You Decide Week 7

[PoeticG]

We have two options at this point. Kevin Hogan earned his start last week vs. The Texans. We all know what happened. The Browns played like the Browns play. We got holding calls on special teams, we gave up 14 points on blown coverages for huge yards both running and passing, we didn't execute on offense, we lost the game. That is what has happened consistently, regardless of who is playing quarterback for us that given Sunday. I say again, the way Hogan was performing up until that game was admirable. I say he has earned the chance to start a game, at HOME in front of the Dawgpound. let that sink for a moment... we've been through Quarterback Hell, let's know for certain that Hogan IS NOT the guy. He played poorly last week, I give you that. But you have to give up a little ground that it wasn't ALL Hogan. If Hogan plays like last week, back to the bench- bring back Kizer and ride him until the wheels fall off again.

 

Houston went through a Hurricane and often times those city's teams get better through the adversity- they play for something bigger than themselves. Everybody has been praying for Houston... we were just in their way.

But now, against the Titans. It's our turn, we've been through some losses lately. We have to join together, play together and play for something bigger than ourselves. We need to find something better than simply playing 'not to lose', every NFL team goes all out for that one. We need to be great fan, that means finding a way to stop the negativity. Negativity breeds negativity, we have to be better than that. If we can't fix ourselves, how can we ever expect our team to get better. They won't get better until we change the culture. 

 

It should ALWAYS be - WE LOVE YOU ANYWAYS BROWNS!

 

 

[Tour2ma]

When a QB plays that badly, when he fails to display the minimum tools required to play the position, then one game is more than plenty.

Myself, I'd have pulled him at the half.

 

EDIT: Oh... and I'm not psychic, but I said playing Hogan was a waste of time...

Hey... maybe I am psychic!

[PoeticG]

Hogan completed passes to as many as 7 different receivers.

 

Sammy Coates said this-

-----------------------------------

"I just didn't come down hard enough out of the break,'' said Coates. "I feel like I could've given a better effort out of the break and broken it up. The wide receiver always has to finish that play. I blame that 100 percent on me. . . . Kevin did a great job and as a group of wide receivers, we've got to make more plays for him. He was seeing the field well. I take blame for that whole play.''

Hogan, of course, assumed full blame.

"I definitely could've put that ball (to Coates) a little bit more outside, but the guy made a good play,'' Hogan said.

-------------------------------------

[Tour2ma]

Did the seven include Texan DBs?

12 minutes ago, PoeticG said:

"I definitely could've put that ball (to Coates) a little bit more outside, but the guy made a good play,'' Hogan said.

Different pass, but of the out route that ended our first drive when the CB batted it down Hogan could have added, "I also could have an NFL arm and fit the throw in the window that was there."

Po... that pass was right along my sight line. It was a change-up, a lollypop.... it had no chance. Neither does Hogan.

[CaineDeSoulis]

I'd play kessler

[MLD Woody]

You play Kizer the rest of the year

[PoeticG]

Steve Young - First start: Win (19-16, OT) over the Lions in Week 12 of 1985; 16 of 27 (59.3 percent) for 167 yards, zero touchdowns, zero interceptions, six sacks and a passer rating of 77.2; 10 carries for 60 yards.

 

Troy Aikman - First start: Loss (28-0) to the Saints in Week 1 of 1989; 17 of 35 (48.6 percent) for 180 yards, zero touchdowns, two interceptions, two sacks and a passer rating of 40.2.

 

Fran Tarkenton - First start: Loss (21-7) to the Cowboys in Week 2 of 1961; 8 of 24 (33.3 percent) for 117 yards, zero touchdowns, two interceptions, three sacks and a passer rating of 15.5.

 

Alex Smith - First start: Loss (28-3) to the Colts in Week 5 of 2005; 9 of 23 (39.1 percent) for 74 yards, zero touchdowns, four interceptions, five sacks and a passer rating of 8.5. 

 

Peyton Manning - First start: Loss (24-15) to the Dolphins in Week 1 of 1998; 21 of 37 (56.8 percent) for 302 yards, one touchdown, three interceptions, four sacks and a passer rating of 58.6.

 

Andrew Luck - First start: Loss (41-21) to the Bears in Week 1 of 2012; 23 of 45 (51.1 percent) for 309 yards, one touchdown, three interceptions, three sacks and a passer rating of 52.9.

 

John Elway - First start: Win (14-10) over the Steelers in Week 1 of 1983; 1 of 8 (12.5 percent) for 14 yards, zero touchdowns, one interception, four sacks and a passer rating of 0.

