love everyone but hate fags??? Whatcha gonna do???

 

via cal's 2nd favorite news source, here.

 

See, cal, here's how you cut and paste if you want to say something. Try and add your own commentary to what you cut and pasted...

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Another misguided attempt at rocking the foundation of Christianity from the Left.

 

 

 

You can love the sinner, but you dont have to tolerate the sin itself.

 

 

Dont try and put words into my mouth that have not been spoken.

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Guest mz.
Dont try and put words into my mouth that have not been spoken.

 

You never claimed all gays were child molesters??? I must've read it five times on this very board.

 

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You never claimed all gays were child molesters??? I must've read it five times on this very board.

 

 

I believe I have stated twice on here that a couple of my best friends were molested by a couple of queers when they were younger and one never recovered from it and committed suicide.

 

Is this you're ideal situation for American values? Well if so, that is sick.

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I believe I have stated twice on here that a couple of my best friends were molested by a couple of queers when they were younger and one never recovered from it and committed suicide.

 

Is this you're ideal situation for American values? Well if so, that is sick.

 

THey must have been altar boys?

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The funny thing is that most of the Founders of the U.S. were not Christian.

 

 

More ignorant verbal-vomit from Joe the non-Plumber.

Is that how you read that? Amazing.

 

When people make the claim that the Constitution/Declaration is based on [Judeo-]Christian values, they mean the philosphy, and not the theology. That's an important distinction to make. A distinction I wouldn't expect you to make based on the above interpretation of JtP's statement: "the Founding Fathers based the Constitution off of Christian values," and not as "the Founding Fathers were Christian."

 

I'd offer a link, but it's probably a waste of html.

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Actually the Constitution is based on the Principals of Natural Law.

 

Implying the Constitution was written based on Christian values is incorrect and implies that the founders held those same values which is also incorrect.

 

Anyone with half a brain should realize that the guarantee of the freedom of religion flies in the face of Christian values.

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Guest mz.
I believe I have stated twice on here that a couple of my best friends were molested by a couple of queers when they were younger and one never recovered from it and committed suicide.

 

Is this you're ideal situation for American values? Well if so, that is sick.

 

 

And as I've stated before, I feel badly for those involved, but that's a "rape/molestation" thing, not a "gay" thing.

 

And my idea of "American Values" is all men are created equal. I guess you don't agree with that sentiment, Mr. Constitution...........

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And as I've stated before, I feel badly for those involved, but that's a "rape/molestation" thing, not a "gay" thing.

 

And my idea of "American Values" is all men are created equal. I guess you don't agree with that sentiment, Mr. Constitution...........except mz the pussy

 

 

Whats your point then?

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Actually the Constitution is based on the Principals of Natural Law.

 

Implying the Constitution was written based on Christian values is incorrect and implies that the founders held those same values which is also incorrect.

Ignore for the moment that they prayed before each session of Congress thanking God for all he has given them. Ignore for another moment the following quote from ole TJ himself regarding Jesus' teachings: "A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen."

The philosophy behind the Constitution & Declaration is that certain rights are given to man by a supreme being (You can't even make it through the opening sentence of the Declaration without running into that). That is different from Christian theology. It is imperative you make the distinction before we continue the discussion. To think that that particular influence was purposely removed or even left out of either document is foolish.

 

Anyone with half a brain should realize that the guarantee of the freedom of religion flies in the face of Christian values.

Flies in the face of Christian values? Does it? Since it only takes half-a-brain, please elaborate. <_<

edit/ps: I'd start with defining Christian Values just so we're clear you know what you're talking about.

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Christians have always been intolerant of other religions. The Old Testament tell Jews and CHristians to kill anyone of another religion. Christians use scripture to justify the Crusades. It's always been about Christianity being the one and only acceptable religion. A document based on Christianity would not be tolerant of other religions, especially ANY other religion.

 

The Constitution was based on the principals of Natural Law, no matter how you try to spin it.

 

The Unites States was NOT founded as a Christian nation.

 

Article 11 of the Treaty with Tripoli, unaminously approved by Congress and signed by the president:

 

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

 

Also, for every twisted quote of Thomas Jefferson you conjure up, there are quotes like these:

 

"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose."

- Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814

 

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."

- Thomas Jefferson, "Notes on Virginia"

 

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."

- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787

 

"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests."

- Thomas Jefferson, to John Adams, 1803

 

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."

- Thomas Jefferson, to Baron von Humboldt, 1813

 

"On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind."

- to Carey, 1816

 

Do you want me to go on? I have similar quotes from George Washington, Ben Franklin, Thomas Paine, and Ethan Allen.

 

 

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And, if you were truly such a study of Christian Theology, you would know that most of the principals of Christianity are based on Natural Law. The Constitution is based on Natural Law, but not Christianity.

 

Sophocles was the first philosopher to theorize the concept of Natural Law (Antigone). He lived 500 years before Jesus was born.

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Guest mz.
Whats your point then?

