Q & A: 'Joe the Plumber'

[Mr. T]

You think this is a cut and paste?

http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4591

I know you didnt read it because you cant defend against it other than acting like a spoiled child and start name calling.

Grow up and start thinking and acting like a man.
The childs play is over so stop throwing tantrums.

[Guest mz.]

We all skipped over your ramblings the first time, no need to waste your time linking them.

 

Now, name the "independent thinkers," please.

[Pumpkin Eater]

Indeed it is. In a time of Hammurabi and constructing laws to set up your nation after wandering in a desert for 40 years, not completely unfounded. What's frightening is that Deut. is a kinder revision of laws set out in Exodus with particular revisions to treatment of slaves (understandable now that the people of Israel know what it means to be one).

 

No Christians to be found, however. Which is half-joke / half serious. Christians rarely seek guidance in the 1st 5 books of the Bible. A lot of it is just used as historical context (go read Leviticus for some really weird un-relatable crap laws & practices). Basically it's understood that man has entered into a new covenant with God through Jesus which would supersede this covenant (loving your God above all being the most important of the commandments and the rest just take care of themselves if you can handle that).

 

 

RARELY? are you serious? Isn't that funny. The Old testament contains every verse regarding the evils of homosexuality and witchcraft. But Chrisitans RARELY cite those verses right

 

Only when it justifies their hatred.

 

Jesus is also quoted in the new testament adivising Christians to abide by the old testament.

[Pumpkin Eater]

And what verse would that be? blah... blah... blah...

 

Dueteronomy

13:12 If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,

13:13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; 13:14 Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;

13:15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

13:16 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.

13:17 And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;

13:18 When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.

 

17:2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant,

17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;

17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:

17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

 

 

Matthew

5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (5:17)

 

5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

 

 

More evidence of confusion. Yes it's not founded on the Christian religion, but it is founded on the ethics that are the foundation for Jesus' teachings. Which was and has been my point.

 

Joe the unlicensed plumber said the founders based the Constitution off of Christian values, which is false. It was based off of the principals of Natural Law.

 

 

 

 

Every twisted TJ quote? I provided the link to the entire letter that he wrote to yield the context of the quote. It proves my point that he held the ethics behind Jesus teachings in very high regard but did not believe the dogma of the religion of Christianity. There's no denying that those ethics found their way into our Founding Documents (The Declaration even uses the word "Creator" - capitalized to boot - but I'd hate for you to actually go back and read any of it).

I mean, your last quote even spells it out: "The dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles..." The two are separate, not one.

Your argument is as follows:

Because a bunch of Catholic priests have banged altar boys, then clearly that's what the entire mass service and Catholic religion is. Priests lining up altar boys in the front of the congregation & banging them. Who are you calling intolerant again?

 

You have no evidence that Thomas Jefferson was referring to the Christian god anywhere in the DOI. In fact he makes a reference to rights guaranteed by "the laws of nature" and "natures god." You're making quite a leap by insisting he was referring to the Christian god. Perhaps it's time you go back and read. Regardless, this isn't about the DOI, it's about the Constitution. Joe the unlicensed plumber didn't mention the DOI.

 

As I said, the Constitution was based off of Natural Law.

[Pumpkin Eater]

500 years before Jesus? Like in Jurrasic Park? And what of the Torah & law of Moses - some 1300 years before Jesus? I mean, are you kidding me with this?

 

 

Well, the Laws of Moses have nothig to do with the Concept of Natural Law. Are you serious? The Laws of Moses guarantee no personal rights, but they do tell you the proper way to sacrifice an animal, as well as to kill anyone you see working on sunday They say nothing of inalienable rights; rather, they tell people what to do.

 

The fact that the Constitution guarantees the freedom of religion while Christians and Jews are threatned by death for worshiping another good is proof enough that the Constitution wased based on Natural Law and not CHristian values.

 

 

[calfoxwc]

You should try respecting other peoples opinions. You have to give it to earn it. Maybe you should try and stop all the hateful talk towards others in here who dont march to your drum beat. Leg

***************************************************

 

This is very true, Leg. But that ship sailed a long time ago, and it wasn't conservatives that

 

pushed it away from the dock.

 

I think everybody needs to stop the hateful personal attacks for just having

 

opinions.

[Guest mz.]

Seriously, cal, without trying to stir up trouble, look in the mirror before you make such accusations.

[Legacy Fan]

You have no evidence that Thomas Jefferson was referring to the Christian god anywhere in the DOI. In fact he makes a reference to rights guaranteed by "the laws of nature" and "natures god." You're making quite a leap by insisting he was referring to the Christian god. Perhaps it's time you go back and read. Regardless, this isn't about the DOI, it's about the Constitution. Joe the unlicensed plumber didn't mention the DOI.

 

As I said, the Constitution was based off of Natural Law.

ok.

 

Here is the entire letter. Forgive me for assuming you're capable of clicking a link.

Monticello, January 9, 1816.

