The... I am batting (maybe alone) for the front office thread

[hoorta]

15 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Well, it may not be the method per se.....but it is certainly the execution of the method. 

You can input all the analytics you want into this situation.    YOu still have to evaluate and pick proper talent after you have applied the analytics.  And this group wouldn't know talent if it came up and gave them a forearm shiver.

^^^Garrett was a no brainer. +1. 

8 hours ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

Holmgren (30+ years NFL experience) - 5-11, 4-12, 5-11

Lombardi (30 years NFL experience)  - 4-12

Farmer (former player, 10 years NFL experience) - 7-9, 3-13

Yeah, having a "football guy in charge" really made a ton of difference...

I swear to God, you guys are dumb as hell.

That failed TC, so we put a lawyer and a baseball guy in charge- BRILLIANT!!!   If that doesn't work try the NHL (or NBA) next for talent evaluators.... 5-11 this year is a pipe dream,  if that comes to pass I'll damn near be dancing in the street I'll be so happy.  

5 hours ago, D Bone said:

The younger the fan, the more patience they have......... I remember going to bed the night of January 11, 1987 and thinking "Well, today really sucked, but by the time I'm my dad's age, the Browns will have a couple of Super Bowl wins".

I am now approaching my Dad's age at that time - 50 in three weeks, and now honestly wonder if I will ever see another Browns playoff game again...... and I'm not trying to be funny either, as I seriously don't know if I will ever see one before my lights go out.

I get that the younger dudes are more "wait until next year, and you'll see" - hell, I was there too.............. but, be careful what you wish for, as 'next year' never comes and in the blink of an eye, you're past the 1/2 way point of your time on this planet. 

Exactly- and I predate 1964. I'm running out of "next years"-fast. I mean like how totally disgusting is it to see- teams like the Panthers make the SB, go into the pits, retool and get there again while the Browns continue to suck, and suck bad is a testament it's not impossible to turn a franchise around in less than-what is it now going on 20 years?  The millenials have no F**cking clue on what it was like to have a team that was in playoff contention every year. To their credit, they've stuck with this doo-doo show longer than would reasonably been expected. Us oldsters know this is a bad, bad team. Hell, the 1999 and few years after expansions Browns didn't look this lousy, and the dysfunctionality of the entire organization at this point is truly breathtaking. 

[hoorta]

Just now, wargograw said:

People really value their 4 wins around here. It's astonishing. I've even caught people saying outright that they'd take 4 wins a year over the potential wins of this FO. Really weird.

 

LALALALA potential doesn't mean crap War. I value 4 wins over ZERO got it? that's the damn object of the game. If this was like European soccer, the Browns would get relegated to the minor league. 

"The Process" is going to get tweaked- you know the buzzword is continual process improvement- and there's a hell of a lot at this point that needs improving. 

[stillmotion]

1 hour ago, hoorta said:

Exactly- and I predate 1964. I'm running out of "next years"-fast. I mean like how totally disgusting is it to see- teams like the Panthers make the SB, go into the pits, retool and get there again while the Browns continue to suck, and suck bad is a testament it's not impossible to turn a franchise around in less than-what is it now going on 20 years?  The millenials have no F**cking clue on what it was like to have a team that was in playoff contention every year. To their credit, they've stuck with this doo-doo show longer than would reasonably been expected. Us oldsters know this is a bad, bad team. Hell, the 1999 and few years after expansions Browns didn't look this lousy, and the dysfunctionality of the entire organization at this point is truly breathtaking. 

How many years must we wait? It's one thing to be impatient, and another to see lack of progress. Literally chickens could make better draft picks, it's been proven. They've done a great job at saving Jimmy money, and a shitty job of producing an NFL offense. I get it's a "process", but how about the FO addressing us fans this bye week and explaining the plan. Are we getting a quarterback? Or are they going to sign Charlie Whitehurst for next season and draft a one armed sleeper quarterback in the 7th round.