 

My point is you're a huge hypocrite, and a bigot. Following the Constitution to the letter and then discriminating based on anything different from you (foreign, gay, whatever) must cause you cognitive dissonance as a CHRISTIAN and an AMERICAN. But you're unwilling to look deeper into yourself, your religion, and your Constitution to make any really deep connections or think on any level besides those incredibly base instinctual things (eating, sleeping, shitting, xxxxing...oh and "earning money").

 

I pity you. I do.

 

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Christians have always been intolerant of other religions. The Old Testament tell Jews and CHristians to kill anyone of another religion. Christians use scripture to justify the Crusades. It's always been about Christianity being the one and only acceptable religion. A document based on Christianity would not be tolerant of other religions, especially ANY other religion.

 

The Constitution was based on the principals of Natural Law, no matter how you try to spin it.

And what verse would that be? <_< If you could just lock down a chronological timeline, we'd be getting a little further on this than we are. What I've italicized borders on illiterate.

At least now you've moved from confusing Christian theology and philosophy with philosophy and religion. A lateral move at best.

And you've provided us with the following quotes demonstrating said confusion.

 

 

The Unites States was NOT founded as a Christian nation.

 

Article 11 of the Treaty with Tripoli, unaminously approved by Congress and signed by the president:

 

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

More evidence of confusion. Yes it's not founded on the Christian religion, but it is founded on the ethics that are the foundation for Jesus' teachings. Which was and has been my point.

 

Also, for every twisted quote of Thomas Jefferson you conjure up, there are quotes like these:

 

"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose."

- Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814

 

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."

- Thomas Jefferson, "Notes on Virginia"

 

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."

- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787

 

"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests."

- Thomas Jefferson, to John Adams, 1803

 

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."

- Thomas Jefferson, to Baron von Humboldt, 1813

 

"On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind."

- to Carey, 1816

 

Do you want me to go on? I have similar quotes from George Washington, Ben Franklin, Thomas Paine, and Ethan Allen.

Every twisted TJ quote? I provided the link to the entire letter that he wrote to yield the context of the quote. It proves my point that he held the ethics behind Jesus teachings in very high regard but did not believe the dogma of the religion of Christianity. There's no denying that those ethics found their way into our Founding Documents (The Declaration even uses the word "Creator" - capitalized to boot - but I'd hate for you to actually go back and read any of it).

I mean, your last quote even spells it out: "The dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles..." The two are separate, not one.

Your argument is as follows:

Because a bunch of Catholic priests have banged altar boys, then clearly that's what the entire mass service and Catholic religion is. Priests lining up altar boys in the front of the congregation & banging them. Who are you calling intolerant again?

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And, if you were truly such a study of Christian Theology, you would know that most of the principals of Christianity are based on Natural Law. The Constitution is based on Natural Law, but not Christianity.

 

Sophocles was the first philosopher to theorize the concept of Natural Law (Antigone). He lived 500 years before Jesus was born.

500 years before Jesus? Like in Jurrasic Park? And what of the Torah & law of Moses - some 1300 years before Jesus? I mean, are you kidding me with this?

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My point is you're a huge hypocrite, and a bigot. Following the Constitution to the letter and then discriminating based on anything different from you (foreign, gay, whatever) must cause you cognitive dissonance as a CHRISTIAN and an AMERICAN. But you're unwilling to look deeper into yourself, your religion, and your Constitution to make any really deep connections or think on any level besides those incredibly base instinctual things (eating, sleeping, shitting, xxxxing...oh and "earning money").

 

I pity you. I do.

 

 

This is the most comical thing I have read all day. What a Joke laughing boy.

 

It is great to have Freedom, Isn't it mz the pussy? You can sit there and try and analyze someone you have never met before. You can say anything you want without reprocutions. Keep waving your flags and burning your bras, nobody is listening to you.

 

Your biggest problem with me is that I have conservative view points, Love my God in which you dont believe in and Love my country and family. and all you want to do is have an orgy of liberalism and kiss Obama's rear end.

 

You should try respecting other peoples opinions. You have to give it to earn it. Maybe you should try and stop all the hateful talk towards others in here who dont march to your drum beat.

 

So if I am a bigot does that make you a Visigoth?

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Guest mz.

Freedom is great, T. I hope you experience it someday. Unfortunately, now, you're merely a slave to your fears.

 

This is the most comical thing I have read all day.

 

I understand it's a difficult thing to grasp, but if you're ever to be truly comfortable with yourself, your bigotry is something you need to look deeper into. The whys and the how comes. Perhaps you'll then learn something about yourself.

 

You should try respecting other peoples opinions. You have to give it to earn it. Maybe you should try and stop all the hateful talk towards others in here who dont march to your drum beat.

 

The hateful talk that comes from me is a mere retort to bigotry, hate and complete ignorance and misinformation. Take it however you care to.

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and all you want to do is have an orgy of liberalism and kiss Obama's rear end.

You should try respecting other peoples opinions. You have to give it to earn it. Maybe you should try and stop all the hateful talk towards others in here who dont march to your drum beat.

 

So if I am a bigot does that make you a Visigoth?