 

My Dear and Ancient Friend,--An acquaintance of fifty-two years, for I think ours dates from 1764, calls for an interchange of notice now and then, that we remain in existence, the monuments of another age, and examples of a friendship unaffected by the jarring elements by which we have been surrounded, of revolutions of government, of party and of opinion. I am reminded of this duty by the receipt, through our friend Dr. Patterson, of your synopsis of the four Evangelists. I had procured it as soon as I saw it advertised, and had become familiar with its use; but this copy is the more valued as it comes from your hand. This work bears the stamp of that accuracy which marks everything from you, and will be useful to those who, not taking things on trust, recur for themselves to the fountain of pure morals. I, too, have made a wee-little book from the same materials, which I call the Philosophy of Jesus; it is a paradigma of his doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book, and arranging them on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or subject. A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw. They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man, of which the great reformer of the vicious ethics and deism of the Jews, were he to return on earth, would not recognize one feature. If I had time I would add to my little book the Greek, Latin and French texts, in columns side by side. And I wish I could subjoin a translation of Gosindi's Syntagma of the doctrines of Epicurus, which, notwithstanding the calumnies of the Stoics and caricatures of Cicero, is the most rational system remaining of the philosophy of the ancients, as frugal of vicious indulgence, and fruitful of virtue as the hyperbolical extravagances of his rival sects.

 

I retain good health, am rather feeble to walk much, but ride with ease, passing two or three hours a day on horseback, and every three or four months taking in a carriage a journey of ninety miles to a distant possession, where I pass a good deal of my time. My eyes need the aid of glasses by night, and with small print in the day also; my hearing is not quite so sensible as it used to be; no tooth shaking yet, but shivering and shrinking in body from the cold we now experience, my thermometer having been as low as 12� this morning. My greatest oppression is a correspondence afflictingly laborious, the extent of which I have been long endeavoring to curtail. This keeps me at the drudgery of the writing-table all the prime hours of the day, leaving for the gratification of my appetite for reading, only what I can steal from the hours of sleep. Could I reduce this epistolary corv�e within the limits of my friends and affairs, and give the time redeemed from it to reading and reflection, to history, ethics, mathematics, my life would be as happy as the infirmities of age would admit, and I should look on its consummation with the composure of one " qui summum nec me tuit diem nec optat."

 

So much as to myself, and I have given you this string of egotisms in the hope of drawing a similar one from yourself. I have heard from others that you retain your health, a good degree of activity, and all the vivacity and cheerfulness of your mind, but I wish to learn it more minutely from yourself. How has time affected your health and spirits? What are your amusements, literary and social? Tell me everything about yourself, because all will be interesting to me who retains for you ever the same constant and affectionate friendship and respect.

(It's in bold and underlined.) Perhaps you put a little more effort into the "church sucks" mentality you developed when you were 13.

 

But you're probably right, I can't imagine that having any kind of influence on Jefferson when he was constructing the foundation of our nation.

[Legacy Fan]

RARELY? are you serious? Isn't that funny. The Old testament contains every verse regarding the evils of homosexuality and witchcraft. But Chrisitans RARELY cite those verses right

 

Only when it justifies their hatred.

 

Jesus is also quoted in the new testament adivising Christians to abide by the old testament.

 

And yes Hitler used verses X,Y,Z to justify his idiotic viewpoints. David Duke used verses A,B,C to justify his idiotic viewpoints. What's your point?

 

If anything, Jesus & the New testament are pretty tolerant towards homosexuals: Turn the other cheek...

[Guest Aloysius]

I think historians agree that the founding fathers were all over the place on religion. My favorite example is Benjamin Franklin: in his autobiography, he talks about how he's philosophically a deist, but he worries about how some of his friends who became deists ended up becoming unethical and screwing him over.

 

It's a tension that pervaded the revolutionary era: people were fighting for political liberty, yet there was a lot of angst about what people would do with their newfound liberty and whether corruption, both personal and political, would doom the new republic. To many, religion seemed to be the thing that would fill the void and make things right.

 

And I think the "it's Christian" vs. "it's natural law" argument kind of misses the point. The founders were working off of thinkers like Locke, who postulated that there was a natural right to property because God owns the land and gives property rights to anyone who productively labors the land without wasting crops or depriving others of the ability to sustain themselves. That's natural law, but it's also based on the idea that there is a divine Creator.

 

But does that make the Constitution "Christian"? I don't think so; it makes it the product of a certain set of political ideas at a certain point of Western history. Maybe Christianity had an influence on some of those political thinkers, but it wasn't the main focus of their work.

[calfoxwc]

I like this explanation:

 

http://www.enotes.com/history/group/discus...n-secular-38051

 

The first settlers came to America in search of religious freedom. The Pilgrims who traveled to America on the Mayflower were fleeing England and the inability to practice their religion which is Christianity. From these roots, the American colonies grew and were based on the principles of Christianity, not the required belief in the faith. The morals, ethics and organization of government was based on a belief in freedom. The Founding Fathers were guided by their Christian beliefs to form a government that would serve the people.

