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Beware The Next Jeff George & David Carr Greatest Workouts Ever Types Today.


Flugel

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While we want to see some accuracy and arm strength out there today - let's try to keep it all in perspective. That is there is no pass rush changing time to throw, releases and mechanics as ALL QBs coming to our T-shirt tradition have painfully experienced. There's also no DCs confusing the crap out of young WRs and QB tandems trying to be on the same page in adjustment to either a zone blitz or a brilliant disguise of one. There will be NO corners today to press a WR or challenge the QB to fit a tight window.

 

In essence, the combines as well as the scripted workouts (that often hide weaknesses) have often created a lot of false positives and fast risers over the years. In fact, the Combines took a guy like Tom Brady and buried him all the way down the pecking order to late round 6 not too long after a very impressive Bowl Game performance where erased a big deficit to win. Even Bill Walsh got confused and took a QB Gino Carmozzi from Hofstra instead of Brady so even Paul Brown's best pupil got confused by workouts. After not suiting up for about 90% of NE's games as a rookie - BB told Brady he needed to get stronger in the weight room if he wanted to make it in this league. Just 1 year later, he won his 1st of 5 Superbowl Championships. On the other hand, the combines made Jay Cutler a very overpaid QB that wins even less frequently than he did for a Bowl-less Vandy team.

 

 

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While we want to see some accuracy and arm strength out there today - let's try to keep it all in perspective. That is there is no pass rush changing time to throw, releases and mechanics as ALL QBs coming to our T-shirt tradition have painfully experienced. There's also no DCs confusing the crap out of young WRs and QB tandems trying to be on the same page in adjustment to either a zone blitz or a brilliant disguise of one. There will be NO corners today to press a WR or challenge the QB to fit a tight window.

 

In essence, the combines as well as the scripted workouts (that often hide weaknesses) have often created a lot of false positives and fast risers over the years. In fact, the Combines took a guy like Tom Brady and buried him all the way down the pecking order to late round 6 not too long after a very impressive Bowl Game performance where erased a big deficit to win. Even Bill Walsh got confused and took a QB Gino Carmozzi from Hofstra instead of Brady so even Paul Brown's best pupil got confused by workouts. After not suiting up for about 90% of NE's games as a rookie - BB told Brady he needed to get stronger in the weight room if he wanted to make it in this league. Just 1 year later, he won his 1st of 5 Superbowl Championships. On the other hand, the combines made Jay Cutler a very overpaid QB that wins even less frequently than he did for a Bowl-less Vandy team.

 

 

 

 

Couldn't agree more. The combine is great to give raw data and should be part of the evaluation process but watching how guys played and who they played against should be a bigger factor.

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Couldn't agree more. The combine is great to give raw data and should be part of the evaluation process but watching how guys played and who they played against should be a bigger factor.

 

Nonsense, game tape is highly overrated. I look for their Hopscotch times, but more importantly, their Duck Duck Goose times.

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While we want to see some accuracy and arm strength out there today - let's try to keep it all in perspective. That is there is no pass rush changing time to throw, releases and mechanics as ALL QBs coming to our T-shirt tradition have painfully experienced. There's also no DCs confusing the crap out of young WRs and QB tandems trying to be on the same page in adjustment to either a zone blitz or a brilliant disguise of one. There will be NO corners today to press a WR or challenge the QB to fit a tight window.

 

In essence, the combines as well as the scripted workouts (that often hide weaknesses) have often created a lot of false positives and fast risers over the years. In fact, the Combines took a guy like Tom Brady and buried him all the way down the pecking order to late round 6 not too long after a very impressive Bowl Game performance where erased a big deficit to win. Even Bill Walsh got confused and took a QB Gino Carmozzi from Hofstra instead of Brady so even Paul Brown's best pupil got confused by workouts. After not suiting up for about 90% of NE's games as a rookie - BB told Brady he needed to get stronger in the weight room if he wanted to make it in this league. Just 1 year later, he won his 1st of 5 Superbowl Championships. On the other hand, the combines made Jay Cutler a very overpaid QB that wins even less frequently than he did for a Bowl-less Vandy team.

 

 

Hue "felt the earth move" checking out you know who under similar circumstances. Make him wear a blindfold Sashi. :)

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Every year someone emerges as a "freak" and rises way up.....but rarely does his play follow.....

 

Game tape proves the most.....

 

Well Maycock loved the game tape of Mitch (or should I say Mitchell). Sure he's not "ready" for the NFL. But to Mike he's not as good a prospect as prototypical size Kizer who was spraying the ball into the turf or over guy's heads at the combine.