 

mz the pussy & I disagree on quite a bit of ideology over here (clearly not as much as you do) but I've never, ever gotten that from anything he's written on this forum. It'd be a lot easier to argue with him if he did say those things, but he doesn't.

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The Old Testament tell Jews and CHristians to kill anyone of another religion.
And what verse would that be?

 

 

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Deuteronomy 13:13-19

 

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him.Deuteronomy 13:7-12

 

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. Deuteronomy 17:12

 

 

Just sayin'.... Deuteronomy is angry!

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mz the pussy & I disagree on quite a bit of ideology over here (clearly not as much as you do) but I've never, ever gotten that from anything he's written on this forum. It'd be a lot easier to argue with him if he did say those things, but he doesn't.

 

 

I dont have any problems with what you have to say over politics and issues. I enjoy reading what your opinion is, and about 80% of the time I agree. That is what is great about this board, we can all get together and share ideals.

 

But you would have to agree that this whole thread is nothing more than an attack. If you throw enough mud balls at a barn it eventually they will leave a stain. For somone who is supposed to be highly educated they sure dont behave like it.

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And what verse would that be?

 

 

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Deuteronomy 13:13-19

 

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him.Deuteronomy 13:7-12

 

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. Deuteronomy 17:12

 

 

Just sayin'.... Deuteronomy is angry!

Indeed it is. In a time of Hammurabi and constructing laws to set up your nation after wandering in a desert for 40 years, not completely unfounded. What's frightening is that Deut. is a kinder revision of laws set out in Exodus with particular revisions to treatment of slaves (understandable now that the people of Israel know what it means to be one).

 

No Christians to be found, however. Which is half-joke / half serious. Christians rarely seek guidance in the 1st 5 books of the Bible. A lot of it is just used as historical context (go read Leviticus for some really weird un-relatable crap laws & practices). Basically it's understood that man has entered into a new covenant with God through Jesus which would supersede this covenant (loving your God above all being the most important of the commandments and the rest just take care of themselves if you can handle that).

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Guest mz.

T, Mr. "get together and share ideals" is really quite delusional. Unbelievably so. He claims to enjoy hearing others "ideals." Now that's a larf.

 

this whole thread is nothing more than an attack.

 

Man, beyond being delusional, are you a whiny f-ing baby as well.

 

This thread's an attack? An attack on what, exactly?

 

And what's this, this, this, this and this, then?

 

Seriously, for a couple of 60 year olds, you and cal act like toddlers.

 

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But you would have to agree that this whole thread is nothing more than an attack.

 

It's certainly your prerogative to feel this way as it is mine to feel that the thread was more of a reminder that Joe ought to work on getting his plumbing license rather than flex his political muscles.

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Thank you, Leg. Some people get it and some don't, and never will...

 

 

You dont get it. you're whole perspective on life is do what I believe dont ask questions, and play the party line.

you mz the pussy never have nanyhing to add to anything on these boards your a Hack job, that is all that you know how to do.

 

Your attacks on Joe the plummer are very old, who's next Sarah palin? Its nothing more than Hot Air.

 

You need to take a long look into a mirror and get in touch with yourself. Everything that you have written today

is nothing more than an attempt to stifle independent thinkers on this board weather it is politics or sports

\it always the same old mz the pussy BS!

 

You must really be scared of a new change that will be coming within 2 years if the republicans can get their stuff together,

but as we all know its not republican vs. democrat in all most of these politicians love to tax and spend.

But you dont give a crap as long as you can have Freedom of speech to spew out all of the crap you do on this board.

But when anyone who dares to have a different opinion you yourself play the Nag around here.

 

May God take pitty on you.

 

here is some good reading, it may take you a while because you wont be able to get past the first sentence.

http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4587

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Guest mz.

Why attack Joe the Plumber today, you ask? Because that fcuking interview I posted was published YESTERDAY, that's why. It was NEWSWORTHY.

 

Now you have started to resort to flat-out lies. Dude, T, you seriously write some of the least true shit I have ever read and I'm frankly tired of saying the same thing over and over and over again. I used to feel badly that you were too dim to have a real meaningful conversation, but your dickishness makes me rest easier regarding e-pissing in your face. Picking on the slow kid just doesn't feel badly anymore when it's you. Plus, your grammar is just flat-out embarrassing. It makes you look even dumber than you really are, which I'm guessing is damn-near impossible. Bad grammar from a smart guy typing quickly is one thing, but in your case, it's a symptom of the overall problem. That you're just unintelligent.

 

Now, the fact that you accuse me of "playing the party line" is so stupid and so just plain WRONG that I feel badly for you. I've explained how I feel numerous times here. If you cannot keep up, that's your fault, not ours. I mean, wasting all of this time with someone who isn't in my, or really most of the other folks' here, intellectual class has become boring and repetitive, as I've said.

 

Everything that you have written today

is nothing more than an attempt to stifle independent thinkers on this board weather it is politics or sports

\it always the same old mz the pussy BS!

 

In order to be an "independent thinker," T, you'd have to be able to generate an original thought. You're nothing more than a pathetic, scared, bigoted conspiracy theorist. But I'm the one who thinks the way he's told. Riiiiiiight.

 

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