 

It was because of their Christian beliefs that the Founding Fathers were able to write the Declaration of Independence, seeking freedom for the colonies from the rule of the English King. It is necessary to understand that the right of man come from God or the Creator, and therefore, cannot be taken away, reduced or granted by any man, whether he be king or commoner. Without an acceptance of God as the center of the universe, the Founding Fathers could not embrace this belief.

 

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."

--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

 

It might be hard for modern individuals to understand how integrated religion was to behavior. References to God and to freedom are inexorable. Particularly, words spoken by Thomas Jefferson, who is often misinterpreted as being the Founding Father who wrote about the separation of church and state. He did this to preserve the individual's right to worship as he chose, not to protect the state, but to protect the freedom of the individual. The government shall make no religion. Jefferson and others were determined that there be no state religion, but the founding principles are based on Christian morality. For example consider Jefferson's words:

 

"The God who gave us life gave us liberty at the same time: the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them." (Jefferson)

 

George Washington's faith sustained him as the Commander of the Continental Army. He believed that Providence, God was on the side of the colonists who sought freedom from English tyranny. Washington's first inaugrual address gives thanks to God for the new job that he has been summoned to, President of the United States.

 

"Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiary improper to omit in this first official act my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the universe; who presides in the councils of nations; and whose providential aid can supply every human defect; that his benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the People of the United States" (Washington)

 

 

 

[Guest mz.]

I like this explanation

 

Of course you would like that explanation, as it "validates" your thinking.

 

Duh.

 

[Westside Steve]

Oh well.

At least Joe isn't speaker of the house or VP ........

 

WSS

[calfoxwc]

I'm biased toward my own opinions, but seriously,

 

does anybody willing to be objective find fault with this reasoning?

 

 

http://www.enotes.com/history/group/discus...n-secular-38051

 

The first settlers came to America in search of religious freedom. The Pilgrims who traveled to America on the Mayflower were fleeing England and the inability to practice their religion which is Christianity. From these roots, the American colonies grew and were based on the principles of Christianity, not the required belief in the faith. The morals, ethics and organization of government was based on a belief in freedom. The Founding Fathers were guided by their Christian beliefs to form a government that would serve the people.

 

It was because of their Christian beliefs that the Founding Fathers were able to write the Declaration of Independence, seeking freedom for the colonies from the rule of the English King. It is necessary to understand that the right of man come from God or the Creator, and therefore, cannot be taken away, reduced or granted by any man, whether he be king or commoner. Without an acceptance of God as the center of the universe, the Founding Fathers could not embrace this belief.

 

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."

--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

 

It might be hard for modern individuals to understand how integrated religion was to behavior. References to God and to freedom are inexorable. Particularly, words spoken by Thomas Jefferson, who is often misinterpreted as being the Founding Father who wrote about the separation of church and state. He did this to preserve the individual's right to worship as he chose, not to protect the state, but to protect the freedom of the individual. The government shall make no religion. Jefferson and others were determined that there be no state religion, but the founding principles are based on Christian morality. For example consider Jefferson's words:

 

"The God who gave us life gave us liberty at the same time: the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them." (Jefferson)

 

George Washington's faith sustained him as the Commander of the Continental Army. He believed that Providence, God was on the side of the colonists who sought freedom from English tyranny. Washington's first inaugrual address gives thanks to God for the new job that he has been summoned to, President of the United States.

 

"Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiary improper to omit in this first official act my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the universe; who presides in the councils of nations; and whose providential aid can supply every human defect; that his benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the People of the United States" (Washington)

[Mr. T]

The Mayflower Declaration

Reproduced by permission of Peter Flower, chairman of the Christian Peoples Alliance

 

 

 

Our Common Christian Faith

We believe that God is the creator of all things and the source of all good. God has made us to worship Him, and to live in love, justice and peace with one another and His Creation. However, our lives are marked by sin, which distorts our relationship with God, with each other, and with the natural world.

 

Yet God does not abandon us in our failure, but in His love has met with us in Jesus Christ. Through His life, death and resurrection, as scripture reveals, Jesus Christ has opened the way to reconciliation with God, and has triumphed over the power of death. We believe that the Holy Spirit is present and seeks to guide us, to lead us to right living, and to bear witness to the truth.

 

A Christian Contribution to Politics

We believe that Jesus Christ calls us to follow him in every area of our lives, including the realm of politics. We recognise that the Kingdom of God cannot be simply identified with any political cause; but we affirm that it demands the pursuit of just government and the promotion of a well-ordered society.

 

We reject the idea that religion is merely the individual's private affair. We regard all of life as subject to the rule of Christ. The Christian faith has been fundamental to British society and of irreplaceable import and influence in the process of shaping the character of our nation. Hence we bear a responsibility both to challenge and to affirm the social and political order in accordance with our understanding of orthodox Christian principles.