Kevin Hogan - First start: Loss (17-33) to the Texans in Week 6 of 2017; 20 of 37 (54.1 percent) for 140 yards, one touchdown, three interceptions, four sacks, 5 carries for 36 yards

 

 

 

 

 

[D Bone]

Going back to Kizer this, and every week after until he's either the guy, or proven not the guy...... We're going to be either 0-16 or 1-15 doing it, but we would be the same with Hogan too. 

This is simply the reality of the way the organization (The Process) has been built. 

[Tour2ma]

14 hours ago, D Bone said:

This is simply the reality of the way the organization (The Process) has been built. 

Might go crazy and win 2... you never know...

Small majority by my reckoning wanted to build around QB first and then draft one. I wasn't among these, but that ship has sailed. Now I see the wisdom in the approach, but what none of us saw... at least none I can remember... is the level of prolonged pain that would come with that approach.

Now seems few... even few of those that embraced the QB-later approach... were prepared for the pain.

Suck it up, buttercups!

[Mr. Make-Believe]

14 hours ago, PoeticG said:

Steve Young - First start: Win (19-16, OT) over the Lions in Week 12 of 1985; 16 of 27 (59.3 percent) for 167 yards, zero touchdowns, zero interceptions, six sacks and a passer rating of 77.2; 10 carries for 60 yards.

 

Troy Aikman - First start: Loss (28-0) to the Saints in Week 1 of 1989; 17 of 35 (48.6 percent) for 180 yards, zero touchdowns, two interceptions, two sacks and a passer rating of 40.2.

 

Fran Tarkenton - First start: Loss (21-7) to the Cowboys in Week 2 of 1961; 8 of 24 (33.3 percent) for 117 yards, zero touchdowns, two interceptions, three sacks and a passer rating of 15.5.

 

Alex Smith - First start: Loss (28-3) to the Colts in Week 5 of 2005; 9 of 23 (39.1 percent) for 74 yards, zero touchdowns, four interceptions, five sacks and a passer rating of 8.5. 

 

Peyton Manning - First start: Loss (24-15) to the Dolphins in Week 1 of 1998; 21 of 37 (56.8 percent) for 302 yards, one touchdown, three interceptions, four sacks and a passer rating of 58.6.

 

Andrew Luck - First start: Loss (41-21) to the Bears in Week 1 of 2012; 23 of 45 (51.1 percent) for 309 yards, one touchdown, three interceptions, three sacks and a passer rating of 52.9.

 

John Elway - First start: Win (14-10) over the Steelers in Week 1 of 1983; 1 of 8 (12.5 percent) for 14 yards, zero touchdowns, one interception, four sacks and a passer rating of 0.

Kevin Hogan - First start: Loss (17-33) to the Texans in Week 6 of 2017; 20 of 37 (54.1 percent) for 140 yards, one touchdown, three interceptions, four sacks, 5 carries for 36 yards

 

 

 

 

 

Wow.  You're right. 

Kevin Hogan is basically Troy Aikman.

[The Gipper]

14 hours ago, PoeticG said:

Steve Young - First start: Win (19-16, OT) over the Lions in Week 12 of 1985; 16 of 27 (59.3 percent) for 167 yards, zero touchdowns, zero interceptions, six sacks and a passer rating of 77.2; 10 carries for 60 yards.

 

Troy Aikman - First start: Loss (28-0) to the Saints in Week 1 of 1989; 17 of 35 (48.6 percent) for 180 yards, zero touchdowns, two interceptions, two sacks and a passer rating of 40.2.

 

Fran Tarkenton - First start: Loss (21-7) to the Cowboys in Week 2 of 1961; 8 of 24 (33.3 percent) for 117 yards, zero touchdowns, two interceptions, three sacks and a passer rating of 15.5.

 

Alex Smith - First start: Loss (28-3) to the Colts in Week 5 of 2005; 9 of 23 (39.1 percent) for 74 yards, zero touchdowns, four interceptions, five sacks and a passer rating of 8.5. 

 

Peyton Manning - First start: Loss (24-15) to the Dolphins in Week 1 of 1998; 21 of 37 (56.8 percent) for 302 yards, one touchdown, three interceptions, four sacks and a passer rating of 58.6.

 

Andrew Luck - First start: Loss (41-21) to the Bears in Week 1 of 2012; 23 of 45 (51.1 percent) for 309 yards, one touchdown, three interceptions, three sacks and a passer rating of 52.9.