/// also

on moneyball and DePo - the year after leading the Dodgers to their first playoff win in 16 years, he was fired after the 2005 club finished with its worst record in 11 years.

I have friends in LA that told me they cheered when Depo was fired from the Dodgers, and that moneyball was cowpoop. What's next? Jimmy hires a milkman and a bar maid to run the front office?

I may not be the best at math, and jimmy might know how to run a business, but he has no clue about an NFL franchise. I wonder what he was promised with this F.O. , what was delivered, and if Hue and Sashi/Depo even see eye to eye about things.

[LogicIsForSquares]

6 hours ago, wargograw said:

When exactly did the Texans do this? If you're referring to now, well they've had a pretty decent team since about 2010. If you're going to count 2013 as some kind of "hole" that they got out of then you have no interest in actual analysis here. 

The Saints have been mediocre for years. Not great but not terrible. Yeah they're really good this year. When was this hole though?

The Bucs built the team before Winston got there.

War, you are showing your age.

Think further back. The Bucs and Saints were absolute jokes for years. They both built teams using traditional methods and won championships. The Texans were hot garbage their first 7-8 years or so. 

None of them salted the Earth and then tried to rebuild.

[Buckigeorge]

12 hours ago, D Bone said:

The younger the fan, the more patience they have......... I remember going to bed the night of January 11, 1987 and thinking "Well, today really sucked, but by the time I'm my dad's age, the Browns will have a couple of Super Bowl wins".

I am now approaching my Dad's age at that time - 50 in three weeks, and now honestly wonder if I will ever see another Browns playoff game again...... and I'm not trying to be funny either, as I seriously don't know if I will ever see one before my lights go out.

I get that the younger dudes are more "wait until next year, and you'll see" - hell, I was there too.............. but, be careful what you wish for, as 'next year' never comes and in the blink of an eye, you're past the 1/2 way point of your time on this planet. 

 

I'm with you D Bone (one year younger). My dad is gone now and I know he thought he would see at least one Super Bowl (back in 1987). I'm not sure we will get to see one. Now I see how well they handled the McCarron trade and am convinced that they are complete idiots. We are never going to win with the people that we have evaluating talent.  

[nickers]

It's hilarious... These millenials just don't get what its like around here during playoff time when the browns are involved...I'm sick of waiting....

[The Gipper]

36 minutes ago, nickers said:

It's hilarious... These millenials just don't get what its like around here during playoff time when the browns are involved...I'm sick of waiting....

I went through my entire adolescence and beyond with the Browns being in the playoffs.

From the time I was 12 until I was 20 the Browns only missed the playoff 2 years.....and were in it 7 times.   And this was before the expanded playoff system.

And then in the decade when I was between 28-38, they were in the playoffs again for like 7 out of those 10 years. 

But they have only been it the playoff twice since 1989.....

So, it seems to me that yes, practically 2 generations of Browns fans have gone without having the Browns be a decent, playoff team.

But I certainly remember how crazy it was...and how it could be the same again.

[nickers]

1 hour ago, The Gipper said:

I went through my entire adolescence and beyond with the Browns being in the playoffs.

From the time I was 12 until I was 20 the Browns only missed the playoff 2 years.....and were in it 7 times.   And this was before the expanded playoff system.

And then in the decade when I was between 28-38, they were in the playoffs again for like 7 out of those 10 years. 

But they have only been it the playoff twice since 1989.....

So, it seems to me that yes, practically 2 generations of Browns fans have gone without having the Browns be a decent, playoff team.

But I certainly remember how crazy it was...and how it could be the same again.

Gip.. Those two seasons the Browns made the playoffs.. At least to me felt like frauds.. Especially Butch Davis's squad...

[Mark O]

5 minutes ago, nickers said:

Gip.. Those two seasons the Browns made the playoffs.. At least to me felt like frauds.. Especially Butch Davis's squad...

 

The 1994 team was legit...built from the ground up and even won a playoff game and was going to be a contender for awhile if not for the move.   Butchs' team was pretty good too.   Only a Dennis Dropcutt butterfingers moment away from beating the squeelers in Pittsburgh.