 

Understanding Our Times

We believe that under God the well being of society should be judged more by the quality of human relationships than by material attainments, more by the richness of human lives than by the abundance of possessions, and more by the realisation of human values as expressed in scripture than by the accomplishments of technology.

 

We acknowledge and give thanks to God for the many privileges that we enjoy today: the relative stability of our political institutions; the recognition of many civil rights and liberties, comparative economic prosperity; the many advances in industry, science and technology; and the continuing availability of social, educational and health services.

 

However, we also recognise that our nation has failed in many ways to live as God requires. Our society is marred by economic exploitation, poverty, homelessness, family breakdown, neglect of the elderly, child abuse, destruction of the unborn, exploitation of women, racism, violence, crime, drug and alcohol abuse, excessive personal debt, complacency about global suffering and injustice between nations, and careless ravaging of the natural world. Ours is a nation where too often selfishness is rewarded and responsibilities are evaded, and where the fear, loneliness and unhappiness of some are met by the ignorance and indifference of others.

 

We wholeheartedly affirm the value of industry and commerce and the importance of a productive economy for a nation's well being. Nevertheless we find it inadequate to measure the health of society in terms of the growth of the gross national product, growth of the information society and e-commerce, and globalisation, or to attribute its greatest problems merely to such causes as poor economic performance, problems with the welfare state, and long-term industrial decline. The fact that many of our technical and economic solutions serve only to exacerbate the problems confirm that deeper diagnosis is necessary.

 

There are mistaken beliefs to which we have succumbed and idols before which we have bowed. We have placed our faith in humanly desired possibilities of self-sufficient science and technology. We have invested our hopes in the quest for endless economic growth. And, to give meaning to our lives, we have turned to the promise of individual freedom, happiness and prosperity, or have found our identity in collective groups such as state, nation or class. Beneath it all, we have deceived ourselves into thinking that we can solve our problems without reference to God and His good purposes for us. It is time to break with these false notions and to recognise our need for an individual and corporate change of heart and mind.

 

The Meaning of Christian Democracy

The Christian Democratic tradition of thought, in our understanding of it, takes its bearings from Christian convictions about the person, society, and political authority. According to these, the fundamental worth of each human being is derived from being made in the image of God. True human fulfilment is understood as responsible freedom in relation to others, and is found in the development of persons in society.

 

A society should embody an ethos which is neither selfishly individualistic in sanctioning the pursuit of private satisfactions to the detriment of duties towards others, nor tyrranous in supporting the demands of the state or other collective bodies at the expense of the rightful claims of the individual. Instead it should create and nurture a spirit which respects the freedom and integrity of social and cultural institutions such as the family, the school, religious organisations, trade unions and business enterprise, thereby serving to equip citizens to pursue the common good together.

 

The fundamental role of political authority is to ensure justice in the public realm and to create conditions conducive to the common good. The exercise of power by the state must always be equitable and limited, and should be directed to promoting just relations between individuals, associations, communities, and other groups, whilst also respecting their proper independence.

 

Although bearers of political authority have the responsibility of encouraging the good, and rectifying injustice, it is beyond the competence of government to remedy every social ill, and indeed it is the duty of government not to undertake tasks that are the responsibility of family, church, or other spheres of authority where this could be properly fulfilled.

 

Democratic participation enlarges the horizons of people, empowers them as citizens and limits the power of governments. The expression of opinion through representative elections, political parties, public debate and loyal opposition, together with respect for political office and open and accountable government, are intrinsic to responsible democracy. No party or grouping may claim special legal privileges. While Christian Democrat thinking rejects secularism as a public ideology, it does not seek a governing role for any one church denomination. We recognise the role of the Christian faith in shaping the liberties our nation enjoys. Though we want Christianity to continue to be our established religion, we affirm that it also requires the state to acknowledge the rights of religious and cultural minorities and to treat them equitably in public policy. We welcome the diverse faith communities present in our nation.

 

With regard to the economy, democratic responsibility implies that the economy should not be controlled either by the state, or by business and finance, but should build up the contribution and mutual responsibilities of everyone. Economic activity should serve people rather than dominate them. The full personal, social and ecological implications of national and international market activity need to be recognised, rather than merely private or accounting calculations. Inequitable and unfair patterns of distribution need redressing. Our emphasis is therefore on the state's concern with justice and right structures rather than economic performance alone.

 

Reworking the Foundations

We do not imagine that in Christian Democracy we possess simple solutions to the problems of our country. Nevertheless we firmly believe that Christianity can make an important contribution to the well being of society, and that membership of the Christian Peoples Alliance is an appropriate way of affirming this. For this reason we commit ourselves to the following six guiding principles which highlight some basic themes of Christian Democracy.