 

You have to wonder (and I don't doubt) part of Trubisky's thinking on declaring was the very real possibility he could be drafted by the hometown Browns.

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Well Maycock loved the game tape of Mitch (or should I say Mitchell). Sure he's not "ready" for the NFL. But to Mike he's not as good a prospect as prototypical size Kizer who was spraying the ball into the turf or over guy's heads at the combine.

 

You have to wonder (and I don't doubt) part of Trubisky's thinking on declaring was the very real possibility he could be drafted by the hometown Browns.

 

Maybe Trubisky is smarter than we thought. If he came back next year he would have to improve the W-L record on that team, but if he comes out early some damn fools who've been fools since 1999 would probably jump him up over everyone else cause they like to stay the Browns.

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Maybe Trubisky is smarter than we thought. If he came back next year he would have to improve the W-L record on that team, but if he comes out early some damn fools who've been fools since 1999 would probably jump him up over everyone else cause they like to stay the Browns.

I'll bet Cardale Jones wished he had gone that route.

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can't wait until after the draft and all the little aggies go and root for whatever team gets garrett

 

We don't give up on the Browns that easily. And everyone here knows I still follow Von with Denver while watching the Browns every Sunday. Zombo gets on me for it all the time, but I've been here through a lot of flack over JM, so ain't agoin' nowheres any time soon.

 

Your problem is not liking people to disagree with your opinion.

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no problem here Ag, Just tired of hereing about Texas prospects being better than everyone else.

As far as flack over JM i still hold he was the most talented QB we had in 2015. if kessler were not on the team he would have been the most talented QB of 2016 had he been on the roster. Damn shame the kid couldent kick the bottle.

I just remember Courtney Brown and Mingo but that was before your time

Cunningham did 15 for who was asking

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We don't give up on the Browns that easily. And everyone here knows I still follow Von with Denver while watching the Browns every Sunday. Zombo gets on me for it all the time, but I've been here through a lot of flack over JM, so ain't agoin' nowheres any time soon.

 

Your problem is not liking people to disagree with your opinion.

 

Not disagreeing with your opinion. You've seen way more of Garrett than I have. One of the last JM survivors. If we draft Garrett I won't be disappointed (well, OK maybe a little). Yup, I've seen enough of Myles to believe he's the real deal. Potential Lawrence Taylor type.

 

Here's the funny thing Ag. The shoe is sort of on the other foot now. I was deadly cold blooded evaluating Manziel. Don't think you were on the Board pre draft, but I was the leader in the clubhouse in anti-Manziel rants. I could have puked when we drafted him. Every one of my fears about the guy came true, in spades. So now you're the one that's being objective about Mitch, and me and Gip are seeing things through the eyes of a Cleveland fan. Yeah- it's been 13 games, but I've seen everything I want to see out of a potential franchise qb. Accuracy, quick release, decent arm, good mobility, good pocket presence.

 

He goes to the Browns the hopes are going to be it's the second coming of that other hometown guy Bernie Kosar. (Yeah mom is worried about the pressure he'll be under) We love our local guys to make good. I can tell you this- if Trubisky wins a SB for the Browns, they'd take down the 80' poster of LeBron and put Mitch up there instead. He wins a couple, and they'll put his statue outside the stadium right next to Jim Brown's in 20 years.

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Not disagreeing with your opinion. You've seen way more of Garrett than I have. One of the last JM survivors. If we draft Garrett I won't be disappointed (well, OK maybe a little). Yup, I've seen enough of Myles to believe he's the real deal. Potential Lawrence Taylor type.

 

Here's the funny thing Ag. The shoe is sort of on the other foot now. I was deadly cold blooded evaluating Manziel. Don't think you were on the Board pre draft, but I was the leader in the clubhouse in anti-Manziel rants. I could have puked when we drafted him. Every one of my fears about the guy came true, in spades. So now you're the one that's being objective about Mitch, and me and Gip are seeing things through the eyes of a Cleveland fan. Yeah- it's been 13 games, but I've seen everything I want to see out of a potential franchise qb. Accuracy, quick release, decent arm, good mobility, good pocket presence.

 

He goes to the Browns the hopes are going to be it's the second coming of that other hometown guy Bernie Kosar. (Yeah mom is worried about the pressure he'll be under) We love our local guys to make good. I can tell you this- if Trubisky wins a SB for the Browns, they'd take down the 80' poster of LeBron and put Mitch up there instead. He wins a couple, and they'll put his statue outside the stadium right next to Jim Brown's in 20 years.

