Rush today

[Westside Steve]

Still waiting for your plan for more responsible poor people, though, Steve.

 

Oh I'll think it over. It's off this topic so maybe I'd give it its own thread if I think of something.

Honestly I don't think there's really any plan from the outside that will make a huge difference.

I'm not sure a program can trump human nature.

WSS

 

[Guest mz.]

You lefties just blast me before you read it or what?

 

Where else does one receive "strict counseling" after receiving a loan?

 

And saying the lefty jab was so beyond, well, GAY.

 

[Guest mz.]

Look, 'spec, I realize you feel the way you feel, but without numbers I'm not inclined to believe your gut, your anecdotal evidence or even Bill Cosby. I'm sorry. It has nothing to do with any label I'm afraid I'll get (do I seem afraid to speak my mind?), it has to do with me being a person who believes in statistics over stories.

[Westside Steve]

Where else does one receive "strict counseling" after receiving a loan?

 

Before you get it.

It'd be nice that the applicant had a plan in mind before the govt gave a low interest loan.

If you get a small business loan you have to show a plan.

I'd like it monitored so as to go to actual education.

If you don't want to follow a guideline I suuppose you can get a private loan at regular rate and do as you wish.

 

And saying the lefty jab was so beyond, well, GAY.

 

 

Uh OK.

WSS

[Guest mz.]

The plan is to "get an education." Does the gov't come in and check to see your Burger King operation to "see how you're doing"? I think this places much more pressure on the student. Not only does he have to worry about his grades, and what his parents think, but now what the gov't thinks.

 

Plus, asking a 16-17 year old what he plans to do with his education is a fruitless enterprise. Even if he/she is a smart kid.

[Guest mz.]

No, I guess I should be more apt to believe one dude in North Carolina and base my entire belief system upon his life experience.

[heckofajobbrownie]

Inspecta, you should find out how welfare works in this country, because it doesn't work the way you think it does.

 

It's not an entitlement, you can't have it forever (5 years max, less in some states), and you have to work for it eventually.

 

In other words, there are "responsibility" clauses already built into the system, and you can get federal money without meeting those requirements.

 

So you're just wrong there. No one just shows up and receives a check forever because they qualify.

 

And Steve, I find your inability to toss out even a general suggestion on what the government can do to help the poor be more "responsible" rather telling.

 

Well, maybe now you understand why this makes no sense as a policy question: "More responsibility among the poor will elevate the standards of their communities far better than transferring more money from the "rich."

 

So doing nothing (because you don't think government can do anything here) is a better government solution than, say, using tax dollars to invest in early education, primary education, cops and anti-crime programs, grants and aid for college education, health care, jobs programs, etc.?

 

I'd beg to differ. So would anyone who's thought about this for more than a minute.

[Guest mz.]

I'm not asking you to base your entire belief system on what I've said, but don't dismiss it completely either. Especially when I post links to a well respected black leader saying the same exact thing I've been saying. Sorry I can't find any gov't study of this aspect of the black community, and to be honest how does one go about conducting a study to find out how f*cked up parts of the black community have become?

 

I'm not dismissing it completely, and I regret making you think I said that. I'm just taking it for what it is, one man's life experience.

 

I just have to shake my head and come to the conclusion you've led a very sheltered life if you've never experienced the things I've been talking about. One has to think that you're interaction with black people have been very limited, like say to watching the Chappelle show or something.

 

This is why you shouldn't make assumptions, friend. I went to a half-black high school outside of Newark, NJ. But nice asshole comments about someone you know nothing about, anyway.

[Westside Steve]

The plan is to "get an education." Does the gov't come in and check to see your Burger King operation to "see how you're doing"?

 

If you get a govt SBA loan? Hell yes they do.

They want a complete business outline with profit projections and a look at your hiring habits.

Hey if you're aski8ng for a hand then expect to be upfront abpout it.

Go to the bank and ask for a home loan. Tell 'em to piss off when they ask you where that house is and how you're gonna pay for it.

Tell 'em "The plan is to get a goddam house!!"

 

 

I think this places much more pressure on the student. Not only does he have to worry about his grades, and what his parents think, but now what the gov't thinks.

 

Plus, asking a 16-17 year old what he plans to do with his education is a fruitless enterprise. Even if he/she is a smart kid.

 

Then why's he going? Just to go?

WSS

[Guest mz.]

As liberal as I am with a lot of issues, I really don't get you guys, and why you want to let these people off the hook from any personal responsibility.

 

Because I believe in the inherent goodness of people and what you see as "letting people off the hook from personal responsibility" I see as "giving poor people a fcuking chance."

 

The "you guys" shit has grown incredibly tiresome.

[Guest mz.]

Then why's he going? Just to go?

WSS

 

Are you doing what you thought you'd be doing with your life when you were sixteen?