 

Justice

Justice is ultimately founded in the character of God and its content is given by divine law. Under this law all men and women are due equal respect and have responsibilities to one another and to wider society. Social justice demands an equal regard for all and consequently a special concern for the needs of the poor, the suffering and the powerless. It requires that exploitation and deprivation be fought, and that appropriate resources and opportunities be available so that the basic requirements of all are met and each is enabled to take part in the life of society.

Respect for Life

Human beings are created in the image of God. The right to life is the most basic of all human rights and the intrinsic value of every human life at every stage from conception to natural death should be acknowledged and respected. We therefore especially affirm the fundamental dignity of those who are unborn, infirm, mentally or physically disabled, elderly, or unable to speak for themselves. Such respect for human persons also requires a commitment to maintaining a decent quality of life for all, and to meeting the needs of all those who for whatever reason do not have the essentials of life. Moreover it implies a disavowal of all armaments whose use is incompatible with the pursuit of just peace.

Reconciliation

The Kingdom of God is heralded by a community in which all are called to be reconciled in Christ Jesus. This should be reflected beyond the church in the breaking down of oppression and divisive barriers related to differences of religion, gender, race, class, nation, ideology and political power. These problems have their roots in human sin, expressed through flawed social structures and personal pride and selfishness, which we Christians too often demonstrate as well. It is a task not only for individuals and social and economic groups but also for those engaged in politics, at local, national and international levels, to work towards reconciliation and healing. We recognise that such goals may never be wholly achieved in this world. Nevertheless, humility, repentance, patience and forgiveness are political as well as personal values, and are essential in the process of replacing conflict by common understanding.

Active Compassion

The God of justice is the God of Love, and human beings are called to active loving service of others. Instead of an indifference to the distress of others based on passivity, self-concern or ignorance, such compassionate love inspires an attitude not only of detached justice but also of open-hearted generosity. We all bear the responsibility, individually and corporately, for such service to one another. The government should motivate individuals, families, charities and other associations to active compassion, and should prompt and assist the community to meet the fundamental needs of the poor before satisfying the preferences of the rich.

Wise Stewardship

Human beings are called to be stewards of the Creation, and all economic activity involves our responsibility before God for the world entrusted to us. Economic resources are given by God to serve people's needs, to help in the developing their capacities, particularly for justice, co-operation, and mutual care, and to be used creatively and with responsible concern for others (including future generations) and the environment.

 

Markets are not a law unto themselves, but are shaped by people's decisions. They should therefore be structured in such a way that economic transactions are fair and are undertaken in good faith and with the needs of the community in mind. Concentrations of wealth and power erode responsibility and may cause market distortion. We seek an economy where banks, businesses, trade unions, professional groups and government departments work together with greater mutual understanding and public accountability.

 

The primary task of government in relation to the economy is to oversee the establishment of just structures in all areas of economic activity; such justice includes maintaining a sound currency against inflation and encouraging welath creation by gainful employment. We will discourage continuing dependency on the state welfare provision and gambling so as to equip all to participate fully in the economy and to use resources in a manner that respects the created order of the world.

Empowerment

All authority is from God and must be exercised responsibly in accordance with the Divine ordinances for society. It is given to enable service of the common good and use of it distorts its intended purpose. There are spheres of life such as family and church, in which God has placed authority in structures other than the state. In each case authority should have its own proper limits and be directed towards serving and benefiting those under it. We will encourage active participation between the state and voluntary providers of services.

 

The accumulation of power may often be necessary for the satisfactory performance of certain tasks, but it may also foster patterns of control and domination. Consequently it is wrong to assign to larger organisations what can be adequately done by smaller and more local associations. In particular, those in whom much power is concentrated, such as individual owners of wealth, professional interest groups, trade unions, multi-national corporations, national governments, and leaders of political blocs, while they often exercise power with great responsibility, may yet need to be called to account in view of their potential for working against the common good.

Some Goals for the Christian Peoples Alliance

We have outlined the central ideas of Christian Democracy and these six principles in the belief that they offer a better vision for Britain than those prevalent at this time. The task of bringing them to bear on the problems of a complex society will require both vision and patient attention to detail, careful research and wide-ranging discussion. However, at the outset, we put forward the following as a selection of goals for the Christian Peoples Alliance, acknowledging that they will need further refinement.

 

Education

To improve the quality, resources and morale of the state system of education.

To urge the appropriate authorities to make resources available, so that parents may effectively exercise their right to have children educated in conformity with their own religious and philosophical convictions, especially in the funding by the state of new voluntary aided schools.

Health

To improve the quality, resources and morale of the state system of healthcare.

To improve preventative healthcare to increase the health of the nation and reduce the burden on the NHS.

Welfare

To provide resources for methods of welfare provision by discouraging economic dependency and promoting gainful employment.

To adopt a holistic approach to care, which moves beyond mere financial provision.

To provide assistance to people who are in danger of being pushed to the margins of society, for example the homeless or mentally or physically disabled.

Employment

Improving employment prospects by economic, social and physical means.

To improve the conditions of work to encourage human flourishing and to put people before profit.