 

Understand that totally. But Neon Dion said it best tonight. Basically you can't put any QB into a must win situation that poor defense creates when you led the league the year before in getting your QB sacked and hurt. He thought that is exactly what happened to David Carr in Houston. He then made the case for building a great D first, then the blocks for an offense until you could find a QB that only needed to throw 17 times a game or so. Seattle's way was his example. I agree with that philosophy of building a team, especially since the other way has now been tried so often here since 1999 that it should make everyone sit up and rethink. Quit butting the wall when so many great D players are available throughout this draft.

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Understand that totally. But Neon Dion said it best tonight. Basically you can't put any QB into a must win situation that poor defense creates when you led the league the year before in getting your QB sacked and hurt. He thought that is exactly what happened to David Carr in Houston. He then made the case for building a great D first, then the blocks for an offense until you could find a QB that only needed to throw 17 times a game or so. Seattle's way was his example. I agree with that philosophy of building a team, especially since the other way has now been tried so often here since 1999 that it should make everyone sit up and rethink. Quit butting the wall when so many great D players are available throughout this draft.

I don't disagree with the philosophy of building the team first...BUT how many opportunities will the Browns have to draft a franchise QB? If the Browns win their typical 3-5 games, what are the odds a top notch QB will fall to them with the 3rd to 5th pick? They will be relegated to finding their franchise QB in the later rounds. We know how well that's worked out in the past.

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I don't disagree with the philosophy of building the team first...BUT how many opportunities will the Browns have to draft a franchise QB? If the Browns win their typical 3-5 games, what are the odds a top notch QB will fall to them with the 3rd to 5th pick? They will be relegated to finding their franchise QB in the later rounds. We know how well that's worked out in the past.

 

You mean like Seattle and Dallas? Or Maybe Green Bay? Or how about just getting a broken down old guy added to Denver's D. No one can argue that Manning wasn't pretty well a shadow of his former self that year.

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You mean like Seattle and Dallas? Or Maybe Green Bay? Or how about just getting a broken down old guy added to Denver's D. No one can argue that Manning wasn't pretty well a shadow of his former self that year.

I'm not saying you can't get a franchise QB in the 3rd to 6th round, but is that the exception or the rule?

 

I would be happy if the Browns could hit on a first rounder at ANY position.

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Not disagreeing with your opinion. You've seen way more of Garrett than I have. One of the last JM survivors. If we draft Garrett I won't be disappointed (well, OK maybe a little). Yup, I've seen enough of Myles to believe he's the real deal. Potential Lawrence Taylor type.

 

me and Gip are seeing things through the eyes of a Cleveland fan. Yeah- it's been 13 games, but I've seen everything I want to see out of a potential franchise qb. Accuracy, quick release, decent arm, good mobility, good pocket presence.

 

He goes to the Browns the hopes are going to be it's the second coming of that other hometown guy Bernie Kosar. (Yeah mom is worried about the pressure he'll be under) We love our local guys to make good. I can tell you this- if Trubisky wins a SB for the Browns, they'd take down the 80' poster of LeBron and put Mitch up there instead. He wins a couple, and they'll put his statue outside the stadium right next to Jim Brown's in 20 years.

 

You've seen Mitch L. start 2 games (NC State & Stanford) in his entire scholarship. Both were losses with the following alibi's - they dropped too many passes and the defense let him down. Does that really sound like the answer to all our problems when it wasn't even the answer to a better team than this one? NC didn't get better in 2016 they got worse from their 11-3 record in 2015 just like we got worse.

 

Our defense ranked 31st/32nd overall as well as in points allowed so guess what that does for a rookie QB in Cleveland? It turns 60,000 home fans into a bunch of Hatfields watching the next QB play like a McCoy. We've also seen about 50,000 of our seating capacity cheer as Tim Couch lay motionless. Do you REALLY want this for your local boy Mitch L? They'll forget what state he's from as fast as they forgot it for Charlie Frye and Brady Quinn... We've seen this sequel so often there's a FREAKIN t-shirt.

 

An NFL player (10 Time Pro Bowl LT) like Joe Thomas & even a former player like Deion (that never wastes his time watching Cleveland) understands our roster isn't ready to allow a rookie QB to succeed or survive especially in a year when the supply for the demand is labelled disappointing by a majority of draft analysts/experts.

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BUT how many opportunities will the Browns have to draft a franchise QB?

 

So the LA Rams are all set? How have the Raiders done since they took Jamarcus Russell? Oh wait, they just drafted Derek Carr in round 2 and he's performed like the QB they always hoped Jamarcus Russell would be.

 

If Jax drafted the pick of the QB litter in 2014, why are they still drafting 4th overall in 2017?