 

John Elway - First start: Win (14-10) over the Steelers in Week 1 of 1983; 1 of 8 (12.5 percent) for 14 yards, zero touchdowns, one interception, four sacks and a passer rating of 0.

Kevin Hogan - First start: Loss (17-33) to the Texans in Week 6 of 2017; 20 of 37 (54.1 percent) for 140 yards, one touchdown, three interceptions, four sacks, 5 carries for 36 yards

 

 

 

 

 

Let's see:  John Elway #1 overall pick in the draft.  Andrew Luck #1 overall pick in the draft. Peyton Manning #1 overall pick in the draft. Alex Smith #1 overall pick in the draft. Troy Aikman #1 overall pick in the draft.  Steve Young #1 overall pick in the Supplemental pick.   Fran Tarkenton  #29 overall pick in the draft.  Their talents were apparent coming right out of college.

Kevin Hogan.....was he even drafted? Oh, OK, yes:  #162.

[D Bone]

1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

Might go crazy and win 2... you never know...

Small majority by my reckoning wanted to build around QB first and then draft one. I wasn't among these, but that ship has sailed. Now I see the wisdom in the approach, but what none of us saw... at least none I can remember... is the level of prolonged pain that would come with that approach.

Now seems few... even few of those that embraced the QB-later approach... were prepared for the pain.

Suck it up, buttercups!

I can see the arguments on both sides of the 'Chicken or the Egg' rebuild approaches..... but what I can not see in any way, is a team only being able to win 1 game in 2 years, no matter the approach of the rebuild...... There are absolutely no excuses that anyone can ever give me to make this OK and "just something that goes along with rebuilding".

I'm a simple dude who knows you're peeing on me no matter how many times you tell me it's raining....... 1-31/3-29 simply tells me that The Process is not working in any way. "The defense plays better", "The run game looks a bit better at times", "At least we can stop the run" - are all forms of telling me it's raining........... I simply look at the score board and can easily smell the all too familiar stench of urine. 

"So D, what did you realistically expect these first 2 years then?"

I fully expected us to go around 5-11 last year with a handful of close loses combined with a few blowouts. I expected to see some "Ah Ha" moments where some of our shiny new young dudes stepped up and made some awesome plays, and had great individual games sprinkled in here and there too.

If that ^ would've been the case, then I would've expected us to go 6-10 / 8-8 this year. We supposedly had a "great draft", made some "outstanding FA signings" and hired "A great DC", plus we would now be 2 years into Hue's system...... but of course my year 1 expectations were not met, so I guess this is just useless info. 

So then what did I expect this year knowing what I know about year 1? I fully expected the 5-11 season that I referenced above for all of the same reasons I listed for both years 1 and 2 combined...... I know that can still happen mathematically, but let's just say I'm not going to be picking the Browns in the Survival Challenge game any time soon...... and I'm pretty damn good at that game. 

Now, if anyone tries to tell me, "Hey D, there isn't much difference between a 5 win season and a 0/1 win season, so you just need to be patient and Trust The Process".... just know that I see your pecker hanging out and peeing on me, no matter how many times you bat your eyes while telling me it's raining.  

 

 

 

 

[wargograw]

So you would expected us to win 66% MORE games last year than we had the year before despite the fact we got rid of almost all of our veterans?

 

And for the record, I do remember an 8-8 prediction on your signature prior to last season. If those are your expectations, then you have no one to blame for your disappointment but yourself. 

[D Bone]

6 hours ago, wargograw said:

So you would expected us to win 66% MORE games last year than we had the year before despite the fact we got rid of almost all of our veterans?

 

And for the record, I do remember an 8-8 prediction on your signature prior to last season. If those are your expectations, then you have no one to blame for your disappointment but yourself. 

You're not even flinching at 1-31, and in fact seem to revere it..... I would never want you as a teammate, in any sport, ever...... Losers accept losing.  

[Canton Dawg]

27 minutes ago, D Bone said:

You're not even flinching at 1-31, and in fact seem to revere it..... I would never want you as a teammate, in any sport, ever...... Losers except losing.  

D, your post reminded me of the Vince Lombardi’s infamous quote. . . 

 

[DieHardBrownsFan]

42 minutes ago, D Bone said:

You're not even flinching at 1-31, and in fact seem to revere it..... I would never want you as a teammate, in any sport, ever...... Losers except losing.  

It's the way Millennial's think.

[PoeticG]

Looks like it's Kizer and Kessler - #1 and #2.

That's okay.

I guess Kevin has some bruised up ribs. He toughed it out during the game and put a hell of a gameface on when the trainers were checking it out.