To seek measures which would aid the genuine participation of employees both in decisions made by their companies and participation in ownership.

Housing

Develop policies to assist the regions to redress economic imbalances, in order to bring demand for housing into balance.

To encourage and resource communities to develop holistic planning for neighbourhoods, and regenerate deprived areas in partnership with the community.

International Policy

To develop our role in Europe with full consideration of the costs as well as benefits. As presently constituted, the CPA is positive towards the European process.

To work for peace, justice, human rights and reconciliation between and within nations.

To foster human flourishing and quality of life both locally and globally.

To increase the financial and other support provided by this nation to low-income nations with a view to promoting economic independence, especially by partnership with voluntary providers.

Economic/fiscal

To urge the decentralisation of the ownership and management of large-scale corporate, economic and financial enterprises, in order that people may have more direct control over the economic decisions which affect their lives.

To exercise prudent financial management of public resources.

To properly exercise influence over wider economic and fiscal matters.

To reform taxation to the benefit of married families.

Defence

To protect British Citizens and the United Kingdom.

Work towards international peace and security by strengthening UN peacekeeping and multilateral global security, supporting the reduction of armaments and outlawing weapons of mass destruction.

Business

Work for the just distribution of economic benefits.

To ensure that businesses support sustainable communities and preserve the integrity and flourishing of people and creation.

To promote an economy which is stable, diverse, strong, sustainable, adaptable and competitive for existing and new businesses.

To reform food policy by encouraging free, local markets with responsible government intervention.

Environment

To effectively steward natural resources for the use of both our own and future generations.

To work for the restoration of the environment where it has been damaged.

Crime

To build a nation which has a high reputation for justice, safety and civility.

To provide a police service with both high morale and public confidence which is sensitive to the cultures it serves and works in partnership with the community.

Transport

To provide transport systems which meet the full range of needs in ways which are attractive, effective, environmentally friendly and sustainable.

To promote responsibility and participation in the financing and operation of public transport.

Regeneration (Economic, Physical and Social)

To facilitate the economic, social and physical regeneration of decaying communities through local partnerships.

To promote innovation, diversity, equality and sustainability.

Discrimination

To promote and protect the dignity of the person - in civil, political, social, religious, cultural and economic life and in the workplace.

To foster responsibility by people and institutions to work for a just society, marked by love, compassion and peace.

Culture, Media & Sport

To support cultural, media and sport activities and services for all which lead to human flourishing, creativity and improved quality of life.

Agriculture, Fisheries and Food

To support farming methods that practise stewardship by encouraging sustainable farming methods, the appropriate use of technology, maintenance of bio-diversity, and respect for the place of animals within the creation order.

Each policy area is to be considered in relation to both other policy areas and the following areas of focus, to ensure that all policies are considered for their impact in a range of contexts:

The Person

This focus considers how policies contribute to:

 

Respect, equality and the eradication of unrighteous discrimination.

Individuals' responsibility for their families, neighbours and the poor.

Personal financial security through practical measures which will extend and strengthen the emergence of a culture of stewardship.

Creativity and the realisation of individuals' potential.

Providing honourable work and rest.

The Family

This focus considers how policies contribute to:

 

The central importance of the family, including the extended family, for general welfare.

The concept and practice of family property ownership so as to enable families to develop roots and a greater sense of permanence and security in their communities.

Community

This focus considers how policies contribute to:

 

The quality and integrity of human relationships and our relationship with God.

An awareness of our accountability to God in all aspects of public and private life.

The support, regeneration and celebration of community - at work, in rest, in play and in civic arenas.

The decentralisation of political and administrative decisions from regional government to local authorities and from local authorities to neighbourhood structures.

Region

This focus considers how policies contribute to:

 

The decentralisation of political and administrative decisions from central to regional government.

Encourage the flourishing of regional identity, development and vibrancy whilst celebrating diversity.

To support regions adversely affected by global and local trends.

Nation

This focus considers how policies contribute to:

 

Fuller stakeholder participation in political processes.

Governance which is open, efficient, flexible and modern.

Global

This focus considers how policies contribute to:

 

The development of an active role for Britain in international governance structures and alliances in the pursuit of co-operation, mutual benefit, global prosperity and peace-making.

Addressing the issues behind the continuing impoverishment of poorer nations including through debt and international trading policies.

The responsible harnessing and stewardship of the environment for the use of present and future generations.

Conclusion

In founding the Christian Peoples Alliance, we hope to further Christian understanding of social and political matters, to initiate appropriate forms of action, to stimulate informed discussion, and to influence policy-making. We endeavour above all to be authentically Christian in our approach rather than merely different from other political programmes. As Christians, we acknowledge that we are fallible in our grasp of the truth. We also recognise that some Christians will seek other ways of political discipleship. However, we call on all those who share our vision of society to join forces with us, and to promote and act upon the principles and goals outlined in this declaration.