[hoorta]

6 hours ago, LogicIsForSquares said:

War, you are showing your age.

Think further back. The Bucs and Saints were absolute jokes for years. They both built teams using traditional methods and won championships. The Texans were hot garbage their first 7-8 years or so. 

None of them salted the Earth and then tried to rebuild.

Exactly the 'Aints (as their fans called them at the time) started the tradition of wearing paper bags on their heads to games. FWIW- looked it up, the Saints first season was 1967. (also the first year of the SB, though it wasn't called that then) They won the Super Bowl in 2009. The Browns as well as the Lions are the only two remaining "old" teams that have never been. & at the rate of progress we're currently seeing- our first visit to the promised land isn't coming anytime soon. 

IT'S ABOUT FREAKING TIME ALREADY!!!! 

[Clevfan4life]

How some of you can look at a defense that is finally building something after years of being in the bottom 5, after only one year of our current DC, and say this isnt moving fast enough for me blah blah. This is why we cant have nice things. 

Ur impatience ensures the rebuild bever happens. Pgh thanks u all, the browns remain 2 easy wins on the schedule

[Mark O]

20 minutes ago, Clevfan4life said:

How some of you can look at a defense that is finally building something after years of being in the bottom 5, after only one year of our current DC, and say this isnt moving fast enough for me blah blah. This is why we cant have nice things. 

Ur impatience ensures the rebuild bever happens. Pgh thanks u all, the browns remain 2 easy wins on the schedule

Because this team hasn't been relevant in a decade.   Just one shit show after another.   I'm happy you're excited our 0-8 defense has nice rankings.   Those of us who have been fans for a long time (40+ years in my case) are tired of waiting around when teams go from the dumpster to contenders in just a couple years.    Speaking for myself...the last few years have finally broken me as a fan.   I still watch and want them to win every week, but the days of me caring or getting even remotely upset are long gone.   It will take a lot of good play on the field to get me to care about this shit sandwich of a franchise like I used to.

[LogicIsForSquares]

19 minutes ago, Clevfan4life said:

How some of you can look at a defense that is finally building something after years of being in the bottom 5, after only one year of our current DC, and say this isnt moving fast enough for me blah blah. This is why we cant have nice things. 

Ur impatience ensures the rebuild bever happens. Pgh thanks u all, the browns remain 2 easy wins on the schedule

I believe everyone has acknowledged improvement on the defense. The problem is the offense is horrendous and the front office is ran by a gaggle of autistic kids.

[hoorta]

6 minutes ago, Mark O said:

Because this team hasn't been relevant in a decade.   Just one Sheet show after another.   I'm happy you're excited our 0-8 defense has nice rankings.   Those of us who have been fans for a long time (40+ years in my case) are tired of waiting around when teams go from the dumpster to contenders in just a couple years.    Speaking for myself...the last few years have finally broken me as a fan.   I still watch and want them to win every week, but the days of me caring or getting even remotely upset are long gone.   It will take a lot of good play on the field to get me to care about this Sheet sandwich of a franchise like I used to.

You're speaking for me also Mark, and I go back all the way to the days of Jim Brown. The Titans disaster that I drove 200 miles to see finally did it. I've always said I'd burn my season tickets rather than sell them to a fan of another team- but I finally got so fed up I told my lifelong pal Don (who's the ticket holder of record) screw it- dump those seats for whatever you can get, I'm not wasting my time anymore this season going to games. Our 20 yard line lower deck netted us 40 cents on a dollar. It's not just me that got worn out spending 24 hours of my weekend and six hours of driving up for the games, Don only has a 12 mile drive from Independence to the stadium, and he's not bothering going either. 

Canton Mike is boycotting too, and I hope Jimmy looks at a half empty stadium that's filled mostly with fans from the other team to realize- your team has essentially become unwatchable. 