It clearly bothered him a couple of times. We knew he took some good shots... but- he would tough it out. I guess he made a case for himself but in practice he took another shot in the ribs-  'during a run' and he lost the ball... it is what it is. 

I still believe in Hogan. Close the book on Hogan after one bad game- under horrible circumstance... that would be foolish. Kevin Hogan is good QB that had a bad game, he just needs to be patient- he'll have another chance...

 

 

 

 

[wargograw]

5 hours ago, D Bone said:

You're not even flinching at 1-31, and in fact seem to revere it..... I would never want you as a teammate, in any sport, ever...... Losers accept losing.  

We're not 1-31. Losers take a little temporary gain at the sake of championships later. That's what losers do. 

Now answer my question. 

[hoorta]

11 hours ago, wargograw said:

So you would expected us to win 66% MORE games last year than we had the year before despite the fact we got rid of almost all of our veterans?

And for the record, I do remember an 8-8 prediction on your signature prior to last season. If those are your expectations, then you have no one to blame for your disappointment but yourself. 

We had 24 draft picks War. We had TONS of cap room. My expectation was to have us not looking worse than an expansion team this past Sunday. 

11 minutes ago, wargograw said:

We're not 1-31. Losers take a little temporary gain at the sake of championships later. That's what losers do. 

Now answer my question. 

Nope, great franchises don't need to take a temporary gain. Steelers don't. Or hit on two super studs like the Cowboys and go from crap to the playoffs. 

[wargograw]

2 hours ago, hoorta said:

We had 24 draft picks War. We had TONS of cap room. My expectation was to have us not looking worse than an expansion team this past Sunday. 

Nope, great franchises don't need to take a temporary gain. Steelers don't. Or hit on two super studs like the Cowboys and go from crap to the playoffs. 

You're comparing the 2016 Cleveland Browns to the 2015 Cowboys? 

[flyingfooldoug]

I guess I've gone dense. The Browns are just the very best team out there. Just because they can't catch the ball, or throw the ball, or run the ball doesn't mean a thing. Who needs playmakers with this bunch?  I mean we started the season, 3 plays, punt, blocked TD other team. And that was a highlight! Gotta love em. The head coach must be genius in his innovative use of the clock and manpower. I can't wait to see a fake punt without a kicker. 

This team rocks! 

 Nope!  Sad sack bunch of losers is the truth. No stand out talent Winless bunch. Haslam stinks as an owner!

 

[Tour2ma]

Well.. that helps. Thanks for playing our game.

23 hours ago, D Bone said:

I can see the arguments on both sides of the 'Chicken or the Egg' rebuild approaches..... but what I can not see in any way, is a team only being able to win 1 game in 2 years, no matter the approach of the rebuild...... There are absolutely no excuses that anyone can ever give me to make this OK and "just something that goes along with rebuilding".

I'm a simple dude who knows you're peeing on me no matter how many times you tell me it's raining....... 1-31/3-29 simply tells me that The Process is not working in any way. "The defense plays better", "The run game looks a bit better at times", "At least we can stop the run" - are all forms of telling me it's raining........... I simply look at the score board and can easily smell the all too familiar stench of urine. 

"So D, what did you realistically expect these first 2 years then?"

I fully expected us to go around 5-11 last year with a handful of close loses combined with a few blowouts. I expected to see some "Ah Ha" moments where some of our shiny new young dudes stepped up and made some awesome plays, and had great individual games sprinkled in here and there too.

If that ^ would've been the case, then I would've expected us to go 6-10 / 8-8 this year. We supposedly had a "great draft", made some "outstanding FA signings" and hired "A great DC", plus we would now be 2 years into Hue's system...... but of course my year 1 expectations were not met, so I guess this is just useless info. 

So then what did I expect this year knowing what I know about year 1? I fully expected the 5-11 season that I referenced above for all of the same reasons I listed for both years 1 and 2 combined...... I know that can still happen mathematically, but let's just say I'm not going to be picking the Browns in the Survival Challenge game any time soon...... and I'm pretty damn good at that game. 

Now, if anyone tries to tell me, "Hey D, there isn't much difference between a 5 win season and a 0/1 win season, so you just need to be patient and Trust The Process".... just know that I see your pecker hanging out and peeing on me, no matter how many times you bat your eyes while telling me it's raining. 

There with you expected record-wise, but felt we'd have competent QB play. It hasn't materialized to this point, has it?