 

ADOPTED BY THE COUNCIL OF THE CHRISTIAN PEOPLES ALLIANCE IN SEPTEMBER 2001

 

[Guest mz.]

The Mayflower Declaration

Reproduced by permission of Peter Flower, chairman of the Christian Peoples Alliance

The Person

This focus considers how policies contribute to:

 

Respect, equality and the eradication of unrighteous discrimination.

Individuals' responsibility for their families, neighbours and the poor.

Personal financial security through practical measures which will extend and strengthen the emergence of a culture of stewardship.

 

You could really stand to work on these, T.

 

I mean, REALLY, in all caps.

 

And they're evidently Christian values, so why not give 'em a whirl...unless you're a hypocrite.

 

[Guest Aloysius]

He did this "editing" in the white house as president. Of course at the time he never made it public of his beliefs, on the outside he was very much a "christian" as during that time virtually everybody in America was Christian. Making publicly known that he was a Deist would be career suicide as a politician

Not sure this is accurate. Jefferson spoke out of both sides of his mouth on religion, but his contemporaries (or at least the more discerning ones) seemed to know that he was a deist. In fact, the Federalists used his religious beliefs against him in the 1800 presidential election.

[heckofajobbrownie]

The man took the New Testament and re-wrote it by removing all mentions of Christ's divinity, miracles, resurrections, or anything supernatural because he didn't think Christ was the Son of God, but did think what he preached amounted to "the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man."

 

You can even order it online here.

 

He also called parts of the Old Testament "the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams."

 

That doesn't sound like the work of a Christian to me. (Probably because he wasn't a Christian.)

[Westside Steve]

Making publicly known that he was a Deist would be career suicide as a politician

 

To the true left is Deism even acceptable?

It requires a belief in a Creator.

 

WSS

[Guest Aloysius]

It's not that his close circle of colleagues were aware of his religious views; it's more like anyone who knew who his close circle of colleagues were probably figured he was a Deist.

 

Can't say whether publicly professing Deism would have been such a political non-starter without doing some research. That said, it seems that retaining the "Christian" label could have been based on another motive: working to reform and "enlighten" Christianity in ways that a guy who spent time splicing the New Testament would be interested in doing.

[Guest Aloysius]

Could be, though it's interesting that Jefferson was convinced that Christianity had been corrupted:

 

Sometime around 1793 Jefferson read An History of the Corruptions of Christianity by Joseph Priestley. As he later said, "I have read [Priestly's] Corruptions of Christianity, and Early opinions of Jesus, over and over again; and I rest on them ... as the basis of my own faith." Priestly argues that the early apostles and Church leaders corrupted Christ's original teachings with cryptic doctrines like the Trinity, original sin, and the atonement. In doing so, Priestly eliminated much of what Jefferson had long found unacceptably mysterious and irrational in Christianity.

So it wouldn't be surprising if Jefferson sought to reverse those corruptions, or at least emphasize the moral teachings he found so valuable.

[Mr. T]

If you want to talk about what has ben removed or even added in the translations of the Bible as we know it today that is wise.

 

As an interesting fact why was it the book of Enoch has been left out of the Old Testament?

 

When you read in Genesis 6 it talks of giants who were about during those times, here is an excellent web site that talks and shows about them, the man who did the research has a 6 foot long femur sitting on his desk.

 

Stretch your mind back to childhood. What giants do you remember? Jack and the Beanstalk? Hercules? Paul Bunyan? Goliath? What were you told and what did you read? With the exception of Goliath and an occasional ornery cyclops, legends emphasized their innate goodness, eye-popping feats accomplished with unparalleled strength, victories over the bad guys and all performed by "gentle giants". What if it were all a lie? What if the truth were something much MUCH more sinister?

 

I have invested over 30 years researching the vast history of giants. It has, for the most part, been kept from the public. Proof of giants' existence - their skeletal remains - has been quickly secreted away in obscure museums, when not destroyed. Additionally, time has cloaked and sugar-coated these creatures' true perverse nature, the majority too vile, too demonic for bedtime stories. However, history is replete with their tales of unimaginable cruelty, sexual perversity, cannibalism and pagan rituals. This is only the beginning. Some things are best forgotten. . . or are they?

 

Where did these giants come from and what was their connection with ordinary humans? Just who were they? What happened to these extraordinary creatures? Is it possible they could ever return? The last question I will answer right now - YES, they most definitely could return! And they have something much worse in mind for mankind.

 

http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/index2.html

 

http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/charts/charts.html

[heckofajobbrownie]

"In extracting the pure principles which he taught, we should have to strip off the artificial vestments in which they have been muffled by priests, who have travestied them into various forms, as instruments of riches and power to themselves. We must dismiss the Platonists and Plotinists, the Stagyrites and Gamalielites, the Eclectics, the Gnostics and Scholastics, their essences and emanations, their logos and demiurges, aeons and daemons, male and female, with a long train of … or, shall I say at once, of nonsense."