 

[heckofajobbrownie]

As liberal as I am with a lot of issues, I really don't get you guys, and why you want to let these people off the hook from any personal responsibility.

 

I just explained to you how the law doesn't allow a free ride. Why would you think that means I'm in favor of a free ride, or against personal responsibility?

 

I'm suggesting that many people who rail against welfare cheats and those who live off the government don't really know how welfare works, because it doesn't allow people to stay in a permanent state of dependence, or for even that long.

 

 

[Guest mz.]

I don't believe you, please provide data to back up this claim.

 

So am I to assume your entire experience with the black population came from the 4 years you spent in high school?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_High...ol_(New_Jersey)

 

Columbia High School is an extremely diverse school ethnically, with just over half the students being of African-American heritage and just under half being Caucasian. There has been much discussion regarding the Racial Academic Achievement Gap in the school district. During the 2004-2005 school year, the student run Martin Luther King Association organization demanded more access to higher level academics for minorities in the district. Most recently, on March 29, 2006 there was a student walk-out and protest regarding issues such as the outsourcing of security positions, a proposed schedule change, and alleged racial remarks made by the principal. The protest was considered a success. The superintendent announced his resignation the next day. The protest is also believed to have heavily influenced the Board of Education election a few weeks later. Two incumbent members were voted out, including the chairman, in a landslide election.

 

Good enough? I made a claim and backed it with DATA.

 

Do you want me to forward you my transcripts? Or how about a urine sample?

 

I also went to college in Atlanta, GA. Do we need to have a discussion on Atlanta's demographics now too?

 

Stop being a dick, dude.

[Westside Steve]

Are you doing what you thought you'd be doing with your life when you were sixteen?

 

Actually yes, but that doesn't matter.

I've never finished my degree.

But:

We're talking about a government benefit. A cheap loan.

I don't support making public school K through 16.

 

WSS

[Guest mz.]

I believe in the inherent goodness as well, but when somebody demonstrates that they are abusing the system then something needs to be done besides throwing another shrimp on the barbie.

 

So take it on a case-by-case basis and stop generalizing.

 

[Guest mz.]

Actually yes, but that doesn't matter.

 

I'm glad you are, but it does matter. It's too much to ask of a 16 year old kid IMO.

 

[Guest Aloysius]

Bill Cosby tells it like it is

You should read the entire article, as well as Coates' video supplement to the piece.

 

I think Coates does a good job of explaining where Cosby's coming from (a perspective you may not be comfortable with) and offering a counterargument (one I find convincing).

[Guest mz.]

Actually I was being sarcastic, but nevermind the fact you quote a wikipedia page, something that you can edit on the fly to say whatever you want. Not that I'm claiming you did this, but still Wikipedia is far from a reliable source.

 

With all of cal's and T's trash sources, you choose to question the validity of a high school's Wikipedia entry. Yes, I edited my high school's Wikipedia entry. It is a Liberal, biased online encyclopedia after all. I guess I could ask Columbia HS's principal to email you if you prefer.

 

Better source?

http://www.muninetguide.com/schools/NJ/Map...Sr-High-School/

 

Latino - 4.4%

4.4% of Columbia Sr High School's students are Latino

 

White - 37.3%

37.3% of Columbia Sr High School's students are Caucasian

 

Black - 55.6%

55.6% of Columbia Sr High School's students are of African descent

 

Asian - 2.7%

2.7% of Columbia Sr High School's students are of Asian descent

 

Perhaps you're the sheltered one, Inspecta.

 

And nobody's ignoring the problem, just your anecdotal accounts of it.

[Guest mz.]

Coates' video supplement to the piece.

 

An absolutely great perspective piece.

 

[Guest mz.]

So your saying that you acknowledge the problem in the black community you just chose to be a dick and discredit the personal experiences that I've had?

 

Why am I not surprised.

 

How many times to I have to say that I acknowledge a problem, like you, but don't necessarily agree with your anecdotal evidence applied to the group as a whole? This IS NOT discrediting your personal experience.

[Guest mz.]

Also I could be a dick and say that the stats you provided are for the current school year and not when you attended, could be there were far fewer black students when you attended.

 

But I'm not, because I could really care less.

 

This is coming from a guy who has never presented any statistical evidence to back anything up. EVER. And "black people in the ghetto all own Escalades!!" is not statistical evidence.

 

And you are correct, you could care less. If you cared less than you currently did, you wouldn't come back to try (and fail) to discredit me.

 

[calfoxwc]

This is coming from a guy who has never presented any statistical evidence to back anything up. EVER. And "black people in the ghetto all own Escalades!!" is not statistical evidence.

 

And you are correct, you could care less. If you cared less than you currently did, you wouldn't come back to try (and fail) to discredit me.mz the pussy

*****************************************************

This is coming from a guy who has never presented any statistical evidence to back anything up. EVER.