And to those that say there's bight spots- sure there are. It's like way back in my Grandpa's day before they starting using chlorine at the sewage station. Seeing a tomato plant growing in a pile of crap, and saying- wow, ain't that pretty!!!!!  

[Mark O]

8 minutes ago, hoorta said:

You're speaking for me also Mark, and I go back all the way to the days of Jim Brown. The Titans disaster that I drove 200 miles to see finally did it. I've always said I'd burn my season tickets rather than sell them to a fan of another team- but I finally got so fed up I told my lifelong pal Don (who's the ticket holder of record) screw it- dump those seats for whatever you can get, I'm not wasting my time anymore this season going to games. Our 20 yard line lower deck netted us 40 cents on a dollar. It's not just me that got worn out spending 24 hours of my weekend and six hours of driving up for the games, Don only has a 12 mile drive from Independence to the stadium, and he's not bothering going either. 

 

I'd have a hard time going if i lived back there, even if I had tickets.  I've turned down free tickets to watch them play the Chargers, I'd rather stay home so I can watch the other games at the same time and not be stuck with the Browns.  

Next year's trip to Cleveland is all about going to see OSU play for me.  I've never seen the Buckeyes play in person, so I'm coming back for an early season game where I can get tickets without needing a 2nd mortgage on my house.  If the Browns are home the same weekend as the OSU game that works best for me, I'll go see them play too, otherwise, I'll just come back to see OSU play.

[The Gipper]

4 hours ago, nickers said:

Gip.. Those two seasons the Browns made the playoffs.. At least to me felt like frauds.. Especially Butch Davis's squad...

I didn't think that. In fact, they damn well should have won that playoff game if you recall.  They had it won until...in typical Browns fashion, they took whatever steps were necessary to lose a game.

[Tour2ma]

On October 30, 2017 at 10:33 PM, LondonBrown said:

I will start this by saying that I still completely do, 100%, agree with the current front office approach to changing the Browns. I know that’s an unpopular opinion and I know that lots here will either stop reading through disillusion or plain anger, but it is how I feel.

I'm with you LB...

[nickers]

22 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

I didn't think that. In fact, they damn well should have won that playoff game if you recall.  They had it won until...in typical Browns fashion, they took whatever steps were necessary to lose a game.

I think we may have cornered the market in that regard.. This Team/franchise and city are on thin ice.. or about as close to thin ice as one gets... Whatever is coming after this cluster phuck of a regime may be the last ...  The next FO/HC will almost certainly be expected to show something marked in improvement  right away.

[wargograw]

23 hours ago, hoorta said:

LALALALA potential doesn't mean crap War. I value 4 wins over ZERO got it? that's the damn object of the game. If this was like European soccer, the Browns would get relegated to the minor league. 

"The Process" is going to get tweaked- you know the buzzword is continual process improvement- and there's a hell of a lot at this point that needs improving. 

No, you value 4 wins every season until you die instead of the possibility of this build working out and us winning a Super Bowl. That's what you value. 

17 hours ago, LogicIsForSquares said:

War, you are showing your age.

Think further back. The Bucs and Saints were absolute jokes for years. They both built teams using traditional methods and won championships. The Texans were hot garbage their first 7-8 years or so. 

None of them salted the Earth and then tried to rebuild.

The Texans have had a whopping 4 coaches in their 16 seasons and the same GM for over 10 years. Terrible example.

14 hours ago, nickers said:

It's hilarious... These millenials just don't get what its like around here during playoff time when the browns are involved...I'm sick of waiting....

Well get used to it, because scrapping this regime will just add another two years (minimum) to it.

10 hours ago, Clevfan4life said:

How some of you can look at a defense that is finally building something after years of being in the bottom 5, after only one year of our current DC, and say this isnt moving fast enough for me blah blah. This is why we cant have nice things. 

Ur impatience ensures the rebuild bever happens. Pgh thanks u all, the browns remain 2 easy wins on the schedule

You're spot on, though you don't help your cause posting all the negativity you have been. 