I mentioned in another thread this AM that there's a difference between success and progress. You and others are looking for the former which is validly based upon a W/L record. A few of us are looking at the latter which requires looking beyond our record. Our take has nothing to do with pissing down your leg...

Last year we bitched about being unable to stop the run and rightfully so as we were 31st in league yielding 143 ypg. This year thru talent addition, scheme change and a DC change we are stopping the run as testified to by our 6th ranked, 84.3 ypg average.

Now? Bitch is up about passing D. In 2016 we allowed a middling, 16th-ranked 226 ypg. In 2017 that average has risen all the way (sarcasm alert!) to a 21st ranked 250 ypg.

That our 2016 passing D numbers were aided by our poor run D is... IMO... indisputable. Defensive stats have a Whack-a-Mole quality to them.

Offensively we've bitched both then and now about an inability to run (or at least try to run). We were 19th in the league averaging 107 ypg. 2017? We are 21st averaging 97 ypg. No progress? Regression? At least the former and possibly the latter given that we are averaging 1.4 more attempts per game this season vs. 2016.

Passing? In 2016 we ended up 28th averaging 204 ypg. In 2017 to date we are 23rd averaging 212 ypg.... which PoG includes a season low 113 yard effort in Week 6 (to pair with our season's 2nd best rushing output of 134 yards). FYI our next lowest passing output was 170 yards. Bottom Line? Progress? I'd argue, yes, due to the rise is more than offset by the decrease in rushing yards. Certainly there is no regression... a common theme around here.... one even I'd accepted before doing the above stat dive.

QB... RB... WR... FS... 2018! Draft... FA... Both... I'm not picky. Address all four and then... and not until then... should we look at success.

16 hours ago, D Bone said:

You're not even flinching at 1-31, and in fact seem to revere it..... I would never want you as a teammate, in any sport, ever...... Losers accept losing.  

Cheap shot... 15 yards. I know I'm flinching... and wincing... at every loss... none more than Week 6 live and in living color where I had a lot of help from Texans fans.

Have to believe war is there with me.

15 hours ago, DieHardBrownsFan said:

It's the way Millennial's think.

I'd love a millennial's joints... at least in my right leg... plus maybe a shoulder or two.

[hoorta]

16 hours ago, PoeticG said:

Looks like it's Kizer and Kessler - #1 and #2.

That's okay.

I guess Kevin has some bruised up ribs. He toughed it out during the game and put a hell of a gameface on when the trainers were checking it out.

It clearly bothered him a couple of times. We knew he took some good shots... but- he would tough it out. I guess he made a case for himself but in practice he took another shot in the ribs-  'during a run' and he lost the ball... it is what it is. 

I still believe in Hogan. Close the book on Hogan after one bad game- under horrible circumstance... that would be foolish. Kevin Hogan is good QB that had a bad game, he just needs to be patient- he'll have another chance...

 

Not anytime soon though PO. I finally got to review the tape. At least in the Texans game he was more inaccurate than Kizer. Was sailing everything high. The second int was a floater. Deep ball accuracy bad, it's what happens when you have to heave it as hard as you can to get that distance.

If Kizer continues to stink, Kessler is going to get his shot on the Browns QB carousel.

[Tour2ma]

11 hours ago, hoorta said:

We had 24 draft picks War. We had TONS of cap room. My expectation was to have us not looking worse than an expansion team this past Sunday. 

Nope, great franchises don't need to take a temporary gain. Steelers don't. Or hit on two super studs like the Cowboys and go from crap to the playoffs. 

First. "cap room" only enters into the equation when you go FA hunting to make that final push. That is what great teams do... spend big to add key pieces to put them over the top. We are not there yet and won't be for at least two and maybe as many as four seasons from now. Also, if you spend up to your cap now, it won't be there when you really need it.

Second, in stating the 'Boys were "crap", you made war's point for him. They did not get into position for at least one of those studs by being continuously great. The 'Boys went 4-12 in 2015.

Steelers? Been a long time since they were a sub-500 team to be sure, but having Ben in hand they've been a sustainer for a very long time. And they have been quite adept at it almost exclusively thru the Draft adding a Bell in R2 and Brown in R6 not too mention a few Buckeyes. But it's not as if every pick they touch turns to gold.

Do you remember...

• Alameda Ta'amu? R4
• Dri Archer? R3
• Sammie Coates? R3 (threw in a gimmie)
• How about Senquez Golson? R2

And if you peruse their drafts you'll see a lot of names you know now that you did not know their first couple years in the league. Names like Chikillo...

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/draft.htm

They raise their own. Does that approach sound familiar?