And you are correct, you could care less. If you cared less than you currently did, you wouldn't come back to try (and fail) to discredit me.

 

The mirror doesn't lie. But Nancy Pelosi does. (mz the pussy's heroine)

 

 

[heckofajobbrownie]

I love how the only black people ever mentioned in here are Farrakhan, Cosby, Chris Rock, Jesse Jackson, and Al Sharpton. Thank God the president is black. Otherwise we could count all the black people we know on one hand.

 

And by "know", I mean "know of."

[calfoxwc]

Of course, Colin Powell has never been mentioned here by anybody, right Heck?

 

WRONG.

 

We'll see if you'd tripped over your self-promoting verbage long enough to admit it.

[Guest mz.]

Do you really need to misquote me to make your point? I make an observation, and you then take the logically fallacy of slippery slope and apply it to my statement. I never said "ALL" black people own Escalades.

 

Never said you said ALL. You misread me. Go back and look.

 

Do you want stats for black on black crime?

 

The number of black people on welfare?

 

The number of black people currently incarcirated?

 

Sure, why not.

 

If you have a point to make, and want to debate these issues, stats never hurt. They support your argument.

 

Don't you think T sounds stupid when he says "all gays rape kids?"

 

I could provide those numbers and you'd still hem and haw around the issue.

 

I think you know that's false, but think whatever you like.

 

[Guest mz.]

You are correct. And I apologize.

[heckofajobbrownie]

I hear ya. That wasn't directed at you specifically, but just something I've picked up after a few years on the board. It's nothing but Jackson and Sharpton, or Farrakhan and Wright, when they're angry. Cosby and Rock when they want to show they're totally not racist.

 

It's "Sure, black people are listless thugs who drain the Treasury, but my wife loves Wayne Brady."

 

 

[Guest Aloysius]

It still doesn't change the fact though there are those in that segment who have serious behavioral issues with integrating into society in the proper manner, and it's those issues that keep racism alive and well. They perpetuate the stereotype.

That's where we disagree. Sure, there are some social and cultural issues that adversely impact members of the black community. But I see that as a problem that is hindering their advancement, not an explanation for why racism persists.

 

And I find it interesting that an explanation for continued racism comes up when discussing African Americans but not other minority groups. I mean, do we say that anti-Semitism persists because of something Jewish folks are doing? Or prejudice against Asians?

 

That's why I see it more as an excuse for irrational racism, not a real cause. Also, the social/cultural issues alone can't explain why African Americans haven't reached economic or social equality, especially when Ta-Nehisi Coates can cite examples like these:

 

In 2001, a researcher sent out black and white job applicants in Milwaukee, randomly assigning them a criminal record. The researcher concluded that a white man with a criminal record had about the same chance of getting a job as a black man without one. Three years later, researchers produced the same results in New York under more-rigorous conditions.

That's just crazy. And not something you can easily explain away as something black people are bringing onto themselves.

 

It's like when he was talking about the young girl that was killed in NC, and he was sitting there feeling anxiety over who committed the crime, and he was fearful that it was a black guy because the type of crime fit the mold for what a black guy would do. And sure enough it was a black guy that did it.

I'm afraid you may be misunderstanding him. He said that was part of a "psychosis" he and other African Americans share, not something that's justified based on the evidence.

 

As a Jewish American, I felt the same type of fear when I first heard that some guy on Wall Street had stolen billions of dollars. Turns out I was right as well, but it doesn't mean that Jews are money-grubbing their way into being discriminated against.

 

The whole Cosby-Coates discussion is one largely contained within the black community. It's not about explaining why racism persists; rather, it's largely premised on the assumption that racism will continue, so a more self-reliant approach is necessary.

 

One of the drawbacks of the approach is that it accepts racism and doesn't recognize the need to challenge injustice. That's one of the main problems Du Bois had with Washington's approach. And considering that Coates puts Cosby in the Washington tradition, it's not surprising that some are conflating that shift away from combating racism with a tacit recognition that African Americans are responsible for its persistence. But I think that's a fundamental misreading of what Cosby's trying to say.

[Westside Steve]

I'm glad you are, but it does matter. It's too much to ask of a 16 year old kid IMO.

 

Then I don't loan a 16 year old kid 50 grand.

 

Should college be free for everyone?

 

WSS

[Spunkonmyback DPOY]

As for this, Inspecta:

 

"If you are black and/or mexican they roll out the red carpet for all types of benefits from the government.

 

If you're white, not so much."

 

Perhaps you'd like to explain how the government benefits Rush noted - unemployment benefits, food stamps, or traditional welfare programs -- are made more available to blacks and Mexicans than they are to white people.

 

I was under the impression that the benefits were made available to all people who qualified, regardless of their race.

 

(Unlike you, I also think it's quite easy to argue Rush's points, because they're beyond ridiculous.

Let's not forget to talk about affirmitive action!