9 hours ago, LogicIsForSquares said:

I believe everyone has acknowledged improvement on the defense. The problem is the offense is horrendous and the front office is ran by a gaggle of autistic kids.

And yet they put the players on the defense necessary for the improvement to occur. You don't know what you're talking about.

[stillmotion]

1 hour ago, wargograw said:

No, you value 4 wins every season until you die instead of the possibility of this build working out and us winning a Super Bowl. That's what you value. 

18 hours ago, LogicIsForSquares said:

I just haven't seen progress war. We all expected a few wins and a better team this year. We expected fire, and now the Front office and Coaches are fighting. One of them will be fired, and if Hue is fired, how are you sure it's possible another random coach would lead us to a superbowl with a lawyer and baseball statistician's plan?

[flyingfooldoug]

5 hours ago, stillmotion said:

I just haven't seen progress war. We all expected a few wins and a better team this year. We expected fire, and now the Front office and Coaches are fighting. One of them will be fired, and if Hue is fired, how are you sure it's possible another random coach would lead us to a superbowl with a lawyer and baseball statistician's plan?

Kinda like putting a lumberjack in the left chair of a 747. Probably won't end well.

[LogicIsForSquares]

7 hours ago, wargograw said:

And yet they put the players on the defense necessary for the improvement to occur. You don't know what you're talking about.

Williams has way more to do with it than this FO. And they also stocked the offense....or rather didn't stock the offense after many swings. 

I see you avoided the Saints and Bucs but that doesn't fit the narrative. But by all means keep tooting the horn of the front office and head coach that are taking the Browns to all new territory. It might be "worst team of all time" territory but it is new so it is cool!

[LogicIsForSquares]

6 hours ago, stillmotion said:

I just haven't seen progress war. We all expected a few wins and a better team this year. We expected fire, and now the Front office and Coaches are fighting. One of them will be fired, and if Hue is fired, how are you sure it's possible another random coach would lead us to a superbowl with a lawyer and baseball statistician's plan?

Progress is losing games on a historic level. You just need to think outside of the box.

[TexasAg1969]

On 11/1/2017 at 12:20 AM, hoorta said:

LALALALA potential doesn't mean crap War. I value 4 wins over ZERO got it? that's the damn object of the game. If this was like European soccer, the Browns would get relegated to the minor league. 

"The Process" is going to get tweaked- you know the buzzword is continual process improvement- and there's a hell of a lot at this point that needs improving. 

Rebuilds! Overhauls! Whatever terms you want to use are always very painful. Just ask the 3 straight 100 loss season Astros fans how painful that is for a franchise that just never seemed to be able to put it all together. It's hard to remain on course when it appears the ship is permanently anchored in Davy Jones' Locker. No one likes it and it is very hard to believe it can look any different from what it looks like right now. And I will admit that some days I want to fire them all and other days I want this to play out over the 3-5 years I thought it would take once the Browns committed to it. It's just hard when it's on the very bottom of a rebuild. But then I take hope from the fact that a player like Verlander is dropped into an organization that had totally rebuilt and needed one last key player to make it through. I don't care if it's baseball and not football, the process of rebuild is the same. And it's always very ugly and seemingly hopeless at the start.

On this one I side with LB, War and Tour plus anyone else I just failed to notice. Just got to keep after it and pray it works like we want it to.

[wargograw]

9 hours ago, stillmotion said:

I just haven't seen progress war. We all expected a few wins and a better team this year. We expected fire, and now the Front office and Coaches are fighting. One of them will be fired, and if Hue is fired, how are you sure it's possible another random coach would lead us to a superbowl with a lawyer and baseball statistician's plan?

Your question doesn’t make sense. 

3 hours ago, LogicIsForSquares said:

Williams has way more to do with it than this FO. And they also stocked the offense....or rather didn't stock the offense after many swings. 

I see you avoided the Saints and Bucs but that doesn't fit the narrative. But by all means keep tooting the horn of the front office and head coach that are taking the Browns to all new territory. It might be "worst team of all time" territory but it is new so it is cool!