[calfoxwc]

I'm still waiting for those who think our country was not founded in Christian beliefs,

 

to critique what I posted.

 

With no criticism, how is it that certain people are still arguing like I didn't post it?

[osusev]

How about this cal:

 

the concept of christian ownership of the core value set founding this country is fundamentally flawed.

 

here is my proof of concept:

 

Similar ideology and social controls were constructed simultaneously all over the world predating judaism and were well out of the sphere of influence of those nations.

 

From North america/ South America/ ASIA where judeo christian religous influence never reached other similar social "ethic" based concepts were deployed by multitudes of other religions.

 

IF there was a actual Christ he was THOUSANDS of years only regurgitating what dozens of other religions already espoused.

 

For me personally I think the founders were in fact influenced by the Christian religion which holds successful axioms that lots of other religions and societies have found successful in holding together large and small populations.

 

This really is about a set of social controls that benefit and protect social groups. Christians/Jews dont "own" socially beneficial axioms, they i have implemented them in writing and formations of governments.

 

I dont find anything wrong with being proud of valuable social behavior controls and calling them "christian". Honestly I dont care who portends to own the concepts as long as some of them are in place so I can leave my house without fear of assualt or murder.

[Mr. T]

Some you guys may want to put on your tin foil hats, all over the world people are worshipping God.

 

 

..its a conspiracy.

 

 

[Guest mz.]

Way to avoid my question, T.

 

Got any more tinfoil hat smack to toss around instead?

[calfoxwc]

Well, Sev, that is interesting, but how is this:

 

Mankind is endowed with the ability to percieve his/her environment from the beginning of mankind.

 

Now, if you ever read Joseph Campbell's "Hero of a Thousand Faces" (a profoundly brilliant work),

 

and I'm not saying you haven't read it already, Sev, btw:

 

But given his theory about the monomyth, there is nearly an endless stream of evidence

 

that mankind has deemed the universe similarly, in terms of deity, adventure, symbolism that

 

has occured to varying degrees of complexity.

 

It doesn't matter - the ancient Roman and Greek legends, ancient asian legends, American

 

Indian legends, European stories- it is an innate makeup of mankind to see the universe through the eyes

 

of a common denominator - that same instinct to percieve of the universe similarly. And, even in history,

 

various aspects of the monomyth can be found, albeit that is still a subjective appraisal - hence, the "theory"

 

monicer is valid.

 

Because the Bible "repeats" these is in itself understandable. It was written by men who were Godly inspired.

 

It does not negate the validity of the Bible because of that.

 

Campbell outlined the major elements of the similar fundamental points of expressing perception of the universe:

 

For instance, the "trials and tribulations" exist in "Jason and the Golden Fleece" (straight out of the original Greek),

 

and the "Wizard of Oz", and the Round Table legends about Parsifal seeking the Holy Grail.

 

But then you can read an historical account of major battles of our troops in wars, and elements of

 

the monomyth pops out again in various forms, and various degrees.

 

The Bible is not a fabrication merely because human beings see the world around them and explain

 

all stories and explanations of the universes' occurences in a similar matter.

[Mr. T]

Im with you there Inspecta, There have been many things as of recent that would not of come about without the power of prayer and with the help from God.

 

God empowers all who will allow him.

 

One of my favorites,

Philippians 4:13 (New King James Version)

I can do all things through Christ[a] who strengthens me.

 

 

 

[Guest Aloysius]

These codes are built into the game, and are simply "unlocked". I believe this to be the case with the miracles of the bible. God merely "unlocked" the ability for Jonah to survive in the belly of that fish, or for Jesus to walk on water, or feed 5,000. It's not some mysterious hocus pocus magic, but merely logical code which God has built into this universe.

Maimonides said pretty much the same thing over eight hundred years ago. The problem with it is that the degree of divine foreknowledge this explanation proposes doesn't leave much room for human free will. If God knew way back at the time of creation that the Red Sea would have to split right when the fleeing Israelites needed to and, in an act of divine schadenfreude, submerge the chasing Egyptians just after the Israelites got the hell out of there, what does that say about the agency of the main actors in that story? Seems like they're just pawns in a pre-cogged divine game.

 

Maimonides responds by suggesting that divine knowledge is something completely different from what we consider knowledge, so the apparent conflict between God's omniscience and human free will doesn't actually exist. The problem with that, though, is that it puts divine knowledge behind such a distant barrier that it almost inevitably leads to a non-Theist perspective. If God's ways are unknowable to such a large degree, then how can we ever claim that we're doing what God wants us to do? Or that he's given us signs that what we're doing is wrong or right?

 

He bridges that gap with his theory of prophecy, which is incredibly complicated and based on a medieval version of metaphysics that no one finds compelling anymore. And modern philosophy has only widened the gap between what we can know with our human faculties and what exists beyond the epistemic limits of space and time.

 

So it seems to me that if God exists, it's entirely possible that he created a code for the universe. But it's not open source, so we're pretty much in the dark as to what it says.