 

And how many rings does Alex Smith have since he was drafted 1st overall? As many as Joey Harrington? As many as David Carr? As many as Tim Couch and Akili Smith and David Klingler?

 

Even when a team like TN got a QB right like Marcus Mariota, they earned the right to draft 1st overall the year because the team around the QB wasn't up to snuff so they traded back, added picks and celebrated going from 2-14 in 2015 to 9-7 in 2016. They also got vets back healthy and made some pretty good FA choices like Rishard Matthews (945 yards & 65 rec despite starting only 9 games) and they also took Demarco Murray away from disappointment in Philly to a successful 2016 season in Nashville. They BETTERED the environment around the QB significantly in 1 off season and had a Rookie RT (Conklin) make All Pro.

 

What I'm getting at here is some years the supply of franchise saviors at QB just isn't found at the top of the draft or with the pick of the litter at the QB position. Yes, we have the first overall pick but the QB position is weak this year while our 31st ranked defense has some solutions to our glaring weaknesses. I'd LOVE to see Joe Haden get some degree of help up front with a pass rush. I always remembered Dixon and Minnifield getting flagged more frequently and seeing them get beat more often vrs Elway when it became apparent what they looked like under the same conditions Joe Haden has to play in every freakin week here these days. When you go bump and run, it counts on pressuring the QB and we haven't even been close to extending Joe this perk. It's kind of like what we've giving Joe Thomas at OG next to him all the years in between Eric Steinbach and Joel Bitionio. We draft these guys and slap hand cuffs on them.

 

There should be some excellent football players on our door step at #1 overall that have a bigger shot at success here than a rookie QB coming out of a spread offense.

 

Some of you guys thinking you want Trubisky today will be the first ones protesting we blew the 1st overall pick of the draft. Others, will spend the next 5 years writing excuses and alibis for why we lost and don't you dare blame Trubisky.

 

I remember being a Couch fan pre-draft and felt bad about the situation he was drafted to. The 1 year we made the playoffs in 2002, Davis decided at the bye week to take the offense off of Couch's shoulders and put it on the running gmae where our rookie RB averaged over 100 yards rushing over the last 6 weeks of the year. In fact, the day we faced Atlanta - Couch got injured with us behind by 10 points. Holcomb came in and Green rushed for 164 yards to help us erase the deficit and clinch our only playoff spot this side of 99. In the playoff game, Holcomb threw for 429 yards while the potential game clinching TD pass bounced off Northcutt's number while Anthony Henry also dropped what would have been a game clinching INT. The debate was always Bust vrs Bad Team around QB killing Couch's chances to succeed. Well, it's 2017 and we still have the bad team that won't allow a QB to succeed so how many times do we need to watch this sequel in order to understand it? Do we really need Deion Sanders and Joe Thomas to tell us what we've been watching?

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History over the last 20 drafts shows that every other year(50%) the first round is bust city for QB's.....every other year......

 

here is a link to the QB draft history......

 

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?type=position

 

Now.....look up the 1st round QB's in 2014 - 2013 - 2010 - 2007 - 2006 - 2002 - 2001 - 2000 - 1997 - 1996....

 

All those busts....why?.....because teams over draft QB ...year in and year out.....drafting a guy in the first, just "because" thats where you get them, is stupid when there is not one that demands it.....this year is gonna be one of those years.....

 

That is 10 years out of 20 where the first round did NOT produce a franchise QB.....

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drafting a guy in the first, just "because" thats where you get them, is stupid when there is not one that demands it.....this year is gonna be one of those years.....

 

Precisely! Well said.

 

People always like to conveniently forget the existence of 1st round picks like: Joey Harrington, David Carr, Jeff George, David Klingler, Akili Smith, Blake Bortles, Jamarcus Russell, Kyle Boller, Patrick Ramsey, Jake Locker, Jay Cutler, Matt Leinart, Cade McNown, EJ Manual, JP Losman, Patrick Ramsey, Blaine Gabbert, Heath Shuler, etc.

 

There's probably a couple of hose guys that could have played much better in better surroundings (ie; David Carr). But I could be wrong with that. Remember all the QBs in Tampa that played like the stink they were surrounded by such as Steve Young, Doug Williams and Vinny Testaverde? Every one of those prematurely labelled busts in Tampa made Pro Bowls and Playoffs after Tampa. Even Vinny who QB'd the Jets to an NFC Championship Game out in Denver.What changed? Their chances to succeed. Cleveland ain't offering a chance to succeed - they're offering rookie QBs what Tampa Bay used to.

 

Poor Kyle Boller was named after a different sport so it's a good thing his parents decided to spell their last name wrong when he opted to play football.