It’s part Williams and part FO. No coach does anything without talent, and they will tell you that themselves.

Well you’re 0 for 1 (and embarrassingly so) on examples I looked into. I’m not sure you want me looking into the others. 

The offensive line is sick. The rest of the offense will be taken care of next draft. Unless we go your way and scrap everyone and delay building another two years. But hey at least we’ll get our precious four wins a year baby!! That’s just the garden of eden to folks like you. 

[Unsympathetic]

9 hours ago, stillmotion said:

We all expected a few wins

You and some others did.  Not me, and not all of us.  Stop running games of projection - you're not hot enough for anyone to put up with that nonsense.

9 hours ago, stillmotion said:

I just haven't seen progress 

Your assumptions aren't anyone else's responsibility.  First, define "progress" [and have the self-awareness and rigor to actually stick to it] using external measurables and not feelings housed only within your head.  As currently phrased, there's enough wiggle room to deliberately change your definition and therefore never attain that progress no matter what.  Hell, even here in NE there's plenty of issues for the call-in ESPN AM radio guys.

Second, despite your complaining, we're still first in YPA in defensive rushing and 16th in YPA offensive rushing... both are better than last year.

Are we there yet? No. Is there no progress? Nope.

Yesterday was NOT a disaster..... the disaster would have been if the McCarron trade went through.

[hoorta]

3 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

Rebuilds! Overhauls! Whatever terms you want to use are always very painful. Just ask the 3 straight 100 loss season Astros fans how painful that is for a franchise that just never seemed to be able to put it all together. It's hard to remain on course when it appears the ship is permanently anchored in Davy Jones' Locker. No one likes it and it is very hard to believe it can look any different from what it looks like right now. And I will admit that some days I want to fire them all and other days I want this to play out over the 3-5 years I thought it would take once the Browns committed to it. It's just hard when it's on the very bottom of a rebuild. But then I take hope from the fact that a player like Verlander is dropped into an organization that had totally rebuilt and needed one last key player to make it through. I don't care if it's baseball and not football, the process of rebuild is the same. And it's always very ugly and seemingly hopeless at the start.

On this one I side with LB, War and Tour plus anyone else I just failed to notice. Just got to keep after it and pray it works like we want it to.

If the reports Dee (who's the real major domo) just went nuclear on the FO, not sure if the process will survive as constituted. Hue wanted Garropolo, and Sashi tells him to suck it up with Kizer? Not good. If what Tour's positing is true, then one nay in the consensus has torpedoed several- that at least on the surface would have been good moves. 

At some point, the FO has to stop passing up available talent to acquire future draft picks. Getting Garropolo for a second round pick and say our extra sixth would have been a good start. MHO. Some have posited- and I tend to agree, Sashi and DePo (over Hue's protestations) are hellbent on throwing this season in the toilet to get the #1 overall again in 2018.

[Unsympathetic]

Why is that [rejecting the non-improvement named McCarron] not good?

Zero to be gained by pissing draft picks into the wind if the "available talent" is a questionable application of the word "talent".  I do not ASSUME wins will magically arrive just because a guy whose wife is a model is taking the snaps.

The optics and reality of the entire org is WORSE when the draft picks are spent and the wins still don't come.

[stillmotion]

2 hours ago, Unsympathetic said:

You and some others did.  Not me, and not all of us.  Stop running games of projection - you're not hot enough for anyone to put up with that nonsense.

11 hours ago, stillmotion said:

You didn't expect any wins? And fighting between the coaching staff and Front Office is hardly making progress

[Unsympathetic]

3 minutes ago, stillmotion said:

You didn't expect any wins? And fighting between the coaching staff and Front Office is hardly making progress

No. Why would I? They had to burn it to the ground to put actual talent in starting positions.

News flash: Fighting between coaching and FO is going to happen in every org. Get over it. Ordinary misery is actually a good thing, snowflake.

The only difference between this operation and KC or NE is that..... you simply don't hear about the disagreement within other places.