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That is 10 years out of 20 where the first round did NOT produce a franchise QB.....

 

 

 

Precisely! Well said.

And Ill take it one further....

 

In addition to the 10 out of the last 20 drafts that did NOT produce a 1st round franchise QB....lets look at a few years that did...

 

2012 produced Luck.....but someone else drafted RG iii at #2...

 

2011 is the most comical mess Ive ever seen....Jake Locker at #8....Blaine Gabbert at #10.....Christian Ponder at #12

 

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaha.....cant stop laughing long enough to list the rest....but it goes on and on and on.....

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History over the last 20 drafts shows that every other year(50%) the first round is bust city for QB's.....every other year......

 

here is a link to the QB draft history......

 

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?type=position

 

Now.....look up the 1st round QB's in 2014 - 2013 - 2010 - 2007 - 2006 - 2002 - 2001 - 2000 - 1997 - 1996....

 

All those busts....why?.....because teams over draft QB ...year in and year out.....drafting a guy in the first, just "because" thats where you get them, is stupid when there is not one that demands it.....this year is gonna be one of those years.....

 

That is 10 years out of 20 where the first round did NOT produce a franchise QB.....

 

 

And that's why you don't reach. I'd rather see the Browns trade up in 2018 or 2019 and give up the farm for "the guy" then reach when you've got real needs.

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And Ill take it one further....

 

In addition to the 10 out of the last 20 drafts that did NOT produce a 1st round franchise QB....lets look at a few years that did...

 

2012 produced Luck.....but someone else drafted RG iii at #2...

 

2011 is the most comical mess Ive ever seen....Jake Locker at #8....Blaine Gabbert at #10.....Christian Ponder at #12

 

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaha.....cant stop laughing long enough to list the rest....but it goes on and on and on.....

 

I already listed a bunch of them but forgot Christy Ponder so thank you for that one.

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Maybe Trubisky is smarter than we thought. If he came back next year he would have to improve the W-L record on that team, but if he comes out early some damn fools who've been fools since 1999 would probably jump him up over everyone else cause they like to stay the Browns.

 

This... especially in light of the QB class as a whole... but with emphasis on his personal performance, not the team's record which at 8-5 is not exactly a feather in his cap.

 

If you are a flash in a pan in your first season, then you let it stand.

 

As far as flack over JM i still hold he was the most talented QB we had in 2015. if kessler were not on the team he would have been the most talented QB of 2016 had he been on the roster. Damn shame the kid couldent kick the bottle.

 

"Talented"... interesting word choice. Took me a while to figure out why your statement was bugging me, but I think I finally did.

 

From a talent standpoint, innate throwing and running ability, JFF was easily our most talented QB since our rebirth with one possible exception... RG3.

 

Skilled? Ah... different question in my mind. A word that brings the practical, effective application of innate talent to bear. I'd submit that's where Kess gets competitive.

 

The reasons that JFF and RG3 have failed to convert their talent to skill differ greatly, but in the end their failure to do so is what they have in common.

 

He goes to the Browns the hopes are going to be it's the second coming of that other hometown guy Bernie Kosar.

 

Interesting choice since Bernie came to the Browns as the last piece of the puzzle joining a top ten Defense (scoring and yards).

 

... how many opportunities will the Browns have to draft a franchise QB?

 

Unless we start trading away 1st round picks, the answer is at least one per year.

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Unless we start trading away 1st round picks, the answer is at least one per year.

Judging from the quality of 1st rounders selected, the Browns might as well trade the the first pick.

 

At least we're sure to get 2 guys with marginal NFL talent.

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Judging from the quality of 1st rounders selected, the Browns might as well trade the the first pick.

 

At least we're sure to get 2 guys with marginal NFL talent.

 

Maybe BB remembering some of his forgettable first rounds in Cleveland like Craig Powell or Touchdown-Free Tommy Vardell eventually got him thinking "why don't I just start trading back for more picks?" That's worked out pretty damn good for NE. TN's new front office guy (Jon Robinson) who came over from the NE Patriots last off season - did the same thing for TN by trading back and adding volume. They had 3 picks in round 2 ending with Derrick Henry. Ozzie said he learned a lot about the draft from BB in Cleveland.

 

Teams that let the draft fall to them or trade back do better than the ones that get knee jerky for trade-ups. The year we traded up for KWII we could have stayed put for Ben Roethlisberger. Another year we stayed put and went with what Savage called the safe route with Braylon Edwards at #3 overall we could have added picks while trading back as far as into the 20s to select Aaron Rodgers at QB.

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